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The things that the testers warned would kill this game...have.
Caligulug
Member Posts: 283
I played pirates for 17 months. 12 of those months were in the beta. The beta was leaps and bounds more fun than the live version for several reasons. I am going to list here the changes FLS made that murdered this game in cold blood.
1) 6V6 open sea battles. In beta it didnt matter how many ships where in an instance, it could be up to 12 per side I think at that time. So an armada of 24 level 30 players show up to flip a port. 6 level 50 players pick them off 6 at a time. How is that fair? How is that a "war". I have read a lot of naval history in my day and never once did I read where an armada showed up at an enemy port and because the enemy only had 6 ships to fight them with the armada sent 6 ships at them at a time to make it "fair". We warned FLS about this being a game breaker and were told..."we know what we are doing".
2) Line ship bundles. This little addition made it so ships of the line were almost unattainable to the average player. Grinding for hours and hours and hours to get enough money 10 million DBs for the largest ships made players say screw it and they left. The testers told FLS grinding for months to be able to afford a ship of the line is not what is going to keep people playing your game. HAVING a ship of the line will. Once again they disregarded our warnings and did it any way.
3) Adding avatar combat to the port battles. No body wanted this, it was not asked for by ANY testers. We just logged in one day and bam, you have to button mash for an hour to win a port battle? We stated it was crap and it would lose them customers. Once again, they laughed at us.
4) They never balanced the classes. For Christ sake they had FOUR GODDAM CLASSES. A MONKEY could have balanced that many classes before a games release. That along with the seemingly "magical" powers some classes had that could slow your ship or kill your entire crew with the push of a single button ruined the age of sail feeling the game had in beta.
The long and the short of it is FLS did not listen to their testers who pleaded with them not to make these changes. The changes were made and the game went down faster than michael jackson in a kindergarden class.
Signed JUDGE BLOODGOOD
Vice Admiral and commander of the Lords of the Burning Seas naval armada.
(PS) a little history of us in the game at TTH.
Comments
Since they made everything instanced, they had to do something to where it wouldn't turn into a 20 on 1 gankfest. Even still, their original plan wasn't so hot either. I think they've got it about right at the moment. I don't care for the instancing, but you go to war with what you have so to speak.
Some of the most devestating blows to this game I honestly believe had little to do with game mechanics. DrewC's comment I think lost them a ton of customers (where he basically advocated cheating as an acceptable playstyle) and made it official, POTBS is the only game that (at least it appears, not having that argument) openly encouraged one of the worst aspects of MMO PvP. Other games recognize it but don't praise it. They implement mechanics to limit ganking. When potential new customers saw that, they decided they wanted nothing of it.
There is also of course failing to stick with a plan, and trying to be all things to all people. As far as LSB's, I for one am THRILLED that elite ships of the line became a rarity before the massive cash infusion. I just don't like the way they did it with LSB's. Certainly they could've found a different way. What that is, I don't know. I like the idea of a ship of the line being a REAL game changer.
As far as "balance", what is balance. MMO's are not about "balance" in the sense that everyone has an equal shot of killing everyone else. If that's what you meant, I don't want balance. What I want is balance in TEAMS. Freetraders might be very manuverable, but have them try to slug out a fight at range with a Naval Officer. It just ain't happening. On this part I think POTBS is okay actually. The recent changes to ft's making them boardable (which even I as a FT I will admit is absurd when we couldn't be lol) are a step in the right direction. The only thing I want for FT's is when they remove our expert bonuses (they will) give us something in return. Also give us a real economic advantage.
You failed to mention them signing a deal with the devil over publishing, the famous quote "I spoke to Smedley and SOE have it down cold!". Many warned against SOE, I was still going to purchase until SOE f***ed up on a titanic scale. I couldn't purchase a pre-order because SOE hadn't shipped them, those that could get them (a few stores in the USA) ended up either not having the disc or the gamecode because someone at SOE forgot to put them in there!
I wanted this to work. I wanted to play it, however now it seems it'll be purchased by Smedley to add to the list of dismal faliures associated with the SOE brand name. If PotBS were a sailing ship she'd be the Marie Celeste, on a direct course to the SOE dry docks alongside Vanguard!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
That this game failed wasn't SOE fault. The devs didn't listen to the beta testers, that kills a lot of game.
In the AoC beta forum many testers warned about releasing to early and I heard the same happened in the WAR forums. While some testers might be wrong, all are never.
Just Blaming SOE for everything they publish isn't really fair even though they should check it up better before signing anything. Vanguard and SWG are their fault but not this.
I didn't say I blame SOE 100%, I was just saying they helped dig the grave. Ultimately the responsibility rests on FLS 100% for the troubles with the game.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Dont forget the last little slap of launching the game with 10 Fing servers.... Lots were to low a pop to play on.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
Nothing I warned about in beta was addressed:
- explore vast new lands -- nope, no lands to explore, can't explore at all
- see wondrous new sights -- sorry, no sights at all, except repetitive city scenes. And the sea is flat with no waves.
- battle the weather, hurricanes -- no, no weather at all. No whitecaps, no wind tells on the water. Nothing.
- become the best cannon maker in the New World -- sorry, everybody makes exactly the same things, nothing to learn.
- learn amazing avatar combat -- hah!
That leaves one thing: ship combat. PoTBS is a decent ship combat simulator, with some add-on features to make it into a MMO of sorts. Being a sailor IRL, I really enjoyed that part of the game. There is no other part in the game, really, anyway.
------------
2025: 48 years on the Net.
Given that this is a SOE "platform publishing" partner game, and the only one so far that actually RELEASED and didn't have to be bailed out by SOE to continue past 2 months, they win the championship.
HAHAHA thats a good way to look at it
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
That this game failed wasn't SOE fault. The devs didn't listen to the beta testers, that kills a lot of game.
In the AoC beta forum many testers warned about releasing to early and I heard the same happened in the WAR forums. While some testers might be wrong, all are never.
Just Blaming SOE for everything they publish isn't really fair even though they should check it up better before signing anything. Vanguard and SWG are their fault but not this.
Wether the game had problems or not doesn't change the fact that if the things Agricola1 said did in fact happen which no one seems to be disputing it certainly didn't help and is at the least a pretty crack headed move.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
That this game failed wasn't SOE fault. The devs didn't listen to the beta testers, that kills a lot of game.
In the AoC beta forum many testers warned about releasing to early and I heard the same happened in the WAR forums. While some testers might be wrong, all are never.
Just Blaming SOE for everything they publish isn't really fair even though they should check it up better before signing anything. Vanguard and SWG are their fault but not this.
Wether the game had problems or not doesn't change the fact that if the things Agricola1 said did in fact happen which no one seems to be disputing it certainly didn't help and is at the least a pretty crack headed move.
Blameing SOE for the Trai..Ship Wreak that was POTBS is a joke. Yes Soe Screwed Up. But if they were the ONLY ones that were willing to go along with FLS then Its not soe's fault. Need Publishers that arnt fudge ups.
ANd Soe Fudged up Bigtime. But the Complaint is with FLS and SOE. The game STILL would have sucked as it launched. there would have Still been 10 servers. H2H would still be a joke and the servers Woulda been Empty Probably Faster If not for people like me who had a station pas and kept poping in every few months.
SOE Is NOT to blame for this game. FLS has said SEVERAL times that if it lives or Dies its ON THEIR HANDS.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
That this game failed wasn't SOE fault. The devs didn't listen to the beta testers, that kills a lot of game.
In the AoC beta forum many testers warned about releasing to early and I heard the same happened in the WAR forums. While some testers might be wrong, all are never.
Just Blaming SOE for everything they publish isn't really fair even though they should check it up better before signing anything. Vanguard and SWG are their fault but not this.
soe's stated goal is to have a lot of subpar-average mmo's under the station pass.
doesn't take much looking into an mmo to figure out that it'll be at least subpar.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
"There's no crying in the Red." What killed it for me was more an extension to this. The blatant disregard that FLS had for community rules and issues. When the server mergers came about one group moved to a server with the sole intent of griefing and destroying the server. The were rude and abrasive in the forums. Rude and abrasive in the game. They put their own nation in the red time and again instead of taking the fight to the enemy. They crippled their own nation's economy. They even had posts on their forums patting each other on the back for the warnings they got from mods. A bannable violation in its own right. Not one member was ever banned. Not one dev or mod ever acknowledged their stance or admitted there was a problem. They got what they set out. Most of the people in their nation left and I believe most of the other nations decided it wasn't worth it, either. To this day I don't think a single one of them was banned for any of the bannable offenses they engaged in daily.
I'm sorry, but when a company allows rot like that to fester in its player base it shouldn't be surprised when the player base abandons ship.
Not just another pretty color.
"There's no crying in the Red." What killed it for me was more an extension to this. The blatant disregard that FLS had for community rules and issues. When the server mergers came about one group moved to a server with the sole intent of griefing and destroying the server. The were rude and abrasive in the forums. Rude and abrasive in the game. They put their own nation in the red time and again instead of taking the fight to the enemy. They crippled their own nation's economy. They even had posts on their forums patting each other on the back for the warnings they got from mods. A bannable violation in its own right. Not one member was ever banned. Not one dev or mod ever acknowledged their stance or admitted there was a problem. They got what they set out. Most of the people in their nation left and I believe most of the other nations decided it wasn't worth it, either. To this day I don't think a single one of them was banned for any of the bannable offenses they engaged in daily.
I'm sorry, but when a company allows rot like that to fester in its player base it shouldn't be surprised when the player base abandons ship.
I can make a pretty good guess as to whom you mean, but it could be more than one group. I have heard of despicable behaviour from Brits and Pirates, though in my case it really was the Brits whom I "experienced".
But you're right, when the Brits insta-flipped three ports at once, right after the devs had posted something in a devlog to the effect that it was indeed an exploit, you knew that the "community" in question didn't care for rules or fair play. Then the devs compounded the matter by refusing to hand back the ports the British took that way. That was the beginning of a long history of faction imbalance which they never solved.
Oh well, I'm done with that game anyway. Now I can only reminisce over what it might have been, instead of what it was.
Actually, the group in question I was speaking of were French. But you're right, the insta-flipping was a problem as well. It is something that really needed to be addressed in the mechanics of the game.
Not just another pretty color.
Ah yes, the Antigua French. Forgot about them, because I never experienced them first-hand. From what I read, though, they were notorious for driving even their own side away... No small feat in itself.
LOL we antigua french didnt ruin the game! We owned everyone within bounds of the rule setforth by SOE! BTW OMG GFUS.
why r we still talking about this dead game anyway? Everything listedin this thread is just ANOTHER reason this game failed, they are all right for various reasons.
OMG I'm Drunk, French Foreign Legion, we killed morgan, then we killed Antigua, no one could hang with us.
They took the Aussie server. That killed it for me. Everything else had a workaround.
I guess that is one way to "win" a game.
Interesting philosophy, parasitic in nature... play a game (find a host), 'own it' by forcing others out (suck the blood dry), then move onto another game (find another host).
Thanks for sharing that. I keep forgetting at times that such a mentality exists and actions are needed to counter such a destructive behavior to a business.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
OMG is still in PotBS, French on Antigua and Pirates on Blackbeard. As much as they might like to think they did, they didn't destroy anything. When OMG left PotBS for Warhammer, the Spanish nation took their place as the dominant RvR force on Antigua. Now, having found WAR boring a few of the OMG guys resurrected PotBS OMG and are still active in PvP and RvR.
They do have a bunch of jerks, but they also have a bunch of decent players. I've seen game breakers (SomethingAwful forums' Goons in Eve-Online, for example, whose stated purpose is to screw up games for other people); OMG I'm Drunk aren't game breakers (no matter how hard sickdoll wants to chestthump about it).
The problem with such "hardcore" players is that they inevitably put the size of their "e-peen" before anything else, even the future of the game.
As for the SA Goons, I never played EvE but I did encounter a few of them in other games, and I agree with you. Their "e-peen" isn't even a consideration, just another object of mockery.
I'm a cynic myself, as many of the Something Awful guys pretend to be, but I'd never mingle with their crowd -- self-congratulatory snarkiness, especially when it consists of little more than American navel-gazing, has never been a source of interest for me. Tell me if you like or believe in anything, and then I'll be listening. If it's just put-downs for put-downs' sake, there are more intelligent things to be done.
As for their attitude in games, they don't recruit -- that's not their purpose, since it would involve letting in an outsider (not acquainted with the proper conduct of the SA forums) who might not get privy to their real aim. I'd be very surprised if they even liked online games. They don't need to get engaged in the development of a community -- they already have their own at the Mothersite (based on the amazingly dubious model of a subscription-based forum) where they can revel in their brand of anarchic tastelessness rooted in self-parody.
But whether SA Goons or genuine "hardcore", both will ruin a game in the long run -- the former just for the fun of it, the latter because that's how they can demonstrate to the world that they "pwned". The second category wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact that it's now a contest of who has the largest guild that they can transplant from previous games, while the rest of us players, if we are welcome at all to join them, will be little more than peons in the larger objective.
If there's one thing I hate about WoW, it's the constant need to stroke the ego of every button-masher plunking in his $15 (which goes a long way towards explaining the ridiculous level scale -- I can't even hit an NPC six levels above me? Come on) without any need of skill or any other factor outside of available time. But one thing I hate about Shadowbane and other games of that type, is that not even half of the game is available to players who aren't in guild leaderships. Maybe I'd love to design a city? Maybe I'd like to be content with my shack in the woods without having a zergball tearing it down within minutes? Maybe I'd just like to be an independent trader, or a diplomat, or to run a small independent city just satisfied with what it has, which would already be too much to certain crowds? WoW doesn't offer this to anyone, since it's just one large, shallow theme park; Shadowbane offered this to a select few among its already niche player core. No wonder one of these games is almost dead, while the other is killing everything else off the market.
A personal note: I got screwed over (along with perhaps more than a few guildies) by my own guild leader in SB because the game forced me to rely on him even though I didn't know him and would never have trusted him to this extent; so I have reached the conclusion that if a game forces me to play the fearfully obedient lackey to someone I don't know and who wouldn't give a damn about me when I'd need help, I just won't play it. (Good luck with that, Darkfall.)
You are correct, most of us really are not jerks, and those that found us to be usually started it, or just couldnt hang with it. We are just people who enjoy a good pvp game. The above about breaking the game was 100% meant as a joke. Forum pvp is a part of our mentality as much as ingame. I just enjoy perpetuating the boogyman aspect of our crew to those who only know about us in legend. It was a sad day when I unsubscribed to what was a great game. We still have a very active potbs player base, it is just a fraction of what it was on morgan/early antigua.
I've never played Shadowbane myself, but as an EVE vet who ran a moderately successful (though not 'famous') 0.0 corporation for a year I can completely understand the trust issue. It sounds like SB is as much a game of social engineering as EVE is, though maybe in different ways (I don't wanna be too liberal with my assumptions since I never played it).
With EVE, if a corp wants to "get" anywhere, there has to be a willingness of the members to contribute their time, effort and in-game resources to the corporation's aims. For my corp, the first big project was we needed a half a billion for our first player starbase... later we needed a few hundred mil for our first capital ship pilot's skillbooks (having one cap pilot subsequently helped us recruit other established cap pilots - investment paid off ten times over), then it was the need for miners to contribute dozens of hours' worth of their mining labor by selling their minerals to the corporation for roughly 8% less than they would've gotten on the open market, and so on. While the return on these investments was not immediate, nor in the case of the miners was it even directly paid back in cash, there was a return on all of these contributions for the individual members. They had trusted me with their time and effort, they had worked with me and suffered patiently through our time of "nobody-ness", they believed in me that I could get us established if given enough time to do so and I didn't want my reputation stained by thirty people on the forum saying "that dirty Havohej robbed us of billions of ISK that was supposed to pay for making us all uber! booo!" y'know?
SOME people don't care about that sort of thing and won't think twice to rip off anybody on the internet, be it real money or virtual game currency. It sounds like your SB guild leader was that type of player.
It sounds like EVE is also similar in that if you want to really, really experience the 0.0 game (I don't mean just roaming through and ganking the carebears who just mine and farm NPCs all day, I mean really being a territorial power like Band of Brothers for example) you have to be involved in a player group and you have to put your trust in the leadership. For a lot of players, whether because they're casuals, or because they've been screwed (like you), that's just not an attractive option. I'm sure you can understand though that if the really 'big' end-game economic stuff were so easy that one guy could just build it and defend it all by his lonesome, it wouldn't really mean anything, all the epic-ness would be gone from it and that would be more harmful to the game than the alternative which is forced teamwork and social engineering.
Right now, PotBS doesn't have that sort of forced teamwork. With Lineship Structure Bundles being such a large undertaking, they're close to that sort of thing, but a solo player CAN produce LSBs himself - it just takes longer and is quite a bit more expensive. When Port Governance (which is third in line in the "Big Projects" category; first in line was AvCom Revamp which goes live next patch, second in line is Skirmish which has been the big buzzword the last few months and I think is close to completion) gets into the game, it will almost certainly be a forced teamwork game mechanic that only the most well-organized and possibly effective PvP societies will really be able to experience. While this exclusivity doesn't help the casual gamer, or the anti-social guy who just stubbornly refuses to "play nicely with others" in a "massively-multiplayer" game, it beats the alternative (games like Diablo where you can literally do everything there is to do all by yourself). The only option for folks like us is to start our own guild/corp/society/whatever and find like-minded people to enjoy the game with.
As far as the leetkid PvP groups like OMG I'm Drunk, every game has them. Hell, after I got burnt out on running my corp in EVE, I joined one - an alliance called "G00DFELLAS" (the o's are zeros). WoW has 'em, WAR has 'em, they're a "fact of gaming." As long as they're not devoting all their energy to finding exploits to try to ruin a game, they can't really harm anything. Sure, they talk a lot of trash on forums, but any game development company will tell you that only about 30% of their players actually read their forums anyway :P The ones you have to look out for are the griefers; you know, your spawn campers, noob gankers, that sort of player. FLS has made a lot of changes to help protect the player from being griefed. Griefers will always find something they can do to annoy you, of course, but from what I gather off of the PotBS forums, there are a lot less ways to grief now than there were in January when it released.
You are correct, most of us really are not jerks, and those that found us to be usually started it, or just couldnt hang with it. We are just people who enjoy a good pvp game. The above about breaking the game was 100% meant as a joke. Forum pvp is a part of our mentality as much as ingame. I just enjoy perpetuating the boogyman aspect of our crew to those who only know about us in legend. It was a sad day when I unsubscribed to what was a great game. We still have a very active potbs player base, it is just a fraction of what it was on morgan/early antigua.
I'm glad to hear you say that, sickdoll
I don't personally like OMG, mainly 'cause of all the hype and arrogance, but I'm in Nine Winds and the best PvPers of our soc said they respect you so I started paying more attention and you guys really do back up all your trash talk so I can't help respecting you too.
But I'll still take any opportunity to gank anyone with the OMG I'm Drunk tag on their name lol
That this game failed wasn't SOE fault. The devs didn't listen to the beta testers, that kills a lot of game.
In the AoC beta forum many testers warned about releasing to early and I heard the same happened in the WAR forums. While some testers might be wrong, all are never.
Just Blaming SOE for everything they publish isn't really fair even though they should check it up better before signing anything. Vanguard and SWG are their fault but not this.
ok lets be clear vanguard wasnt sonys fault remember sigil? 5 or so years for a unpolished broken game?
swg clearly sony had something to do with it but again i think lucas arts might be to blame here as well
potbs not sonys fault asshats never listened and im major ticked i loved this game as something different the avatar combat was a joke every city looking same was a joke pirates having economy was a joke they tried to be everything to everyone and noone liked it.
now my biggest gripe with sony is the friggun way they used gambling as a cash cow with there tcg and then turned around and gave henchmen to eq killing what was left of group game then to add another nail they added rmt to the game thus ending my dealings with all soe products except planetside wich im sure they willdo something to screw that up soon enuff.
Some lead and some follow I prefer to stand beside!
Ah, the same lies. It is rare I call someone a liar but it is so obvious that it fits.
OMGs actions made it clear their intent. They were the last of the expat French to come to Antigua. They did so with a video which told the entire "you're %#^#%ed". OMG put more French ports in the red than the other three nations combined. They did so for the expressed intent of punishing the other French for perceived slights. They routinely crippled French trade around the Florida cape by taking ports of no strategic value. They were rarely seen outside of strong French waters. Any time the other French could get a circle up with OMG's constant spamming of French waters with circles they never showed up for battle. The whole time anyone got upset with their antics (who wouldn't) they beat their chests, were rude, abrasive, insulting and in the end... somehow... the victims?
I think it is telling that when I left there was not a single non-Morgan French soc that hadn't had most of their members express a desire to cancel because of OMG and OMG alone.
People can lie. OMG regularly lies and, clearly, still does. Action's don't.
Not just another pretty color.