Originally posted by link35 If you are referring to hotjazz as a carebear than I think you misunderstood his post, he was being sarcastic because Alterac Valley is a pvp battle ground so what he is trying to say is that worrying about getting killed in DF is as dumb as worrying about getting killed in AV because you will obviously get ganked one time or another
ah the sarcasm was lost in text sent through the internet, thanks for the headsup my bad hotjazz.
EDIT: oh... THAT alterac valley, sorry only played on a private server with no battlegrounds... i get it hahahaha....
Really will just have to wait for release to see what happens. The game mechanics of the allignment system, how big the world is, and (in a sandbox) how the rules of the server develop among players will determine if it is a gankfest. Will it be harsh and filled with people trying to kill you? Yup. But there will also be ways to fight back at them as they have just as much to lose. Really is no good answer to support gankfest or not gankfest...i would wait till release. For this topic you cant say wait till open beta, since chars would probably be wiped and your actions wont be remembered so more people will probably be a little more open with their targets
I agree. No way to tell till NDA is dropped.
However, someone is not going to be happy. If the "penalties" are not that harsh, it's going to be a gankfest, and will put off some players. If the "penalties" are very very harsh, it will upset the gankers. Can't please both.
Hopefully they err on the side of pissing off the gankers, because most FFA servers of other games have very low pop servers.
Really will just have to wait for release to see what happens. The game mechanics of the allignment system, how big the world is, and (in a sandbox) how the rules of the server develop among players will determine if it is a gankfest. Will it be harsh and filled with people trying to kill you? Yup. But there will also be ways to fight back at them as they have just as much to lose. Really is no good answer to support gankfest or not gankfest...i would wait till release. For this topic you cant say wait till open beta, since chars would probably be wiped and your actions wont be remembered so more people will probably be a little more open with their targets
I agree. No way to tell till NDA is dropped.
However, someone is not going to be happy. If the "penalties" are not that harsh, it's going to be a gankfest, and will put off some players. If the "penalties" are very very harsh, it will upset the gankers. Can't please both.
Hopefully they err on the side of pissing off the gankers, because most FFA servers of other games have very low pop servers.
this isn't just a "normal" ffa server though, this game is CENTERED on ffa pvp, not just something it adds on and makes a seperate server for.
The biggest difference from other games and this games in terms of ganking is that you can fight back... and it you can lower the probability of it happening ALOT by playing smart (traveling in groups, joining a strong clan, centering you're activities in npc cities, avoiding popular routes, etc.)
Good question. In my opinion, it is one of the only legitimate concerns for this game. First of all, the world is huge. What this means is that players will tend to congregate towards main cities, player cities, and other places that are well suited for people. So if you like to explore and go out solo, there is a good chance you won't run into too many people (depending on how far away from the social-hubs you get). The people that you will run across also have a low probability of being a ganker. The reason for this is simple. There is a far greater chance that someone will find targets to gank near the social-hubs, therefore said person would be inclined to also be near the social-hubs. You cannot really tell another person's strength. When you mouse over them, their name will appear, but that's about all that you'll get. When deciding to gank someone, it'll truly be a big decision (especially far away from social-hubs!) because you won't know if you are about to get destroyed yourself and lose all of your stuff. True gankers won't worry about this, however. The semi-gankers will. There are some penalties for ganking. When you gank someone of the same faction, you lose standing in your faction (I use the word faction, but its meaning is more along the lines of "race"). When you lose enough faction, you are basically branded a "Player-Killer". This means that guards in the main cities will kill you on site. Therefore, the life of a PKer is a very dangerous one. Novice players will simply not be able to manage this kind of gameplay (no matter how "hardcore" they think they are). It is said that it is easy to become hated, but it is very hard to get your standing back up to normal. The game features FPS-style combat and is not gear or totally skill dependent. Someone with no skills and gear could take down someone with many skills and good gear. Granted, this assumes the new player is good at fighting and the long-term player is bad at it. Your personal skill will have a far greater role in determining whether or not someone else kills you. Because the game is immersion-focused, it'll be hard to spot you! Seriously, they have to be able to find you to gank you . If someone starts fighting you, you could potentially run away, hide in grass, hide behind a rock, etc. Since you will be out in the wilderness most-likely, I would suggest learning how to camouflage yourself and you will maximize your chances of not being ganked. Overall, many people think they are "hardcore". That is the one downside of this game (the community). In order to succeed as the game they are trying to make (not numbers of subscriptions, but immersion), there needs to be ganking, but not so much that there isn't a "world" anymore, but instead a bigger version of counter-strike. I don't think it will be too big a problem though. Darkfall's mechanics make the life of a PKer very hard (as it should be), but it can be done. Honestly looking at the game, I would say that you need to be nice to other players. I think most killings (outside of guild-city pvp) will occur because people will talk smack to each other and will seek revenge. I'm not saying that you won't ever be ganked though. You should note that it will definitely happen at some point. You should see this as a positive though. It adds danger and mystique to the world. The interactions amongst players will be what makes this a good or bad MMO.
nice post I would hope you are right, but.. have you played a full loot mmo?
as soon as the prospect of taking other peoples stuff comes it corrupts people. my personal experience is only RL/long term friends are those you can trust. if you are equiped with something worth having expect to get attacked on site by even a usually friendly person.
I would hope aDventurine would tweak the allignment/race/faction system to balance it. I would rather is was generally a faction/race war, but with the possibility of betrayal. how much this is so depends on how the system is implemented, how much betrayal is punished.
Yes sir. In my experience, taking other people's stuff is just like taking crap that fills your inventory. Sure, sometimes you might genuinely take someone's stuff and use it, but most of the time probably not (assuming that you already are using gear in order to increase your chances of actually killing someone). If you want to be a jerk though, you could take their stuff just to take it, but that gets back to my revenge thing. Since Darkfall isn't gear-centric, I don't expect people to become corrupted by gear-hording. Instead, some will become corrupted by simply being an ass
______________________ Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
Good question. In my opinion, it is one of the only legitimate concerns for this game. First of all, the world is huge. What this means is that players will tend to congregate towards main cities, player cities, and other places that are well suited for people. So if you like to explore and go out solo, there is a good chance you won't run into too many people (depending on how far away from the social-hubs you get). The people that you will run across also have a low probability of being a ganker. The reason for this is simple. There is a far greater chance that someone will find targets to gank near the social-hubs, therefore said person would be inclined to also be near the social-hubs. You cannot really tell another person's strength. When you mouse over them, their name will appear, but that's about all that you'll get. When deciding to gank someone, it'll truly be a big decision (especially far away from social-hubs!) because you won't know if you are about to get destroyed yourself and lose all of your stuff. True gankers won't worry about this, however. The semi-gankers will. There are some penalties for ganking. When you gank someone of the same faction, you lose standing in your faction (I use the word faction, but its meaning is more along the lines of "race"). When you lose enough faction, you are basically branded a "Player-Killer". This means that guards in the main cities will kill you on site. Therefore, the life of a PKer is a very dangerous one. Novice players will simply not be able to manage this kind of gameplay (no matter how "hardcore" they think they are). It is said that it is easy to become hated, but it is very hard to get your standing back up to normal. The game features FPS-style combat and is not gear or totally skill dependent. Someone with no skills and gear could take down someone with many skills and good gear. Granted, this assumes the new player is good at fighting and the long-term player is bad at it. Your personal skill will have a far greater role in determining whether or not someone else kills you. Because the game is immersion-focused, it'll be hard to spot you! Seriously, they have to be able to find you to gank you . If someone starts fighting you, you could potentially run away, hide in grass, hide behind a rock, etc. Since you will be out in the wilderness most-likely, I would suggest learning how to camouflage yourself and you will maximize your chances of not being ganked. Overall, many people think they are "hardcore". That is the one downside of this game (the community). In order to succeed as the game they are trying to make (not numbers of subscriptions, but immersion), there needs to be ganking, but not so much that there isn't a "world" anymore, but instead a bigger version of counter-strike. I don't think it will be too big a problem though. Darkfall's mechanics make the life of a PKer very hard (as it should be), but it can be done. Honestly looking at the game, I would say that you need to be nice to other players. I think most killings (outside of guild-city pvp) will occur because people will talk smack to each other and will seek revenge. I'm not saying that you won't ever be ganked though. You should note that it will definitely happen at some point. You should see this as a positive though. It adds danger and mystique to the world. The interactions amongst players will be what makes this a good or bad MMO.
nice post I would hope you are right, but.. have you played a full loot mmo?
as soon as the prospect of taking other peoples stuff comes it corrupts people. my personal experience is only RL/long term friends are those you can trust. if you are equiped with something worth having expect to get attacked on site by even a usually friendly person.
I would hope aDventurine would tweak the allignment/race/faction system to balance it. I would rather is was generally a faction/race war, but with the possibility of betrayal. how much this is so depends on how the system is implemented, how much betrayal is punished.
Yes sir. In my experience, taking other people's stuff is just like taking crap that fills your inventory. Sure, sometimes you might genuinely take someone's stuff and use it, but most of the time probably not (assuming that you already are using gear in order to increase your chances of actually killing someone). If you want to be a jerk though, you could take their stuff just to take it, but that gets back to my revenge thing. Since Darkfall isn't gear-centric, I don't expect people to become corrupted by gear-hording. Instead, some will become corrupted by simply being an ass
We shall see. If it's really not gear centric, then why not go naked. If gear isn't that big of a deal, then why bother with it?
I hate to say it, but I'm pretty sure that's exactly what it will become.
Back when UO launched, the player base was mostly RPG-nerds (like myself to a certain extent). PLayers seemed to be a biot older, more mature. Don't misunderstand me, i still hd nights were it seemed like I was doing nothing but getting killed by PK's (player-killers). But, the overall MMORPG player base was a much smaller group of gamers.
Now, thanks to WoW, and such, the genre has been mainstreamed. It's stacked to the rafters with middle and high school year old gits who will kill you and emote sitting on your head or spitting on you, then corpse-camp your body or some other silly crap. I think its a better outlet for their angst then walking into their highschool and shooting all of their classmates.
/shrug we will see what we see. I hope its more like the old days of ultima, but it really can't ever be like that again, as the overall mmorpg community has radically changed over the past 11 years or so.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone www.spankybus.com -3d Artist & Compositor -Writer -Professional Amature
- There are no levels - The world is large, non-linear, and non-quest driven. There are no quests you "have" to do. There are no mobs you "have" to slay. Nearly every player kills VanCleef in the Deadmines in their teens level on their way to leveling up in WoW. There is no "leveling up" in DF. Pick a random direction, walk in it, fight whatever you find to skill up. Or harvest whatever you find to skill up for crafting. People camping the goblin cave? Go deep into the forest and fight boars.
Skill up=killing things or questing to gain exp to get new/better skills, better stats etc.
Level up=killing things or questing to gain exp to get new/better skills, better stats, etc.
What's the difference? You didn't have to kill VanCleef in WOW. Who said you did? You could "skill up" just fine doing something else.
Honestly, as long as you have to spend time doing whatever to improve yor charcter or gain new skills, it doesn't matter what it's called. What matters most is what you find fun, or at least less annoying, to get that exp.
It really is quite simple, if you are already complaining about ganking, griefing and looting then the game is obvisouly not meant for you. So rather than bash the game for what it is intended to do just find a different game to play. There are plenty of games that offer mild PvP styles of play where there are no real consequences for dying. DF is obviously trying to cater to the dedicated, hardcore PvPers, those that want an extreme game and a harsh existence. Until the game is actually released everything said about it will be pure speculation, nothing will be set in stone until the servers are live and the first gamers start filtering in, and even then things could slowly change.
I myself am looking for a game that will take me back to Asheron's Call and the Darktide server, that is why I am interested in the game. I am looking for all the extremes that it is supposed to have, whether it delivers or not will be found out shortly after launch. People that come onto the DF forums and basically trash the game have to expect the fans to react negativly towards them. The same thing goes to those that know what the game is supposed to offer, yet still feel the need to complain about it. The PvP is what it is, if you already don't like it then don't play the game. If you are on the fence, you at least owe it yourself to try the game out. If you are a fan, keep the faith.
DF is obviously trying to cater to the dedicated, hardcore PvPers, those that want an extreme game and a harsh existence. Until the game is actually released everything said about it will be pure speculation, nothing will be set in stone until the servers are live and the first gamers start filtering in, and even then things could slowly change. I myself am looking for a game that will take me back to Asheron's Call and the Darktide server, that is why I am interested in the game.
I think you are going to be sorely disappointed. Darkfall is not catering to hardcore PvPers looking for a harsh experience. if they were, then there would be true FFA PvP, not rules where if you kill some one you're not supposed to, you become KOS to guards, and you can't buy from merchants.
It really is quite simple, if you are already complaining about ganking, griefing and looting then the game is obvisouly not meant for you.
I think that says it all right there. Frankly, I think if you even have doubts or are on the fence, you should just pass. You dont have to wait and see anything - people are people and this is open PvP. They will gank you. They will take your stuff for no other reason than to destroy it. They will camp you. If this really bothers you and you want to solo...just pass. It may not happen all the time, but if you are upset at the mere thought, even a few actual occurances will be too many.
Me? Sounds great. Cant wait to get into the big picture politics, alliances and wars. No doubt I will be griefed from time to time. Just adds to overall excitement.
I think you are going to be sorely disappointed. Darkfall is not catering to hardcore PvPers looking for a harsh experience. if they were, then there would be true FFA PvP, not rules where if you kill some one you're not supposed to, you become KOS to guards, and you can't buy from merchants.
Those slaps on the wrist will mean nothing. Actually, they may be considered a badge of honor.
It really is quite simple, if you are already complaining about ganking, griefing and looting then the game is obvisouly not meant for you.
I think that says it all right there. Frankly, I think if you even have doubts or are on the fence, you should just pass. You dont have to wait and see anything - people are people and this is open PvP. They will gank you. They will take your stuff for no other reason than to destroy it. They will camp you. If this really bothers you and you want to solo...just pass. It may not happen all the time, but if you are upset at the mere thought, even a few actual occurances will be too many.
Me? Sounds great. Cant wait to get into the big picture politics, alliances and wars. No doubt I will be griefed from time to time. Just adds to overall excitement.
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
I think you are going to be sorely disappointed. Darkfall is not catering to hardcore PvPers looking for a harsh experience. if they were, then there would be true FFA PvP, not rules where if you kill some one you're not supposed to, you become KOS to guards, and you can't buy from merchants.
Once again making assumptions based solely on your own opinion of the game. Any game that goes the loot route is most definately catering to hardcore PvPers wanting a harsh existence. The rule sets are pretty much inconsequential, every game has a basic set of rules. The fact that you can go Full-PK, no matter the consequences, says this game is for the hardcore. The fact that you can be looted if you die says this game is for the hardcore. Everything about this game screams I am attempting to be more hardcore than the other PvP games out there. You are just trying to find someway to detract from the game, which is kind of sad as the game isn't even out yet. I always find myself chuckling at those that don't like the game or dont' intend to play it that come to the DF forums and try to throw there 2 cents into everything. You can always tell these people from the rest because no matter what you say, no matter how intelligent the post, they find some way to say something negative. In fact your response to mine served no other purpose other than to increase your post count, but if you feel you must increase that count feel free to fire back.
DF is obviously trying to cater to the dedicated, hardcore PvPers, those that want an extreme game and a harsh existence. Until the game is actually released everything said about it will be pure speculation, nothing will be set in stone until the servers are live and the first gamers start filtering in, and even then things could slowly change. I myself am looking for a game that will take me back to Asheron's Call and the Darktide server, that is why I am interested in the game.
I think you are going to be sorely disappointed. Darkfall is not catering to hardcore PvPers looking for a harsh experience. if they were, then there would be true FFA PvP, not rules where if you kill some one you're not supposed to, you become KOS to guards, and you can't buy from merchants.
I disagree.
having those rules adds consequences to player's actions. If they didn't have those rules then who would care? There would be no risk in kiling another player. And *yawn* to that.
If you want to kill another player you have to mean it and put it on the line.
It's a good thing.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I am a soloist and not a PvP player and I wouldnt have this game any other way. The rush of beating the gankmonkey cant be beat.
Make allies. Just because you solo doesnt mean you and other players cant watch eachothers back.
If you cant kill them at least make hard or impossible for them to kill you.
Have fun with with the challange, the chase, the uncertainty.
(You'll have to change your mindset when it comes to dealing with PKs) They win only when they get you down, dont let them get to you. When they know that death doesnt bother you in the slightest they wont bother with you.
Originally posted by Jenaka Skill up=killing things or questing to gain exp to get new/better skills, better stats etc. Level up=killing things or questing to gain exp to get new/better skills, better stats, etc. What's the difference? You didn't have to kill VanCleef in WOW. Who said you did? You could "skill up" just fine doing something else. Honestly, as long as you have to spend time doing whatever to improve yor charcter or gain new skills, it doesn't matter what it's called. What matters most is what you find fun, or at least less annoying, to get that exp.
Darkfall:
Use the skill or perform an action to raise your "skill level", from 1 to 99. As you swing your sword, you raise your "sword" skill. As you cast spells, you raise your "insert school here" magic skill.
In Darkfall, the difference between "skill levels" is much less pronounced than in other games: eg WoW, where even 10 levels difference is a severe, almost unsurmountable disadvantage. As stated by the developers, it is possible for a skilled newbie to overcome a lesser skilled veteran. It is possible for several newbies to overcome a single veteran.
World of Warcraft:
You kill mobs or complete quests to gain experience points. Once you have gained enough experience points, you gain a level, confering bonuses to stats and unlocking new skills.
Attempting to fight players or monsters, or complete content of a much greater "level" than you is an excersise in futility. You are at a severe disadvantage to mobs 3 levels above you.
Fighting mobs or players, or completing quests below your "level" yield no rewards.
No, you don't have to do the Defias chain in Westfall when leveling up a character in WoW. But everybody does anyway. Why? Because the game is designed around people completing those quests to level up. The game is highly structured with appropriate level quests providing players a "leveling path" with their experience and loot rewards.
If you don't do the Defias chain, you have to grind mobs to gain exp. You have to get alternative equipment to the nice reward blues. While it's technically possible to grind to super high levels in WoW by hiding in the forest, killing boars... nobody does.
WoW is designed for players 1-10 to play in Elwynn Forest or Telldrassil or whatever. You can only play in that zone-level. If you try to go to Westfall or Loch Modan, you'll get your ass kicked. No amount of skill or teamwork can overcome this.
When you're level 11-20, you can only play in places like Westfall, Darkshore, Redridge. Playing in Elwynn Forest gets you nothing. That part of the world may as well not exist to you anymore; it's useless now.
What it all means, in the context of this thread:
- What if somebody camps Van Cleef (or other static location)?
In WoW, not doing the Defias chain gimps your progression. Since the game was designed so that appropriate level characters would do that quest, you miss out on a lot of easy exp and rewards that characters are intended to have.
In Darkfall, not doing "X quest here" is meaningless in a non-linear game. Quests are not a focus that drives the game. You can raise your skills by fighting anything. You can harvest resources anywhere.
- What if higher "level" chars gank lower "level" chars?
In WoW, this happens and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. The only consolation is that you don't lose anything.
In Darkfall, there are no "levels", and a skilled person with lower skill points or worse gear can still fight back against people with more skill points and better gear.
- What if higher "level" chars camp lower "level" chars?
In WoW, this happens and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. Run back to your corpse, and that rogue is stealthed right on top of it, ready to 1-hit ambush you again. Run back to your corpse and manage to rez? Then what? Continue killing the same mobs, because you have to kill these specific mobs for this specific quest? And wait for the ganker to hunt you down again? Do another quest in the same zone (because you have to do quests with specific objectives to level; the alternative is killing boars), while he finds you with his mount and kills you again? At best, you can travel all the way across the world (because zones in WoW are not logically contiguous by level), and do quests there? And pray there's not a ganker in that zone too?
In Darkfall, you can go whereever you want, as the game is neither linear nor quest driven. Got killed at the goblin caves north of town? You rez in town, so you don't corpse run back to get ganked again. So you go to the bank, get another set of equipment, and where you go next is up to you. Go fight murlocs in the village to the southwest? Fight bears to the east? Kill rats waaaaay to the west? Whatever you want. The only "unfinished business" you have back at the goblin cave to the north is whether or not you want to go back up there for some payback.
Originally posted by Jenaka Skill up=killing things or questing to gain exp to get new/better skills, better stats etc. Level up=killing things or questing to gain exp to get new/better skills, better stats, etc. What's the difference? You didn't have to kill VanCleef in WOW. Who said you did? You could "skill up" just fine doing something else. Honestly, as long as you have to spend time doing whatever to improve yor charcter or gain new skills, it doesn't matter what it's called. What matters most is what you find fun, or at least less annoying, to get that exp.
Darkfall:
Use the skill or perform an action to raise your "skill level", from 1 to 99. As you swing your sword, you raise your "sword" skill. As you cast spells, you raise your "insert school here" magic skill.
In Darkfall, the difference between "skill levels" is much less pronounced than in other games: eg WoW, where even 10 levels difference is a severe, almost unsurmountable disadvantage. As stated by the developers, it is possible for a skilled newbie to overcome a lesser skilled veteran. It is possible for several newbies to overcome a single veteran.
World of Warcraft:
You kill mobs or complete quests to gain experience points. Once you have gained enough experience points, you gain a level, confering bonuses to stats and unlocking new skills.
Attempting to fight players or monsters, or complete content of a much greater "level" than you is an excersise in futility. You are at a severe disadvantage to mobs 3 levels above you.
Fighting mobs or players, or completing quests below your "level" yield no rewards.
No, you don't have to do the Defias chain in Westfall when leveling up a character in WoW. But everybody does anyway. Why? Because the game is designed around people completing those quests to level up. The game is highly structured with appropriate level quests providing players a "leveling path" with their experience and loot rewards.
If you don't do the Defias chain, you have to grind mobs to gain exp. You have to get alternative equipment to the nice reward blues. While it's technically possible to grind to super high levels in WoW by hiding in the forest, killing boars... nobody does.
WoW is designed for players 1-10 to play in Elwynn Forest or Telldrassil or whatever. You can only play in that zone-level. If you try to go to Westfall or Loch Modan, you'll get your ass kicked. No amount of skill or teamwork can overcome this.
When you're level 11-20, you can only play in places like Westfall, Darkshore, Redridge. Playing in Elwynn Forest gets you nothing. That part of the world may as well not exist to you anymore; it's useless now.
What it all means, in the context of this thread:
- What if somebody camps Van Cleef (or other static location)?
In WoW, not doing the Defias chain gimps your progression. Since the game was designed so that appropriate level characters would do that quest, you miss out on a lot of easy exp and rewards that characters are intended to have.
In Darkfall, not doing "X quest here" is meaningless in a non-linear game. Quests are not a focus that drives the game. You can raise your skills by fighting anything. You can harvest resources anywhere.
- What if higher "level" chars gank lower "level" chars?
In WoW, this happens and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. The only consolation is that you don't lose anything.
In Darkfall, there are no "levels", and a skilled person with lower skill points or worse gear can still fight back against people with more skill points and better gear.
- What if higher "level" chars camp lower "level" chars?
In WoW, this happens and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. Run back to your corpse, and that rogue is stealthed right on top of it, ready to 1-hit ambush you again. Run back to your corpse and manage to rez? Then what? Continue killing the same mobs, because you have to kill these specific mobs for this specific quest? And wait for the ganker to hunt you down again? Do another quest in the same zone (because you have to do quests with specific objectives to level; the alternative is killing boars), while he finds you with his mount and kills you again? At best, you can travel all the way across the world (because zones in WoW are not logically contiguous by level), and do quests there? And pray there's not a ganker in that zone too?
In Darkfall, you can go whereever you want, as the game is neither linear nor quest driven. Got killed at the goblin caves north of town? You rez in town, so you don't corpse run back to get ganked again. So you go to the bank, get another set of equipment, and where you go next is up to you. Go fight murlocs in the village to the southwest? Fight bears to the east? Kill rats waaaaay to the west? Whatever you want. The only "unfinished business" you have back at the goblin cave to the north is whether or not you want to go back up there for some payback.
So true. The 'Level' based MMO gives so much injustice to online worlds.
How will this game not become a gankfest? YOU take control. YOU play smart. I am a soloist and not a PvP player and I wouldnt have this game any other way. The rush of beating the gankmonkey cant be beat.
Make allies. Just because you solo doesnt mean you and other players cant watch eachothers back. If you cant kill them at least make hard or impossible for them to kill you. Have fun with with the challange, the chase, the uncertainty. (You'll have to change your mindset when it comes to dealing with PKs) They win only when they get you down, dont let them get to you. When they know that death doesnt bother you in the slightest they wont bother with you.
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
So many things seem so appealing about Darkfall. I have read a lot about the game. I have seen some cool videos. However I wonder how will Darkfall not end up just a big gank fest. I solo a lot in mmos and in their description they say play as you want total freedom even be a loner. How will this be possbile with the totally open pvp play. Seems like it will be hard to get anything done. Seems like totally open pvp does not compliment total freedom the way the game is claiming. Can anyone clarify this a bit for me?
MASSIVE MASSIVE world + harsh alignment penalties+ no radar or names overhead = less ganking
I hate these whiny posts about a game being a gankfest, its a pvp game. If your worried about that, go play Hello Kitty Online. Quit being such a wuss.
Well not sure if someone else pointed these things out already but here goes anyways.
How will this game not be a gankfest?
1) The faction system: While this will not eliminate ganking it will reduce it. Killing those within your own faction results in some penalties many will not want to deal with. While it hinders you from killing those within your own faction it does not keep you from PvP'ing.
Factions are:
A) Alfar
Mahirim and Orc
C) Human, Mirdain and Dwarf
2) No level indicators: There's no giant bullseye floating above your head advertising the fact that your 20 levels below your would be attacker. They have no way to gauge your skill level other than making assumptions based on how your gear looks which is something you can use to your advantage if your smart.
3) Consequence's A.K.A. Full loot: If you do decide to attack someone the thing you have to remember is that you yourself may die. While gear isn't the be all end all thing it is in other games it will be an inconvience to lose everything you have on you. Having that little voice in the back of your head saying don't do it will cut down a bit more.
4) Mob AI: Seems the AI in DarkFall is going to be pretty challenging, I know for a fact some PvP and don't like PvE much at all because of the simple fact the Mobs are rarely a challenge in most games while players on the other hand offer prey that is challenging. In DarkFall the AI sounds almost as challenging as a player. Hearing about goblins Kiting players made my day lol.
It's not realy about limiting the ganking so much its more about giving an alternate outlet for that style of gameplay. If you make a PvP game and punish people for PvP'ing no one is truely happy with it. If you focus that PvP need a bit it is possible to appease both sides of the fence to some extent. I am not saying everyone will be happy, but more than usual will be happy.
Other than that all I can say is we will have to wait and see.
So many things seem so appealing about Darkfall. I have read a lot about the game. I have seen some cool videos. However I wonder how will Darkfall not end up just a big gank fest. I solo a lot in mmos and in their description they say play as you want total freedom even be a loner. How will this be possbile with the totally open pvp play. Seems like it will be hard to get anything done. Seems like totally open pvp does not compliment total freedom the way the game is claiming. Can anyone clarify this a bit for me?
MASSIVE MASSIVE world + harsh alignment penalties+ no radar or names overhead = less ganking
Good answer right to the point. I was thinking that the size of the world would hopefully help. I started this thread to get a good discussion going on this idea. I think this will be one of the big deciding factors for many in buy this game. Even though I have a lot of mmo experience with both pve and pvp the only games I played that might be similar (I say that loosely) were Lineage 2 or Eve. It is not the death penalty I am concerned with, as a few suggest, It is the concept of wasting a lot of time.
Comments
ah the sarcasm was lost in text sent through the internet, thanks for the headsup my bad hotjazz.
EDIT: oh... THAT alterac valley, sorry only played on a private server with no battlegrounds... i get it hahahaha....
When I'm energetic I'm:
the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
When I'm at default I'm:
WHITE/BLUE
Lol according to this I'm bipolar :O
I agree. No way to tell till NDA is dropped.
However, someone is not going to be happy. If the "penalties" are not that harsh, it's going to be a gankfest, and will put off some players. If the "penalties" are very very harsh, it will upset the gankers. Can't please both.
Hopefully they err on the side of pissing off the gankers, because most FFA servers of other games have very low pop servers.
I agree. No way to tell till NDA is dropped.
However, someone is not going to be happy. If the "penalties" are not that harsh, it's going to be a gankfest, and will put off some players. If the "penalties" are very very harsh, it will upset the gankers. Can't please both.
Hopefully they err on the side of pissing off the gankers, because most FFA servers of other games have very low pop servers.
this isn't just a "normal" ffa server though, this game is CENTERED on ffa pvp, not just something it adds on and makes a seperate server for.
The biggest difference from other games and this games in terms of ganking is that you can fight back... and it you can lower the probability of it happening ALOT by playing smart (traveling in groups, joining a strong clan, centering you're activities in npc cities, avoiding popular routes, etc.)
When I'm energetic I'm:
the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
When I'm at default I'm:
WHITE/BLUE
Lol according to this I'm bipolar :O
nice post I would hope you are right, but.. have you played a full loot mmo?
as soon as the prospect of taking other peoples stuff comes it corrupts people. my personal experience is only RL/long term friends are those you can trust. if you are equiped with something worth having expect to get attacked on site by even a usually friendly person.
I would hope aDventurine would tweak the allignment/race/faction system to balance it. I would rather is was generally a faction/race war, but with the possibility of betrayal. how much this is so depends on how the system is implemented, how much betrayal is punished.
Yes sir. In my experience, taking other people's stuff is just like taking crap that fills your inventory. Sure, sometimes you might genuinely take someone's stuff and use it, but most of the time probably not (assuming that you already are using gear in order to increase your chances of actually killing someone). If you want to be a jerk though, you could take their stuff just to take it, but that gets back to my revenge thing. Since Darkfall isn't gear-centric, I don't expect people to become corrupted by gear-hording. Instead, some will become corrupted by simply being an ass
______________________
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nice post I would hope you are right, but.. have you played a full loot mmo?
as soon as the prospect of taking other peoples stuff comes it corrupts people. my personal experience is only RL/long term friends are those you can trust. if you are equiped with something worth having expect to get attacked on site by even a usually friendly person.
I would hope aDventurine would tweak the allignment/race/faction system to balance it. I would rather is was generally a faction/race war, but with the possibility of betrayal. how much this is so depends on how the system is implemented, how much betrayal is punished.
Yes sir. In my experience, taking other people's stuff is just like taking crap that fills your inventory. Sure, sometimes you might genuinely take someone's stuff and use it, but most of the time probably not (assuming that you already are using gear in order to increase your chances of actually killing someone). If you want to be a jerk though, you could take their stuff just to take it, but that gets back to my revenge thing. Since Darkfall isn't gear-centric, I don't expect people to become corrupted by gear-hording. Instead, some will become corrupted by simply being an ass
We shall see. If it's really not gear centric, then why not go naked. If gear isn't that big of a deal, then why bother with it?
http://www.gamerdna.com/GuildHome.php?re=1&short=clannakedI hate to say it, but I'm pretty sure that's exactly what it will become.
Back when UO launched, the player base was mostly RPG-nerds (like myself to a certain extent). PLayers seemed to be a biot older, more mature. Don't misunderstand me, i still hd nights were it seemed like I was doing nothing but getting killed by PK's (player-killers). But, the overall MMORPG player base was a much smaller group of gamers.
Now, thanks to WoW, and such, the genre has been mainstreamed. It's stacked to the rafters with middle and high school year old gits who will kill you and emote sitting on your head or spitting on you, then corpse-camp your body or some other silly crap. I think its a better outlet for their angst then walking into their highschool and shooting all of their classmates.
/shrug we will see what we see. I hope its more like the old days of ultima, but it really can't ever be like that again, as the overall mmorpg community has radically changed over the past 11 years or so.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
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Skill up=killing things or questing to gain exp to get new/better skills, better stats etc.
Level up=killing things or questing to gain exp to get new/better skills, better stats, etc.
What's the difference? You didn't have to kill VanCleef in WOW. Who said you did? You could "skill up" just fine doing something else.
Honestly, as long as you have to spend time doing whatever to improve yor charcter or gain new skills, it doesn't matter what it's called. What matters most is what you find fun, or at least less annoying, to get that exp.
It really is quite simple, if you are already complaining about ganking, griefing and looting then the game is obvisouly not meant for you. So rather than bash the game for what it is intended to do just find a different game to play. There are plenty of games that offer mild PvP styles of play where there are no real consequences for dying. DF is obviously trying to cater to the dedicated, hardcore PvPers, those that want an extreme game and a harsh existence. Until the game is actually released everything said about it will be pure speculation, nothing will be set in stone until the servers are live and the first gamers start filtering in, and even then things could slowly change.
I myself am looking for a game that will take me back to Asheron's Call and the Darktide server, that is why I am interested in the game. I am looking for all the extremes that it is supposed to have, whether it delivers or not will be found out shortly after launch. People that come onto the DF forums and basically trash the game have to expect the fans to react negativly towards them. The same thing goes to those that know what the game is supposed to offer, yet still feel the need to complain about it. The PvP is what it is, if you already don't like it then don't play the game. If you are on the fence, you at least owe it yourself to try the game out. If you are a fan, keep the faith.
I think you are going to be sorely disappointed. Darkfall is not catering to hardcore PvPers looking for a harsh experience. if they were, then there would be true FFA PvP, not rules where if you kill some one you're not supposed to, you become KOS to guards, and you can't buy from merchants.
I think that says it all right there. Frankly, I think if you even have doubts or are on the fence, you should just pass. You dont have to wait and see anything - people are people and this is open PvP. They will gank you. They will take your stuff for no other reason than to destroy it. They will camp you. If this really bothers you and you want to solo...just pass. It may not happen all the time, but if you are upset at the mere thought, even a few actual occurances will be too many.
Me? Sounds great. Cant wait to get into the big picture politics, alliances and wars. No doubt I will be griefed from time to time. Just adds to overall excitement.
Those slaps on the wrist will mean nothing. Actually, they may be considered a badge of honor.
I think that says it all right there. Frankly, I think if you even have doubts or are on the fence, you should just pass. You dont have to wait and see anything - people are people and this is open PvP. They will gank you. They will take your stuff for no other reason than to destroy it. They will camp you. If this really bothers you and you want to solo...just pass. It may not happen all the time, but if you are upset at the mere thought, even a few actual occurances will be too many.
Me? Sounds great. Cant wait to get into the big picture politics, alliances and wars. No doubt I will be griefed from time to time. Just adds to overall excitement.
~~
Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009
Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
Once again making assumptions based solely on your own opinion of the game. Any game that goes the loot route is most definately catering to hardcore PvPers wanting a harsh existence. The rule sets are pretty much inconsequential, every game has a basic set of rules. The fact that you can go Full-PK, no matter the consequences, says this game is for the hardcore. The fact that you can be looted if you die says this game is for the hardcore. Everything about this game screams I am attempting to be more hardcore than the other PvP games out there. You are just trying to find someway to detract from the game, which is kind of sad as the game isn't even out yet. I always find myself chuckling at those that don't like the game or dont' intend to play it that come to the DF forums and try to throw there 2 cents into everything. You can always tell these people from the rest because no matter what you say, no matter how intelligent the post, they find some way to say something negative. In fact your response to mine served no other purpose other than to increase your post count, but if you feel you must increase that count feel free to fire back.
I think you are going to be sorely disappointed. Darkfall is not catering to hardcore PvPers looking for a harsh experience. if they were, then there would be true FFA PvP, not rules where if you kill some one you're not supposed to, you become KOS to guards, and you can't buy from merchants.
I disagree.
having those rules adds consequences to player's actions. If they didn't have those rules then who would care? There would be no risk in kiling another player. And *yawn* to that.
If you want to kill another player you have to mean it and put it on the line.
It's a good thing.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
How will this game not become a gankfest?
YOU take control.
YOU play smart.
I am a soloist and not a PvP player and I wouldnt have this game any other way. The rush of beating the gankmonkey cant be beat.
Make allies. Just because you solo doesnt mean you and other players cant watch eachothers back.
If you cant kill them at least make hard or impossible for them to kill you.
Have fun with with the challange, the chase, the uncertainty.
(You'll have to change your mindset when it comes to dealing with PKs) They win only when they get you down, dont let them get to you. When they know that death doesnt bother you in the slightest they wont bother with you.
Darkfall:
Use the skill or perform an action to raise your "skill level", from 1 to 99. As you swing your sword, you raise your "sword" skill. As you cast spells, you raise your "insert school here" magic skill.
In Darkfall, the difference between "skill levels" is much less pronounced than in other games: eg WoW, where even 10 levels difference is a severe, almost unsurmountable disadvantage. As stated by the developers, it is possible for a skilled newbie to overcome a lesser skilled veteran. It is possible for several newbies to overcome a single veteran.
World of Warcraft:
You kill mobs or complete quests to gain experience points. Once you have gained enough experience points, you gain a level, confering bonuses to stats and unlocking new skills.
Attempting to fight players or monsters, or complete content of a much greater "level" than you is an excersise in futility. You are at a severe disadvantage to mobs 3 levels above you.
Fighting mobs or players, or completing quests below your "level" yield no rewards.
No, you don't have to do the Defias chain in Westfall when leveling up a character in WoW. But everybody does anyway. Why? Because the game is designed around people completing those quests to level up. The game is highly structured with appropriate level quests providing players a "leveling path" with their experience and loot rewards.
If you don't do the Defias chain, you have to grind mobs to gain exp. You have to get alternative equipment to the nice reward blues. While it's technically possible to grind to super high levels in WoW by hiding in the forest, killing boars... nobody does.
WoW is designed for players 1-10 to play in Elwynn Forest or Telldrassil or whatever. You can only play in that zone-level. If you try to go to Westfall or Loch Modan, you'll get your ass kicked. No amount of skill or teamwork can overcome this.
When you're level 11-20, you can only play in places like Westfall, Darkshore, Redridge. Playing in Elwynn Forest gets you nothing. That part of the world may as well not exist to you anymore; it's useless now.
What it all means, in the context of this thread:
- What if somebody camps Van Cleef (or other static location)?
In WoW, not doing the Defias chain gimps your progression. Since the game was designed so that appropriate level characters would do that quest, you miss out on a lot of easy exp and rewards that characters are intended to have.
In Darkfall, not doing "X quest here" is meaningless in a non-linear game. Quests are not a focus that drives the game. You can raise your skills by fighting anything. You can harvest resources anywhere.
- What if higher "level" chars gank lower "level" chars?
In WoW, this happens and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. The only consolation is that you don't lose anything.
In Darkfall, there are no "levels", and a skilled person with lower skill points or worse gear can still fight back against people with more skill points and better gear.
- What if higher "level" chars camp lower "level" chars?
In WoW, this happens and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. Run back to your corpse, and that rogue is stealthed right on top of it, ready to 1-hit ambush you again. Run back to your corpse and manage to rez? Then what? Continue killing the same mobs, because you have to kill these specific mobs for this specific quest? And wait for the ganker to hunt you down again? Do another quest in the same zone (because you have to do quests with specific objectives to level; the alternative is killing boars), while he finds you with his mount and kills you again? At best, you can travel all the way across the world (because zones in WoW are not logically contiguous by level), and do quests there? And pray there's not a ganker in that zone too?
In Darkfall, you can go whereever you want, as the game is neither linear nor quest driven. Got killed at the goblin caves north of town? You rez in town, so you don't corpse run back to get ganked again. So you go to the bank, get another set of equipment, and where you go next is up to you. Go fight murlocs in the village to the southwest? Fight bears to the east? Kill rats waaaaay to the west? Whatever you want. The only "unfinished business" you have back at the goblin cave to the north is whether or not you want to go back up there for some payback.
To bad DF didnt have where you can warp to the Pker and gank him with your group party..Now thats a thought..
Some people rob you at gun point..Others will rob you at "Ball Point Pen"
Darkfall:
Use the skill or perform an action to raise your "skill level", from 1 to 99. As you swing your sword, you raise your "sword" skill. As you cast spells, you raise your "insert school here" magic skill.
In Darkfall, the difference between "skill levels" is much less pronounced than in other games: eg WoW, where even 10 levels difference is a severe, almost unsurmountable disadvantage. As stated by the developers, it is possible for a skilled newbie to overcome a lesser skilled veteran. It is possible for several newbies to overcome a single veteran.
World of Warcraft:
You kill mobs or complete quests to gain experience points. Once you have gained enough experience points, you gain a level, confering bonuses to stats and unlocking new skills.
Attempting to fight players or monsters, or complete content of a much greater "level" than you is an excersise in futility. You are at a severe disadvantage to mobs 3 levels above you.
Fighting mobs or players, or completing quests below your "level" yield no rewards.
No, you don't have to do the Defias chain in Westfall when leveling up a character in WoW. But everybody does anyway. Why? Because the game is designed around people completing those quests to level up. The game is highly structured with appropriate level quests providing players a "leveling path" with their experience and loot rewards.
If you don't do the Defias chain, you have to grind mobs to gain exp. You have to get alternative equipment to the nice reward blues. While it's technically possible to grind to super high levels in WoW by hiding in the forest, killing boars... nobody does.
WoW is designed for players 1-10 to play in Elwynn Forest or Telldrassil or whatever. You can only play in that zone-level. If you try to go to Westfall or Loch Modan, you'll get your ass kicked. No amount of skill or teamwork can overcome this.
When you're level 11-20, you can only play in places like Westfall, Darkshore, Redridge. Playing in Elwynn Forest gets you nothing. That part of the world may as well not exist to you anymore; it's useless now.
What it all means, in the context of this thread:
- What if somebody camps Van Cleef (or other static location)?
In WoW, not doing the Defias chain gimps your progression. Since the game was designed so that appropriate level characters would do that quest, you miss out on a lot of easy exp and rewards that characters are intended to have.
In Darkfall, not doing "X quest here" is meaningless in a non-linear game. Quests are not a focus that drives the game. You can raise your skills by fighting anything. You can harvest resources anywhere.
- What if higher "level" chars gank lower "level" chars?
In WoW, this happens and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. The only consolation is that you don't lose anything.
In Darkfall, there are no "levels", and a skilled person with lower skill points or worse gear can still fight back against people with more skill points and better gear.
- What if higher "level" chars camp lower "level" chars?
In WoW, this happens and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. Run back to your corpse, and that rogue is stealthed right on top of it, ready to 1-hit ambush you again. Run back to your corpse and manage to rez? Then what? Continue killing the same mobs, because you have to kill these specific mobs for this specific quest? And wait for the ganker to hunt you down again? Do another quest in the same zone (because you have to do quests with specific objectives to level; the alternative is killing boars), while he finds you with his mount and kills you again? At best, you can travel all the way across the world (because zones in WoW are not logically contiguous by level), and do quests there? And pray there's not a ganker in that zone too?
In Darkfall, you can go whereever you want, as the game is neither linear nor quest driven. Got killed at the goblin caves north of town? You rez in town, so you don't corpse run back to get ganked again. So you go to the bank, get another set of equipment, and where you go next is up to you. Go fight murlocs in the village to the southwest? Fight bears to the east? Kill rats waaaaay to the west? Whatever you want. The only "unfinished business" you have back at the goblin cave to the north is whether or not you want to go back up there for some payback.
So true. The 'Level' based MMO gives so much injustice to online worlds.
~~
Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009
Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
MASSIVE MASSIVE world + harsh alignment penalties+ no radar or names overhead = less ganking
Darkfall Travelogues!
of course you can solo, fact is if you dont group, you are owned, simply as that. At least we will have a game where grouping is meaningful!
People also said the same thing about Warhammer.
And now people are complaining about that as well.
I hate these whiny posts about a game being a gankfest, its a pvp game. If your worried about that, go play Hello Kitty Online. Quit being such a wuss.
Well not sure if someone else pointed these things out already but here goes anyways.
How will this game not be a gankfest?
1) The faction system: While this will not eliminate ganking it will reduce it. Killing those within your own faction results in some penalties many will not want to deal with. While it hinders you from killing those within your own faction it does not keep you from PvP'ing.
Factions are:
A) Alfar
C) Human, Mirdain and Dwarf
2) No level indicators: There's no giant bullseye floating above your head advertising the fact that your 20 levels below your would be attacker. They have no way to gauge your skill level other than making assumptions based on how your gear looks which is something you can use to your advantage if your smart.
3) Consequence's A.K.A. Full loot: If you do decide to attack someone the thing you have to remember is that you yourself may die. While gear isn't the be all end all thing it is in other games it will be an inconvience to lose everything you have on you. Having that little voice in the back of your head saying don't do it will cut down a bit more.
4) Mob AI: Seems the AI in DarkFall is going to be pretty challenging, I know for a fact some PvP and don't like PvE much at all because of the simple fact the Mobs are rarely a challenge in most games while players on the other hand offer prey that is challenging. In DarkFall the AI sounds almost as challenging as a player. Hearing about goblins Kiting players made my day lol.
It's not realy about limiting the ganking so much its more about giving an alternate outlet for that style of gameplay. If you make a PvP game and punish people for PvP'ing no one is truely happy with it. If you focus that PvP need a bit it is possible to appease both sides of the fence to some extent. I am not saying everyone will be happy, but more than usual will be happy.
Other than that all I can say is we will have to wait and see.
MASSIVE MASSIVE world + harsh alignment penalties+ no radar or names overhead = less ganking
Good answer right to the point. I was thinking that the size of the world would hopefully help. I started this thread to get a good discussion going on this idea. I think this will be one of the big deciding factors for many in buy this game. Even though I have a lot of mmo experience with both pve and pvp the only games I played that might be similar (I say that loosely) were Lineage 2 or Eve. It is not the death penalty I am concerned with, as a few suggest, It is the concept of wasting a lot of time.