Well, the point was simple and clear: you made a reply of few words totally OT.
You are absolutely entitled to criticize Ryzom as you prefer, but if you don't want to be considered a troll do it in the appropriate topic or start a new one to discuss it. And, most important, write some more arguments in your posts, so we can understand why you got that opinion.
If you didn't wanted to troll, I apologize, but, due to the nature of your last reply, I still think that you are just a troll.
Sasi already said a lot about grind in Ryzom so I want just to point out my opinion, more general:
There is only grind or there is no grind. The grind is everywhere, even in real life. Each monday you go play bowling, each thursday you go watch your tv show, each friday you go drunk of beer, each sunday you go church, each, each, each....
The grind is in your mind: if you are happy, if you are having fun, you'll never feel the grind.
x Sherkalyn:
don't feed the trolls! His last statement about PvP, considering he told in the same sentence that "he played short" explains very well his nature.
Really you don't need to explain to him what's PvP in Ryzom, he wil never be able to PvP there.
I feed the Voraxes with trolls covered in molten marshmelloes...
Really you don't need to explain to him what's PvP in Ryzom, he wil never be able to PvP there.
He might take that as a challenge. For the others, it's merely informative.
--------- Sherkalyn Crazy Marshmallow Lady Guild Leader of The Exodus Syndicate in Ryzom "Experience Perfection :: Unharness Your Power" www.exodusgs.com
The game has item decay, which is really fine, and its rate is moderate enough in order to not be a royal pain in the butt.
Oooooh, this game is getting better by the minute. What I missed from the MUD I played.
Now if this game has fishing, and leaderboard of who caught the largest, I'd sign up right now (really don't want to be fighting all the time, there's games for 24/7 fighting already).
Money sinks would be the only way to get the dappers flowing but they still wouldn't make the economy work. The current game mechanics ensure that there will always be a large surplus of items and money. You simply can't level any skill without getting items so supply always exceeds demand...
They can take a page from the Asian grinders, and require 10,000+ worth of mats per item. One type of cloth needing 1200 cotton plants, and a tunic needing 120 cloths, deal. Plus, with 100% failure rate possible (with a real average of 1 in 4 being made).
I made plenty of money in that system, because as a planter no one wanted to play a non-bottable profession. 15 million gold a day average (high plants selling for, cheaply, for 500 gold a piece), but it was literally back breaking 8hrs of work, that had to be done manually -- planting one seed at a time, with at most 4 plants per seed every 20 minutes.
That's how to move money, with little stocks in storage (as MMOs always have a problem with it), plus pay players not just 1g profit.
It was a grind to me, but there was a light at the end of the tunnel. I had more work than time, and customers without even needing a shop!
I agree with Sasi, all too often we tend to take offense about a post that may mean well in it's intent and likewise to replies to said post.
Like others I'd have to side with the "no more PvP is needed" group. The PvE in ryzom is enough to curl the hair on any Homin.
The main suggestion on trying to fix the economy is the issue here. Just how that can happen is still open to debate. Grinding a craft up usually does not involve the best mats available, we tend to use whatever just for the XP, same for diggin outside the PR. So those items we sell to hawkers or merchants are not worth the dappers we get for them normally. Maybe that should change, have some form of valuation dependent on not just the quality level but, the stat levels. Although I do think this may be in place as well. Not sure since I have not tested it out.
Any comments, suggestions to the game are helpful. Any debate on said comments needs to taken as concerned players discussing the issue and not personal offenses. Like the old adage goes "opinions are like A**holes, we all have one".
Originally posted by UNATCOII Originally posted by Machieltje Money sinks would be the only way to get the dappers flowing but they still wouldn't make the economy work. The current game mechanics ensure that there will always be a large surplus of items and money. You simply can't level any skill without getting items so supply always exceeds demand...
They can take a page from the Asian grinders, and require 10,000+ worth of mats per item. One type of cloth needing 1200 cotton plants, and a tunic needing 120 cloths, deal. Plus, with 100% failure rate possible (with a real average of 1 in 4 being made).
I made plenty of money in that system, because as a planter no one wanted to play a non-bottable profession. 15 million gold a day average (high plants selling for, cheaply, for 500 gold a piece), but it was literally back breaking 8hrs of work, that had to be done manually -- planting one seed at a time, with at most 4 plants per seed every 20 minutes.
That's how to move money, with little stocks in storage (as MMOs always have a problem with it), plus pay players not just 1g profit.
It was a grind to me, but there was a light at the end of the tunnel. I had more work than time, and customers without even needing a shop!
The main economic problem is that learning a craft requires you to make thousands of items, and then get rid of those items somehow. Selling them to the NPCs nets you millions of dappers, dumping them on the market the same, plus the occasional bonus if someone actually buys one of your items. So any crafter soon is rolling in excess money, and the market is far oversaturated with equipment. The very best equipment can't be purchased at all, because no amount of dappers is useful to a master crafter who is already a multi-millionaire many times over anyway simply through the process of learning the skill.
One idea I had is to learn the skill without producing items. Separate the actual creation from the act of learning, but maintain the consumption of materials. I wonder what unforeseen effects that might have...
Money sinks would be the only way to get the dappers flowing but they still wouldn't make the economy work. The current game mechanics ensure that there will always be a large surplus of items and money. You simply can't level any skill without getting items so supply always exceeds demand...
They can take a page from the Asian grinders, and require 10,000+ worth of mats per item. One type of cloth needing 1200 cotton plants, and a tunic needing 120 cloths, deal. Plus, with 100% failure rate possible (with a real average of 1 in 4 being made).
I made plenty of money in that system, because as a planter no one wanted to play a non-bottable profession. 15 million gold a day average (high plants selling for, cheaply, for 500 gold a piece), but it was literally back breaking 8hrs of work, that had to be done manually -- planting one seed at a time, with at most 4 plants per seed every 20 minutes.
That's how to move money, with little stocks in storage (as MMOs always have a problem with it), plus pay players not just 1g profit.
It was a grind to me, but there was a light at the end of the tunnel. I had more work than time, and customers without even needing a shop!
The main economic problem is that learning a craft requires you to make thousands of items, and then get rid of those items somehow. Selling them to the NPCs nets you millions of dappers, dumping them on the market the same, plus the occasional bonus if someone actually buys one of your items. So any crafter soon is rolling in excess money, and the market is far oversaturated with equipment. The very best equipment can't be purchased at all, because no amount of dappers is useful to a master crafter who is already a multi-millionaire many times over anyway simply through the process of learning the skill.
One idea I had is to learn the skill without producing items. Separate the actual creation from the act of learning, but maintain the consumption of materials. I wonder what unforeseen effects that might have...
If what your type is the environment, then one thing is for sure: they answered the gold farming/buying problem -- people don't have a need to buy any.
But learning a trade would be better learned not by harvesting/using mats; but by apprenticeships (learning from a grandmaster, which is more about learning tradecraft, and/or using tools). This leaves the craftmanship more as a character developing game than just hopping in at day one harvesting and power leveling a crafter.
Actual craftmanship of items really should go to journeyman level and up, with the best equipment made by masters. Apprentice to level 30; journeyman from 30-60; senior to 60-90; Master at 100 (if the game goes that high, otherwise adjust accordingly). If the game devs insist on crafting from level 1, make it some l-o-n-g project (carpenter's building a cathedral, for example), as a start so the apprentice can graduate to where he's high enough to leave and set up his own shingle. Mats will still be needed, as well as tools/equipment, so it's just not grinding away at an item with free tools, either. The apprentice will make his money off of the lowest repair work, too.
Too many games have level 1 crafters making things, and they have to unload the items or destroy it to make room. It's not fun putting time in to only "get rid of it" like trash, and if it sells at just above the cost for fuel/mats, if that.
Originally posted by UNATCOII If what your type is the environment, then one thing is for sure: they answered the gold farming/buying problem -- people don't have a need to buy any. But learning a trade would be better learned not by harvesting/using mats; but by apprenticeships (learning from a grandmaster, which is more about learning tradecraft, and/or using tools). This leaves the craftmanship more as a character developing game than just hopping in at day one harvesting and power leveling a crafter. Actual craftmanship of items really should go to journeyman level and up, with the best equipment made by masters. Apprentice to level 30; journeyman from 30-60; senior to 60-90; Master at 100 (if the game goes that high, otherwise adjust accordingly). If the game devs insist on crafting from level 1, make it some l-o-n-g project (carpenter's building a cathedral, for example), as a start so the apprentice can graduate to where he's high enough to leave and set up his own shingle. Mats will still be needed, as well as tools/equipment, so it's just not grinding away at an item with free tools, either. The apprentice will make his money off of the lowest repair work, too. Too many games have level 1 crafters making things, and they have to unload the items or destroy it to make room. It's not fun putting time in to only "get rid of it" like trash, and if it sells at just above the cost for fuel/mats, if that.
There is a distinct difference between leveling up your crafting skill levels (and there are separate skill levels for each type of item) and developing true mastery of the craft. That generally does involve learning from the more knowledgeable crafters, and frequently resembles something like an apprenticeship.
Having the highest skill level (250, btw) in earring crafting does not mean I can craft a really good earring with good resists and so forth. It just means that I can craft an earring of quality level 250, and likely have all of the earring plans. Becoming a truly masterful crafter involves real effort and real knowledge. A q250 item with crappy stats made from whatever junk mats were convenient will no more sell than the crappy q10 item you made in the starter tutorials.
On the other hand, there's no reason you can't start learning how to craft good gear from the beginning. Just because you can only craft a q50 item doesn't mean you can't craft a really, really good q50 item, which will be useful for yourself or someone else. The difference is that you, the player, have to learn something - not your character.
I do *really* like the idea of long crafting projects, perhaps with multiple people working on them. That would be fun!
If anything, I'm sooooo glad that the broken economy keeps the gold spammers away from Atys. Call me crazy, but I consider their absence a feature of the game. I'd really hate if they suddenly invaded Atys, so I hope there is a way to reduce the insane amount of dappers while still making it easy enough to get ingame currency to let those parasites remain useless.
My only worry is that if even them consider the game as a non-viable market (Remember that AoC had the crappiest economy, yet was rampant with farmers and spammers) how will the game survive financially (banned accounts from subbed goldsellers IS a lot of income) ? Positive aspect is that people can't buy their way through Ryzom. It would be even more pointless than in any other game in the market.
Their absence is both a blessing and a curse. Crazy, isn't it ?
Digging and crafting are the only professions that are still really useful post-master. Heal, melee, nuke and affies are condemned to be used only in PvP, boss hunts, Treks and OOT help (when it comes to grouping). After master, using them in a leveling group nerfs the XP down into oblivion. On the opposite, a master harvester can power-level a newbie faster than cats. The lowbie will benefit a ton in terms of XP, while the Master still gets his high level mats. And a master crafter (a true one, that knows to mix the right ingredients to get good gear) will get much more customers than an apprentice, of course.
--------- Sherkalyn Crazy Marshmallow Lady Guild Leader of The Exodus Syndicate in Ryzom "Experience Perfection :: Unharness Your Power" www.exodusgs.com
I imagine there would be some that leave, but I think a more aggressive game would attract more players. The current pvp content of Ryzom is almost laughable, the only reward for pvp'ing is with outposts, yet they are landlocked between all the older guilds, so new guilds venturing into Ryzom will find the politics of it all very frustrating.
A new land mass that is purely pvp based would be the best idea for Ryzom. Put in lots of high level rewards such as mats/cats/plans etc that drop of the beasties there((Currently killing plain mobs in Ryzom drop nothing but crap, so looting is more of a pain rather than a pleasure)) Stick in full looting rules, this would stop players turning up in the best gear, thus making it more even and voila, something to appease the pvp'ers(The majority in MMO's)
right, let's not let the mobs drop cats, those are too plentyfull already anyway.
no plans either, plans are should be harder to get (read: NPC bosses)
good mats: agreed.
by the way, there is a high level region in developpement (or was, i'm sure spiderweb has the designs/code to this region already as well), that would have missions with plan and cat rewards. No mention was made about pvp but it sounds like that would complement the region, although most current ryzom players wouldn't want that (in my humble opinion)
If it added decent item decay and there was actual upkeep that meshed with the speed at which you could make money, I think it woul dbe a huge help for the economy, at least. I doubt very much the same people would want to play it, though, as they seem to be much more about cooperation and roleplay.
But, that's why we have different games. Ryzom isn't about PvP, that's not part of the point. There are games that are about PvP.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Vandali, I'm sorry if that offends you, but most MMO players are not hardcore PvPers. It is not the majority of the MMO crowd. You probably live on PvP servers of whatever game you play, but Ryzom is not a PvP focused game. PvP in Ryzom is fully consensual : it is an option, not an obligation. From the results of the past, implementation of content that nearly forced people to PvP to be able to participate in events made more players leave the game than it attracted new players. Add full loot and you will have even more unhappy people leaving than new people attracted by the game. Again. We really don't need that.
We don't need more agressivity. The game you want to play is Darkfall with a Ryzom skin, maybe ? I really don't see why both game couldn't co-exist without being carbon copies of each other. They cather to different types of players. Tired of not being able to watch over your shoulder while you are hunting ? Welcome to Atys, here, most homins, even pure strangers,will watch your back to protect it instead of stabbing it to steal your hard earned stuff. Even if you fought against each other at an outpost battle the day before.
The game makes the community. The community can help make your game more enjoyable or a total hell of a pain where the sun never shines. (And I've experienced both... the less Arispotle resembles Tyranny-PvP (AoC), the better.) If Ryzom turned into such a pointless gankfest and e-peen contest, I think most people would just quit, even if the economy was fixed.
If Ryzom was FFA-PvP with full loot, I think I wouldn't have started to play it in the first place. I hate not having the choice and being forced to PvP. I play games to have fun, not to bully others or be bullied by them.
--------- Sherkalyn Crazy Marshmallow Lady Guild Leader of The Exodus Syndicate in Ryzom "Experience Perfection :: Unharness Your Power" www.exodusgs.com
I for one would not play anymore no... I could live with item degration upon death (say it loses 5 durability per death), but i would restrict that to PvE death as well. Otherwise nobody would actually show up to PvP battles.
the PvP in Ryzom is just a nice intermezzo between the PvE, and not by far the focus of the game. Most current players of Ryzom are happy with the way this is organised (otherwise they'd be playing more pvp oriented games, don't u think?). The proposal to orient ryzom more towards pvp would drive out its current playerbase, its strong community, and open the road for a new community, for which there already are more than enough games. If you want free (or almost free) pvp, play RF Online, or WoW on a pvp server...
I think if pvp were setup like EVE where pvp is controlled if not limited in some areas and open in other areas then it could work. Believe it or not EVE is not an absolute FFA PVP game. PvP is controlled in Empire space ( safe space ) and then is more open in Low sec space ( space where only gates and stations have turrets to defend players ) but then totally open in 0.0 space.
There would also need to be good reasons to fight other guilds/clans. Control of regions where you could setup farms/small towns which would give you access to certain out of season crafting materials and the ability to plant your guild/clan flag/banner on a structure that you could own. Attacking a farm/outpost town should be done in the same manner as in EVE when you attack a POS and there is no one around. Basically you get attacked by NPC guards of good strength and numbers which would require a large group to take down. Once those are done you attack the outpost and it will then go down into a defensive mode after a certain time and damage is done to it. At this point it will come out of their reinforced mode but only after mailing the guild and it's leader of this attack and allowing them a chance to defend their turf.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
the current OP combat system works fine, with declarations on beforehand, the OP's could display flags for guilds...
and there already are free pvp areas, most of the Prime roots are free to pvp, and those places contain the most valuable raw materials to be found in the game...
I used Darkfall as an example, I could have used EvE, but Darkfall was the game that, to me, resembles the most what Ryzom would look like with a FFA system. I didn't say "go play wow". WoW wouldn't fit the description you propose anyways. I just don't want to play a Ryzom version of another game, I play Ryzom because it IS Ryzom. Of course, if you expect everyone to absolutely agree 100 % with your ideas, you are going to be disappointed. And just because you don't like my observations doesn't mean they were completely idiotic. I'm basing them on what I observed in Ryzom, AoC (on a FFA-PvP server) and other PvP games which had pretty horrible communities. You come here proposing a radical change : FFA-PvP, which by definition IS forced and imposed on everybody. Factionnal tagged PvP is NOT FFA, by the way. Just ask the older veterans how many people left just over the Temple Wars, and it wasn't FFA either. You don't impose an FFA-System on an already existing community, it has to be there from the start or not at all. Unless of course, you want a huge mob of angry customers that used to be your loyal and dedicated fanbase to leave just like what happened during the Temple War. A radical system of FFA-PvP wouldn't be welcomed by the large majority of the existing player base. Ryzom is already hard and complicated for the majority of gamers, if you introduce an even harsher system of item destruction + loot... I ask you how are we supposed to attract people and make the game appealing to them, the general crowd. The possibility of breaking and looting other people's stuff, even if only part of it, only attracts griefers and people who don't care about making others miserable as long as it profits them. The perspective of getting the fruit of your hard work destroyed or stolen never attracts anyone, unless you know a wide potential market for masochists that I've never heard of. It wouldn't attract many people and would make even more leave. I'm speaking here only of the FFA-PvP with loot and/or destruction of items, not the more moderate options. And yes, crafters do make too many items, there would never be enough players to buy and use all of them, even with accelerated decay. If all items had to be sold to players, the market would be flooded with poor-quality items from grinding, and the major item sink would be them timing out after a week, not destruction or decay. Less items to vendor and real money sinks (like the ones mentionned by Gilgameesh) would make dappers more valuable and I wouldn't always carry 5+ millions on me at all time. And that's not even a lot by current Ryzom standards. Some guilds have billions in their bank. You want to fix the economy, fine. Who doesn't ? But you ask the Vets, and, although I don't pretend to be one, I still think that FFA-PvP is not the only solution. You want to attack me and call me an idiot because I disagree, say that the Vets are asses because they wouldn't want it ? Go ahead, but I sincerely doubt that it will make your ideas get an easier approval. A player driven economy is something that is very difficult to implement and balance ; most devs disregard it, some people even call it a myth. SWG used to have one ; the NGE destroyed it. The fact that nearly every piece of gear on Atys is player crafted is already a step on the right direction, making money by crafting instead of losing it is another (AoC's crafting system made you lose/waste money), decay is another, but maybe the fact of dying in itself should make it a little faster without being exaggerate. What is lacking is a true money sink that makes dappers really useful.
This and your first response are two excellent posts, very well thought out, explained and supported.
I remember the reaction when PvP was announced - many in the community were not pleased by it and I do remember many leaving because of it.
Between that, and the mass exodus after one of their first patches (the one that made all mobs ridiculously powerful, even the starter area ones), Ryzom's population dropped quite substantially.
Knowing what I do of the overall community in Ryzom, both those I've known and spoken to personally, and based on overall conversation, if they were to implement a FFA PvP system in this game, based on reactions in the past to drastic changes, I think it would pretty much finish off any chance they have of re-establishing, much less maintaining a loyal player base.
And what Ryzom needs right now is to attract more players, not to drive them away.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
If anything, I'm sooooo glad that the broken economy keeps the gold spammers away from Atys. Call me crazy, but I consider their absence a feature of the game. I'd really hate if they suddenly invaded Atys, so I hope there is a way to reduce the insane amount of dappers while still making it easy enough to get ingame currency to let those parasites remain useless. In part, at least, I think it also has to do with how the game is doing and how many are playing it. For a while now, Ryzom has had a pretty small (though fiercely loyal) community and has been widely disregarded as another failed MMO.
This is not a knock on Ryzom at all, but an objective observation. That's the perception widely held of Ryzom by those who know about it at all. That said, If gold-sellers see enough people playing a game and believe they can potentially make a profit off of it, they'll at least try.
I seldom make such a statement (and I've been harsh in my criticism of some Ryzom players in the past), but overall if I had hope for one game's community to "rise above" the temptation to buy their way through a game, it would be Ryzom's. I mean, despite the game's slower progress curve and all its been through, actually being "gone" for a time, y'all have hung in there. That tells me that there's a dedication to playing the game as it's designed, because of how it's designed, and not merely looking for the fastest/easiest way to get through it.
The Ryzom community is part of a seemingly dying breed in MMOs... those who still play for the journey. I think, also, that the nature of how Ryzom is setup keeps away the players who would want to buy their way through anyway. Even with money, making progress in Ryzom is not for the timid and certainly not for those looking for a "quick race to end-game".
So... Ryzom is one of those few, very rare MMOs that I think that no matter what, RMT would not take hold.
Not a bad thing at all.
Now, if the current owners/developers decided to sell out on it and tone things down to make it more appealing to the more so-called "casual crowd" that has overtaken the rest of the genre, that might change. I don't think, and certainly hope it won't come to that though.
I think, too, that we're coming into a time where there are players looking for something more. They've gotten their "feet wet", so to speak, on the current trend of "accessible, solo-friendly" MMOs... and many I find are looking for something more.
In particular, the MMO I play as my "main", FFXI, is seeing more people coming to it lately than I've seen in a long time... and unlike other times, many more are now appreciating its depth and slower pace and staying. In the past they'd have knocked it and shunned it and left before reaching level 10.
So... there might be some serendipity in the timing of Ryzom's return to a subscription based MMO. I find that people tend to take a MMO with a subscription more seriously or, certainly, are more attentive to it than they are to the typical F2P type.
So... if this company plays its cards right and perhaps looks to get some exposure (via marketing, interviews, etc), it could benefit Ryzom. That's not an expert analysis by any means.. just a sort of "hunch" based on some things I've noticed in the MMO community overall.
There's tons of "me-too" "WoW-clones" flooding the market, and it seems to be leaving many players with a feeling of "been there, done that to death... I want something more".
My only worry is that if even them consider the game as a non-viable market (Remember that AoC had the crappiest economy, yet was rampant with farmers and spammers) how will the game survive financially (banned accounts from subbed goldsellers IS a lot of income) ? Positive aspect is that people can't buy their way through Ryzom. It would be even more pointless than in any other game in the market. AoC attracted many players on hype and the promise of "gratuitous blood and boobies". The hype alone prior to the game's launch was probably all the RMT companies needed to see it as a viable prospect. Their absence is both a blessing and a curse. Crazy, isn't it ? Mostly, I think it's a curse, but it depends on how it's handled.
For the absolute worst example of a company dealing with botters and gold-sellers, see Lineage 2. The gold-sellers have pretty much become an integral part of the game and control a significant portion of the economy. The rampant botting and NC's almost complete failure to do anything about it (beyond token bannings every several months; usually before the release of a major update) has turned away more players than it's kept.
For the absolute best example of a company that does combat RMT, see Square Enix with FFXI. They have an active "Task Force" that does nothing but deal with all things RMT/Botting/Hacking, etc.. in their game. They release monthly reports of how many were banned, on what dates and for what reason. How much ill-intended money was removed from the economy, as well as a complete report of what was the main focus for the previous round and what they plan to look into more in the coming month.
SE took an economy that was wildly out of control for a long time and brought it right back down to earth. Many items are cheaper now than even when I first started (the day of its US release on PC).
So.. it *can* be combatted to very good effect. It just depends on how seriously the company wants to be in doing so.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Exactly, thats one reason why Ryzom will continue to be overlooked by potential customers.
It's one reason why it will be overlooked by potential customers looking for a wide-open FFA-PvP MMO with lootable corpses, a la Darkfall or Shadowbane, etc.
Yet every time (so far) that such a MMO has existed in that state, it has either fallen to near non-existence (Shadowbane) or has had the openness removed and had more restrictions put in place to stem the loss of players leaving. And in most all cases, players - who do in fact enjoy PvP - leave because of the inevitable griefing, ganking and all around harassment that such a system allows and attracts.
Shadowbane: Wide open PvP MMO with little to no restrictions on PvP and lootable corpses. How many are still playing that MMO?
Lineage 2: Upon release and for the first few Chronicles, PvP in L2 was wide-open with no restrictions. There wasn't corpse-looting, but it had the next best thing... upon death you would very likely drop loot. So whether you died to a mob or to a player, the result was the same. This was abused be people ganking, griefing and all around harassing other players, training them with creatures to kil them so they wouldn't go red (which NCSoft said was a legitimate tactic at first) but would still get the items that dropped. It led to new players leaving and the game's population not growing (at least in the Western countries).
The result? NCSoft toned down the PvP to where it's now an open PvP system with many more restrictions and you don't drop gear unless you are red (chaotic) with 5 or more PK's racked up.
Ultima Online: Wasn't around for this, but my understanding was that it used to be wide-open unrestricted PvP, but was toned down because, again, too many people were abusing it which led to many players leaving, citing "frequent ganking" as their reason.
I've seen other MMOs, like Eve used as an example that open FFA PvP works. It's a disingenuous claim because, as has been stated, the PvP in Eve is not "anytime anywhere". You can *try* to attack another player in higher security space... just expect to be destroyed yourself. You cannot attack other players inside a station. When the "Walking In Stations" feature is added, you will still not be able to attack other players at will. So, compared to a MMO where you can PK someone anytime, anywhere with no restrictions, Eve is not a wide-open FFA PvP MMO. If not because of strict restrictions, then certainly so because would-be gankers aren't willing to risk their own ships by doing it in high security space.
Another attempted argument I've seen often, which always makes me chuckle, is how popular World of Warcraft is and it has PvP. This is often from the same people who, in any other situation, would quickly state that WoW's PvP sucks, that it's "carebear" or that "It doesn't have real PvP". Funny how all that changes when they're looking for some kind of evidence to prove that FFA PvP is popular, though. Suddenly WoW's PvP becomes a boon to their cause.
That said, WoW is, even on the PvP servers, does most certainly *not* have a FFA wide-open PvP system with lootable corpses and is not a good example of proof that people would enjoy one.
This whole idea that somehow a game with more hardcore FFA PvP with lootable corpses and all that would attract more players has not been proven, ever. In every case that it's been tried, it's either done abysmally or the system had to be toned down to stop players from leaving. The only people it would attract more of are, frankly, the exact kind of people most players - including PvP'ers - wouldn't want around. The "FFA PvP" crowd are certainly far more vocal than others... but that's about where its popularity ends.
And as has been pointed out, the introduction of PvP to Ryzom when it happened did *not* bring in a bunch of new players. It drove a bunch of existing players away. There really isn't any better proof than that.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
her me if i didnt enjoy selling stuff) and the lack of optional content/events (being adressed).
I guess it could be worse right? we could have a mess like AoC on our hands. I probably will sub to the game to check out the events, but I have no clue how the game will hold me if i cant be a crafter/trader since there's no market to sell to.
I wish anyone who said this would just STFU.
Why? Because there's no way in hell Age of Conan had a worse launch then Vanguard or Ryzom. It's the popular thing to say right now and is pissing me the hell off. I'm not an AoC fan maniac at all but the game has never deserved the immense flack it gets from this site especially. Sorry Metalhead also I don't mean to pick on you specifically I'm just losing my patience for this kind of comment. Overhype sucks! ><;;;;; And that's the main problem with both Vanguard and AoC, but anyway this is about Ryzom..
Moving on, the game is finally getting the right kind of love right now which does pleasantly surprise me. Currently tinkering with my old, old account and I am more hopeful for Ryzom's future then I was in the summer. The patch is great, of course I wasn't aware of most of the bugs fixed so I can't appreciate that, but the graphics have been pushed further and it's lovely!
For the topic of this thread I have to agree that no you cannot implement something so drastic into an already existing game unless you strip the game, redesign it and change it's name. The lure of the game to me is that it is a sandbox type with consensual PvP. Most sandboxes in my experience are not consensual and I lose my cool pretty fast in those games. And I prefer not to Ryzom's sense of freedom also stems from choosing not to participate in certain features, like PvP.
Originally posted by Cynthe Why? Because there's no way in hell Age of Conan had a worse launch then Vanguard or Ryzom. It's the popular thing to say right now and is pissing me the hell off. I'm not an AoC fan maniac at all but the game has never deserved the immense flack it gets from this site especially.
Aye. Beside that mmorpg's dont have the best launches in the game-industry, Ryzom's and Vanguards launch werent very good either. (Or spellborn, WoW, etc). I think I've seen two, maybe three, good launches in the mmo-history since Earth & Beyond... Now that I think of it, I think AoC was much smoother then VG or Ryzom...
Personally I don't mind spending some dappers on Ryzom, because I think the game deserves it, just because it's different, but that is beside the point
What Sxarlet said is to me the central point. Ryzom is differrent.
In my opinion, if FFA-PvP or full scale Faction PvP would be implemented, with the current population in mind, first, many veterans would just leave, and the remaining few crafters would just no longer be seen, because they will craft in there apartements or guild halls where they can't be attacked.
So to me World PvP would be the death sentence for Ryzom, because it would take away it uniqness. If PvP becomes the center of the game, no one will ever again appreciate the beauty of the unterlying PvE system.
I think we already aggreed that crafters become rediculous rich under the current system, so what you suggest would make crafters even richer, still with the same problem that there is nothing worth to spend dappers on.
Result: FFA-PvP -> less players, richer crafters
Is that what you want?
In my opinion the only thing that will fix the economy is many more players. That would definetly lower the crafter/non-crafter ratio, and that way raise the demand in crafted items.
Comments
x BusDriver:
Well, the point was simple and clear: you made a reply of few words totally OT.
You are absolutely entitled to criticize Ryzom as you prefer, but if you don't want to be considered a troll do it in the appropriate topic or start a new one to discuss it. And, most important, write some more arguments in your posts, so we can understand why you got that opinion.
If you didn't wanted to troll, I apologize, but, due to the nature of your last reply, I still think that you are just a troll.
Sasi already said a lot about grind in Ryzom so I want just to point out my opinion, more general:
There is only grind or there is no grind. The grind is everywhere, even in real life. Each monday you go play bowling, each thursday you go watch your tv show, each friday you go drunk of beer, each sunday you go church, each, each, each....
The grind is in your mind: if you are happy, if you are having fun, you'll never feel the grind.
x Sherkalyn:
don't feed the trolls! His last statement about PvP, considering he told in the same sentence that "he played short" explains very well his nature.
Really you don't need to explain to him what's PvP in Ryzom, he wil never be able to PvP there.
Nickname registered on www.mynickname.org
I feed the Voraxes with trolls covered in molten marshmelloes...
Really you don't need to explain to him what's PvP in Ryzom, he wil never be able to PvP there.
He might take that as a challenge. For the others, it's merely informative.
---------
Sherkalyn
Crazy Marshmallow Lady
Guild Leader of The Exodus Syndicate in Ryzom
"Experience Perfection :: Unharness Your Power"
www.exodusgs.com
Oooooh, this game is getting better by the minute. What I missed from the MUD I played.
Now if this game has fishing, and leaderboard of who caught the largest, I'd sign up right now (really don't want to be fighting all the time, there's games for 24/7 fighting already).
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
They can take a page from the Asian grinders, and require 10,000+ worth of mats per item. One type of cloth needing 1200 cotton plants, and a tunic needing 120 cloths, deal. Plus, with 100% failure rate possible (with a real average of 1 in 4 being made).
I made plenty of money in that system, because as a planter no one wanted to play a non-bottable profession. 15 million gold a day average (high plants selling for, cheaply, for 500 gold a piece), but it was literally back breaking 8hrs of work, that had to be done manually -- planting one seed at a time, with at most 4 plants per seed every 20 minutes.
That's how to move money, with little stocks in storage (as MMOs always have a problem with it), plus pay players not just 1g profit.
It was a grind to me, but there was a light at the end of the tunnel. I had more work than time, and customers without even needing a shop!
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Edit: Grumble. Grumble.
Played (more than a month): SWG, Second Life, Tabula Rasa, Lineage 2, Everquest 2, EvE, MxO, Ryzom.
Tried: WoW, Shadowbane, Anarchy Online, Everquest, WWII Online, Planetside
Beta: Lotro, Tabula Rasa, WAR.
I agree with Sasi, all too often we tend to take offense about a post that may mean well in it's intent and likewise to replies to said post.
Like others I'd have to side with the "no more PvP is needed" group. The PvE in ryzom is enough to curl the hair on any Homin.
The main suggestion on trying to fix the economy is the issue here. Just how that can happen is still open to debate. Grinding a craft up usually does not involve the best mats available, we tend to use whatever just for the XP, same for diggin outside the PR. So those items we sell to hawkers or merchants are not worth the dappers we get for them normally. Maybe that should change, have some form of valuation dependent on not just the quality level but, the stat levels. Although I do think this may be in place as well. Not sure since I have not tested it out.
Any comments, suggestions to the game are helpful. Any debate on said comments needs to taken as concerned players discussing the issue and not personal offenses. Like the old adage goes "opinions are like A**holes, we all have one".
They can take a page from the Asian grinders, and require 10,000+ worth of mats per item. One type of cloth needing 1200 cotton plants, and a tunic needing 120 cloths, deal. Plus, with 100% failure rate possible (with a real average of 1 in 4 being made).
I made plenty of money in that system, because as a planter no one wanted to play a non-bottable profession. 15 million gold a day average (high plants selling for, cheaply, for 500 gold a piece), but it was literally back breaking 8hrs of work, that had to be done manually -- planting one seed at a time, with at most 4 plants per seed every 20 minutes.
That's how to move money, with little stocks in storage (as MMOs always have a problem with it), plus pay players not just 1g profit.
It was a grind to me, but there was a light at the end of the tunnel. I had more work than time, and customers without even needing a shop!
The main economic problem is that learning a craft requires you to make thousands of items, and then get rid of those items somehow. Selling them to the NPCs nets you millions of dappers, dumping them on the market the same, plus the occasional bonus if someone actually buys one of your items. So any crafter soon is rolling in excess money, and the market is far oversaturated with equipment. The very best equipment can't be purchased at all, because no amount of dappers is useful to a master crafter who is already a multi-millionaire many times over anyway simply through the process of learning the skill.
One idea I had is to learn the skill without producing items. Separate the actual creation from the act of learning, but maintain the consumption of materials. I wonder what unforeseen effects that might have...
===============================
Sasi
Guild Leader of Pegasus Foundation
in Ryzom
They can take a page from the Asian grinders, and require 10,000+ worth of mats per item. One type of cloth needing 1200 cotton plants, and a tunic needing 120 cloths, deal. Plus, with 100% failure rate possible (with a real average of 1 in 4 being made).
I made plenty of money in that system, because as a planter no one wanted to play a non-bottable profession. 15 million gold a day average (high plants selling for, cheaply, for 500 gold a piece), but it was literally back breaking 8hrs of work, that had to be done manually -- planting one seed at a time, with at most 4 plants per seed every 20 minutes.
That's how to move money, with little stocks in storage (as MMOs always have a problem with it), plus pay players not just 1g profit.
It was a grind to me, but there was a light at the end of the tunnel. I had more work than time, and customers without even needing a shop!
The main economic problem is that learning a craft requires you to make thousands of items, and then get rid of those items somehow. Selling them to the NPCs nets you millions of dappers, dumping them on the market the same, plus the occasional bonus if someone actually buys one of your items. So any crafter soon is rolling in excess money, and the market is far oversaturated with equipment. The very best equipment can't be purchased at all, because no amount of dappers is useful to a master crafter who is already a multi-millionaire many times over anyway simply through the process of learning the skill.
One idea I had is to learn the skill without producing items. Separate the actual creation from the act of learning, but maintain the consumption of materials. I wonder what unforeseen effects that might have...
If what your type is the environment, then one thing is for sure: they answered the gold farming/buying problem -- people don't have a need to buy any.
But learning a trade would be better learned not by harvesting/using mats; but by apprenticeships (learning from a grandmaster, which is more about learning tradecraft, and/or using tools). This leaves the craftmanship more as a character developing game than just hopping in at day one harvesting and power leveling a crafter.
Actual craftmanship of items really should go to journeyman level and up, with the best equipment made by masters. Apprentice to level 30; journeyman from 30-60; senior to 60-90; Master at 100 (if the game goes that high, otherwise adjust accordingly). If the game devs insist on crafting from level 1, make it some l-o-n-g project (carpenter's building a cathedral, for example), as a start so the apprentice can graduate to where he's high enough to leave and set up his own shingle. Mats will still be needed, as well as tools/equipment, so it's just not grinding away at an item with free tools, either. The apprentice will make his money off of the lowest repair work, too.
Too many games have level 1 crafters making things, and they have to unload the items or destroy it to make room. It's not fun putting time in to only "get rid of it" like trash, and if it sells at just above the cost for fuel/mats, if that.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
There is a distinct difference between leveling up your crafting skill levels (and there are separate skill levels for each type of item) and developing true mastery of the craft. That generally does involve learning from the more knowledgeable crafters, and frequently resembles something like an apprenticeship.
Having the highest skill level (250, btw) in earring crafting does not mean I can craft a really good earring with good resists and so forth. It just means that I can craft an earring of quality level 250, and likely have all of the earring plans. Becoming a truly masterful crafter involves real effort and real knowledge. A q250 item with crappy stats made from whatever junk mats were convenient will no more sell than the crappy q10 item you made in the starter tutorials.
On the other hand, there's no reason you can't start learning how to craft good gear from the beginning. Just because you can only craft a q50 item doesn't mean you can't craft a really, really good q50 item, which will be useful for yourself or someone else. The difference is that you, the player, have to learn something - not your character.
I do *really* like the idea of long crafting projects, perhaps with multiple people working on them. That would be fun!
===============================
Sasi
Guild Leader of Pegasus Foundation
in Ryzom
If anything, I'm sooooo glad that the broken economy keeps the gold spammers away from Atys. Call me crazy, but I consider their absence a feature of the game. I'd really hate if they suddenly invaded Atys, so I hope there is a way to reduce the insane amount of dappers while still making it easy enough to get ingame currency to let those parasites remain useless.
My only worry is that if even them consider the game as a non-viable market (Remember that AoC had the crappiest economy, yet was rampant with farmers and spammers) how will the game survive financially (banned accounts from subbed goldsellers IS a lot of income) ? Positive aspect is that people can't buy their way through Ryzom. It would be even more pointless than in any other game in the market.
Their absence is both a blessing and a curse. Crazy, isn't it ?
Digging and crafting are the only professions that are still really useful post-master. Heal, melee, nuke and affies are condemned to be used only in PvP, boss hunts, Treks and OOT help (when it comes to grouping). After master, using them in a leveling group nerfs the XP down into oblivion. On the opposite, a master harvester can power-level a newbie faster than cats. The lowbie will benefit a ton in terms of XP, while the Master still gets his high level mats.
And a master crafter (a true one, that knows to mix the right ingredients to get good gear) will get much more customers than an apprentice, of course.
---------
Sherkalyn
Crazy Marshmallow Lady
Guild Leader of The Exodus Syndicate in Ryzom
"Experience Perfection :: Unharness Your Power"
www.exodusgs.com
I imagine there would be some that leave, but I think a more aggressive game would attract more players. The current pvp content of Ryzom is almost laughable, the only reward for pvp'ing is with outposts, yet they are landlocked between all the older guilds, so new guilds venturing into Ryzom will find the politics of it all very frustrating.
A new land mass that is purely pvp based would be the best idea for Ryzom. Put in lots of high level rewards such as mats/cats/plans etc that drop of the beasties there((Currently killing plain mobs in Ryzom drop nothing but crap, so looting is more of a pain rather than a pleasure)) Stick in full looting rules, this would stop players turning up in the best gear, thus making it more even and voila, something to appease the pvp'ers(The majority in MMO's)
right, let's not let the mobs drop cats, those are too plentyfull already anyway.
no plans either, plans are should be harder to get (read: NPC bosses)
good mats: agreed.
by the way, there is a high level region in developpement (or was, i'm sure spiderweb has the designs/code to this region already as well), that would have missions with plan and cat rewards. No mention was made about pvp but it sounds like that would complement the region, although most current ryzom players wouldn't want that (in my humble opinion)
If it added decent item decay and there was actual upkeep that meshed with the speed at which you could make money, I think it woul dbe a huge help for the economy, at least. I doubt very much the same people would want to play it, though, as they seem to be much more about cooperation and roleplay.
But, that's why we have different games. Ryzom isn't about PvP, that's not part of the point. There are games that are about PvP.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Exactly, thats one reason why Ryzom will continue to be overlooked by potential customers.
Sorry, if I barge in like that but I coudn´t resist the notion:
Yes we´re glad that the extremely infaltional dapper keeps off the gold farmers, but imagine someone shouting:
"Will get your dappers off you for Boss Loot!" in Region!
*hides and giggling runs out of the thread*
(Will not get realy involved in the disuccion for having missed too much of it)
And nope, I woudn´t play anymore. `Nuff said.
Do you dare to adapt?
Vandali, I'm sorry if that offends you, but most MMO players are not hardcore PvPers. It is not the majority of the MMO crowd. You probably live on PvP servers of whatever game you play, but Ryzom is not a PvP focused game. PvP in Ryzom is fully consensual : it is an option, not an obligation. From the results of the past, implementation of content that nearly forced people to PvP to be able to participate in events made more players leave the game than it attracted new players. Add full loot and you will have even more unhappy people leaving than new people attracted by the game. Again. We really don't need that.
We don't need more agressivity. The game you want to play is Darkfall with a Ryzom skin, maybe ? I really don't see why both game couldn't co-exist without being carbon copies of each other. They cather to different types of players. Tired of not being able to watch over your shoulder while you are hunting ? Welcome to Atys, here, most homins, even pure strangers,will watch your back to protect it instead of stabbing it to steal your hard earned stuff. Even if you fought against each other at an outpost battle the day before.
The game makes the community. The community can help make your game more enjoyable or a total hell of a pain where the sun never shines. (And I've experienced both... the less Arispotle resembles Tyranny-PvP (AoC), the better.) If Ryzom turned into such a pointless gankfest and e-peen contest, I think most people would just quit, even if the economy was fixed.
If Ryzom was FFA-PvP with full loot, I think I wouldn't have started to play it in the first place. I hate not having the choice and being forced to PvP. I play games to have fun, not to bully others or be bullied by them.
---------
Sherkalyn
Crazy Marshmallow Lady
Guild Leader of The Exodus Syndicate in Ryzom
"Experience Perfection :: Unharness Your Power"
www.exodusgs.com
I for one would not play anymore no... I could live with item degration upon death (say it loses 5 durability per death), but i would restrict that to PvE death as well. Otherwise nobody would actually show up to PvP battles.
the PvP in Ryzom is just a nice intermezzo between the PvE, and not by far the focus of the game. Most current players of Ryzom are happy with the way this is organised (otherwise they'd be playing more pvp oriented games, don't u think?). The proposal to orient ryzom more towards pvp would drive out its current playerbase, its strong community, and open the road for a new community, for which there already are more than enough games. If you want free (or almost free) pvp, play RF Online, or WoW on a pvp server...
I think if pvp were setup like EVE where pvp is controlled if not limited in some areas and open in other areas then it could work. Believe it or not EVE is not an absolute FFA PVP game. PvP is controlled in Empire space ( safe space ) and then is more open in Low sec space ( space where only gates and stations have turrets to defend players ) but then totally open in 0.0 space.
There would also need to be good reasons to fight other guilds/clans. Control of regions where you could setup farms/small towns which would give you access to certain out of season crafting materials and the ability to plant your guild/clan flag/banner on a structure that you could own. Attacking a farm/outpost town should be done in the same manner as in EVE when you attack a POS and there is no one around. Basically you get attacked by NPC guards of good strength and numbers which would require a large group to take down. Once those are done you attack the outpost and it will then go down into a defensive mode after a certain time and damage is done to it. At this point it will come out of their reinforced mode but only after mailing the guild and it's leader of this attack and allowing them a chance to defend their turf.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
the current OP combat system works fine, with declarations on beforehand, the OP's could display flags for guilds...
and there already are free pvp areas, most of the Prime roots are free to pvp, and those places contain the most valuable raw materials to be found in the game...
This and your first response are two excellent posts, very well thought out, explained and supported.
I remember the reaction when PvP was announced - many in the community were not pleased by it and I do remember many leaving because of it.
Between that, and the mass exodus after one of their first patches (the one that made all mobs ridiculously powerful, even the starter area ones), Ryzom's population dropped quite substantially.
Knowing what I do of the overall community in Ryzom, both those I've known and spoken to personally, and based on overall conversation, if they were to implement a FFA PvP system in this game, based on reactions in the past to drastic changes, I think it would pretty much finish off any chance they have of re-establishing, much less maintaining a loyal player base.
And what Ryzom needs right now is to attract more players, not to drive them away.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Exactly, thats one reason why Ryzom will continue to be overlooked by potential customers.
It's one reason why it will be overlooked by potential customers looking for a wide-open FFA-PvP MMO with lootable corpses, a la Darkfall or Shadowbane, etc.
Yet every time (so far) that such a MMO has existed in that state, it has either fallen to near non-existence (Shadowbane) or has had the openness removed and had more restrictions put in place to stem the loss of players leaving. And in most all cases, players - who do in fact enjoy PvP - leave because of the inevitable griefing, ganking and all around harassment that such a system allows and attracts.
Shadowbane: Wide open PvP MMO with little to no restrictions on PvP and lootable corpses. How many are still playing that MMO?
Lineage 2: Upon release and for the first few Chronicles, PvP in L2 was wide-open with no restrictions. There wasn't corpse-looting, but it had the next best thing... upon death you would very likely drop loot. So whether you died to a mob or to a player, the result was the same. This was abused be people ganking, griefing and all around harassing other players, training them with creatures to kil them so they wouldn't go red (which NCSoft said was a legitimate tactic at first) but would still get the items that dropped. It led to new players leaving and the game's population not growing (at least in the Western countries).
The result? NCSoft toned down the PvP to where it's now an open PvP system with many more restrictions and you don't drop gear unless you are red (chaotic) with 5 or more PK's racked up.
Ultima Online: Wasn't around for this, but my understanding was that it used to be wide-open unrestricted PvP, but was toned down because, again, too many people were abusing it which led to many players leaving, citing "frequent ganking" as their reason.
I've seen other MMOs, like Eve used as an example that open FFA PvP works. It's a disingenuous claim because, as has been stated, the PvP in Eve is not "anytime anywhere". You can *try* to attack another player in higher security space... just expect to be destroyed yourself. You cannot attack other players inside a station. When the "Walking In Stations" feature is added, you will still not be able to attack other players at will. So, compared to a MMO where you can PK someone anytime, anywhere with no restrictions, Eve is not a wide-open FFA PvP MMO. If not because of strict restrictions, then certainly so because would-be gankers aren't willing to risk their own ships by doing it in high security space.
Another attempted argument I've seen often, which always makes me chuckle, is how popular World of Warcraft is and it has PvP. This is often from the same people who, in any other situation, would quickly state that WoW's PvP sucks, that it's "carebear" or that "It doesn't have real PvP". Funny how all that changes when they're looking for some kind of evidence to prove that FFA PvP is popular, though. Suddenly WoW's PvP becomes a boon to their cause.
That said, WoW is, even on the PvP servers, does most certainly *not* have a FFA wide-open PvP system with lootable corpses and is not a good example of proof that people would enjoy one.
This whole idea that somehow a game with more hardcore FFA PvP with lootable corpses and all that would attract more players has not been proven, ever. In every case that it's been tried, it's either done abysmally or the system had to be toned down to stop players from leaving. The only people it would attract more of are, frankly, the exact kind of people most players - including PvP'ers - wouldn't want around. The "FFA PvP" crowd are certainly far more vocal than others... but that's about where its popularity ends.
And as has been pointed out, the introduction of PvP to Ryzom when it happened did *not* bring in a bunch of new players. It drove a bunch of existing players away. There really isn't any better proof than that.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I wish anyone who said this would just STFU.
Why? Because there's no way in hell Age of Conan had a worse launch then Vanguard or Ryzom. It's the popular thing to say right now and is pissing me the hell off. I'm not an AoC fan maniac at all but the game has never deserved the immense flack it gets from this site especially. Sorry Metalhead also I don't mean to pick on you specifically I'm just losing my patience for this kind of comment. Overhype sucks! ><;;;;; And that's the main problem with both Vanguard and AoC, but anyway this is about Ryzom..
Moving on, the game is finally getting the right kind of love right now which does pleasantly surprise me. Currently tinkering with my old, old account and I am more hopeful for Ryzom's future then I was in the summer. The patch is great, of course I wasn't aware of most of the bugs fixed so I can't appreciate that, but the graphics have been pushed further and it's lovely!
For the topic of this thread I have to agree that no you cannot implement something so drastic into an already existing game unless you strip the game, redesign it and change it's name. The lure of the game to me is that it is a sandbox type with consensual PvP. Most sandboxes in my experience are not consensual and I lose my cool pretty fast in those games. And I prefer not to
Ryzom's sense of freedom also stems from choosing not to participate in certain features, like PvP.
(,,,)=^__^=(,,,)
Aye. Beside that mmorpg's dont have the best launches in the game-industry, Ryzom's and Vanguards launch werent very good either. (Or spellborn, WoW, etc). I think I've seen two, maybe three, good launches in the mmo-history since Earth & Beyond... Now that I think of it, I think AoC was much smoother then VG or Ryzom...
Personally I don't mind spending some dappers on Ryzom, because I think the game deserves it, just because it's different, but that is beside the point
What Sxarlet said is to me the central point. Ryzom is differrent.
In my opinion, if FFA-PvP or full scale Faction PvP would be implemented, with the current population in mind, first, many veterans would just leave, and the remaining few crafters would just no longer be seen, because they will craft in there apartements or guild halls where they can't be attacked.
So to me World PvP would be the death sentence for Ryzom, because it would take away it uniqness. If PvP becomes the center of the game, no one will ever again appreciate the beauty of the unterlying PvE system.
I think we already aggreed that crafters become rediculous rich under the current system, so what you suggest would make crafters even richer, still with the same problem that there is nothing worth to spend dappers on.
Result: FFA-PvP -> less players, richer crafters
Is that what you want?
In my opinion the only thing that will fix the economy is many more players. That would definetly lower the crafter/non-crafter ratio, and that way raise the demand in crafted items.