When Mythic gives better rewards for RvR and motivate people to do RvR (gear, gold, renown, XP, buffs etc.) no other game will be comparable to WAR in terms of PvP/RvR fun. I am that certain.
Unfortunately that will be too late I fear. Mythic had a shot of getting a jump on Blizzard before WoTLK came out and it couldn't capitalize on it. Now that WoTLK is out and Mythic hasn't gotten a strong foothold yet, they won't have the numbers to get people to jump to their game. Oh it will hover around where it's at now I think and it may even grow a bit over time, but it's never going to be the competitor to WoW that many thought it would be.
so what you're saying is they have got rid of que'd battlegrounds, only to make open world battlegrounds, if it's one simple zone, it's the same thing without a wait.
very innovative.. not.. all they did was offer rewards for something that did not have rewards. it should have been there at launch, don't try and trick people into thinking blizzard actually knows what they are doing lol.
Millions of people seem to think so I'd say blizzard are doing a very good job at making money. Isnt that what a successful business does?
Obviously not. Just look at Darkfall. Best MMO on the market, and they haven't made a dime! You really need a better meter for success, yours is broken.
Your telling me that Blizzards World of Warcraft isnt a success? Darkfall isnt even on the market yet. I think its you sir who needs a better meter of success
Obviously not. Just look at Darkfall. Best vaporware on the market, and they haven't made a dime! You really need a better meter for success, yours is broken.
Originally posted by blondeh Your telling me that Blizzards World of Warcraft isnt a success? Darkfall isnt even on the market yet. I think its you sir who needs a better meter of success
Pfft ... have you not seen the kind of recent videos! Don't forget player reviews!
Def DF > RF Online.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Originally posted by blondeh Your telling me that Blizzards World of Warcraft isnt a success? Darkfall isnt even on the market yet. I think its you sir who needs a better meter of success
Pfft ... have you not seen the kind of recent videos! Don't forget player reviews!
Def DF > RF Online.
Ha ha.. Yeh ive read the reviews and seen the videos it looks...........erm... looks like a game that might make a profit if it attracts a good amount of people. (If in fact it is actually released)
I love the idea of the game but unfrotunatly Ive grown up a little since my SWG pre-cu days. Too many RL responsbilities now like looking after a family. Id never have the time to play a game that deep and sandboxy
Had my first win today in Lake Winter (after a few losses the previous days ). Achievement on lvl 75 (normally you need to be 77-80).
Honor was 2100 something. As a corporal made 3 catapults with firebreath and cannonballs, was just promoted to lieutenant and on my way to the workplace for an assault tank, when the besieged Keep fell. Had a little party invited and I estimated a total of 50 players on the Alliance side, the Hordes were of course with MUCH more . Already a lot of 80's there now and of course some "normal" people in their mid 70's. No lag at all.
The castle fell although only 4 walls were breached (out of a possible 18). The trick was to concentrate on the center and roll up wall after wall while having diversion attacks on the flanks.
Duration : 40 minutes. Haven't seen any planes yet.
I have only ONE thing to say in regards to this thread:
DRIVING tanks and seige weapons of all sorts (some that you can even have a few players at a TIME in - especially good to add a mage or lock rapid firing spells in with you), and flying bombers YOURSELF (with full control) trumps like MAD the lame clicking on the groud to "control" a catapult, spill hot oil, etc. BS that Warhammer had. No comparison....at all.
The people talkin' trash about WoW's new PvP, have obviously never PLAYED it. They're trying to judge from past battlegrounds, arena, etc., and haven't even tried the new style of WoW PvP addiction....lol. This is NOT like the old BGs, and is NOTHING like arena. It feels like a war, and we've learned to HATE the other side of the server for four years now, so there is plenty of vehemence behind it. It's electrically charged all out warfare and it's IMMENSELY FUN!
I'm EVER so glad that I made the decision to continue with WoW.
so what you're saying is they have got rid of que'd battlegrounds, only to make open world battlegrounds, if it's one simple zone, it's the same thing without a wait.
very innovative.. not.. all they did was offer rewards for something that did not have rewards. it should have been there at launch, don't try and trick people into thinking blizzard actually knows what they are doing lol.
Millions of people seem to think so I'd say blizzard are doing a very good job at making money. Isnt that what a successful business does?
Obviously not. Just look at Darkfall. Best MMO on the market, and they haven't made a dime! You really need a better meter for success, yours is broken.
Your telling me that Blizzards World of Warcraft isnt a success? Darkfall isnt even on the market yet. I think its you sir who needs a better meter of success
You're telling me that just because Blizzard released World of Warcraft 4 years ago they deserve acclaim? What sort of an arbitrary standard is that? You have to release a video game to make a great video game?
Sometimes I despair at the WoW fanboys who think that just because a game isn't on the market yet it automatically means that it's not more successful than WoW. Darkfall has seven years of successful development history, Blizzard was still nattering about some RTS game back when Darkfall was announced. It's clear which one is the industry giant.
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
Unfortunately that will be too late I fear. Mythic had a shot of getting a jump on Blizzard before WoTLK came out and it couldn't capitalize on it. Now that WoTLK is out and Mythic hasn't gotten a strong foothold yet, they won't have the numbers to get people to jump to their game. Oh it will hover around where it's at now I think and it may even grow a bit over time, but it's never going to be the competitor to WoW that many thought it would be. Just my opinion. I could be wrong.
Warhammer can not compete to the monster that is WoW. It was never intended to compete with WoW in the first place. WAR is an RvR game, 75% of the players are raiders/PvErs. WoW will appeal to them more.
WAR just wants to be the best RvR/PvP game out there. OpenWorld PvP is not that good in WAR. It's the realm vs. realm, being and supporting your realm in every occasion that matters.
WAR is already a very successful game. You don't need 4.5 m NA+Europe plus 6.5m Asian players to be successful. You might just make profits with 1/10 of that number and people playing your game might enjoy what you offer.
----------------------------- Osbourne Cox: You are the guy from the gym.
Ted Treffon: I don't represent Hardbodies.
Osbourne Cox: I know very well what you represent. You represent the idiocy of today.
Ted Treffon: No, I don't represent that either.
Osbourne Cox: You are part of a league of morons. Oh, yes. You see you're one of the morons I've been fighting my whole life. But guess what. Today, I win.
I have only ONE thing to say in regards to this thread:
DRIVING tanks and seige weapons of all sorts (some that you can even have a few players at a TIME in - especially good to add a mage or lock rapid firing spells in with you), and flying bombers YOURSELF (with full control) trumps like MAD the lame clicking on the groud to "control" a catapult, spill hot oil, etc. BS that Warhammer had. No comparison....at all. The people talkin' trash about WoW's new PvP, have obviously never PLAYED it. They're trying to judge from past battlegrounds, arena, etc., and haven't even tried the new style of WoW PvP addiction....lol. This is NOT like the old BGs, and is NOTHING like arena. It feels like a war, and we've learned to HATE the other side of the server for four years now, so there is plenty of vehemence behind it. It's electrically charged all out warfare and it's IMMENSELY FUN! I'm EVER so glad that I made the decision to continue with WoW.
Like you say no comparison at all. Simply put: this is never seen in fantasy MMORPG land, where every other avatar moves as if he has a stick in his ass.
I don't think Xtort can even imagine what it's like.
The strategy of assault is free because BOTH the attackers and defenders have tanks and a LOT of other Siege equipment they need to build.
After a heavy fight the City Castle looks like a WW2 assaulted city. Wrecks, debris and smoke everywhere. It blows in dynamic fights - litterarely - the competition out of the water
In seeing this I am VERY curious what Blizzard is going to do in their next MMO. If you can do that with a rather fixed and 4 year old Wow, imagine what they will introduce in their next MMO.
For those Wow haters wanting Lake Wintergrasp to fail.... Though luck; the genious gurus of Blizzard found a way to make the open world PvP of Lake W for ever to last in attracting players at maximum level.
Please explain how Lake Wintergrasp is "open world PVP."
It's like AV but you're not in an instance. That isn't open world PVP.
Please explain how Lake Wintergrasp is "open world PVP." It's like AV but you're not in an instance. That isn't open world PVP.
As Lake Wintergrasp is no instance, it's in the open world of Wow.
Simple isn't it.
You can go over there and particiapte. PvP is automatically on, you can't hide. Flight paths. Vendors. Professions can be leveled. Gathering mats.
it's about time you play it before giving "vomments"
I'm still just hitting 70... but they have an area with perpetual Open PvP?
like this:
I imagine you are not restricted to killing players in a zone inside a little area like it is above... well... unless you are not on an Open RvR server in WAR...
Still, it is a step in the right direction... and I hope their NEXT MMO features more things like this.
Please explain how Lake Wintergrasp is "open world PVP." It's like AV but you're not in an instance. That isn't open world PVP.
As Lake Wintergrasp is no instance, it's in the open world of Wow.
Simple isn't it.
You can go over there and particiapte. PvP is automatically on, you can't hide. Flight paths. Vendors. Professions can be leveled. Gathering mats.
it's about time you play it before giving "vomments"
I'm still just hitting 70... but they have an area with perpetual Open PvP?
like this:
I imagine you are not restricted to killing players in a zone inside a little area like it is above... well... unless you are not on an Open RvR server in WAR...
Still, it is a step in the right direction... and I hope their NEXT MMO features more things like this.
Well to have an idea:
The fortress of Lake Wintergrasp alone is almost as big as the complete Warson Gulch BG.. The complete Zone is huge and compares (Blizzard says) to the size of Westfall.
Wow has no RvR but the new PvP mechanics themselves are unmatched in any fantasy MMORPG on the market. Imagine the differences with the elemental PvP of a few years back.
Tank vs tank battles, Infantry must be taken out with flamethrowers, Artillery batter everything else. And all this in a moving tense combat system, which just begs for different tactics because defenders and attackers have both moving siege systems.
All this with the usual fluid Wow controls and tight fighting mechanics we all know. No discussion, this is far above the usual clunky movement we see in those other MMO's.
I agree the next MMO from Blizz could be a complete industry killer. The gap with the newer MMO's is staggering... and this is just an expansion on a ... 4 year old game. Imagine what they can do with a new lore.
Warhammer can not compete to the monster that is WoW. It was never intended to compete with WoW in the first place. WAR is an RvR game, 75% of the players are raiders/PvErs. WoW will appeal to them more. WAR just wants to be the best RvR/PvP game out there. OpenWorld PvP is not that good in WAR. It's the realm vs. realm, being and supporting your realm in every occasion that matters. WAR is already a very successful game. You don't need 4.5 m NA+Europe plus 6.5m Asian players to be successful. You might just make profits with 1/10 of that number and people playing your game might enjoy what you offer.
I recall the Mythic guys in an interview saying they think Warhammer will have between 2-3 million subscribers in time. Yes Warhammer was very much intended as a competitor to WoW and frankly every other fantasy MMO. Mark and Paul were just not stupid enough to come right out and say it after how badly it bit Funcom in the ass.
Warhammer had a successful launch, but it doesn't look like they can hold onto that success at the current rate of things. Time will tell, but they might not be able to hit their own success mark of 500k subscribers and I it is very plausable they could dip below the 250k break even mark. Those are the subscriber benchmarks as stated by Mythic, not me.
I'm still not sold on Wintersgrasp yet since I have not caught a battle. It looks like a step in the right direction and there are some nice PvP changes in the game which is cool by me. I don't need war to be everywhere to have a good time. Just so that I can go somewhere and find war is good enough.
WOW...pfft!!!....Wotlk..big Pfffffft!!!!....Just like BC...haruuumpphhh!!!...nothing new. Same old same old...everything that was in WOW...BC...or Wotlk ....that wasn't there..should be there already. Everything that is missing from WOW or any expansion (or any other mmo or expansion)...whether it has even been thought of yet...should have been there at launch....with better photo-realistic graphics...pure-orgasmic sound quality..and completely bug-free..no bugs ever..and...and....my computer should spit out $100 bills for every hour...no...every minute I play....and we shouldn't have to pay for the boxed set or expansions or digital downloads or anything...it should all be free..and more fun....much more fun....and options for all grouping or all soloing simultaneously...WOW ruined mmos....damn Blizzard....hate...spit...bile...(sigh).....hate.
All equipment like tanks and artillery function only in this zone (although there is also a new Strand BG which uses some equipment). I don't know the mechanics of air planes yet. But I already rode the artillery and tanks. Personal mounts are not allowed in the zone.
I thought I had read that they removed the airplanes while in beta. At least the forums indicate this.
I agree the next MMO from Blizz could be a complete industry killer. The gap with the newer MMO's is staggering... and this is just an expansion on a ... 4 year old game. Imagine what they can do with a new lore.
Ok, let's assume for a second that your wishes are granted. Blizzard's next MMO killed the industry.
So what? What are YOU going to do then? How will you come to forums and brag about it? The people who love that MMO will play it, and the people who does not like it will not play any MMO at all.
Bodypass, whenever you learn this motto, you will be one step closer to being an "Intelligent Customer". And that is:
"Competition improves any product. Consumers benefit the most from a healthy competition".
My claim is that, instead of having WoW with 4.5 m western and 6.5m Asian customers, we have 3 MMOs with 3-4 million subscribers each:
- WoW would have been a better game with challenging Xpacs and better PvP.
- Blizzard would still be making tons of profits as well as the other 2 companies producing the other MMOs.
- Consumers would have the choice to pick whatever suits their playstyle. If you want a casual game, you pick A, if you want an RvR/PvP focused game you pick B, if you want a more social game with well-thought crafting, player houses and all that stuff you pick C.
At the moment WoW is only a good PvE/raiding game. Crafting sucks. PvP sucks. RvR is non existant with some additions of artifical things like LW. It's becoming less and less challenging to the hardcore players with every Xpac and every day.
Give other games a chance. That's to all of you. Be patient. They will do some things wrong in the first 6 months but when they improve their focus areas (for AoC graphics, guild focus, open world PvP / for WAR RvR) they will be very good alternatives to your WoW. Which is a good thing for everyone (except Blizzard, because they will need to work their ass off to come up with better products).
----------------------------- Osbourne Cox: You are the guy from the gym.
Ted Treffon: I don't represent Hardbodies.
Osbourne Cox: I know very well what you represent. You represent the idiocy of today.
Ted Treffon: No, I don't represent that either.
Osbourne Cox: You are part of a league of morons. Oh, yes. You see you're one of the morons I've been fighting my whole life. But guess what. Today, I win.
I agree the next MMO from Blizz could be a complete industry killer. The gap with the newer MMO's is staggering... and this is just an expansion on a ... 4 year old game. Imagine what they can do with a new lore.
Ok, let's assume for a second that your wishes are granted. Blizzard's next MMO killed the industry.
So what? What are YOU going to do then? How will you come to forums and brag about it? The people who love that MMO will play it, and the people who does not like it will not play any MMO at all.
Bodypass, whenever you learn this motto, you will be one step closer to being an "Intelligent Customer". And that is:
"Competition improves any product. Consumers benefit the most from a healthy competition".
My claim is that, instead of having WoW with 4.5 m western and 6.5m Asian customers, we have 3 MMOs with 3-4 million subscribers each:
- WoW would have been a better game with challenging Xpacs and better PvP.
- Blizzard would still be making tons of profits as well as the other 2 companies producing the other MMOs.
- Consumers would have the choice to pick whatever suits their playstyle. If you want a casual game, you pick A, if you want an RvR/PvP focused game you pick B, if you want a more social game with well-thought crafting, player houses and all that stuff you pick C.
At the moment WoW is only a good PvE/raiding game. Crafting sucks. PvP sucks. RvR is non existant with some additions of artifical things like LW. It's becoming less and less challenging to the hardcore players with every Xpac and every day.
Give other games a chance. That's to all of you. Be patient. They will do some things wrong in the first 6 months but when they improve their focus areas (for AoC graphics, guild focus, open world PvP / for WAR RvR) they will be very good alternatives to your WoW. Which is a good thing for everyone (except Blizzard, because they will need to work their ass off to come up with better products).
You start out reasonable, but then you fall back to just wow-bashing. Yes, it would be 'nice' if some company could actually pull of a decent pvp game. The fact is, nobody CAN do it. Warhammer is a huge flop.. yes, on paper it sounds like RvR and ' pvp with a purpose'... but in action it is just grinding scenarios. Lake Wintergrasp > Teir 4, BGs>scenarios. In warhammer, at endgame.. there is exactly ONE scenario that everyone does. It is the only one that pops. In WOW, we now have 5 different bgs... and they keep getting more and more intricate. The mechanisms in Strands (moveable seige weapons etc) are MORE involved than even the teir 4 keeps in Warhammer.
For four years, Blizzard kept the door open for a sandbox game, or a 'pvp' game to come and fill the void. The only respectable game that was released in that time was LotRO, which unfortunatly went after the exact same area as Blizzard already had dominated. Warhammer and AOC have failed miserably at being the 'pvp' game. Blizzard has now focused on the pvp side of things.. and just like its impossible for a game to compete on the pve side of things, its now going to be impossible for any game to compete in the pvp side of things. Blizzard has taken the best parts of DAoC and perfected them, while warhammer took the worst parts of DAoc and WOW.
There is still room for a true sandbox time game, but I just don't see any companies with the resources to develop an AAA title out there. Bioware seems to be developing a linear, story game, where your progress will be less about your item stats and skills, and more about your quest choices.
The longer time goes on, the less likely there will ever be a sandbox game. Quest driven games have dominated the market for so long (even back to EQ). If someone produced a sandbox game, the majority of players would hate it because they'd be asking "where do I go for the next quest hub". It's hard for players who have experienced nothing but 'bread crumbs' to be given a game like uo, where you literally log in and have 'nothing' to do.
I do agree with you though. I do wish WOW would work on the 'social' part of the game more. Housing, guild functionality and just the little RP stuff. I wish someone at Blizzard would 'notice' how many people go out of their way to collect seasonal clothing and vanity pets (two things with no ingame advantage).
I agree the next MMO from Blizz could be a complete industry killer. The gap with the newer MMO's is staggering... and this is just an expansion on a ... 4 year old game. Imagine what they can do with a new lore.
Ok, let's assume for a second that your wishes are granted. Blizzard's next MMO killed the industry.
So what? What are YOU going to do then? How will you come to forums and brag about it? The people who love that MMO will play it, and the people who does not like it will not play any MMO at all.
Bodypass, whenever you learn this motto, you will be one step closer to being an "Intelligent Customer". And that is:
"Competition improves any product. Consumers benefit the most from a healthy competition".
My claim is that, instead of having WoW with 4.5 m western and 6.5m Asian customers, we have 3 MMOs with 3-4 million subscribers each:
- WoW would have been a better game with challenging Xpacs and better PvP.
- Blizzard would still be making tons of profits as well as the other 2 companies producing the other MMOs.
- Consumers would have the choice to pick whatever suits their playstyle. If you want a casual game, you pick A, if you want an RvR/PvP focused game you pick B, if you want a more social game with well-thought crafting, player houses and all that stuff you pick C.
At the moment WoW is only a good PvE/raiding game. Crafting sucks. PvP sucks. RvR is non existant with some additions of artifical things like LW. It's becoming less and less challenging to the hardcore players with every Xpac and every day.
Give other games a chance. That's to all of you. Be patient. They will do some things wrong in the first 6 months but when they improve their focus areas (for AoC graphics, guild focus, open world PvP / for WAR RvR) they will be very good alternatives to your WoW. Which is a good thing for everyone (except Blizzard, because they will need to work their ass off to come up with better products).
Xtort, I am fairly sure that everyone understands that competition breeds better products. Lets not pretend people are completely ignorant of business basics ok?
However the complete dominance of WoW over every other MMO is a result of just about every other MMO failing to compete. Just look at the list of MMOs, pick one and I bet you can see the flaws of the game right off the bat. From completely rushed incomplete launches, drastic revamps of the core gameplay, overzelous money grabs at the expense of the players or any other number of collosal business screw ups.
In order for there to be competition the other companies have to at least try to compete. How many games have not shot themselves in the foot in the last four years with disasterous launches? The days of people paying a monthly fee just for the privilege of waiting for the possibility a game blossoms are long since dead.
This is not a problem of people not wanting or knowing about competition. It is the almost complete lack of competition being offered. As long as gaming companies continue to act like the developers of the late 1990s things will only get worse. Trust me, people want a new game. They are actively looking for a game that competes. You can see that at least a million people were willing to try Conan and Warhammer at their launches. The fact that they are not sticking around shows those games are not serious competitors. Warcraft didn't have anywhere close to the momentum these games are offered. People are ready, but game developers still have not learned the lessons of the past.
The one funny thing about your rantings about WoWs pvp being bad, yet it is still the most popular PvP mmo on the market. Yes read that again. More people play WoW for pvp than play any other game. How sad is it that a PvE game not only dominates the PvE market, but dominates the PvP market as well. What does that tell you?
Lake Wintergrasp > Teir 4, BGs>scenarios. In warhammer, at endgame.. there is exactly ONE scenario that everyone does. It is the only one that pops. In WOW, we now have 5 different bgs... and they keep getting more and more intricate. The mechanisms in Strands (moveable seige weapons etc) are MORE involved than even the teir 4 keeps in Warhammer.
So WoW bashing is NOT ok but WAR bashing is ok? According to what? The 11m vs. 700k dilemna? Popularity of a game does not grant quality.
I completely disagree that LW > T4 and BGs > scenarios.
RvR in War is a lot of fun. Go and have a look at Warhammer forums now! Mythic boosted RvR only slightly for a couple of days and people are telling they have had the best fun in any MMO.
I have 2 characters in War: one is Dark Crag and the other is in Skull Throne. They are very popular servers. In the last 3-4 days I have had continuous RvR action for more than 5 hours in both of the servers (different days of course), in T3 and T4.
War scenarios are great. The new Reikland factory is awesome. People do not play only 1 Scenario in any tier right now. That was in the past.
And let me remind you, War has been released only 2 months ago. After 2 months of release of WoW the state of PvP was like this (I was there, so I know):
1. Honor system was not introduced.
2. There were NO BGs.
3. There were NO arenas.
4. People were participating in open world PvP and were trying to capture enemy cities, if you remember. But there was no rewards at all. After honor system was introduced, that is about ~3 months of release, there was the huge Tarren Mill battles.
I had a mage. I was literally destroying 5-10 enemies with only Arcane Explosion. That's all I gotta say for the class balance.
With the 1.1 patch that is within a month, there will be huge class balancing and RvR boost.
No other game can be compared to WAR's RvR option after that. I can bet on anything you want.
Sure the WAR PvE/raiding will not be as good as WoW's. Gear progress will still be more important in WoW compared to any other game. I am not bashing WoW. I am telling what I think. If I were a PvEr by heart, I would be playing WoW instead.
But for PvP/RvR WoW is boring, very boring. It can not compete with the RvR of WAR and the combat/open PvP of AoC.
But yeah, if you are having fun in WoW, good for you. I respect that. But for a true PvPer, Guild Wars / Eve/ WAR / AoC (I don't knoe the latest state of AoC but looks promising now) are much better games.
----------------------------- Osbourne Cox: You are the guy from the gym.
Ted Treffon: I don't represent Hardbodies.
Osbourne Cox: I know very well what you represent. You represent the idiocy of today.
Ted Treffon: No, I don't represent that either.
Osbourne Cox: You are part of a league of morons. Oh, yes. You see you're one of the morons I've been fighting my whole life. But guess what. Today, I win.
Originally posted by Xtort With the 1.1 patch that is within a month, there will be huge class balancing and RvR boost. No other game can be compared to WAR's RvR option after that. I can bet on anything you want. Sure the WAR PvE/raiding will not be as good as WoW's. Gear progress will still be more important in WoW compared to any other game. I am not bashing WoW. I am telling what I think. If I were a PvEr by heart, I would be playing WoW instead.
The problem as I see it is that Mythic has not gotten RvR/Scenarios right yet. People are already complaining about how bored they are of the scenarios [yes the same one pops over and over and over] and there is a problem with RvR where people are opting to not participate.
There is no guarentee that Mythic will get it right with patch 1.1. While I am impressed with Mythics responses and ability to identify the problem, they have yet been able to deliver. Patch 1.1 sounds great on paper, but there are no details yet. Just promises and I've seen far to many devs make promises of great things to come and never deliver.
From all these people listing before us only Xtort doesn't agree that he new expansion kind of rocks in the new PvP of WotLK.
But ... he's also the one who never even tried WotLK and Strand and Wintergrasp. He has no idea.
If I were in love with a game - like he is with War - I certainly would defend that game also on its merits. Grzt to him for doing it even on a Wow forum. But the fact remains that Blizzard this time did what TBC did NOT do, raising the standards in the original game for most players. Zone design, quest design, phasing (I was surprised yesterday), in games cinematics and yes PvP hardware (tanks, fortresses, siege engines,....) we didn't have before.
Wow PvP mechanics are extremely good at the moment and range from arena, to 5 BG's and a world PvP zone that are complementary and Blizzard ensures with tricks like gear .... "bound on account", everyone will play it. PvP fighting was always smooth in Wow, now they added more hardware to fight with.
------------
On phasing guys, we haven't seen the end yet: it is far more than the 5 minutes shift when you step in "another dimension". I won't spoil the things you still need to find out. Just let me say: continue to do those longer quest lines.
That's why I said in one of those post above: imagine what Blizzard will do in a new MMO, because they will start out with those techniques, no doubt. If they can do ... this with a 4 year old game, imagine where they can go from here in a new World of .... X within 3 years time. (whatever the title).
This is NO longer the old vanilla raiding game Wow. Those who play it feel it in their toes.
Seriously, you're making me jones like an ex-junie watching Blow, between all these praise threads for Blizzard and my friend showing me his DK the other night you guys are going to make me bust out the CC again and give Blizz more of my hard earned money!
What is funny about the true PvPer thingie? I have seen tons of guilds/players that are searching for a good PvP game because they are hardcore and WoW can never respond their needs.
Guild wars is a PvP game. It has sold more than 4 million copies.
Eve is a PvP game and a very complex+challenging one.
AoC and WAR are PvP games. AoC is good in open world PvP and WAR focuses on RvR elements.
What does WoW focus? PvE/raiding/grinding/gear...
And you say there are no games on the market even though there is a demand for a better game. How so? Most of the WoW players even did not hear about any other MMO out there. The other MMO producers does not even have 1/4 the budget of Blizzard. Yet Blizzard comes up with crappy expansion that brings nothing new to the table for $40, after all of the profits for 4 years.
----------------------------- Osbourne Cox: You are the guy from the gym.
Ted Treffon: I don't represent Hardbodies.
Osbourne Cox: I know very well what you represent. You represent the idiocy of today.
Ted Treffon: No, I don't represent that either.
Osbourne Cox: You are part of a league of morons. Oh, yes. You see you're one of the morons I've been fighting my whole life. But guess what. Today, I win.
Comments
Unfortunately that will be too late I fear. Mythic had a shot of getting a jump on Blizzard before WoTLK came out and it couldn't capitalize on it. Now that WoTLK is out and Mythic hasn't gotten a strong foothold yet, they won't have the numbers to get people to jump to their game. Oh it will hover around where it's at now I think and it may even grow a bit over time, but it's never going to be the competitor to WoW that many thought it would be.
Just my opinion. I could be wrong.
Millions of people seem to think so
I'd say blizzard are doing a very good job at making money. Isnt that what a successful business does?
Obviously not. Just look at Darkfall. Best MMO on the market, and they haven't made a dime! You really need a better meter for success, yours is broken.
Your telling me that Blizzards World of Warcraft isnt a success? Darkfall isnt even on the market yet. I think its you sir who needs a better meter of success
Fixed it for you.
Pfft ... have you not seen the kind of recent videos! Don't forget player reviews!
Def DF > RF Online.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Pfft ... have you not seen the kind of recent videos! Don't forget player reviews!
Def DF > RF Online.
Ha ha.. Yeh ive read the reviews and seen the videos it looks...........erm... looks like a game that might make a profit if it attracts a good amount of people. (If in fact it is actually released)
I love the idea of the game but unfrotunatly Ive grown up a little since my SWG pre-cu days. Too many RL responsbilities now like looking after a family. Id never have the time to play a game that deep and sandboxy
Just to be back on topic:
Had my first win today in Lake Winter (after a few losses the previous days
). Achievement on lvl 75 (normally you need to be 77-80).
Honor was 2100 something. As a corporal made 3 catapults with firebreath and cannonballs, was just promoted to lieutenant and on my way to the workplace for an assault tank, when the besieged Keep fell. Had a little party invited and I estimated a total of 50 players on the Alliance side, the Hordes were of course with MUCH more
. Already a lot of 80's there now and of course some "normal" people in their mid 70's. No lag at all.
The castle fell although only 4 walls were breached (out of a possible 18). The trick was to concentrate on the center and roll up wall after wall while having diversion attacks on the flanks.
Duration : 40 minutes. Haven't seen any planes yet.
I have only ONE thing to say in regards to this thread:
DRIVING tanks and seige weapons of all sorts (some that you can even have a few players at a TIME in - especially good to add a mage or lock rapid firing spells in with you), and flying bombers YOURSELF (with full control) trumps like MAD the lame clicking on the groud to "control" a catapult, spill hot oil, etc. BS that Warhammer had. No comparison....at all.
The people talkin' trash about WoW's new PvP, have obviously never PLAYED it. They're trying to judge from past battlegrounds, arena, etc., and haven't even tried the new style of WoW PvP addiction....lol. This is NOT like the old BGs, and is NOTHING like arena. It feels like a war, and we've learned to HATE the other side of the server for four years now, so there is plenty of vehemence behind it. It's electrically charged all out warfare and it's IMMENSELY FUN!
I'm EVER so glad that I made the decision to continue with WoW.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Millions of people seem to think so
I'd say blizzard are doing a very good job at making money. Isnt that what a successful business does?
Obviously not. Just look at Darkfall. Best MMO on the market, and they haven't made a dime! You really need a better meter for success, yours is broken.
Your telling me that Blizzards World of Warcraft isnt a success? Darkfall isnt even on the market yet. I think its you sir who needs a better meter of success
You're telling me that just because Blizzard released World of Warcraft 4 years ago they deserve acclaim? What sort of an arbitrary standard is that? You have to release a video game to make a great video game?
Sometimes I despair at the WoW fanboys who think that just because a game isn't on the market yet it automatically means that it's not more successful than WoW. Darkfall has seven years of successful development history, Blizzard was still nattering about some RTS game back when Darkfall was announced. It's clear which one is the industry giant.
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson
Warhammer can not compete to the monster that is WoW. It was never intended to compete with WoW in the first place. WAR is an RvR game, 75% of the players are raiders/PvErs. WoW will appeal to them more.
WAR just wants to be the best RvR/PvP game out there. OpenWorld PvP is not that good in WAR. It's the realm vs. realm, being and supporting your realm in every occasion that matters.
WAR is already a very successful game. You don't need 4.5 m NA+Europe plus 6.5m Asian players to be successful. You might just make profits with 1/10 of that number and people playing your game might enjoy what you offer.
-----------------------------
Osbourne Cox: You are the guy from the gym.
Ted Treffon: I don't represent Hardbodies.
Osbourne Cox: I know very well what you represent. You represent the idiocy of today.
Ted Treffon: No, I don't represent that either.
Osbourne Cox: You are part of a league of morons. Oh, yes. You see you're one of the morons I've been fighting my whole life. But guess what. Today, I win.
Like you say no comparison at all. Simply put: this is never seen in fantasy MMORPG land, where every other avatar moves as if he has a stick in his ass.
I don't think Xtort can even imagine what it's like.
The strategy of assault is free because BOTH the attackers and defenders have tanks and a LOT of other Siege equipment they need to build.
After a heavy fight the City Castle looks like a WW2 assaulted city. Wrecks, debris and smoke everywhere. It blows in dynamic fights - litterarely - the competition out of the water
In seeing this I am VERY curious what Blizzard is going to do in their next MMO. If you can do that with a rather fixed and 4 year old Wow, imagine what they will introduce in their next MMO.
Please explain how Lake Wintergrasp is "open world PVP."
It's like AV but you're not in an instance. That isn't open world PVP.
As Lake Wintergrasp is no instance, it's in the open world of Wow.
Simple isn't it.
You can go over there and particiapte. PvP is automatically on, you can't hide. Flight paths. Vendors. Professions can be leveled. Gathering mats.
it's about time you play it before giving "vomments"
As Lake Wintergrasp is no instance, it's in the open world of Wow.
Simple isn't it.
You can go over there and particiapte. PvP is automatically on, you can't hide. Flight paths. Vendors. Professions can be leveled. Gathering mats.
it's about time you play it before giving "vomments"
I'm still just hitting 70... but they have an area with perpetual Open PvP?
like this:
I imagine you are not restricted to killing players in a zone inside a little area like it is above... well... unless you are not on an Open RvR server in WAR...
Still, it is a step in the right direction... and I hope their NEXT MMO features more things like this.
As Lake Wintergrasp is no instance, it's in the open world of Wow.
Simple isn't it.
You can go over there and particiapte. PvP is automatically on, you can't hide. Flight paths. Vendors. Professions can be leveled. Gathering mats.
it's about time you play it before giving "vomments"
I'm still just hitting 70... but they have an area with perpetual Open PvP?
like this:
I imagine you are not restricted to killing players in a zone inside a little area like it is above... well... unless you are not on an Open RvR server in WAR...
Still, it is a step in the right direction... and I hope their NEXT MMO features more things like this.
Well to have an idea:
The fortress of Lake Wintergrasp alone is almost as big as the complete Warson Gulch BG.. The complete Zone is huge and compares (Blizzard says) to the size of Westfall.
Wow has no RvR but the new PvP mechanics themselves are unmatched in any fantasy MMORPG on the market. Imagine the differences with the elemental PvP of a few years back.
Tank vs tank battles, Infantry must be taken out with flamethrowers, Artillery batter everything else. And all this in a moving tense combat system, which just begs for different tactics because defenders and attackers have both moving siege systems.
All this with the usual fluid Wow controls and tight fighting mechanics we all know. No discussion, this is far above the usual clunky movement we see in those other MMO's.
I agree the next MMO from Blizz could be a complete industry killer. The gap with the newer MMO's is staggering... and this is just an expansion on a ... 4 year old game. Imagine what they can do with a new lore.
I recall the Mythic guys in an interview saying they think Warhammer will have between 2-3 million subscribers in time. Yes Warhammer was very much intended as a competitor to WoW and frankly every other fantasy MMO. Mark and Paul were just not stupid enough to come right out and say it after how badly it bit Funcom in the ass.
Warhammer had a successful launch, but it doesn't look like they can hold onto that success at the current rate of things. Time will tell, but they might not be able to hit their own success mark of 500k subscribers and I it is very plausable they could dip below the 250k break even mark. Those are the subscriber benchmarks as stated by Mythic, not me.
I'm still not sold on Wintersgrasp yet since I have not caught a battle. It looks like a step in the right direction and there are some nice PvP changes in the game which is cool by me. I don't need war to be everywhere to have a good time. Just so that I can go somewhere and find war is good enough.
WOW...pfft!!!....Wotlk..big Pfffffft!!!!....Just like BC...haruuumpphhh!!!...nothing new. Same old same old...everything that was in WOW...BC...or Wotlk ....that wasn't there..should be there already. Everything that is missing from WOW or any expansion (or any other mmo or expansion)...whether it has even been thought of yet...should have been there at launch....with better photo-realistic graphics...pure-orgasmic sound quality..and completely bug-free..no bugs ever..and...and....my computer should spit out $100 bills for every hour...no...every minute I play....and we shouldn't have to pay for the boxed set or expansions or digital downloads or anything...it should all be free..and more fun....much more fun....and options for all grouping or all soloing simultaneously...WOW ruined mmos....damn Blizzard....hate...spit...bile...(sigh).....hate.
All equipment like tanks and artillery function only in this zone (although there is also a new Strand BG which uses some equipment). I don't know the mechanics of air planes yet. But I already rode the artillery and tanks. Personal mounts are not allowed in the zone.
I thought I had read that they removed the airplanes while in beta. At least the forums indicate this.
Did Blizzard not inform you?
Ok, let's assume for a second that your wishes are granted. Blizzard's next MMO killed the industry.
So what? What are YOU going to do then? How will you come to forums and brag about it? The people who love that MMO will play it, and the people who does not like it will not play any MMO at all.
Bodypass, whenever you learn this motto, you will be one step closer to being an "Intelligent Customer". And that is:
"Competition improves any product. Consumers benefit the most from a healthy competition".
My claim is that, instead of having WoW with 4.5 m western and 6.5m Asian customers, we have 3 MMOs with 3-4 million subscribers each:
- WoW would have been a better game with challenging Xpacs and better PvP.
- Blizzard would still be making tons of profits as well as the other 2 companies producing the other MMOs.
- Consumers would have the choice to pick whatever suits their playstyle. If you want a casual game, you pick A, if you want an RvR/PvP focused game you pick B, if you want a more social game with well-thought crafting, player houses and all that stuff you pick C.
At the moment WoW is only a good PvE/raiding game. Crafting sucks. PvP sucks. RvR is non existant with some additions of artifical things like LW. It's becoming less and less challenging to the hardcore players with every Xpac and every day.
Give other games a chance. That's to all of you. Be patient. They will do some things wrong in the first 6 months but when they improve their focus areas (for AoC graphics, guild focus, open world PvP / for WAR RvR) they will be very good alternatives to your WoW. Which is a good thing for everyone (except Blizzard, because they will need to work their ass off to come up with better products).
-----------------------------
Osbourne Cox: You are the guy from the gym.
Ted Treffon: I don't represent Hardbodies.
Osbourne Cox: I know very well what you represent. You represent the idiocy of today.
Ted Treffon: No, I don't represent that either.
Osbourne Cox: You are part of a league of morons. Oh, yes. You see you're one of the morons I've been fighting my whole life. But guess what. Today, I win.
Ok, let's assume for a second that your wishes are granted. Blizzard's next MMO killed the industry.
So what? What are YOU going to do then? How will you come to forums and brag about it? The people who love that MMO will play it, and the people who does not like it will not play any MMO at all.
Bodypass, whenever you learn this motto, you will be one step closer to being an "Intelligent Customer". And that is:
"Competition improves any product. Consumers benefit the most from a healthy competition".
My claim is that, instead of having WoW with 4.5 m western and 6.5m Asian customers, we have 3 MMOs with 3-4 million subscribers each:
- WoW would have been a better game with challenging Xpacs and better PvP.
- Blizzard would still be making tons of profits as well as the other 2 companies producing the other MMOs.
- Consumers would have the choice to pick whatever suits their playstyle. If you want a casual game, you pick A, if you want an RvR/PvP focused game you pick B, if you want a more social game with well-thought crafting, player houses and all that stuff you pick C.
At the moment WoW is only a good PvE/raiding game. Crafting sucks. PvP sucks. RvR is non existant with some additions of artifical things like LW. It's becoming less and less challenging to the hardcore players with every Xpac and every day.
Give other games a chance. That's to all of you. Be patient. They will do some things wrong in the first 6 months but when they improve their focus areas (for AoC graphics, guild focus, open world PvP / for WAR RvR) they will be very good alternatives to your WoW. Which is a good thing for everyone (except Blizzard, because they will need to work their ass off to come up with better products).
You start out reasonable, but then you fall back to just wow-bashing. Yes, it would be 'nice' if some company could actually pull of a decent pvp game. The fact is, nobody CAN do it. Warhammer is a huge flop.. yes, on paper it sounds like RvR and ' pvp with a purpose'... but in action it is just grinding scenarios. Lake Wintergrasp > Teir 4, BGs>scenarios. In warhammer, at endgame.. there is exactly ONE scenario that everyone does. It is the only one that pops. In WOW, we now have 5 different bgs... and they keep getting more and more intricate. The mechanisms in Strands (moveable seige weapons etc) are MORE involved than even the teir 4 keeps in Warhammer.
For four years, Blizzard kept the door open for a sandbox game, or a 'pvp' game to come and fill the void. The only respectable game that was released in that time was LotRO, which unfortunatly went after the exact same area as Blizzard already had dominated. Warhammer and AOC have failed miserably at being the 'pvp' game. Blizzard has now focused on the pvp side of things.. and just like its impossible for a game to compete on the pve side of things, its now going to be impossible for any game to compete in the pvp side of things. Blizzard has taken the best parts of DAoC and perfected them, while warhammer took the worst parts of DAoc and WOW.
There is still room for a true sandbox time game, but I just don't see any companies with the resources to develop an AAA title out there. Bioware seems to be developing a linear, story game, where your progress will be less about your item stats and skills, and more about your quest choices.
The longer time goes on, the less likely there will ever be a sandbox game. Quest driven games have dominated the market for so long (even back to EQ). If someone produced a sandbox game, the majority of players would hate it because they'd be asking "where do I go for the next quest hub". It's hard for players who have experienced nothing but 'bread crumbs' to be given a game like uo, where you literally log in and have 'nothing' to do.
I do agree with you though. I do wish WOW would work on the 'social' part of the game more. Housing, guild functionality and just the little RP stuff. I wish someone at Blizzard would 'notice' how many people go out of their way to collect seasonal clothing and vanity pets (two things with no ingame advantage).
Ok, let's assume for a second that your wishes are granted. Blizzard's next MMO killed the industry.
So what? What are YOU going to do then? How will you come to forums and brag about it? The people who love that MMO will play it, and the people who does not like it will not play any MMO at all.
Bodypass, whenever you learn this motto, you will be one step closer to being an "Intelligent Customer". And that is:
"Competition improves any product. Consumers benefit the most from a healthy competition".
My claim is that, instead of having WoW with 4.5 m western and 6.5m Asian customers, we have 3 MMOs with 3-4 million subscribers each:
- WoW would have been a better game with challenging Xpacs and better PvP.
- Blizzard would still be making tons of profits as well as the other 2 companies producing the other MMOs.
- Consumers would have the choice to pick whatever suits their playstyle. If you want a casual game, you pick A, if you want an RvR/PvP focused game you pick B, if you want a more social game with well-thought crafting, player houses and all that stuff you pick C.
At the moment WoW is only a good PvE/raiding game. Crafting sucks. PvP sucks. RvR is non existant with some additions of artifical things like LW. It's becoming less and less challenging to the hardcore players with every Xpac and every day.
Give other games a chance. That's to all of you. Be patient. They will do some things wrong in the first 6 months but when they improve their focus areas (for AoC graphics, guild focus, open world PvP / for WAR RvR) they will be very good alternatives to your WoW. Which is a good thing for everyone (except Blizzard, because they will need to work their ass off to come up with better products).
Xtort, I am fairly sure that everyone understands that competition breeds better products. Lets not pretend people are completely ignorant of business basics ok?
However the complete dominance of WoW over every other MMO is a result of just about every other MMO failing to compete. Just look at the list of MMOs, pick one and I bet you can see the flaws of the game right off the bat. From completely rushed incomplete launches, drastic revamps of the core gameplay, overzelous money grabs at the expense of the players or any other number of collosal business screw ups.
In order for there to be competition the other companies have to at least try to compete. How many games have not shot themselves in the foot in the last four years with disasterous launches? The days of people paying a monthly fee just for the privilege of waiting for the possibility a game blossoms are long since dead.
This is not a problem of people not wanting or knowing about competition. It is the almost complete lack of competition being offered. As long as gaming companies continue to act like the developers of the late 1990s things will only get worse. Trust me, people want a new game. They are actively looking for a game that competes. You can see that at least a million people were willing to try Conan and Warhammer at their launches. The fact that they are not sticking around shows those games are not serious competitors. Warcraft didn't have anywhere close to the momentum these games are offered. People are ready, but game developers still have not learned the lessons of the past.
The one funny thing about your rantings about WoWs pvp being bad, yet it is still the most popular PvP mmo on the market. Yes read that again. More people play WoW for pvp than play any other game. How sad is it that a PvE game not only dominates the PvE market, but dominates the PvP market as well. What does that tell you?
So WoW bashing is NOT ok but WAR bashing is ok? According to what? The 11m vs. 700k dilemna? Popularity of a game does not grant quality.
I completely disagree that LW > T4 and BGs > scenarios.
RvR in War is a lot of fun. Go and have a look at Warhammer forums now! Mythic boosted RvR only slightly for a couple of days and people are telling they have had the best fun in any MMO.
I have 2 characters in War: one is Dark Crag and the other is in Skull Throne. They are very popular servers. In the last 3-4 days I have had continuous RvR action for more than 5 hours in both of the servers (different days of course), in T3 and T4.
War scenarios are great. The new Reikland factory is awesome. People do not play only 1 Scenario in any tier right now. That was in the past.
And let me remind you, War has been released only 2 months ago. After 2 months of release of WoW the state of PvP was like this (I was there, so I know):
1. Honor system was not introduced.
2. There were NO BGs.
3. There were NO arenas.
4. People were participating in open world PvP and were trying to capture enemy cities, if you remember. But there was no rewards at all. After honor system was introduced, that is about ~3 months of release, there was the huge Tarren Mill battles.
I had a mage. I was literally destroying 5-10 enemies with only Arcane Explosion. That's all I gotta say for the class balance.
With the 1.1 patch that is within a month, there will be huge class balancing and RvR boost.
No other game can be compared to WAR's RvR option after that. I can bet on anything you want.
Sure the WAR PvE/raiding will not be as good as WoW's. Gear progress will still be more important in WoW compared to any other game. I am not bashing WoW. I am telling what I think. If I were a PvEr by heart, I would be playing WoW instead.
But for PvP/RvR WoW is boring, very boring. It can not compete with the RvR of WAR and the combat/open PvP of AoC.
But yeah, if you are having fun in WoW, good for you. I respect that. But for a true PvPer, Guild Wars / Eve/ WAR / AoC (I don't knoe the latest state of AoC but looks promising now) are much better games.
-----------------------------
Osbourne Cox: You are the guy from the gym.
Ted Treffon: I don't represent Hardbodies.
Osbourne Cox: I know very well what you represent. You represent the idiocy of today.
Ted Treffon: No, I don't represent that either.
Osbourne Cox: You are part of a league of morons. Oh, yes. You see you're one of the morons I've been fighting my whole life. But guess what. Today, I win.
The problem as I see it is that Mythic has not gotten RvR/Scenarios right yet. People are already complaining about how bored they are of the scenarios [yes the same one pops over and over and over] and there is a problem with RvR where people are opting to not participate.
There is no guarentee that Mythic will get it right with patch 1.1. While I am impressed with Mythics responses and ability to identify the problem, they have yet been able to deliver. Patch 1.1 sounds great on paper, but there are no details yet. Just promises and I've seen far to many devs make promises of great things to come and never deliver.
LOL at the "true PvPer" comment.
A little side comment:
From all these people listing before us only Xtort doesn't agree that he new expansion kind of rocks in the new PvP of WotLK.
But ... he's also the one who never even tried WotLK and Strand and Wintergrasp. He has no idea.
If I were in love with a game - like he is with War - I certainly would defend that game also on its merits. Grzt to him for doing it even on a Wow forum. But the fact remains that Blizzard this time did what TBC did NOT do, raising the standards in the original game for most players. Zone design, quest design, phasing (I was surprised yesterday), in games cinematics and yes PvP hardware (tanks, fortresses, siege engines,....) we didn't have before.
Wow PvP mechanics are extremely good at the moment and range from arena, to 5 BG's and a world PvP zone that are complementary and Blizzard ensures with tricks like gear .... "bound on account", everyone will play it. PvP fighting was always smooth in Wow, now they added more hardware to fight with.
------------
On phasing guys, we haven't seen the end yet: it is far more than the 5 minutes shift when you step in "another dimension". I won't spoil the things you still need to find out. Just let me say: continue to do those longer quest lines.
That's why I said in one of those post above: imagine what Blizzard will do in a new MMO, because they will start out with those techniques, no doubt. If they can do ... this with a 4 year old game, imagine where they can go from here in a new World of .... X within 3 years time. (whatever the title).
This is NO longer the old vanilla raiding game Wow. Those who play it feel it in their toes.
DAMN! DAMN! DAMN!
STOP POSTING POSITIVE THREADS ABOUT WoW ALREADY!
Seriously, you're making me jones like an ex-junie watching Blow, between all these praise threads for Blizzard and my friend showing me his DK the other night you guys are going to make me bust out the CC again and give Blizz more of my hard earned money!
STOP IT!
What is funny about the true PvPer thingie? I have seen tons of guilds/players that are searching for a good PvP game because they are hardcore and WoW can never respond their needs.
Guild wars is a PvP game. It has sold more than 4 million copies.
Eve is a PvP game and a very complex+challenging one.
AoC and WAR are PvP games. AoC is good in open world PvP and WAR focuses on RvR elements.
What does WoW focus? PvE/raiding/grinding/gear...
And you say there are no games on the market even though there is a demand for a better game. How so? Most of the WoW players even did not hear about any other MMO out there. The other MMO producers does not even have 1/4 the budget of Blizzard. Yet Blizzard comes up with crappy expansion that brings nothing new to the table for $40, after all of the profits for 4 years.
-----------------------------
Osbourne Cox: You are the guy from the gym.
Ted Treffon: I don't represent Hardbodies.
Osbourne Cox: I know very well what you represent. You represent the idiocy of today.
Ted Treffon: No, I don't represent that either.
Osbourne Cox: You are part of a league of morons. Oh, yes. You see you're one of the morons I've been fighting my whole life. But guess what. Today, I win.