Vanguard with all it's flaws and bugs, was a decent try. But all the EQ players (me included) could not bring themselves to grinding in an MMO again. New players had less trouble with the grind than former hardcore EQ players had. We could do it, we just didn't feel like it because we knew what it was going to be like.
I think it's really hard when you have reached a certain point in an MMO to do it again in another MMO.
I can't get into new MMO, even though I know not all of them are bad games, I just can't grind all the levels again, I don't want to, there's just no point to do it all again.
And EQ has (had) a community you grouped with and level'd with. WoW just has nothing, it's just ridiculous how everyone solo's and no one has to depend on one another. WoW is a quest grind that's too easy and predictable, it sucks.
I could play a skill based pure action game or one not purely progression oriented, but most MMO atm are Quest Grinding, that's worse than EQ.
I think the entire industry needs to step back, and reasses technology and technological trends. They (game designers), no longer are visionaries--like they dead-ended or something. With enormously powerful hardware sitting everyone's desktop (including mom and pop driving dual/quad core rigs), there should already be a 'great leap', in the new games. And I don't mean DX10; I mean cheap high reso VR glasses/goggles paired with ears/mic for total emmersion, and games taking advantage of this. Also no one (designers) seem to be expiermenting with novel ways to keep games dynamic. I think they fear lack of computer power to realize their dreams which is a red herring. It's time for new engines also--multithreaded from the very first line of code--mulit-GPU from the first line of code etc. But it's cheaper to just throw out junk and ride the laurels of old technology. Shame really.
Little things can make an MMO into a great one. Everquest's combat and classes is one of the best of all MMO.
I think some luck was responsible for this, a lot of looking at mud's and a lot of D&D influences. I don't think one person was responsible for EQ's success. It was just a combination of having a very good combat system, a good community and little to no competition.
A WoW-competitor will not be a WoW-clone. A WoW comeptitor will take the things from WoW that work but expand on world immersion, customization, and totally innovated features such as player empowerment tools/opportunities and a game that changes, and evolves, with and without player actions.
That's very possible.
I just want to throw this out as well. I believe I heard this on a podcast with one of the WoW developers. A question was asked whether WoW will change the world permanently, like say destroy a town and replace it with something else. I know there are lots of players that would love to see stuff like this. I think Asheron's Call does this.
The answer was expected. Because Blizzard invested a great deal of time and resources to their art assets (not to mention the changes in questing and rewards), they most likely will not change any of their old content in a drastic fashion. It's more cost effective for them to just add new zones or continents to move the story.
I do see the problem here. Players want change and I'm sure companies are willing to change things, if it weren't so costly. And it's not just a one time thing. You'd have to change up the setting many times throughout the course of a game. And Blizzard meticulously worked on their art to make sure every little blade of grass was where it was supposed to be. If they had to rush out game changes, how good will that be?
It's a very thin line to balance. A good developer has to determine what the balance of graphics, customization and immersion has to be, while keeping the gameplay fun and smooth.
WoW's accessibility should be implemented. If you want, add a fourth factor to the mix.
WoW's Accessibility + World Immersion + Customization + Innovation = Next Big Thing
If the market wants a WoW-like game, they will go play WoW, if they are not already.
The same game, with different lore, is not going to be successful. I already Coca Cola, and Pepsi, and I do not need another soft drink.
Nevertheless, what you were alluding to, I want MMORPGs to become more of a work of art again of creativity and genius and less of a product. Intellectually, most MMORPGs are shallow. Creatively, they are lacking. Innovation, if there is any, is not in the area of concepts of world immersion and customization.
A WoW-competitor will not be a WoW-clone. A WoW comeptitor will take the things from WoW that work but expand on world immersion, customization, and totally innovated features such as player empowerment tools/opportunities and a game that changes, and evolves, with and without player actions.
I don't know if that is correct. For the longest time EQ was the biggest MMORPG around. It's main competitor, WoW, was an EQ clone.
Sure, a well polished streamlined clone, but a clone nonetheless.
My first MMO experience was UO, but the first MMO I really played was Asherons Call (for 5 years). Currently im subscribed to Lotro and wow. I should cancel my wow sub cause I dont play it at all but whatever. My view is that everyone is just trying to chase wow's success and maybe they just dont realize that it is a total fluke.
I honestly dont think that any MMO is going to be as successful as WOW, until blizzard launches whatever MMO it is developing now. Blizzard brought people in and they are going to stay with blizzard. I love Turbine as a developer and I think Lotro is an amazing polished MMO, but it is too similar to WOW to really take people away from WOW.
I think these older developers look at millions of subscribers and design their games around that, not around a vision of what they really wanted in the beginning. Games like UO, EQ, and AC were designed around a concept of unknown subscriber numbers, they were shots in the dark pretty much. Now everyone see's this million person market and they are all shooting for that when they design their game. They lose focus on what made them successful in the first place, they lose focus on the original design of their gameplay.
I do agree that if someone created a game that was as user friendly as wow with great character customization and world immersion it would be successful, but it wont be as successful as WOW unless blizzard does it. They have the name and they have the user base that will follow whatever product they release like its the second coming, nothing wrong with that but its the reality of the world.
A team creates games, none of those people mentioned developed the games by themselves and had very different teams on subsequent games. Pretty obvious that keep a successful team together is the thing to do. And no Bill Roper, while keeping some of his ex Diablo team together did not keep the good one's.
Comments
I think it's former players too.
Vanguard with all it's flaws and bugs, was a decent try. But all the EQ players (me included) could not bring themselves to grinding in an MMO again. New players had less trouble with the grind than former hardcore EQ players had. We could do it, we just didn't feel like it because we knew what it was going to be like.
I think it's really hard when you have reached a certain point in an MMO to do it again in another MMO.
I can't get into new MMO, even though I know not all of them are bad games, I just can't grind all the levels again, I don't want to, there's just no point to do it all again.
And EQ has (had) a community you grouped with and level'd with. WoW just has nothing, it's just ridiculous how everyone solo's and no one has to depend on one another. WoW is a quest grind that's too easy and predictable, it sucks.
I could play a skill based pure action game or one not purely progression oriented, but most MMO atm are Quest Grinding, that's worse than EQ.
I think the entire industry needs to step back, and reasses technology and technological trends. They (game designers), no longer are visionaries--like they dead-ended or something. With enormously powerful hardware sitting everyone's desktop (including mom and pop driving dual/quad core rigs), there should already be a 'great leap', in the new games. And I don't mean DX10; I mean cheap high reso VR glasses/goggles paired with ears/mic for total emmersion, and games taking advantage of this. Also no one (designers) seem to be expiermenting with novel ways to keep games dynamic. I think they fear lack of computer power to realize their dreams which is a red herring. It's time for new engines also--multithreaded from the very first line of code--mulit-GPU from the first line of code etc. But it's cheaper to just throw out junk and ride the laurels of old technology. Shame really.
Little things can make an MMO into a great one. Everquest's combat and classes is one of the best of all MMO.
I think some luck was responsible for this, a lot of looking at mud's and a lot of D&D influences. I don't think one person was responsible for EQ's success. It was just a combination of having a very good combat system, a good community and little to no competition.
That's very possible.
I just want to throw this out as well. I believe I heard this on a podcast with one of the WoW developers. A question was asked whether WoW will change the world permanently, like say destroy a town and replace it with something else. I know there are lots of players that would love to see stuff like this. I think Asheron's Call does this.
The answer was expected. Because Blizzard invested a great deal of time and resources to their art assets (not to mention the changes in questing and rewards), they most likely will not change any of their old content in a drastic fashion. It's more cost effective for them to just add new zones or continents to move the story.
I do see the problem here. Players want change and I'm sure companies are willing to change things, if it weren't so costly. And it's not just a one time thing. You'd have to change up the setting many times throughout the course of a game. And Blizzard meticulously worked on their art to make sure every little blade of grass was where it was supposed to be. If they had to rush out game changes, how good will that be?
It's a very thin line to balance. A good developer has to determine what the balance of graphics, customization and immersion has to be, while keeping the gameplay fun and smooth.
I don't know if that is correct. For the longest time EQ was the biggest MMORPG around. It's main competitor, WoW, was an EQ clone.
Sure, a well polished streamlined clone, but a clone nonetheless.
My first MMO experience was UO, but the first MMO I really played was Asherons Call (for 5 years). Currently im subscribed to Lotro and wow. I should cancel my wow sub cause I dont play it at all but whatever. My view is that everyone is just trying to chase wow's success and maybe they just dont realize that it is a total fluke.
I honestly dont think that any MMO is going to be as successful as WOW, until blizzard launches whatever MMO it is developing now. Blizzard brought people in and they are going to stay with blizzard. I love Turbine as a developer and I think Lotro is an amazing polished MMO, but it is too similar to WOW to really take people away from WOW.
I think these older developers look at millions of subscribers and design their games around that, not around a vision of what they really wanted in the beginning. Games like UO, EQ, and AC were designed around a concept of unknown subscriber numbers, they were shots in the dark pretty much. Now everyone see's this million person market and they are all shooting for that when they design their game. They lose focus on what made them successful in the first place, they lose focus on the original design of their gameplay.
I do agree that if someone created a game that was as user friendly as wow with great character customization and world immersion it would be successful, but it wont be as successful as WOW unless blizzard does it. They have the name and they have the user base that will follow whatever product they release like its the second coming, nothing wrong with that but its the reality of the world.
A team creates games, none of those people mentioned developed the games by themselves and had very different teams on subsequent games. Pretty obvious that keep a successful team together is the thing to do. And no Bill Roper, while keeping some of his ex Diablo team together did not keep the good one's.