I personally am looking forward to this game, however, I do have some of the same questions as other fans. First off, those who call ToR a WoW clone are obviously just trolling, because this game doesn't sound anything like WoW. Just because a game has quests that you level off of, doesn't make it a clone of WoW, since most games in this world that fall under the Adventure and RPG genre requires you to do quests. The difference is that ToR will have a main story line to follow + seperate storylines for each class in the game. This is done in the traditional Bioware fashion, with companion characters and decisions that alter the storyline. That is far from WoW in my book. The quest I have is how will this game justify the monthly fee. As it is, it sounds like a single player game. No one here in their right mind would pay a monthly fee for a single player game. So where does grouping come in, especially since we'll have companion characters that we can group of with instead of waiting for others to group? The option to Group is always there and you have only yourself to blame if you don't do it. At least that's what I understand from the info so far. People attacking games because they are solo-friendly...well, they should look for other games. I personally do like the possibility of doing most (not ALL) things by myself if, for some reason, there is no one around I can group with. There will always be times when there is no one around you can do stuff with. As long as i can do -everything- in a group but have the option to do most but not all things by myself, I don't see a problem. I will not bash or cast judgement on a game that was just announced a month ago. Instead, I have questions like all of you all do. Like most here, I'll withold my judgements until I receive a lot more information. This will likely come in the next couple of years. I'm patient and can wait.
As many have said before me, just because there is an option to play solo does not mean there is nothing to do in a group.
To judge -HOW- this game will be played (solo and multi) we'll need more info. I don't like the idea of Guild Wars like world, but I don't think we're headed that way here, at least, I hope not.
I'll reply to you point by point.
* You said "I only have myself to blame if I don't group with others." First, if the story is so great, which I think it will be, why would I want to skip my companions personal stories and my class stories in order to group up and grind on some mobs. I'm assuming nothing here and only using the info available to me. I haven't heard them mention the multiplayer aspect of this game. The part the justifies the monthly fee. In fact, if we have story lines to follow and our decisions influence our companions, wouldn't peope who love story want to group with their companions as much as possible? Also, there are many adult gamers now, which has expanded the casual pool. It's not that we don't like grouping, because I know I love to group, it's that grouping takes entirely too long and group content is setup to only be beatable by a combination of this and that class. For example, in other games you might have every class you need to do the group content except for a tank or healer. You could spend hours waiting for a healer or a tank, whereas in ToR, it sounds like you have everyone you need in your companion characters. Again, let's not assume anything yet, which is what I gathered you are doing when you say "that's what I understand from the info so far." If they have stated facts about group content, there's nothing to understand, it's black and white. But I haven't read anything that's black and white on grouping and like I said, I am a patient man and can wait a couple of years to learn more about the game before judging it.
As you said. We'll have to be patient. But yes, I believe many people are themselves to blame if they don#t group. It's nice that you have an encompassing storyline, but personally, I enjoy playing with my friends a lot more. Which is why I play MMO's in the first place.
* You said "People attacking games because they are solo-friendly..." I don't understand why you posted that in reply to my post, because I wasn't attacking ToR in the slightest. I even made it a point to clarify that I am not judging or bashing the game in my OP. I believe a game should be solo friendly, because it can be hard to find groups a lot of times. However, a multiplayer game with a monthly fee needs to justify the fee. In my opinion, group content justifies a monthly fee. I do believe they said that there will be massive battles against the opposing faction, which will require other players, but if that is an end game only mechanic, I don't think it'll justify the fee. We will have to wait for more info to know for sure.
I'm sorry if that came off as being specifically directed at you. I assure you, it was not. But there are many people who -do- attack games (not just this one) for being solo-friendly.
* Lastly, you said "As long as I can do everything in a group but have the option to do most but not all things by myself..." In games that require you to complete quests to gain the majority of your xp, and gamers being what they are, people will solo what they can and will only group when they must. This can be proven by looking at any game with quests content. Ask for a group to do a solo quest and people will get on the main channel to tell you it is soloable. The fact is that most people are anti-social and would rather not group if at all possible. There is no reason to believe it will be any different in ToR, and in my opinion, this is probably why Bioware was smart enough to add companion characters.
As you said, and you basically agree with me as it seems, the -people- are responsible for being anti-social. But should a game force you to group? No, I seriously do not think so because that would, in the end, just lead to more frustration.
So in my 7 years of MMORPG experience, I believe that the only way to justify a monthly fee is to put content in that requires players to interact. Most games do this by putting in a PvP system, a crafting/player economy system, and group/raid content. This combined justifies the monthly fee. Any one of those by itself probably wouldn't justify a monthly fee in most players minds. Guild Wars has proven that people will attempt to do all group content that they can with their NPC allies before asking for a group. Most games has proven that players in general will solo everything they can, including the group quests, and only group for things they absolutely have to or for quests where they are competing for spawns. In a good story based game, people will be interested in seeing the story through and will be less likely to deviate from the story to grind mobs or do irrelevant group quests.
Bioware has given the impression that your story will encompass your entire leveling process, like it did in KoToR and Mass Effect. This leads me to believe that there won't be anytime for grouping activities with other players, not that anyone would want to deviate from an outstanding story to begin with. So that leaves what? The end game. The end game alone will not persuade most to pay a monthly fee.
It's possible Bioware is overhyping the story part of their game and it could be more like LoTRO in that the majority of the game will be played in an open world around other players that have group quests and raids, but has a seperate story line dispersed throughout your levels, but doesn't encompass every level in your career. If they did this, I could see how the multiplayer part of the game could be justified...along with the monthly fee.
How will it play out? I have no idea. BioWare is certainly putting a lot of emphasis on the story, but that is, most likely, due to the fact that it is their Trademark. BioWare is known for their stories and it is what they aim to bring into the MMO Genre.
But yes, I, too would like a lot more info on the Multiplayer aspects of the game. How will grouping work, will there be a Padawan/Master system, how much of the game can -NOT- be soloed etc. Until then, sadly, there is nothing we can do but speculate.
We are making yet another linear WoW clone in attempts to tap in to Blizzards customerbase because we are unable to think of ideas of our own and our Corporate overlords (EA) wants pure profit with minimal expenses...But its STAR WARS! You guys would even buy a bucket full of poop if it was labeled "Wookie poop" wouldnt you??
Do you have a link? Man, that Wookie Poop Bucket will look SO cool next to my Bantha DooDoo Bag!!!!
"When people don't know much about something, they tend to fill in the blanks the way they want them to be filled in. They are almost always disappointed." - Will Wright
Bioware has posted a new article on the Star Wars: The Old Republic official site which spells out their intentions to implement deep story and evoke emotional attachment to your character in their recently announced MMO.
Creating great stories in video games is a hallmark for both BioWare and LucasArts. Star Wars: The Old Republic marks the beginning of a joint effort between these two companies to bring epic storytelling into a massively multiplayer online game. We believe that there are four pillars of the roleplaying experience: progression, exploration, combat, and story. Achieving a high degree of quality in each of these will create a rich, challenging, and emotional gameplay experience. Among massively-multiplayer online games, story hasn’t always received the same level of attention given to the other pillars. Star Wars: The Old Republic brings a new dimension to the MMO experience by putting story front and center. What does this mean to you? When you play Star Wars: The Old Republic, you will experience a new level of immersion achieved through the following features: * Epic Star Wars™ environments and story arc
* Class-specific storylines that evolve based on player choice
* Companion characters with individual motivations and personalities that will change based on player interactions In Star Wars: The Old Republic you will have an emotional attachment to your character and face decisions in the game which will guide the development of your character and determine the direction of the character’s storyline. Whatever your choices may be, you’ll still be the hero (or villain) of an epic storyline which gives extra meaning to the other gameplay pillars. Character advancement will be much more than coming up with efficient statistics. Exploration will be about experiencing new places, new people, and new stories. Finally, instead of just reaching for that next level, you will be engaging in visceral combat reminiscent of the Star Wars movies where you’re motivated to fight for more than just yourself – but also for a cause.
I have two problems with this press release first is that I am getting a headache trying to think of a LucasArts game that had a great storyline and the second is that I didn't read anything in this that we didn't already know.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
With no mention of non-combat or social systems, and a complete lack of emphasis on community so far, this game sounds more and more like a small new story driven twist on the same old WoW clone formula. Another themepark mmo, but with even more quests than usual. Big deal. Anyone who played Guild Wars knows that the 'companion system' (Henchmen/Heros) only served to drive people apart as they could simply solo the game with their companions, rather than group up save for a few big quests. I really don't understand the current need for developers to turn MMO's into single player games with chat rooms. Man, I hope Earthrise delivers.
I often wonder about the people who fear more single player content in mmos if there are thousands of you out there who like t group why not get together and group regardless? Most of these games don't force you to solo they just make content that can be solo'd I for one have had so many bad experience with groups that I am loathe to play games that I'm forced to group in they're usually filled with wanna be leet drama queens who cry about the simplest mistake a person makes wether it is real or imagined.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
I am very much looking forward to a truly solo friendly MMO and I have an inkling that I won't be alone in that regard.
Solo friendly MMO? You mean a single player game with an online chat room, don't you? I think some of you have been completely confused about what an MMO is supposed to be, compared to how far off course they are now. What you should be playing is an RPG, not an MMORPG.
The whole point of the "MMO" part of the genre is for the game to be online with thousands of other players who you should have to interact with for most of your needs. Otherwise, why are we paying a monthly subscription fee for these game to be online? Seems to me that these game companies could save themselves a ton of money in server / cluster technology if they would just put chat servers online, and leave the rest of the game offline on the user's computer. That's what many of them amount to these days anyway.
There seems to be a whole market of gamers out there who have no desire whatsoever to have contact with other players, and indeed would like to rob the rest of us of all the community based MMO features. I think you people strayed into the wrong genre.
You people sure can be dense when it serves your purpose. We all know that the monthly fees pay for the servers, bandwidth and the content updates. Your whole notion of forced community is a ridiculous argument.
The point is to play in an ever changing online world that is occupied by thousands of other players in which you can interact with as you please. Group, trio, duo, solo, guild, real life friends, imaginary firends....etc. I'm not sure where you get the idea that MMO stands for forced interaction. I mean, I was introduced to MMO's by EverQuest, which was the motherload of forced grouping. That game went through more than 2 million subs and never kept more than 450,000 at it's peak. How much you want to make a bet that was due to the hardcore, forced grouping, raid or die mentality?
WoW is a farily solo friendly game and yet it focuses too much on raiding, despite the fact that they admitted that less than 20% of their player base actually participates in raiding or the fact that people really enjoy soloing in that game. You have your forced grouping games on the market and you have tons more on the horizon, why the heck do you feel the need to persuade Bioware to do the same? Are we anti-social soloers not allowed to have our perfect MMO?
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I am very much looking forward to a truly solo friendly MMO and I have an inkling that I won't be alone in that regard.
Solo friendly MMO? You mean a single player game with an online chat room, don't you? I think some of you have been completely confused about what an MMO is supposed to be, compared to how far off course they are now. What you should be playing is an RPG, not an MMORPG.
The whole point of the "MMO" part of the genre is for the game to be online with thousands of other players who you should have to interact with for most of your needs. Otherwise, why are we paying a monthly subscription fee for these game to be online? Seems to me that these game companies could save themselves a ton of money in server / cluster technology if they would just put chat servers online, and leave the rest of the game offline on the user's computer. That's what many of them amount to these days anyway.
There seems to be a whole market of gamers out there who have no desire whatsoever to have contact with other players, and indeed would like to rob the rest of us of all the community based MMO features. I think you people strayed into the wrong genre.
You people sure can be dense when it serves your purpose. We all know that the monthly fees pay for the servers, bandwidth and the content updates. Your whole notion of forced community is a ridiculous argument.
The point is to play in an ever changing online world that is occupied by thousands of other players in which you can interact with as you please. Group, trio, duo, solo, guild, real life friends, imaginary firends....etc. I'm not sure where you get the idea that MMO stands for forced interaction. I mean, I was introduced to MMO's by EverQuest, which was the motherload of forced grouping. That game went through more than 2 million subs and never kept more than 450,000 at it's peak. How much you want to make a bet that was due to the hardcore, forced grouping, raid or die mentality?
WoW is a farily solo friendly game and yet it focuses too much on raiding, despite the fact that they admitted that less than 20% of their player base actually participates in raiding or the fact that people really enjoy soloing in that game. You have your forced grouping games on the market and you have tons more on the horizon, why the heck do you feel the need to persuade Bioware to do the same? Are we anti-social soloers not allowed to have our perfect MMO?
the 'skill' required in raiding is two-fold.
1 lots of time and patience to do the same exact "content" 50 times over.
2 the ability to read from a script and perform YOUR scripted actions repeatedly.
raiding is not anything that requires actual SKILL. that is the point that everyone is missing. raiding's purpose (as stated by numerous devs/spokespersons of various MMOs) is to provide that forced social interaction. BECAUSE, if you socialize and make friends in-game, then you'll continue to repeat the same boring-as-hell content long long after it ceases to be fun, so that you can continue to be friends and cool with your online buddies.
i'm not disagreeing with the quoted, just adding to it.
MMO, or MMORPG does not imply forced grouping of any type. the forced grouping comes from the forced social interaction i stated above.
so yeah, if it's only 1% of 10 million people that are raiding... just imagine the money wow COULD be making if it stopped making dungeons that no one wants to play? but hey, kaplan and pardo are just incredibly lucky that blizzard NORTH already had an incredibly strong following and that a lot of players are fine with 1 out of 3 dungeons being content they'll never even bother with. heck, i don't even like 10 man groups.
but, that's because of the way these fantasy-games are... i have no problems being part of a group of hundreds in fleet battles in eve. or even a roaming band of just like 30 people, chilling and killing for hours.
i'm curious though, what EXACTLY is the content that people who want to semi-solo in mmos, would be stealing? the raid content that 1% of the player-base utilizes?
bleh, whatever.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by MindTrigger Solo friendly MMO? You mean a single player game with an online chat room, don't you? I think some of you have been completely confused about what an MMO is supposed to be, compared to how far off course they are now. What you should be playing is an RPG, not an MMORPG. The whole point of the "MMO" part of the genre is for the game to be online with thousands of other players who you should have to interact with for most of your needs. Otherwise, why are we paying a monthly subscription fee for these game to be online? Seems to me that these game companies could save themselves a ton of money in server / cluster technology if they would just put chat servers online, and leave the rest of the game offline on the user's computer. That's what many of them amount to these days anyway. There seems to be a whole market of gamers out there who have no desire whatsoever to have contact with other players, and indeed would like to rob the rest of us of all the community based MMO features. I think you people strayed into the wrong genre.
Okay, for the sake of argument, let's suppose I'm a complete and utter douchebag.
Furthermore, let's also assume I have twice as much spare time as you, know the game inside and out, and have at least ten times as many friends — all of whom are my equals both in competence and obnoxiousness.
Still want to have to interact with me for most of your needs?
With no mention of non-combat or social systems, and a complete lack of emphasis on community so far, this game sounds more and more like a small new story driven twist on the same old WoW clone formula. Another themepark mmo, but with even more quests than usual. Big deal. Anyone who played Guild Wars knows that the 'companion system' (Henchmen/Heros) only served to drive people apart as they could simply solo the game with their companions, rather than group up save for a few big quests. I really don't understand the current need for developers to turn MMO's into single player games with chat rooms. Man, I hope Earthrise delivers.
I often wonder about the people who fear more single player content in mmos if there are thousands of you out there who like t group why not get together and group regardless? Most of these games don't force you to solo they just make content that can be solo'd I for one have had so many bad experience with groups that I am loathe to play games that I'm forced to group in they're usually filled with wanna be leet drama queens who cry about the simplest mistake a person makes wether it is real or imagined.
I'm not necessarily talking about group questing, although I prefer to quest with people. Your poor experiences grouping with others probably stems from the fact that the games you choose to play are full of complete morons. For example, the crowd of people that populates LOTRO seems to be much more mature in general than the people playing WoW in my opinion. I hated grouping in WoW because it was full of clowns, idiots and troublemakers.
I did not have this problem in other MMO's I played. SWG had a very community driven, very mature population as well, which not coincentally, quit the game as soon as SOE tried to make SWG more WoW-like by dumbing it down for mass consumption. The majority of the players still sticking around SWG now are the same kind of PvP-whoring, smack talking kids we see in WoW. The mature players who are looking for a challenging, community-driven game have been left wandering the digital desert of the MMO genre ever since, trying to find a new home.
As I have mentioned in other posts, when you design a game to target WoW's subscription numbers, you have to target the lowest common denominator of player. This is marketing 101 class. The wider your audience, the simpler your product has to be to use. If I fear anything it is any new game in development that says they are going after WoW's sub numbers. There is a market for this obviously, but I am not in it, so when I see a game like SWTOR which, so far, seems to be taking the easy route again, I get bummed.
Even though I plan to hang around here and get my view into these discussions, I have already come to realize that I will probably never be happy with any of the big-name games that are being marketed to everyone. I have to keep my eye out for niche games similar to EVE in concept. EVE is an unforgivingly complex game that is doing quite well with a thriving community, and the devs are able to take chances and continue to introduce complex features. They have a smaller community, and they are still making a boat load of money, keeping their player base around for YEARS, not months. The only game I see in development now that is going for a niche market, is Earthrise. That's the only one I have hope for anymore.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Originally posted by MindTrigger Solo friendly MMO? You mean a single player game with an online chat room, don't you? I think some of you have been completely confused about what an MMO is supposed to be, compared to how far off course they are now. What you should be playing is an RPG, not an MMORPG. The whole point of the "MMO" part of the genre is for the game to be online with thousands of other players who you should have to interact with for most of your needs. Otherwise, why are we paying a monthly subscription fee for these game to be online? Seems to me that these game companies could save themselves a ton of money in server / cluster technology if they would just put chat servers online, and leave the rest of the game offline on the user's computer. That's what many of them amount to these days anyway. There seems to be a whole market of gamers out there who have no desire whatsoever to have contact with other players, and indeed would like to rob the rest of us of all the community based MMO features. I think you people strayed into the wrong genre.
Okay, for the sake of argument, let's suppose I'm a complete and utter douchebag.
Furthermore, let's also assume I have twice as much spare time as you, know the game inside and out, and have at least ten times as many friends — all of whom are my equals both in competence and obnoxiousness.
Still want to have to interact with me for most of your needs?
I worded my original post poorly. You know, I'm not even saying that SWTOR needs to have "forced" anything. All I want to see is better, richer crafting and some type of system that makes social encounters (such as SWG entertainers) a useful part of the game. If they add those features, and make them fun, the magic will happen on its own. You want to pay a monthly fee to play an online game and avoid other people, go for it. I just don't want these games to ONLY cater to a style of play that is 99% solo combat, 1% everything else.
What has been one of the biggest complaints about MMOS the last few years? It's that they are shallow and boring "clones". Everyone complains that all they have to do is run around these giant quest theme parks until level cap. They get bored, and usually leave. The reason is because the game developers have decided not to develop any other aspect of the game, and community features have been completely dropped. All we have now are weak, simple and unfulfilling excuses for crafting / auction house systems. Everything else is quest, quest quest, instance, quest, quest, level cap followed by rerolling a new class or quit the game....which happens in months now because the A.D.D children out there can't be bothered to accomplish something that takes more than a month or two of game play.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I'm failing to see where exactly other players even come into play. If you have your own NPC party, and the biggest part of the game is a storyline wrapped around you, why would there even be any need for social interaction?
The more I hear about this game, the more I don't like. I mean it sounds like a great RPG, but I'm not seeing anything MMO about it....yet.
I can pay $7.95 for a paperback book/novel in any book store that I can read in 1 day, why would I pay $15 per month to read a Book/novel spaced out over 3 months or more?
Seriously, I can buy hundreds of Star Wars books for 7.95, why would I pay more for a game that tells the same story?
You people act as if grouping is the only way for players to interact as a community. You couldn't be more wrong. Grouping is only a small aspect and not even close to the most important aspect of community. If a game is fun and others enjoy it as well, that creates community. It doesn't cater to one specific play style. I'm so tired of you always falling back on the fallacy that soloing equals anti-social behavior, when it's obvious that soloers interact with others constantly via chat, drive by heals and buffs, cooperating with others without grouping, buying goods, selling goods, building a house in a neighborhood and the list goes on. You guys behave like tyrants with your play style.
Soloers have never expected others to solo if they don't want to and yet groupers are always insisting on game mechanics that force everyone to group whether they like it or not. That groupers somehow deserve the best loot, the best content, the lion's share of everything, even though they pay the same amount as every soloer out there. For once, we deserve a MMO that justifies the monthly fee we pay, because I'm sick and tired of supporting group / raid content with my subscription fees.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Originally posted by MindTrigger Solo friendly MMO? You mean a single player game with an online chat room, don't you? I think some of you have been completely confused about what an MMO is supposed to be, compared to how far off course they are now. What you should be playing is an RPG, not an MMORPG. The whole point of the "MMO" part of the genre is for the game to be online with thousands of other players who you should have to interact with for most of your needs. Otherwise, why are we paying a monthly subscription fee for these game to be online? Seems to me that these game companies could save themselves a ton of money in server / cluster technology if they would just put chat servers online, and leave the rest of the game offline on the user's computer. That's what many of them amount to these days anyway. There seems to be a whole market of gamers out there who have no desire whatsoever to have contact with other players, and indeed would like to rob the rest of us of all the community based MMO features. I think you people strayed into the wrong genre.
Okay, for the sake of argument, let's suppose I'm a complete and utter douchebag.
Furthermore, let's also assume I have twice as much spare time as you, know the game inside and out, and have at least ten times as many friends — all of whom are my equals both in competence and obnoxiousness.
Still want to have to interact with me for most of your needs?
I worded my original post poorly. You know, I'm not even saying that SWTOR needs to have "forced" anything. All I want to see is better, richer crafting and some type of system that makes social encounters (such as SWG entertainers) a useful part of the game. If they add those features, and make them fun, the magic will happen on its own. You want to pay a monthly fee to play an online game and avoid other people, go for it. I just don't want these games to ONLY cater to a style of play that is 99% solo combat, 1% everything else.
What has been one of the biggest complaints about MMOS the last few years? It's that they are shallow and boring "clones". Everyone complains that all they have to do is run around these giant quest theme parks until level cap. They get bored, and usually leave. The reason is because the game developers have decided not to develop any other aspect of the game, and community features have been completely dropped. All we have now are weak, simple and unfulfilling excuses for crafting / auction house systems. Everything else is quest, quest quest, instance, quest, quest, level cap followed by rerolling a new class or quit the game....which happens in months now because the A.D.D children out there can't be bothered to accomplish something that takes more than a month or two of game play.
These are the loudest complaints from the minority of MMO players. WoW, the shallowest game out there is 11 million strong and growing still. These people obviously like the more casual approach to gameplay. The days of EQesque, hardcore, irritating, boring, grind fest games have seen their last days in the limelight. Sure there will be more to come, but they will be small, niche games that may not be able to survive in today's market. Sad for you, but good for the majority of us who are looking to be entertained, not punished with ridiculous hardcore timesinks and irritating game mechanics.
By the way, questing for experience is much more preferable to the old EQ style of camping mobs hour after hour because they give you the best exp per hour and then spending your every waking moment at max level doing the same time wasting, boring assed raids over and over just so you can decorate your e-peen.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Originally posted by MindTrigger All I want to see is better, richer crafting and some type of system that makes social encounters (such as SWG entertainers) a useful part of the game.
Okay, I'll bite. What exactly does that mean? Can you be more specific, ideally without an unnecessary (not to mention condescending) rant about A.D.D. children?
With no mention of non-combat or social systems, and a complete lack of emphasis on community so far, this game sounds more and more like a small new story driven twist on the same old WoW clone formula. Another themepark mmo, but with even more quests than usual. Big deal. Anyone who played Guild Wars knows that the 'companion system' (Henchmen/Heros) only served to drive people apart as they could simply solo the game with their companions, rather than group up save for a few big quests. I really don't understand the current need for developers to turn MMO's into single player games with chat rooms. Man, I hope Earthrise delivers.
I agree. I was just waiting for this article to come by and prove my fears I already had with the announcement article(s) a while back.
Somehow they really can't let go of the WoW dreadmill and let it go and do something different.
I mean for christ sake!
1. They got the Star Wars IP, wich guarantees a jitload of box sales on IP alone already.
2. They know people loved the old SWG pre-NGE wich was a sandbox game and litterly HATED the game to be turned into a WoW clone Themepark!
What does Bioware do?
Let's make a WoW clone Themepark MMO and slap in the Guild Wars companion system to kill the last bit of MMO feel left as well and basically just turn it into a SPOG with glorified chat room.
Seriously, if this is going to be the future of MMO gaming... then Im done with the genre.
With no mention of non-combat or social systems, and a complete lack of emphasis on community so far, this game sounds more and more like a small new story driven twist on the same old WoW clone formula. Another themepark mmo, but with even more quests than usual. Big deal. Anyone who played Guild Wars knows that the 'companion system' (Henchmen/Heros) only served to drive people apart as they could simply solo the game with their companions, rather than group up save for a few big quests. I really don't understand the current need for developers to turn MMO's into single player games with chat rooms. Man, I hope Earthrise delivers.
I agree. I was just waiting for this article to come by and prove my fears I already had with the announcement article(s) a while back.
Somehow they really can't let go of the WoW dreadmill and let it go and do something different.
I mean for christ sake!
1. They got the Star Wars IP, wich guarantees a jitload of box sales on IP alone already.
2. They know people loved the old SWG pre-NGE wich was a sandbox game and litterly HATED the game to be turned into a WoW clone Themepark!
What does Bioware do?
Let's make a WoW clone Themepark MMO and slap in the Guild Wars companion system to kill the last bit of MMO feel left as well and basically just turn it into a SPOG with glorified chat room.
Seriously, if this is going to be the future of MMO gaming... then Im done with the genre.
Totally agree, and I am already done with the genre if Darkfall doesn't deliver. There is nothing left for true MMO gamers. Have fun with your kiddie WoW worlds everyone else. And keep scratching your head wondering why anyone that's played anything different dislikes the game.
With no mention of non-combat or social systems, and a complete lack of emphasis on community so far, this game sounds more and more like a small new story driven twist on the same old WoW clone formula. Another themepark mmo, but with even more quests than usual. Big deal. Anyone who played Guild Wars knows that the 'companion system' (Henchmen/Heros) only served to drive people apart as they could simply solo the game with their companions, rather than group up save for a few big quests. I really don't understand the current need for developers to turn MMO's into single player games with chat rooms. Man, I hope Earthrise delivers.
I agree. I was just waiting for this article to come by and prove my fears I already had with the announcement article(s) a while back.
Somehow they really can't let go of the WoW dreadmill and let it go and do something different.
I mean for christ sake!
1. They got the Star Wars IP, wich guarantees a jitload of box sales on IP alone already.
2. They know people loved the old SWG pre-NGE wich was a sandbox game and litterly HATED the game to be turned into a WoW clone Themepark!
Some people loved that. And to be quite honest, it wasn't the most successful MMO to begin with. Rose-tinted glasses won't help here.
What does Bioware do?
Let's make a WoW clone Themepark MMO and slap in the Guild Wars companion system to kill the last bit of MMO feel left as well and basically just turn it into a SPOG with glorified chat room.
Did I miss an announcement regarding the companion system? Could you link it to me please?
Seriously, if this is going to be the future of MMO gaming... then Im done with the genre.
Sounds like you already are, but I would point you in the direction of: Darkfall, Earthrise, Mortal Online and Fallen Earth for alternatives to this type of game.
I hope the games provided at the end give you more satisfaction. I would also hope you do not continue to make false or unsubstantiated claims about a game again. That way, we can all be happy.
With no mention of non-combat or social systems, and a complete lack of emphasis on community so far, this game sounds more and more like a small new story driven twist on the same old WoW clone formula. Another themepark mmo, but with even more quests than usual. Big deal. Anyone who played Guild Wars knows that the 'companion system' (Henchmen/Heros) only served to drive people apart as they could simply solo the game with their companions, rather than group up save for a few big quests. I really don't understand the current need for developers to turn MMO's into single player games with chat rooms. Man, I hope Earthrise delivers.
I agree. I was just waiting for this article to come by and prove my fears I already had with the announcement article(s) a while back.
Somehow they really can't let go of the WoW dreadmill and let it go and do something different.
I mean for christ sake!
1. They got the Star Wars IP, wich guarantees a jitload of box sales on IP alone already.
2. They know people loved the old SWG pre-NGE wich was a sandbox game and litterly HATED the game to be turned into a WoW clone Themepark!
What does Bioware do?
Let's make a WoW clone Themepark MMO and slap in the Guild Wars companion system to kill the last bit of MMO feel left as well and basically just turn it into a SPOG with glorified chat room.
Seriously, if this is going to be the future of MMO gaming... then Im done with the genre.
Totally agree, and I am already done with the genre if Darkfall doesn't deliver. There is nothing left for true MMO gamers. Have fun with your kiddie WoW worlds everyone else. And keep scratching your head wondering why anyone that's played anything different dislikes the game.
Oh boy. Do I want to enter that discussion again? Nah...i think I'll leave you to your elitist attitude. It's just amusing by now.
I agree. I was just waiting for this article to come by and prove my fears I already had with the announcement article(s) a while back. Somehow they really can't let go of the WoW dreadmill and let it go and do something different. I mean for christ sake! 1. They got the Star Wars IP, wich guarantees a jitload of box sales on IP alone already. 2. They know people loved the old SWG pre-NGE wich was a sandbox game and litterly HATED the game to be turned into a WoW clone Themepark!
What does Bioware do? Let's make a WoW clone Themepark MMO and slap in the Guild Wars companion system to kill the last bit of MMO feel left as well and basically just turn it into a SPOG with glorified chat room.
Seriously, if this is going to be the future of MMO gaming... then Im done with the genre.
Totally agree, and I am already done with the genre if Darkfall doesn't deliver. There is nothing left for true MMO gamers. Have fun with your kiddie WoW worlds everyone else. And keep scratching your head wondering why anyone that's played anything different dislikes the game.
The whole problem with Bioware is that a very large part of their fanbase are hardcore KotOR fans and rather see a KotOR3 then an MMO version.
When you read the reaction in every article posted there, two obvious points dominate in player reactions:
1. Will it be without monthly fees!
2. Can I play the game alone!
Ofcourse point 1 isn't going to happen, but appearently Bioware has taken point 2 litterly and seriously as what most people want.
Wich is utterly retarded, as why in earth would you listen to Single Player Game fans, instead of true MMO fans??
So Bioware seems to be listening more to their diehard KotOR fans, then to the MMO fans who grave for a true SW MMO! MMO fans who actually know what an MMO is and at least prepared to stick for the long haul and pay the monthly fees!
They really don't see that all those KotOR fans, ones that will ditch the game after the free 30 days have run out, are really not the fans they should listen to.
Real shame!
EDIT: @SingsOfDeath: The companion system is mentioned in the last alinea of the article.
And yes, Star Wars Galaxies was actually one of the most popular MMO's in 2003 - 2004. Till the CU and NGE hit.
The companion system only allows you to adventure with one at a time. You cannot comprise a full group with all of the companions that you have come across. Doesn't GW let you use multiple mercenaries at once?
Battle.net players cried about WoW not being a single player game and yet in the end, all of those people fell in love with their first MMO. Just because they intend to make a casual friendly game does not make it a WoW clone. Bioware has a very distinct flavor that Blizzard has never been able to emulate. These guys are very smart and very creative and have an outstanding history of making FUN games.
The market is already chock full of hardcore style games. It's a smart move on their part to compete with the fewer casual MMOs out there, since that automatically leads to a greater chance at a larger market share. Besides, their single player games have always been pretty darn casual, why change what has worked for them so far.
By the way, what exactly is a "True MMO Fan"? Are you born one? Do you have some kind of MMO gene? Because, as far as I can tell, MMO fans come from all walks of life and different gaming backgrounds or even no gaming background at all. If you seriously think that that kind of elitist appeal will have any influence on any developing company, then you are in for a rude awakening.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
You people act as if grouping is the only way for players to interact as a community. You couldn't be more wrong. Grouping is only a small aspect and not even close to the most important aspect of community. If a game is fun and others enjoy it as well, that creates community. It doesn't cater to one specific play style. I'm so tired of you always falling back on the fallacy that soloing equals anti-social behavior, when it's obvious that soloers interact with others constantly via chat, drive by heals and buffs, cooperating with others without grouping, buying goods, selling goods, building a house in a neighborhood and the list goes on. You guys behave like tyrants with your play style. Soloers have never expected others to solo if they don't want to and yet groupers are always insisting on game mechanics that force everyone to group whether they like it or not. That groupers somehow deserve the best loot, the best content, the lion's share of everything, even though they pay the same amount as every soloer out there. For once, we deserve a MMO that justifies the monthly fee we pay, because I'm sick and tired of supporting group / raid content with my subscription fees.
I don't think the "groupers" are saying that grouping should be forced on others or is the only way to play an MMO, because by God that has been proven wrong many times over with games like WoW and LoTRO. I think "groupers" are just pointing out that we'd like to hear what makes this game an MMORPG worthy of a subscription fee.
The reason that question is being asked is because by this time, most companies have given a full list of features that they "plan" to have by release. Always in this list, are features that require others, which in the end makes the game worth the monthly fee. These features may take the form of PvP, Raiding, Player Economy, Crafting, Quests and a host of extra features like housing and etc.
ToR hasn't listed any features that even justifies being hooked up to the internet. I'm not bashing or berating Bioware for this; I'm patient enough to wait and see. I have a lot of trust and faith in Bioware to make a great game. They're not dummies and even the CEO has played MMORPGs, which means they know the features that justify monthly fees. I bet we'll see a list of features in the years to come.
The point is this is a MMORPG, which means it needs some features to justify the payment every month. No one in their right mind will pay for a single player RPG every month; it's just idiotic.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
You people act as if grouping is the only way for players to interact as a community. You couldn't be more wrong. Grouping is only a small aspect and not even close to the most important aspect of community. If a game is fun and others enjoy it as well, that creates community. It doesn't cater to one specific play style. I'm so tired of you always falling back on the fallacy that soloing equals anti-social behavior, when it's obvious that soloers interact with others constantly via chat, drive by heals and buffs, cooperating with others without grouping, buying goods, selling goods, building a house in a neighborhood and the list goes on. You guys behave like tyrants with your play style. Soloers have never expected others to solo if they don't want to and yet groupers are always insisting on game mechanics that force everyone to group whether they like it or not. That groupers somehow deserve the best loot, the best content, the lion's share of everything, even though they pay the same amount as every soloer out there. For once, we deserve a MMO that justifies the monthly fee we pay, because I'm sick and tired of supporting group / raid content with my subscription fees.
I don't think the "groupers" are saying that grouping should be forced on others or is the only way to play an MMO, because by God that has been proven wrong many times over with games like WoW and LoTRO. I think "groupers" are just pointing out that we'd like to hear what makes this game an MMORPG worthy of a subscription fee.
The reason that question is being asked is because by this time, most companies have given a full list of features that they "plan" to have by release. Always in this list, are features that require others, which in the end makes the game worth the monthly fee. These features may take the form of PvP, Raiding, Player Economy, Crafting, Quests and a host of extra features like housing and etc.
ToR hasn't listed any features that even justifies being hooked up to the internet. I'm not bashing or berating Bioware for this; I'm patient enough to wait and see. I have a lot of trust and faith in Bioware to make a great game. They're not dummies and even the CEO has played MMORPGs, which means they know the features that justify monthly fees. I bet we'll see a list of features in the years to come.
The point is this is a MMORPG, which means it needs some features to justify the payment every month. No one in their right mind will pay for a single player RPG every month; it's just idiotic.
It has been stated that there will be PvP, Realm vs. Realm and Raiding. So that's three right there. o.O Quests is a given. As for the rest. Yes, I agree. Wait and see.
Comments
Sounds like a great single player game
Bla bla blabla
like many others il buy this to play alone and with rl freinds like many others i could care less about anyone else tbh
As many have said before me, just because there is an option to play solo does not mean there is nothing to do in a group.
To judge -HOW- this game will be played (solo and multi) we'll need more info. I don't like the idea of Guild Wars like world, but I don't think we're headed that way here, at least, I hope not.
I'll reply to you point by point.
* You said "I only have myself to blame if I don't group with others." First, if the story is so great, which I think it will be, why would I want to skip my companions personal stories and my class stories in order to group up and grind on some mobs. I'm assuming nothing here and only using the info available to me. I haven't heard them mention the multiplayer aspect of this game. The part the justifies the monthly fee. In fact, if we have story lines to follow and our decisions influence our companions, wouldn't peope who love story want to group with their companions as much as possible? Also, there are many adult gamers now, which has expanded the casual pool. It's not that we don't like grouping, because I know I love to group, it's that grouping takes entirely too long and group content is setup to only be beatable by a combination of this and that class. For example, in other games you might have every class you need to do the group content except for a tank or healer. You could spend hours waiting for a healer or a tank, whereas in ToR, it sounds like you have everyone you need in your companion characters. Again, let's not assume anything yet, which is what I gathered you are doing when you say "that's what I understand from the info so far." If they have stated facts about group content, there's nothing to understand, it's black and white. But I haven't read anything that's black and white on grouping and like I said, I am a patient man and can wait a couple of years to learn more about the game before judging it.
As you said. We'll have to be patient. But yes, I believe many people are themselves to blame if they don#t group. It's nice that you have an encompassing storyline, but personally, I enjoy playing with my friends a lot more. Which is why I play MMO's in the first place.
* You said "People attacking games because they are solo-friendly..." I don't understand why you posted that in reply to my post, because I wasn't attacking ToR in the slightest. I even made it a point to clarify that I am not judging or bashing the game in my OP. I believe a game should be solo friendly, because it can be hard to find groups a lot of times. However, a multiplayer game with a monthly fee needs to justify the fee. In my opinion, group content justifies a monthly fee. I do believe they said that there will be massive battles against the opposing faction, which will require other players, but if that is an end game only mechanic, I don't think it'll justify the fee. We will have to wait for more info to know for sure.
I'm sorry if that came off as being specifically directed at you. I assure you, it was not. But there are many people who -do- attack games (not just this one) for being solo-friendly.
* Lastly, you said "As long as I can do everything in a group but have the option to do most but not all things by myself..." In games that require you to complete quests to gain the majority of your xp, and gamers being what they are, people will solo what they can and will only group when they must. This can be proven by looking at any game with quests content. Ask for a group to do a solo quest and people will get on the main channel to tell you it is soloable. The fact is that most people are anti-social and would rather not group if at all possible. There is no reason to believe it will be any different in ToR, and in my opinion, this is probably why Bioware was smart enough to add companion characters.
As you said, and you basically agree with me as it seems, the -people- are responsible for being anti-social. But should a game force you to group? No, I seriously do not think so because that would, in the end, just lead to more frustration.
So in my 7 years of MMORPG experience, I believe that the only way to justify a monthly fee is to put content in that requires players to interact. Most games do this by putting in a PvP system, a crafting/player economy system, and group/raid content. This combined justifies the monthly fee. Any one of those by itself probably wouldn't justify a monthly fee in most players minds. Guild Wars has proven that people will attempt to do all group content that they can with their NPC allies before asking for a group. Most games has proven that players in general will solo everything they can, including the group quests, and only group for things they absolutely have to or for quests where they are competing for spawns. In a good story based game, people will be interested in seeing the story through and will be less likely to deviate from the story to grind mobs or do irrelevant group quests.
Bioware has given the impression that your story will encompass your entire leveling process, like it did in KoToR and Mass Effect. This leads me to believe that there won't be anytime for grouping activities with other players, not that anyone would want to deviate from an outstanding story to begin with. So that leaves what? The end game. The end game alone will not persuade most to pay a monthly fee.
It's possible Bioware is overhyping the story part of their game and it could be more like LoTRO in that the majority of the game will be played in an open world around other players that have group quests and raids, but has a seperate story line dispersed throughout your levels, but doesn't encompass every level in your career. If they did this, I could see how the multiplayer part of the game could be justified...along with the monthly fee.
How will it play out? I have no idea. BioWare is certainly putting a lot of emphasis on the story, but that is, most likely, due to the fact that it is their Trademark. BioWare is known for their stories and it is what they aim to bring into the MMO Genre.
But yes, I, too would like a lot more info on the Multiplayer aspects of the game. How will grouping work, will there be a Padawan/Master system, how much of the game can -NOT- be soloed etc. Until then, sadly, there is nothing we can do but speculate.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Do you have a link? Man, that Wookie Poop Bucket will look SO cool next to my Bantha DooDoo Bag!!!!
"When people don't know much about something, they tend to fill in the blanks the way they want them to be filled in. They are almost always disappointed." - Will Wright
Read more here.
I have two problems with this press release first is that I am getting a headache trying to think of a LucasArts game that had a great storyline and the second is that I didn't read anything in this that we didn't already know.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
I often wonder about the people who fear more single player content in mmos if there are thousands of you out there who like t group why not get together and group regardless? Most of these games don't force you to solo they just make content that can be solo'd I for one have had so many bad experience with groups that I am loathe to play games that I'm forced to group in they're usually filled with wanna be leet drama queens who cry about the simplest mistake a person makes wether it is real or imagined.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Amen Jax...
Solo friendly MMO? You mean a single player game with an online chat room, don't you? I think some of you have been completely confused about what an MMO is supposed to be, compared to how far off course they are now. What you should be playing is an RPG, not an MMORPG.
The whole point of the "MMO" part of the genre is for the game to be online with thousands of other players who you should have to interact with for most of your needs. Otherwise, why are we paying a monthly subscription fee for these game to be online? Seems to me that these game companies could save themselves a ton of money in server / cluster technology if they would just put chat servers online, and leave the rest of the game offline on the user's computer. That's what many of them amount to these days anyway.
There seems to be a whole market of gamers out there who have no desire whatsoever to have contact with other players, and indeed would like to rob the rest of us of all the community based MMO features. I think you people strayed into the wrong genre.
You people sure can be dense when it serves your purpose. We all know that the monthly fees pay for the servers, bandwidth and the content updates. Your whole notion of forced community is a ridiculous argument.
The point is to play in an ever changing online world that is occupied by thousands of other players in which you can interact with as you please. Group, trio, duo, solo, guild, real life friends, imaginary firends....etc. I'm not sure where you get the idea that MMO stands for forced interaction. I mean, I was introduced to MMO's by EverQuest, which was the motherload of forced grouping. That game went through more than 2 million subs and never kept more than 450,000 at it's peak. How much you want to make a bet that was due to the hardcore, forced grouping, raid or die mentality?
WoW is a farily solo friendly game and yet it focuses too much on raiding, despite the fact that they admitted that less than 20% of their player base actually participates in raiding or the fact that people really enjoy soloing in that game. You have your forced grouping games on the market and you have tons more on the horizon, why the heck do you feel the need to persuade Bioware to do the same? Are we anti-social soloers not allowed to have our perfect MMO?
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Solo friendly MMO? You mean a single player game with an online chat room, don't you? I think some of you have been completely confused about what an MMO is supposed to be, compared to how far off course they are now. What you should be playing is an RPG, not an MMORPG.
The whole point of the "MMO" part of the genre is for the game to be online with thousands of other players who you should have to interact with for most of your needs. Otherwise, why are we paying a monthly subscription fee for these game to be online? Seems to me that these game companies could save themselves a ton of money in server / cluster technology if they would just put chat servers online, and leave the rest of the game offline on the user's computer. That's what many of them amount to these days anyway.
There seems to be a whole market of gamers out there who have no desire whatsoever to have contact with other players, and indeed would like to rob the rest of us of all the community based MMO features. I think you people strayed into the wrong genre.
You people sure can be dense when it serves your purpose. We all know that the monthly fees pay for the servers, bandwidth and the content updates. Your whole notion of forced community is a ridiculous argument.
The point is to play in an ever changing online world that is occupied by thousands of other players in which you can interact with as you please. Group, trio, duo, solo, guild, real life friends, imaginary firends....etc. I'm not sure where you get the idea that MMO stands for forced interaction. I mean, I was introduced to MMO's by EverQuest, which was the motherload of forced grouping. That game went through more than 2 million subs and never kept more than 450,000 at it's peak. How much you want to make a bet that was due to the hardcore, forced grouping, raid or die mentality?
WoW is a farily solo friendly game and yet it focuses too much on raiding, despite the fact that they admitted that less than 20% of their player base actually participates in raiding or the fact that people really enjoy soloing in that game. You have your forced grouping games on the market and you have tons more on the horizon, why the heck do you feel the need to persuade Bioware to do the same? Are we anti-social soloers not allowed to have our perfect MMO?
the 'skill' required in raiding is two-fold.
1 lots of time and patience to do the same exact "content" 50 times over.
2 the ability to read from a script and perform YOUR scripted actions repeatedly.
raiding is not anything that requires actual SKILL. that is the point that everyone is missing. raiding's purpose (as stated by numerous devs/spokespersons of various MMOs) is to provide that forced social interaction. BECAUSE, if you socialize and make friends in-game, then you'll continue to repeat the same boring-as-hell content long long after it ceases to be fun, so that you can continue to be friends and cool with your online buddies.
i'm not disagreeing with the quoted, just adding to it.
MMO, or MMORPG does not imply forced grouping of any type. the forced grouping comes from the forced social interaction i stated above.
so yeah, if it's only 1% of 10 million people that are raiding... just imagine the money wow COULD be making if it stopped making dungeons that no one wants to play? but hey, kaplan and pardo are just incredibly lucky that blizzard NORTH already had an incredibly strong following and that a lot of players are fine with 1 out of 3 dungeons being content they'll never even bother with. heck, i don't even like 10 man groups.
but, that's because of the way these fantasy-games are... i have no problems being part of a group of hundreds in fleet battles in eve. or even a roaming band of just like 30 people, chilling and killing for hours.
i'm curious though, what EXACTLY is the content that people who want to semi-solo in mmos, would be stealing? the raid content that 1% of the player-base utilizes?
bleh, whatever.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Okay, for the sake of argument, let's suppose I'm a complete and utter douchebag.
Furthermore, let's also assume I have twice as much spare time as you, know the game inside and out, and have at least ten times as many friends — all of whom are my equals both in competence and obnoxiousness.
Still want to have to interact with me for most of your needs?
I often wonder about the people who fear more single player content in mmos if there are thousands of you out there who like t group why not get together and group regardless? Most of these games don't force you to solo they just make content that can be solo'd I for one have had so many bad experience with groups that I am loathe to play games that I'm forced to group in they're usually filled with wanna be leet drama queens who cry about the simplest mistake a person makes wether it is real or imagined.
I'm not necessarily talking about group questing, although I prefer to quest with people. Your poor experiences grouping with others probably stems from the fact that the games you choose to play are full of complete morons. For example, the crowd of people that populates LOTRO seems to be much more mature in general than the people playing WoW in my opinion. I hated grouping in WoW because it was full of clowns, idiots and troublemakers.
I did not have this problem in other MMO's I played. SWG had a very community driven, very mature population as well, which not coincentally, quit the game as soon as SOE tried to make SWG more WoW-like by dumbing it down for mass consumption. The majority of the players still sticking around SWG now are the same kind of PvP-whoring, smack talking kids we see in WoW. The mature players who are looking for a challenging, community-driven game have been left wandering the digital desert of the MMO genre ever since, trying to find a new home.
As I have mentioned in other posts, when you design a game to target WoW's subscription numbers, you have to target the lowest common denominator of player. This is marketing 101 class. The wider your audience, the simpler your product has to be to use. If I fear anything it is any new game in development that says they are going after WoW's sub numbers. There is a market for this obviously, but I am not in it, so when I see a game like SWTOR which, so far, seems to be taking the easy route again, I get bummed.
Even though I plan to hang around here and get my view into these discussions, I have already come to realize that I will probably never be happy with any of the big-name games that are being marketed to everyone. I have to keep my eye out for niche games similar to EVE in concept. EVE is an unforgivingly complex game that is doing quite well with a thriving community, and the devs are able to take chances and continue to introduce complex features. They have a smaller community, and they are still making a boat load of money, keeping their player base around for YEARS, not months. The only game I see in development now that is going for a niche market, is Earthrise. That's the only one I have hope for anymore.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Okay, for the sake of argument, let's suppose I'm a complete and utter douchebag.
Furthermore, let's also assume I have twice as much spare time as you, know the game inside and out, and have at least ten times as many friends — all of whom are my equals both in competence and obnoxiousness.
Still want to have to interact with me for most of your needs?
I worded my original post poorly. You know, I'm not even saying that SWTOR needs to have "forced" anything. All I want to see is better, richer crafting and some type of system that makes social encounters (such as SWG entertainers) a useful part of the game. If they add those features, and make them fun, the magic will happen on its own. You want to pay a monthly fee to play an online game and avoid other people, go for it. I just don't want these games to ONLY cater to a style of play that is 99% solo combat, 1% everything else.
What has been one of the biggest complaints about MMOS the last few years? It's that they are shallow and boring "clones". Everyone complains that all they have to do is run around these giant quest theme parks until level cap. They get bored, and usually leave. The reason is because the game developers have decided not to develop any other aspect of the game, and community features have been completely dropped. All we have now are weak, simple and unfulfilling excuses for crafting / auction house systems. Everything else is quest, quest quest, instance, quest, quest, level cap followed by rerolling a new class or quit the game....which happens in months now because the A.D.D children out there can't be bothered to accomplish something that takes more than a month or two of game play.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I'm failing to see where exactly other players even come into play. If you have your own NPC party, and the biggest part of the game is a storyline wrapped around you, why would there even be any need for social interaction?
The more I hear about this game, the more I don't like. I mean it sounds like a great RPG, but I'm not seeing anything MMO about it....yet.
I can pay $7.95 for a paperback book/novel in any book store that I can read in 1 day, why would I pay $15 per month to read a Book/novel spaced out over 3 months or more?
Seriously, I can buy hundreds of Star Wars books for 7.95, why would I pay more for a game that tells the same story?
You people act as if grouping is the only way for players to interact as a community. You couldn't be more wrong. Grouping is only a small aspect and not even close to the most important aspect of community. If a game is fun and others enjoy it as well, that creates community. It doesn't cater to one specific play style. I'm so tired of you always falling back on the fallacy that soloing equals anti-social behavior, when it's obvious that soloers interact with others constantly via chat, drive by heals and buffs, cooperating with others without grouping, buying goods, selling goods, building a house in a neighborhood and the list goes on. You guys behave like tyrants with your play style.
Soloers have never expected others to solo if they don't want to and yet groupers are always insisting on game mechanics that force everyone to group whether they like it or not. That groupers somehow deserve the best loot, the best content, the lion's share of everything, even though they pay the same amount as every soloer out there. For once, we deserve a MMO that justifies the monthly fee we pay, because I'm sick and tired of supporting group / raid content with my subscription fees.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Okay, for the sake of argument, let's suppose I'm a complete and utter douchebag.
Furthermore, let's also assume I have twice as much spare time as you, know the game inside and out, and have at least ten times as many friends — all of whom are my equals both in competence and obnoxiousness.
Still want to have to interact with me for most of your needs?
I worded my original post poorly. You know, I'm not even saying that SWTOR needs to have "forced" anything. All I want to see is better, richer crafting and some type of system that makes social encounters (such as SWG entertainers) a useful part of the game. If they add those features, and make them fun, the magic will happen on its own. You want to pay a monthly fee to play an online game and avoid other people, go for it. I just don't want these games to ONLY cater to a style of play that is 99% solo combat, 1% everything else.
What has been one of the biggest complaints about MMOS the last few years? It's that they are shallow and boring "clones". Everyone complains that all they have to do is run around these giant quest theme parks until level cap. They get bored, and usually leave. The reason is because the game developers have decided not to develop any other aspect of the game, and community features have been completely dropped. All we have now are weak, simple and unfulfilling excuses for crafting / auction house systems. Everything else is quest, quest quest, instance, quest, quest, level cap followed by rerolling a new class or quit the game....which happens in months now because the A.D.D children out there can't be bothered to accomplish something that takes more than a month or two of game play.
These are the loudest complaints from the minority of MMO players. WoW, the shallowest game out there is 11 million strong and growing still. These people obviously like the more casual approach to gameplay. The days of EQesque, hardcore, irritating, boring, grind fest games have seen their last days in the limelight. Sure there will be more to come, but they will be small, niche games that may not be able to survive in today's market. Sad for you, but good for the majority of us who are looking to be entertained, not punished with ridiculous hardcore timesinks and irritating game mechanics.
By the way, questing for experience is much more preferable to the old EQ style of camping mobs hour after hour because they give you the best exp per hour and then spending your every waking moment at max level doing the same time wasting, boring assed raids over and over just so you can decorate your e-peen.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Okay, I'll bite. What exactly does that mean? Can you be more specific, ideally without an unnecessary (not to mention condescending) rant about A.D.D. children?
I agree. I was just waiting for this article to come by and prove my fears I already had with the announcement article(s) a while back.
Somehow they really can't let go of the WoW dreadmill and let it go and do something different.
I mean for christ sake!
1. They got the Star Wars IP, wich guarantees a jitload of box sales on IP alone already.
2. They know people loved the old SWG pre-NGE wich was a sandbox game and litterly HATED the game to be turned into a WoW clone Themepark!
What does Bioware do?
Let's make a WoW clone Themepark MMO and slap in the Guild Wars companion system to kill the last bit of MMO feel left as well and basically just turn it into a SPOG with glorified chat room.
Seriously, if this is going to be the future of MMO gaming... then Im done with the genre.
I agree. I was just waiting for this article to come by and prove my fears I already had with the announcement article(s) a while back.
Somehow they really can't let go of the WoW dreadmill and let it go and do something different.
I mean for christ sake!
1. They got the Star Wars IP, wich guarantees a jitload of box sales on IP alone already.
2. They know people loved the old SWG pre-NGE wich was a sandbox game and litterly HATED the game to be turned into a WoW clone Themepark!
What does Bioware do?
Let's make a WoW clone Themepark MMO and slap in the Guild Wars companion system to kill the last bit of MMO feel left as well and basically just turn it into a SPOG with glorified chat room.
Seriously, if this is going to be the future of MMO gaming... then Im done with the genre.
Totally agree, and I am already done with the genre if Darkfall doesn't deliver. There is nothing left for true MMO gamers. Have fun with your kiddie WoW worlds everyone else. And keep scratching your head wondering why anyone that's played anything different dislikes the game.
Darkfall Travelogues!
I agree. I was just waiting for this article to come by and prove my fears I already had with the announcement article(s) a while back.
Somehow they really can't let go of the WoW dreadmill and let it go and do something different.
I mean for christ sake!
1. They got the Star Wars IP, wich guarantees a jitload of box sales on IP alone already.
2. They know people loved the old SWG pre-NGE wich was a sandbox game and litterly HATED the game to be turned into a WoW clone Themepark!
Some people loved that. And to be quite honest, it wasn't the most successful MMO to begin with. Rose-tinted glasses won't help here.
What does Bioware do?
Let's make a WoW clone Themepark MMO and slap in the Guild Wars companion system to kill the last bit of MMO feel left as well and basically just turn it into a SPOG with glorified chat room.
Did I miss an announcement regarding the companion system? Could you link it to me please?
Seriously, if this is going to be the future of MMO gaming... then Im done with the genre.
Sounds like you already are, but I would point you in the direction of: Darkfall, Earthrise, Mortal Online and Fallen Earth for alternatives to this type of game.
I hope the games provided at the end give you more satisfaction. I would also hope you do not continue to make false or unsubstantiated claims about a game again. That way, we can all be happy.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
I agree. I was just waiting for this article to come by and prove my fears I already had with the announcement article(s) a while back.
Somehow they really can't let go of the WoW dreadmill and let it go and do something different.
I mean for christ sake!
1. They got the Star Wars IP, wich guarantees a jitload of box sales on IP alone already.
2. They know people loved the old SWG pre-NGE wich was a sandbox game and litterly HATED the game to be turned into a WoW clone Themepark!
What does Bioware do?
Let's make a WoW clone Themepark MMO and slap in the Guild Wars companion system to kill the last bit of MMO feel left as well and basically just turn it into a SPOG with glorified chat room.
Seriously, if this is going to be the future of MMO gaming... then Im done with the genre.
Totally agree, and I am already done with the genre if Darkfall doesn't deliver. There is nothing left for true MMO gamers. Have fun with your kiddie WoW worlds everyone else. And keep scratching your head wondering why anyone that's played anything different dislikes the game.
Oh boy. Do I want to enter that discussion again? Nah...i think I'll leave you to your elitist attitude.
It's just amusing by now.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Totally agree, and I am already done with the genre if Darkfall doesn't deliver. There is nothing left for true MMO gamers. Have fun with your kiddie WoW worlds everyone else. And keep scratching your head wondering why anyone that's played anything different dislikes the game.
The whole problem with Bioware is that a very large part of their fanbase are hardcore KotOR fans and rather see a KotOR3 then an MMO version.
When you read the reaction in every article posted there, two obvious points dominate in player reactions:
1. Will it be without monthly fees!
2. Can I play the game alone!
Ofcourse point 1 isn't going to happen, but appearently Bioware has taken point 2 litterly and seriously as what most people want.
Wich is utterly retarded, as why in earth would you listen to Single Player Game fans, instead of true MMO fans??
So Bioware seems to be listening more to their diehard KotOR fans, then to the MMO fans who grave for a true SW MMO! MMO fans who actually know what an MMO is and at least prepared to stick for the long haul and pay the monthly fees!
They really don't see that all those KotOR fans, ones that will ditch the game after the free 30 days have run out, are really not the fans they should listen to.
Real shame!
EDIT: @SingsOfDeath: The companion system is mentioned in the last alinea of the article.
And yes, Star Wars Galaxies was actually one of the most popular MMO's in 2003 - 2004. Till the CU and NGE hit.
The companion system only allows you to adventure with one at a time. You cannot comprise a full group with all of the companions that you have come across. Doesn't GW let you use multiple mercenaries at once?
Battle.net players cried about WoW not being a single player game and yet in the end, all of those people fell in love with their first MMO. Just because they intend to make a casual friendly game does not make it a WoW clone. Bioware has a very distinct flavor that Blizzard has never been able to emulate. These guys are very smart and very creative and have an outstanding history of making FUN games.
The market is already chock full of hardcore style games. It's a smart move on their part to compete with the fewer casual MMOs out there, since that automatically leads to a greater chance at a larger market share. Besides, their single player games have always been pretty darn casual, why change what has worked for them so far.
By the way, what exactly is a "True MMO Fan"? Are you born one? Do you have some kind of MMO gene? Because, as far as I can tell, MMO fans come from all walks of life and different gaming backgrounds or even no gaming background at all. If you seriously think that that kind of elitist appeal will have any influence on any developing company, then you are in for a rude awakening.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I don't think the "groupers" are saying that grouping should be forced on others or is the only way to play an MMO, because by God that has been proven wrong many times over with games like WoW and LoTRO. I think "groupers" are just pointing out that we'd like to hear what makes this game an MMORPG worthy of a subscription fee.
The reason that question is being asked is because by this time, most companies have given a full list of features that they "plan" to have by release. Always in this list, are features that require others, which in the end makes the game worth the monthly fee. These features may take the form of PvP, Raiding, Player Economy, Crafting, Quests and a host of extra features like housing and etc.
ToR hasn't listed any features that even justifies being hooked up to the internet. I'm not bashing or berating Bioware for this; I'm patient enough to wait and see. I have a lot of trust and faith in Bioware to make a great game. They're not dummies and even the CEO has played MMORPGs, which means they know the features that justify monthly fees. I bet we'll see a list of features in the years to come.
The point is this is a MMORPG, which means it needs some features to justify the payment every month. No one in their right mind will pay for a single player RPG every month; it's just idiotic.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
I don't think the "groupers" are saying that grouping should be forced on others or is the only way to play an MMO, because by God that has been proven wrong many times over with games like WoW and LoTRO. I think "groupers" are just pointing out that we'd like to hear what makes this game an MMORPG worthy of a subscription fee.
The reason that question is being asked is because by this time, most companies have given a full list of features that they "plan" to have by release. Always in this list, are features that require others, which in the end makes the game worth the monthly fee. These features may take the form of PvP, Raiding, Player Economy, Crafting, Quests and a host of extra features like housing and etc.
ToR hasn't listed any features that even justifies being hooked up to the internet. I'm not bashing or berating Bioware for this; I'm patient enough to wait and see. I have a lot of trust and faith in Bioware to make a great game. They're not dummies and even the CEO has played MMORPGs, which means they know the features that justify monthly fees. I bet we'll see a list of features in the years to come.
The point is this is a MMORPG, which means it needs some features to justify the payment every month. No one in their right mind will pay for a single player RPG every month; it's just idiotic.
It has been stated that there will be PvP, Realm vs. Realm and Raiding. So that's three right there. o.O Quests is a given. As for the rest. Yes, I agree. Wait and see.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7