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Quests: Good or Bad?
AlloughN
Member Posts: 168
I'm one of those ones that tout open sandbox. I don't like doing the "save the maiden" quest 20 times in a row, or even 20 times a month. I like making my own "quests". Would MMO's be better without quest's?
Then I thought about, quests do add some structure to the game, and are very nice for those with less imagination, or less time to play than me. They could be a very useful tool for the developers, if they were used to introduce new items or content to the game.
Its been forever since I played Runescape, but I seem to remember that they were fun quests that made me use my brain. They helped me level up quicker, and they didn't repeat. Some quests took me a very long time to complete, but they were fun.
So what do you think? Are quests good or bad for a MMO. I was against them, but now am thinking that as long as they are non-repetive, fun, and of a wide variety, they are a very good thing as something for the casual player to do, a great tool for the devs, and something of structure for the timelines.
Mindless quests, or repetitive ones I am still very against. I know that having 200 quest that are fundamentally and visually different would take a lot of writers, but I think 50 well planned quests, that require some "non questing" time to complete would be wonderful. Runescape did a great job there.
Your thoughts?
Comments
Quests are good if done correctly.
If you can feel the grind...the quests are bad. If you know you are grinding, but it's just fun, then you have yourself a winner.
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Guys! I'm hopelessly lost in a mountain of mole hills! Them damn moles!
I have never played Runescape so I cannot give any opinion about their system, but I would love to see a new approach to the questing. An approach that would bring the RPG aspect back to the game.
RPG is all about making choices and current games end its "rpgness" at the character's creation screen stage. In best case we get the possibility to customize our toons more or less (EQ2 and AA system, PvP fame in WAR etc.) but usually there is one and the best build so the customization is an illusion
How about a system of heavily chained quests where a player will be forced to make choices every 2-3 sub quests? The amount of ways he will be given to choose from could be determined by his skills/race/ previous choices. I think Witcher have similar system, when at the one point you had to choose if you save you friend or your girlfriend, because there is no way to save them both. Or do you let the local peasants burn the witch, or not. Do you join vampiress Bodhi or do you hook up with the Thieves Guild? (Baldur"s Gate) Your choice influence the rest of the gameplay. This is also possible in mmorpg's persistent worlds, where the outcome of you choices will determine the other quest paths available for your character. If made right it can even influence the world itself and by this way - other players. But I guess it would required very heavy scripting and for some reason chief developers consider graphic designers to be on the top of their payrolls.
I also just realized that I do not remember when was the last time when I red the whole quest - I just jump to the objective, knowing that the story around it is not need to complete it. Especially that the objective itself is often only made up to cover the heavy grind(kill 50 Picts, bring me skins of 30 alligators - hell no grinding at all, just pure questing
). In single player games that never happens to me - I read everything carefully.
There was a time I though the mmorpg means death for single player rpg games, but as long as the mmorpgs will keep continue to clone each other and keep focusing on the gfx as they top priority, the single player rpg will still be a viable option both for crpg fans and developers (vide Fallout 3 ).
Check this thread out as it is the same thing you are talking about: Why the Quest Grind is becoming so popular
Then this thread talks about what people believe are the best quests: The Best Quests
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A work in progress: (Update: 08/09/10)Easily find your favorite type of MMO
What goes for quests in lots of games are really tasks. "Go kill 10 orcs" is a "task" and could just as easily be rewarded by informing the player that for "every" orc he or she kills, they gain 5 faction points; no need for a quest or a log at all for that sort of thing.
True "quests" such as "assemble the bone handle with the mithril blade to form the Sword of Paladins" are great to have in a game as long as the challenge matches the reward. If it's too easy, then after awhile, every paladin will have a "Sword of the Paladin" and it'll be no big deal.
Todays MMO's have too many quests (or tasks masquerading as quests) and create a forced and linear feel to gameplay, even though these quests and tasks are optional.
Players go for the path of least resistance, and if that means kill X of such-and-such monster, they will do that until they die of boredom.
"Then I thought about, quests do add some structure to the game, and are very nice for those with less imagination, or less time to play than me."
Never thought quests were for those with "less imagination" "than me", that sounds rather insulting.
Quests tell stories, oh I could do my own quest, invent my own story, but isn't "questing" in MMOs just telling the game lore's story?
CoH has some nice story telling in Story Arcs (my current MMO).
Quests(missions in CoH) are the same, kill this many of those, go here beat this NPC's fanny, collect this glowing item, ect ect. But the clues and mission giver dialouge tell the story (and eventually get you a prize
). It's rather fun fighting Archvillans after a good Story Arc or Task Force.
Quests are good.
Too many quests in some games? Maybe.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
Terribly sorry, that came out totally wrong, I would had been offended if I had read it.
I meant to say something along the lines of quests are a guidlines for imagination to follow.
I am known for 2 things, a extremem imagination, and the unerring ability to present words in such a way that their literal meaning is correct but they are entirely incomprhesible and sensless, sometimes offensive, so that no one can understand my initial intentions that preceeded the wording by a nanosecond.
See what I mean? :P
I like the way NetDevil is making Jumpgate: Evolution as far as quests go. Well, everything else too, but quests are the topic at hand, so that is what I'm addressing
Basically, if I remember correctly, they are making a sort of "template" quest, where you have to escort a NPC (or player!) cargo ship from one star to another to ensure it isnt attacked. However, depending on the ship you have, the cargo ship, the person piloting the cargo ship, and the other players that attack you, every time you do a mission like this, it would be completely different! It's a different ship, a different player, and a different scenario every time, taking the traditional "I've done this quest 10 times before, why won't it change" into "I've done a quest similar to this before, but every situation is different, making it fun.
I think other game developers need to look at this and reconsider the tradition that questing has put itself into.
Quests can be really fun.
But you should always have a choice if you wanna do it or not. If you have to do them or everyone else have done them....i see no point in having them there.
I was trying to get my head around this the other day. Why is it games like Baldur's Gate or Oblivion have such great quests while MMO's repeatedly fail in providing consistently engaging quests without descending into the territory of 'Kill X number of Y'.
I hope that one day we reach a stage where all quests are randomly generated based on events and player interactions, and have a real and lasting impact on the world. When or if this will ever occur is a completely different issue.
quests are neither good or bad in my opinnion, its the implementation that can be good or bad. for most people quests are a basic thing in rpg and so also in mmos.
quests and their perception changed a lot since the start of the mmos, in the begin each game had a few real quests that required a lot effort to be finished. but now most quests are just simple tasks like kill 10 wolves, or bring this item to that NPC, so most quests today require near to 0 thinking and you just have to follow an arrow on your minimap to find the spot where you have to go and then mndless killing of some enemies that in most games pose near to no challenge.
So basically most challenge of quests got lost in the last years and additionally most games went the way of wow where quests are the only viable way to level (yes could still just kill mobs and ignore quests but then you will be a lot slower than when you do quests).
i think these 2 developments combined lead to the point that many older mmo players get bored with questing and see it as grinding quests now.
what i personally would like to see is:
*) a differentiation between real quests and tasks/missions/writs or however you want to call these simple 10 minutes quests that are flooding todays mmos.
*) a dynamic mission system to replace the current boring simple quests, make world more dynamic. maybe at one time the gnolls want to attack the city, so people get tasks to kill the attacking gnolls, destroy the supplies... that event lasts some days and once enough of these missions got completed the gnolls retreat, and then the city has to restock supplies and people get missions to get food by killing animals...
*) additionally there should be big quests that require real effort and thinking, people should not be able to solve these just by following the arrows on their minimap. (yes i know that the spoiler sites will have walkthroughs for these soon enough, but the first people still have to work on these and people that want to solve these themself can still do it later on too). there is not the need for a huge amount of these quests, i think about 100 such quests can be enough for the start of a game, and then add 1-2 every few months. also a big part of these should probably require grouping for at least parts of these quests.
Quests are like food in real life.
In EQ2 most quests are like a fine meal at a nice restaurant and in WoW they are like a meal at your local sloppy burger joint.
Do you get the idea?
Quests work great in Single Player games, becaue they change the game world.
Quests dont' work so great in an MMORPG, because you can't let one player change the game world for every other player.
IN a single player game, you save the Princess, or you tell the King screw the Princess you aren't going to save her, and the whole game changes accordingly. You become the Hero of the land because you saved the Princess, and she is forever saved, or you becme an Enemy of the Kingdom, and the Princess is slain and is forever dead, etc.
In an MMORPG, you save the Princess, then I save the Princess, then a thousand other players save the princess, so who cares? Why read the boring story, since nothing is going to happen to the game world? Even so, some people like reading the quest dialog in an MMORPG, and it gives them something to do.
The main thing is XP. How much extra XP do you get for doing a quest? If it's a lot, and there are a lot of quests, then you've created a quest grind.
I'd say bad, because they take away budget that could be spent on game play. They only thing quests do is guide you from one grind area to another.
Plus "non-repetive, fun, and of a wide variety" is not possible with the volume of quests that would be required.
Console rpg were great at telling a story because you were the hero alone, mmos are trying to force console quest/story driven rpg elements that do not fit into a mmo setting very well.
Quests can be fun, but I don't think I have played an MMO that really made the most of quests though. Most of the time they come out like busy work, go here, kill that, collect this. If they made fewer quests and made them with the same quality of single player game, except it is co-op then that would be great. Also if you are going to have dungeons and instance them you might as well make them more cinematic and more interactive.
Another aspect I think would be good is open objectives that pop up semi-randomly, things like a bandit attack, that the game generates for players to do rather than chase to do lists like quest grinds or just aimlessly and pointlessly grind on mobs like the more sandboxy model.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
What he said. They're just not immersive or even logical in a massively multiplayer game.
But then again what is a good alternative to provide players with something interesting to do?
I mean I like the idea of random events but those can only go so far.
Other than that we can leave people to make their own reasons for grinding mobs and skills, however contrived they are. Or hope they roleplay enough to enjoy the grind.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
But then again what is a good alternative to provide players with something interesting to do?
I mean I like the idea of random events but those can only go so far.
Other than that we can leave people to make their own reasons for grinding mobs and skills, however contrived they are. Or hope they roleplay enough to enjoy the grind.
More player driven content would be a start. I think there are at least a few MMOs that have done this in one way or another. Thats not to say that you can't have quests, but I definately don't think they should be the focus of the game, like they are now in most new MMOs.
I agree I would like to see fewer but better done quests.
Maybe have some developer planned events every month too, even if it is something small like a race.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Quests are a fine idea.
However, in a MMO, what pleasure should I be getting knowing that I am doing the exact same thing thousands of other players have done before me, with the same reward that thousands of other people already have? Single player, theres no one to compare with, other than people playing the same game, but they have no influence on your gameplay in your single player experience.
In an MMO, you are simply playing catchup with everyone else. Your efforts do not matter, all they do is increase your stats in some way to allow you to catch up or stay ahead of others. I am sick of MMOs that give you the same quest (ok, Im now killing 20 savage trolls rather than just trolls, great) over and over.
I am tired of seeing MMOs simply waste their main selling aspect; playing with thousands of other players in persistant worlds. Why not use the players to generate quests and tasks, so instead of deliverering the same letter between NPCs that have given and recieved it a thousand times before, instead you are delivering a cach of weapons to a player buyer from a player crafter, or delivering a declaration of war between rival player factions, or taking rare herbs to a remote region currently suffering from a plague?
This idea can be expanded upon hugely; a guild could put an order out on timber, and pay anyone who delivers a certain amount of cash. Or a guild could hire mercenary fighters to harass an enemy guilds members.
But then again what is a good alternative to provide players with something interesting to do?
I mean I like the idea of random events but those can only go so far.
Other than that we can leave people to make their own reasons for grinding mobs and skills, however contrived they are. Or hope they roleplay enough to enjoy the grind.
More player driven content would be a start. I think there are at least a few MMOs that have done this in one way or another. Thats not to say that you can't have quests, but I definately don't think they should be the focus of the game, like they are now in most new MMOs.
Please NOT. I will take professional genereated content over amateur generated content any time of the day.
Quests are 100x better than pure mob grinding because they give you reasons to kill different mobs. Plus, with the right scripted events, it can make game play a lot more fun.
And there are a lot more than just kill/collecting quest. What about escort quests (those have a lot of variations), boss kill quests, and little odd ball things with scripting.
I still say Runescape has done it right...
Ya, quests in a MMO can't affect the whole world, but a lot of companies stop there, write them off as a way to introduce more grinding. But really, quests shouldn't affect the main game world anyways. They should affect you. Age of Conan has a "reap and sow" system now, a better developed version of that would help. Quests should affect your characters "prestige". Choices made in the quests should lead to consequences, and different branches of the quests. Kinda like those "choose your own story" books.
We need to quit trying to force the rpg style quest on the MMO world, it doesn't work. Quests should be more dependent on the character, the surroundings, and the timeperiod. I'm not a fan of the "do exactly what the person before you did" either. I guess that falls under the "dynamic quests" opinion. Jumpgate makes a good start there.
What about public quests like WAR introduced? Public quests CAN affect the game world, since its a good chunk of the players working together on them.
And I think the kill/collect quests need to be entirely thrown out, those are just tasks. Well, not entirely, but revamped to make it more "questie"
Really, I think something like 25 or 30 well thought out, intuitive quests would be the perfect number. Done right, the players wont be blazing through them at 5 a hour. The normal quest could take days, the couple hard ones could take weeks. But don't get rid of the grind quests either, make them fun, and availible. Some people like them, and they could help with main quests. Nothing essential, but make them easier to obtain.
Players should NEVER be tied into having to do quests.
But then again what is a good alternative to provide players with something interesting to do?
I mean I like the idea of random events but those can only go so far.
Other than that we can leave people to make their own reasons for grinding mobs and skills, however contrived they are. Or hope they roleplay enough to enjoy the grind.
More player driven content would be a start. I think there are at least a few MMOs that have done this in one way or another. Thats not to say that you can't have quests, but I definately don't think they should be the focus of the game, like they are now in most new MMOs.
Please NOT. I will take professional genereated content over amateur generated content any time of the day.
Quests are 100x better than pure mob grinding because they give you reasons to kill different mobs. Plus, with the right scripted events, it can make game play a lot more fun.
And there are a lot more than just kill/collecting quest. What about escort quests (those have a lot of variations), boss kill quests, and little odd ball things with scripting.
There's a difference between player DRIVEN content and player CREATED content.
Player created content will always be touchy, unless theres a way to fillter out all of the crap. Player driven content can be some thing like haviing a player run economy, pvp, and limited resources.
I'm not going to argue for player created content, but there are some good examples: Never Winter Nights, Morrowind/Oblivion...
Hell, Oblivion was infinately better with some of the top player mods, but those were "overhaul" mods, not quest mods.
There were some quests I really liked in DAoC, but for the most part I HATE quest grinding.
So I started thinking why were there soem quests in DAoC that I really liked? Simple. They were all group based quests. You couldn't finish them without a group, so they weren't really much different than getting together a group and grinding.
Solo play in MMORPGs is not for me. I can't think of anything more boring in an MMORPG than reading NPC dialog and doing quests one after the other solo. I can just play a good single player game if I want to do that, and my actions will change the game world.
This template idea still is pretty generic. I mean, you can hid this randomness with different names, different ships, skins, locations or what have you. But people will still see the pattern and will still realize it is just a standard generic escort quest.
What makes quests fun is their non-repetativeness (sp?). The only way to have that is to have a unique hand-designed quest. No "<INSERT NPC NAME> wants you to escort him to <INSERT PLANET NAME>".
You need little twists to the quest to make it non-repetative, like, lets say you are doing an escort quest, suddenly a group of bandits jump in and start fighting you and the escort you are supposed to protect is shooting at you too!
Or maybe another merc comes in and tries to persvade you that he has a sapina on the escort and he wants to arrest him. Will you stick to your contract and attack someone who has legal rights to arrest your escort? Or will you obey the law and stand down?
Or maybe a jelous GF of your escort jumps in and starts making problems. Will you earn some points with her at a cost of your business reputation? or will you attack her in self-defense?
Or maybe your escort suddenly hails you claiming their ship is about to explode and he wants to get on your ship, but your sensors do not detect anything of the sort. Will you risk it and let him onboard? Or will you wait and see what happens?
I dunno about you, but I guess I was spoiled by the few good RPGs like mass effect and fallout. I will no longer enjoy repeatable quests without those little twists to distinguish them from each other. Hiding their generic nature by different names, planets or ship skins doesnt cut it for me anymore
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
to me quests arent even quests in these games anymore ... they should be considered chores. I would rather have a game come with 10 super hard ACTUAL quests that change the game instead of 5000 chores.
a quest to me would be like the original epic quests in EQ1 or the Coldane ring Quest.