I would think theres a place for carebears as merchants and crafters. The Halliburton of the mmo world so to speak. As long as people keep fighting and losing or aquiring items, merchants and crafters will have a robust economy.
Those that want to fight bosses in peace in instanced dungeons, then there are plenty of mmos that provide that type of experience.
I do have to +1 the concept that the playerbase of mmos have changed dramatically. Back in the early UO days, there was indeed a level of maturity and humor in PVP encounters. No one knew about mmos and those that played were all hardcore enthusiasts. I don't think we will ever see that type of player base in an mmo again... ever.
When you have millions of players, you are bound to get social deviants in the mix. That's why with complete freedom in an MMO (FFA), along with that should be consequences that fit the inevitable crimes.
I'm ready for an mmo that breaks the established mold. There seems to be a market out there for people that want something more than the watered down generic pve fest.
The real test is in the quality of the gamers who fight each other in the PVP game.
In the early days of UO when everyone is happy with the game (novel and excited), many are nice. People would attack readied and armed players, and someone fly by and wave to a fisherman or miner instead of random ganks. Superior players would back off if they find the opponent unable to put up any resistance. No point killing someone who simply is no match.
So do these people disappear, or what? You think people change their playing style as soon as they get bored of the game?
As the novelty wears out, gankers rule. They farm the city exits, they ambush the young ones. The point of the game is not for fun, but to grief someone else, whoever else. The game failed. The gankers got ganked themselves when the casuals retreat from the game, gankers have to gank the lesser gankers or be ganked. The once proud gankers start crying, and wars of words and hostility replaces wars with respect and fun.
I have a question for ya here: define the word "gank".
For now, I'll operate under the assumption that it means "to kill an opponent who represents a trivial challenge, possibly for the purpose of 'griefing' players".
To that, I'll reply that you may have a romanticized ideal of combat, that it should only take place between roughly equal opponents, that it should be engaged on friendly terms.
Can chivalry exist in war? Of course. But it's absolute madness to say it should, and expect everyone to treat it as such.
I may kill noobs because they make for good gold/hour/risk. I'm all about the money. I may kill noobs because I get bullied at school and want to take it out on others online. I'm all about being the bad guy. I may kill noobs because they may be a threat. I'm all about being paranoid.
Whatever the case may be, people have their reasons (good or bad) for choosing their actions. Part of the appeal of Darkfall (and UO before it) was the freedom to make these choices. If you have a problem with griefers, you are certainly free to oppose and kill them.
Most of the ffa PVP games after UO are almost immediately taken up by gankers who tried to rampant and grief as much as possible while there are interested new casual players while the sense of novelty lasts. Then the game dies. Once the casuals bail, the gankers left, leaving behind a dead game. EVE is an exception, an issue long debated elsewhere. No other ffa PVP game survives in any decent form.
I'm curious, what other popular sandbox, FFA, full loot game even existed after UO? I can think of a grand total of three: EVE, Shadowbane, and AC:Darktide.
You could just as easily call Shadowbane a failure due to poor controls, excessive bugs, and rampant hacking. And there are still a few who would (and did) swear by it regardless of these flaws.
Darktide did not kill AC, and within the context of AC, was successful in its own right as a server.
So what makes EVE an exception, when it was one of the only three mainstream FFA PVP games of the post UO era? And you can just as easily point to bugs and hacks being the downfall of SB, and AC1 dying a natural death.
Taking a look at the title of this thread and some of the self-proclaiming "heroes" here already tell the story. Even before they start playing the game, they already rampage a message board, belittling others as carebears. Ah, they feel great calling others carebears. Anyone else is carebear, only those who pat each other's shoulder and proclaim each other a hero are the true players. What a sense of delusion. A hero on a message board. Oh great.
Who's calling themselves a hero? I don't see any heroes here.
I see a player defining what a "carebear" is; that is, essentially, "one who whines and complains about PvP to the game developers, resulting in anti-PvP changes to the game". So, what's wrong with that now?
I have yet to see "carebear" actively directed at any actual person in this thread, even from the one virulent anti-"carebear" poster. Did this individual proclaim his heroism? Is he being hailed as one by others who agree with him?
You clearly dislike the combative attitude displayed by some Darkfall fans here. Can you prove that would be an objective detraction to a game, or is it nothing more than a personal dislike?
These poor sobs has no other ways to build their perverb sense of righteous and has to insult, to grief and to smack talk to people they do not know. Very sad to know that DF attracts these bunch of "players" even before the game is available for subscription.
What is this, Kumbaya-Online?
So you have a problem with insults, "griefing" (on a message board with no direct interaction, no less), and smack talk. You have the option of not participating in it, of course, but you seem to be asserting this behavior is inherently negative. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Very likely DF will lose most of their business with these "players" wrecking the quality of communities. A few bad apples will destroy the whole batch. They either caught on and rot, or got throw out as a whole lot.
Oh you think so?
You make the assumption that "gankers (define, please)", "griefers", people with aggressive, combative posting styles on forums, and just about anyone who doesn't share your sense of noble civility comprise one giant, monolithic group with the power to destroy games at will.
Read the WoW forums sometime. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villiany.
You think everyone who plays a game like Darkfall will be one of the above?
What's the difference between a game like DF/UO and a game like WoW, now that we've proven your "unsavory element" is near universal? The fact that they have more ability to affect you in DF/UO?
Many players (not uncoincidentally DF fans) would gladly trade safety for freedom.
In fact, for many players, the tradeoff between security and freedom is not one at all, but a win-win. They welcome the chance to fight back against their enemies. What can you do if a level 70 camps you as a level 20? What can you do with a level 70 of your own faction keeps killing a quest NPC you need?
Yes, we've established that some people, possibly yourself, will refuse to play in a game where the unsavory element exists with the power to affect them. Clearly, this is not a demographic the developers anticipate to do well in.
I believe I have better places to spend my money and time than to hang around with these people. I do understand why most gamers want some form of controlled PVP in games. Simply because they do not want these "specially proud players" around. Who want to sit next to a mad man in a restaurant?
You are certainly free to choose which games to play or not play.
But bear in mind that for others, what they're looking for in a game is not what they're looking for in a restaurant.
A player who wants to relax in games, have fun, do his own thing at his own pace would probably not enjoy a risk-filled environment full of bloodthirsty and hostile players he has to be on guard against.
A player who wants to compete would welcome nothing more than hordes of aggressive, hated enemies and a game that affords them the freedom to fight.
I predict that someone would immediately jump on me and call me carebears, whatever ... does it matter? They do not know me at all, and they can come to judge. :P
Nope, not me, but I'll say this:
I may be wrong, but it's you who's judging.
Now, I can certainly judge your actions and words without knowing you, but you appear to be passing value judgement on the playstyles and apparent attitudes of players.
You call them "deluded", "poor sobs", and "perverse". You compare them to rotten apples, and imply that their existence will ruin games. You clearly imply that their mentality (which was not clearly defined) was inherently negative. And from where I'm sitting, you appear to consider their view an inferior one.
Here's how I see it. Not only do you lump a large and diverse playerbase into a monolithic "bad guys" group, you also appear to assume individual playstyles and motivations have intrinsic superior or inferior value.
For example:
A is a fiercely competitive hardcore powergamer. He fights everyone and everything that crosses his path to prove his strength. He'll do nearly whatever it takes to gain the advantage. An unlucky newbie who crosses his path can expect to be 1-shotted. Fortunately, he doesn't have a sadistic streak, and won't bother cleaning out the corpse of its low level valuables. It's all about "pwning bitches" for this gamer.
B is the shifty and cunning leader of a gang of bandits. His group of merry men kill and rob anyone in sight. Newbie? Red is dead. He might have something valuable. Even if he doesn't, he could be a threat. Dead men tell no tales. They'll hide, lie in wait, and ambush in superior numbers to gain the advantage. However, they do believe using social deception and trust-based schemes to turn a profit is weak. They're killers, not scammers. They also refuse to use exploits or hacks, for fear of getting banned.
C is a person whose sole purpose is to "get a reaction" from other players? Who doesn't feed off his own internal satisfaction, but derives it from the (negative) emotions caused in others? He'll camp a level 10 for hours. He'll kill important quest NPCs till the cows come home. He'll use exploits and bugs. He'll block doorways. He'll lie, cheat, and scam. He'll pretend to be a person's friend, so he can screm 'em over later. It means nothing to him how "cheap", "unskilled" or "mindless" his activities are; his only goal is to cause trouble for others.
Now the question is: are any of these players and their motivations inherently better or worse than the others?
The answer: hell no, yet you seemingly lump them all as one, and insinuate that your "honorable" style is "better".
Originally posted by thinktank001 People = Reaction It does the game no good when the harm is already done. Although I will certainly eat my words if I see these guilds with their " PK Free Zones " doing patrols 24 / 7.
Yeah, but the other guy was comparing it to real life, with police and laws.
What exactly do the police do in real life? Oh yeah, that's right: in most cases, they show up after the crime has been committed and catch the bad guy.
Clans would be defensively patrolling there territory anyway; the patrols can double as law enforcement (if they so choose).
Obviously, safety could not be guaranteed, but police in real life can't do that either. In both cases, they'd be first and foremost a deterrent, and punishment after the fact.
Ffa pvp in a game (+full loot) will lead to ultimate disaster (thats what UO was named for) thats what it is to me .. If you thought UO was an "Ultimate Disaster", then Darkfall might not be the game for you. UO had a quite large following, and my people to this day would like to play another UO. Most of these people happen to Darkfall anticipators. Coincidence?
while in our reallife there just a few psychopaths very few ..or mass murders ..unfortunatly in every pvp game there are a ton of thoose ... the only penalty hard enough to stop ppls playing psycho in RL is our ethics and the LAW we got we do have that in RL .. but in a computer game no rule or penalty comes to my mind to stop such players .If ppls like to test how it is to be psycho or a murderer they do it, and there aint any rules to prevent ppls from overdoing things in a game 1) You know, there isn't any magical barrier that stops murders from killing you and stealing your stuff in real life. The law is made by people. Law enforcement is performed by people. The game is designed for players to create and enforce their own rules. If your clan is large and powerful enough, you can make your own laws that prohibit PKing in your territory. You know, just like real life.
..second account ? new account ... just test a pvper on another server even if you only have 1 char per server ..mass murdering i come or a bunch of newbie pvper come kill your super skilled char ( you think is god) ..you loose your gear .. you go ld and loose your gear you get killed when your low on health and loose your gear .. sadly there no options to prevent loosing your gear ..and if its full loot and you have hard earned good gear it kinda sucks to loose it ..so why even bother .. (i actually would like to have some meaning to my magic sword of firestorm) and not to loose it on the first breeze of enemy. 2) If you think losing your gear is the end of the world, then this probably isn't the game for you. Dying and losing all your epic items in WoW, for example, would be a lot more severe - that's because WoW, and most contemporary MMOs, are all about the acquisition of gear. If you hadn't noticed, games like Darkfall aren't all about hoarding a collection of shinies. What do you do if your ship gets blown up in EVE? Oh yeah, that's right. Go buy a new one. What's the incentive to using good mods? To have a better chance of blowing up the other guy and stealing his stuff.
since noone is able to not die in a ffa pvp all will die sometimes because of some circumstances in or outside game reasons .. so actually you have to life with no gear ..or just some mundane shit to equip ..since the really awesome gear will be gone soon anyway ..what a waste . unless you always walk with the most giant sized army of friends on the server you kinda have no chance ...to keep what you got ..thats something bothering me ... dead comes swift in games ..but you always continue coming back to life ..so actually you cant call it diyng its more like a penalty for not being able to do what you tought you could ...do ..but why should that penalty be like a real dead does it make sense ..for a game ...for some it might for me it doesnt. 3) How can you have played EVE for 758 hours and still write something like this?
the economy part with gear sounds nice but its just gear changing ppls hands anyway as long as it isnt destroyed by diyng it doesnt make a difference ..i want some other way for a economy in a game and i kinda dislike gear that cannot be reapaired to full or even decaying gear . I never heard of Excalibur decaying. To name a item most might know. Why should my magic xy of whatever be gone after 20 hours of fighting something.
4) Two words: EVE ONLINE. You lose all your stuff if you die in EVE. That forces you to buy new stuff, driving the player economy. EVE doesn't have item decay, but most everything in the game requires ammunition. Higher end aspects of the game require maintenance (starbases, capital ships, T2 cycle), which also drives the player economy. So what if items decay over time? If you hadn't gotten the picture yet, this is one game where you don't get too attached to your items. On the other hand, I have heard the devs mention magical artifact-type items that do not decay, and will be extremely rare and likely unique to the server.
btw i will try darfkfall its the only interesting sounding game to me atm but i dont think it will holde me for long if there arent different rule set servers ..for each theyre own. 5) Not gonna happen. Ever see EVE putting out a PVE-only server? Ever see WoW putting out a FFA PVP server, hardcore permadeath server, full loot server, or "Horde/Alliance all on one team" server? Of course not, because all of these games were designed around concepts that could not possibly work with those rulesets. Servers based on these rules would be gimmicks at best, and detract from and dilute the "real" game.
1) Yes there isnt ..but in RL ..its highly unlikely that you meet such a person ever. In a game there much more of thoose its just a game why not just kill player xy cause its fun type players...In a game theres no law made by ppls wich affects everything there might be some that try to make a law but it doesnt affect a entire server ever. Nor is it sure that it even affects the territory your clan tries to protect.(now if darkfall had an option for a clan to claim a place and force it to be pve only and ppls wouldn even be able to attack others in that territory that would be a great thing but i highly doubt something like that exists or it wouldn be a pvp game anymore after all yea right) Like it does in RL to the Country ur living in your able to kill somone but ultimately your sooner or later going to be sued for it.. Well its a complicated matter lets just say i dislike ppls with no sense of justice in a game and you cant do anything against thoose because its a game ..they can switch accounts change names and youl never know who he is now. They can endlessly harm you but you cant harm them in a way to make them angry like your surely are after being ganked.
2) I dont think loosing gear has to be the end of the world but its a very good method to vary from other players. Since most games dont have much other choices to vary ..after a while there 100 or more ppls who are all the same skill wise ..since who prevents player 2 to learn the same magic ice rain slitter gust spell from that npc then you did ? and if theres no gear to make you different ,like having more hitpoints or having more armor better resists more strength something your style fits ..it just seems a bit boring to me ..after all i never saw a game yet with more then a few ways to skill a character best.
3) i didn play eve for 758 hours wonder where thats stated .. i did once a trial on it for about 1 hour but i rather like fantasy and having a character to move around not a ship.
4) look answer 2.
5) Your prolly right i doubt they listen to anyone since wich game did so far. they surely would have to change how the loot is dropped in a no can loose gear world like make it very rare ..and very hard to create gear in case it drops like candy in pvp version.They would have to insert intelligent AI npcs .. for a pve server (oh wait they say they have that) and something to do for ppls as the progress like targets to defeat raids and so on ..no can do that ...so were all about killing each other i guess but it will hold my interest for a week or two im sure : after that its all about waitng for the next mmorpg coming
@ cortanya, the last guy who gets pleasure off of other peoples suffering, I can safely place as inferior and unwanted in a game.
Its one thing to have this mindset in gta but in an mmo where that 1 guy's pleasure leads to 20 others' displeasure is something not wanted in an mmo. However there's no way to bar him from coming, and instead of stopping his means to create chaos (which would destroy the freedom of the other pvp type people you mentioned, and this is exactly what carebear games do), you can make it easier for other people to escape his clutches. DF does this through real stealth, a gigantic gameworld, and the ability for the victim to fight back.
This will not be uo2 your in for a surprise OP you have obvious not follow Darkfall alot.
And carebears hate free for all pvp and specially with full loot they wont play Darkfall or quit after a day:P.
But maybe you mean people who love free for all pvp but wanne play mostly pve or craft stuff, these are not carebears there just not full time pvpers and yes there is plenty of room for more then only pvp.
Defenition of carebears seems different meaning among many, go first read up some info on whats carebear before you make a topic with false statement about carebears.
Btw only haters vaporshouters and noobs newbees think its gankfest and trash talk and full of griefers anyone who have followed and got enough info about Darkfall know that will not be the case here.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Btw only haters vaporshouters and noobs newbees think its gankfest and trash talk and full of griefers anyone who have followed and got enough info about Darkfall know that will not be the case here.
Haha your jokeing right?
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. Samuel Adams
This will not be uo2 your in for a surprise OP you have obvious not follow Darkfall alot. And carebears hate free for all pvp and specially with full loot they wont play Darkfall or quit after a day:P. But maybe you mean people who love free for all pvp but wanne play mostly pve or craft stuff, these are not carebears there just not full time pvpers and yes there is plenty of room for more then only pvp. Defenition of carebears seems different meaning among many, go first read up some info on whats carebear before you make a topic with false statement about carebears.
Btw only haters vaporshouters and noobs newbees think its gankfest and trash talk and full of griefers anyone who have followed and got enough info about Darkfall know that will not be the case here.
Erm whats to stop someone from just making a crafter that stays in the city or guild city?
Whats to stop people from hiring 'mercenary' players to act as body guards and escort them if they don't want to be hassled with PvP themselves?
Whats to stop a guild having its PvPers guarding the entrance to a dungeon, whilst the PVErs loot away at the npcs?
Think about how EVE works, where most lowsec miners have bodyguard buddies to protect them.
This will not be uo2 your in for a surprise OP you have obvious not follow Darkfall alot. And carebears hate free for all pvp and specially with full loot they wont play Darkfall or quit after a day:P. But maybe you mean people who love free for all pvp but wanne play mostly pve or craft stuff, these are not carebears there just not full time pvpers and yes there is plenty of room for more then only pvp. Defenition of carebears seems different meaning among many, go first read up some info on whats carebear before you make a topic with false statement about carebears.
Btw only haters vaporshouters and noobs newbees think its gankfest and trash talk and full of griefers anyone who have followed and got enough info about Darkfall know that will not be the case here.
Erm whats to stop someone from just making a crafter that stays in the city or guild city?
Whats to stop people from hiring 'mercenary' players to act as body guards and escort them if they don't want to be hassled with PvP themselves?
Whats to stop a guild having its PvPers guarding the entrance to a dungeon, whilst the PVErs loot away at the npcs?
Think about how EVE works, where most lowsec miners have bodyguard buddies to protect them.
The Pve had better have MASSIVE loot to pay for 2-3 boddy guards...
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. Samuel Adams
One thing you fail to realise is that it isn't 1999 anymore. Whos to say that in 2009 a community will form itselfe the same way it did in the late nineties? The Internet/computers and gaming in general have spread like crazy and I think there are more kids and idiots online then ever befor. Not that I'm saying anything against ffa pvp (I'l definately give DF a shot if it comes out) but I'm confident that you will have more immaturity and trashtalk then wow or any other game.
Hell go look at the DF forums and you can see a bunch of grown up men acting like elitist twelve year olds...
This will not be uo2 your in for a surprise OP you have obvious not follow Darkfall alot. And carebears hate free for all pvp and specially with full loot they wont play Darkfall or quit after a day:P. But maybe you mean people who love free for all pvp but wanne play mostly pve or craft stuff, these are not carebears there just not full time pvpers and yes there is plenty of room for more then only pvp. Defenition of carebears seems different meaning among many, go first read up some info on whats carebear before you make a topic with false statement about carebears.
Btw only haters vaporshouters and noobs newbees think its gankfest and trash talk and full of griefers anyone who have followed and got enough info about Darkfall know that will not be the case here.
Erm whats to stop someone from just making a crafter that stays in the city or guild city?
Whats to stop people from hiring 'mercenary' players to act as body guards and escort them if they don't want to be hassled with PvP themselves?
Whats to stop a guild having its PvPers guarding the entrance to a dungeon, whilst the PVErs loot away at the npcs?
Think about how EVE works, where most lowsec miners have bodyguard buddies to protect them.
The Pve had better have MASSIVE loot to pay for 2-3 boddy guards...
Who do you think runs the majority of the Ecomony in EVE? the majority of hardcore PvPers don't as they are pvping.
As long as PVErs play smart and either sell resources or craft or farm valuable weapons/armor there will always be a demand for them! We'll need crafters else most of us will be struggling to find decent weapons to hit each other with!
I can guarantee that guilds that are looking for both PvPers and PVErs will be the most successful as they will be self sufficient rather than relying on other players loot
There is scope for unguilded and guilded PVErs alike - all we need to be is 1) accepting of them and 2) they need to play smart
One thing you fail to realise is that it isn't 1999 anymore. Whos to say that in 2009 a community will form itselfe the same way it did in the late nineties? The Internet/computers and gaming in general have spread like crazy and I think there are more kids and idiots online then ever befor. Not that I'm saying anything against ffa pvp (I'l definately give DF a shot if it comes out) but I'm confident that you will have more immaturity and trashtalk then wow or any other game.
Hell go look at the DF forums and you can see a bunch of grown up men acting like elitist twelve year olds...
Hope its not the case with the game's community come lauch, but I do agree with you on the forum - its a complete state.
I dont know why peopel always want the carebears to go away... personally id like to see as many different types of players and personalties as possible. Would suck if EVERYONE was a hardcore pvper
ok obviosily youce never been teamed up with one.
ill show you from experince " Hey i called dipps on that "Memory loop" you asshole ive been waiting for that for a long time , give it to me.
" no, you snooze you loose"
" Your mums a vagina face, go suck your mums pussy, you bicth,"
If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be someone to ride you - Bruce lee
Life Is not about how hard you can hit, It's about hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.- Rocky
That was years ago, when people where were decent. Now people is garbage in the 50% of cases, which is more than enough to ruin any gaming experience.
That sums it up in a nutshell why I have my doubts for DFO. Back in the early days of online gaming it was computer geeks that knew where to go to get their hands on their favorite games. You didn't have shelves dedicated to games in every retail store and D2D. The crowd has changed and I think with today's crowd, alternative rule set servers are a must for ALL games otherwise you are just begging to be a small subscriber/population, niche game.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Notice that in darkfall that you can kill everyone at anytime. Then notice how everyone seems to agree that nowadays the general population of mmo players are idiots. Anyone else here connect the dots? I honestly think In the early years of UO the pking is what brought the community together. It was a progression back then, u were farmed as a newbie, u started to learn how to fight so you helped hunt pks, and then u became a pk. It wasnt for everyone, but it wasnt meant for anyone to "win". It seems nowadays all the mmos are basically a first person shooter with questing. I mean why quest six months to have a new shinny gun of pwnage for counterstrike?? Uo was ruined by not having any risk/reward anymore. It became uo:gangwars. Alot of ppl that are looking at darkfall are old uo players that are looking for that heart pumping moments that used to happen on a daily basis. If I wanted a game I could pause Id be on my xbox not in a mmo. Ive wasted alot of money holding on to the hope they would fix uo to be fun again and trying other games but heres to hoping darkfall delivers on the fun that we once had.
People think this game is going to be all ganking and immature trash talk and I want to stand up for what I think is the majority of Darkfall players. I played UO, and what was special about UO was the community that was created in response to FFA, and the intensity inherent in a wide open game. Games today are simple, you go attack and kill easy and boring mobs over and over again. One or two games have PvP, but usually very controlled and with safe zones and looting rules. They have crafting, but it almost never means anything. You might make some money, but it's not necessary to the game and there's no such thing as reputation. I hear boring on every message board, for every game I look at, and I look at a lot. In UO, and hopefully Darkfall, crafting is essential. You're going to lose your equipment and need replacement gear. That gear will come from crafters, and you'll want to establish a relationship with a crafter you trust. That right there is what's missing from every other game for crafting. Bam, crafting is important and the economy is thriving in one rule. Because the world is dangerous you'll learn to look around, travel in groups, plan things out more carefully giving the game the sense of danger that's totally lacking in every game now. Guilds will be more than just chat rooms, people will band together for safety and to get an advantage and guilds will come to your rescue or to enact revenge and so guilds will be close knit again. There will be a place for gankers, and right alongside that place will be a place for people that only gank gankers. This gives you a chance to be a hero, and to make a difference. Reputation will mean something again and gankers will be rejected from respectable guilds. Before you jumpe on the carebear or ganker bandwagon give Darkfall a chance as a good and exciting game where you can play a more exciting, more meaningful existence. Look to Eve as a guide to what will happen, given enough of a player base, except that the action will be on the ground, which is more to my taste and hopefully yours.
i never did see this special community that UO supposedly had....I played for about an hour and after getting killed within seconds every time I took a step outside Brittain I deleted the game.......Yeah I could have probably hunted around for other unfortunates like myself but in general the idiots ruin FFA PVP games.......
I dont know why peopel always want the carebears to go away... personally id like to see as many different types of players and personalties as possible. Would suck if EVERYONE was a hardcore pvper
ok obviosily youce never been teamed up with one.
ill show you from experince " Hey i called dipps on that "Memory loop" you asshole ive been waiting for that for a long time , give it to me.
" no, you snooze you loose"
" Your mums a vagina face, go suck your mums pussy, you bicth,"
Incorrect.. I have been teamed with many and I just leave.. not that hard
just from reading the first post...aren't gankers and carebears really the same thing. carebears supposedly want it easy, minimal risk...and gankers only hit easy targets that present minimal risk?
just from reading the first post...aren't gankers and carebears really the same thing. carebears supposedly want it easy, minimal risk...and gankers only hit easy targets that present minimal risk?
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I would think theres a place for carebears as merchants and crafters. The Halliburton of the mmo world so to speak. As long as people keep fighting and losing or aquiring items, merchants and crafters will have a robust economy.
Those that want to fight bosses in peace in instanced dungeons, then there are plenty of mmos that provide that type of experience.
I do have to +1 the concept that the playerbase of mmos have changed dramatically. Back in the early UO days, there was indeed a level of maturity and humor in PVP encounters. No one knew about mmos and those that played were all hardcore enthusiasts. I don't think we will ever see that type of player base in an mmo again... ever.
When you have millions of players, you are bound to get social deviants in the mix. That's why with complete freedom in an MMO (FFA), along with that should be consequences that fit the inevitable crimes.
I'm ready for an mmo that breaks the established mold. There seems to be a market out there for people that want something more than the watered down generic pve fest.
The real test is in the quality of the gamers who fight each other in the PVP game.
In the early days of UO when everyone is happy with the game (novel and excited), many are nice. People would attack readied and armed players, and someone fly by and wave to a fisherman or miner instead of random ganks. Superior players would back off if they find the opponent unable to put up any resistance. No point killing someone who simply is no match.
So do these people disappear, or what? You think people change their playing style as soon as they get bored of the game?
As the novelty wears out, gankers rule. They farm the city exits, they ambush the young ones. The point of the game is not for fun, but to grief someone else, whoever else. The game failed. The gankers got ganked themselves when the casuals retreat from the game, gankers have to gank the lesser gankers or be ganked. The once proud gankers start crying, and wars of words and hostility replaces wars with respect and fun.
I have a question for ya here: define the word "gank".
For now, I'll operate under the assumption that it means "to kill an opponent who represents a trivial challenge, possibly for the purpose of 'griefing' players".
To that, I'll reply that you may have a romanticized ideal of combat, that it should only take place between roughly equal opponents, that it should be engaged on friendly terms.
Can chivalry exist in war? Of course. But it's absolute madness to say it should, and expect everyone to treat it as such.
I may kill noobs because they make for good gold/hour/risk. I'm all about the money. I may kill noobs because I get bullied at school and want to take it out on others online. I'm all about being the bad guy. I may kill noobs because they may be a threat. I'm all about being paranoid.
Whatever the case may be, people have their reasons (good or bad) for choosing their actions. Part of the appeal of Darkfall (and UO before it) was the freedom to make these choices. If you have a problem with griefers, you are certainly free to oppose and kill them.
Most of the ffa PVP games after UO are almost immediately taken up by gankers who tried to rampant and grief as much as possible while there are interested new casual players while the sense of novelty lasts. Then the game dies. Once the casuals bail, the gankers left, leaving behind a dead game. EVE is an exception, an issue long debated elsewhere. No other ffa PVP game survives in any decent form.
I'm curious, what other popular sandbox, FFA, full loot game even existed after UO? I can think of a grand total of three: EVE, Shadowbane, and AC:Darktide.
You could just as easily call Shadowbane a failure due to poor controls, excessive bugs, and rampant hacking. And there are still a few who would (and did) swear by it regardless of these flaws.
Darktide did not kill AC, and within the context of AC, was successful in its own right as a server.
So what makes EVE an exception, when it was one of the only three mainstream FFA PVP games of the post UO era? And you can just as easily point to bugs and hacks being the downfall of SB, and AC1 dying a natural death.
Taking a look at the title of this thread and some of the self-proclaiming "heroes" here already tell the story. Even before they start playing the game, they already rampage a message board, belittling others as carebears. Ah, they feel great calling others carebears. Anyone else is carebear, only those who pat each other's shoulder and proclaim each other a hero are the true players. What a sense of delusion. A hero on a message board. Oh great.
Who's calling themselves a hero? I don't see any heroes here.
I see a player defining what a "carebear" is; that is, essentially, "one who whines and complains about PvP to the game developers, resulting in anti-PvP changes to the game". So, what's wrong with that now?
I have yet to see "carebear" actively directed at any actual person in this thread, even from the one virulent anti-"carebear" poster. Did this individual proclaim his heroism? Is he being hailed as one by others who agree with him?
You clearly dislike the combative attitude displayed by some Darkfall fans here. Can you prove that would be an objective detraction to a game, or is it nothing more than a personal dislike?
These poor sobs has no other ways to build their perverb sense of righteous and has to insult, to grief and to smack talk to people they do not know. Very sad to know that DF attracts these bunch of "players" even before the game is available for subscription.
What is this, Kumbaya-Online?
So you have a problem with insults, "griefing" (on a message board with no direct interaction, no less), and smack talk. You have the option of not participating in it, of course, but you seem to be asserting this behavior is inherently negative. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Very likely DF will lose most of their business with these "players" wrecking the quality of communities. A few bad apples will destroy the whole batch. They either caught on and rot, or got throw out as a whole lot.
Oh you think so?
You make the assumption that "gankers (define, please)", "griefers", people with aggressive, combative posting styles on forums, and just about anyone who doesn't share your sense of noble civility comprise one giant, monolithic group with the power to destroy games at will.
Read the WoW forums sometime. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villiany.
You think e-thug "griefers" don't exist in WoW? They certainly do.
You think everyone who plays a game like Darkfall will be one of the above?
What's the difference between a game like DF/UO and a game like WoW, now that we've proven your "unsavory element" is near universal? The fact that they have more ability to affect you in DF/UO?
Many players (not uncoincidentally DF fans) would gladly trade safety for freedom.
In fact, for many players, the tradeoff between security and freedom is not one at all, but a win-win. They welcome the chance to fight back against their enemies. What can you do if a level 70 camps you as a level 20? What can you do with a level 70 of your own faction keeps killing a quest NPC you need?
Yes, we've established that some people, possibly yourself, will refuse to play in a game where the unsavory element exists with the power to affect them. Clearly, this is not a demographic the developers anticipate to do well in.
I believe I have better places to spend my money and time than to hang around with these people. I do understand why most gamers want some form of controlled PVP in games. Simply because they do not want these "specially proud players" around. Who want to sit next to a mad man in a restaurant?
You are certainly free to choose which games to play or not play.
But bear in mind that for others, what they're looking for in a game is not what they're looking for in a restaurant.
A player who wants to relax in games, have fun, do his own thing at his own pace would probably not enjoy a risk-filled environment full of bloodthirsty and hostile players he has to be on guard against.
A player who wants to compete would welcome nothing more than hordes of aggressive, hated enemies and a game that affords them the freedom to fight.
I predict that someone would immediately jump on me and call me carebears, whatever ... does it matter? They do not know me at all, and they can come to judge. :P
Nope, not me, but I'll say this:
I may be wrong, but it's you who's judging.
Now, I can certainly judge your actions and words without knowing you, but you appear to be passing value judgement on the playstyles and apparent attitudes of players.
You call them "deluded", "poor sobs", and "perverse". You compare them to rotten apples, and imply that their existence will ruin games. You clearly imply that their mentality (which was not clearly defined) was inherently negative. And from where I'm sitting, you appear to consider their view an inferior one.
Here's how I see it. Not only do you lump a large and diverse playerbase into a monolithic "bad guys" group, you also appear to assume individual playstyles and motivations have intrinsic superior or inferior value.
For example:
A is a fiercely competitive hardcore powergamer. He fights everyone and everything that crosses his path to prove his strength. He'll do nearly whatever it takes to gain the advantage. An unlucky newbie who crosses his path can expect to be 1-shotted. Fortunately, he doesn't have a sadistic streak, and won't bother cleaning out the corpse of its low level valuables. It's all about "pwning bitches" for this gamer.
B is the shifty and cunning leader of a gang of bandits. His group of merry men kill and rob anyone in sight. Newbie? Red is dead. He might have something valuable. Even if he doesn't, he could be a threat. Dead men tell no tales. They'll hide, lie in wait, and ambush in superior numbers to gain the advantage. However, they do believe using social deception and trust-based schemes to turn a profit is weak. They're killers, not scammers. They also refuse to use exploits or hacks, for fear of getting banned.
C is a person whose sole purpose is to "get a reaction" from other players? Who doesn't feed off his own internal satisfaction, but derives it from the (negative) emotions caused in others? He'll camp a level 10 for hours. He'll kill important quest NPCs till the cows come home. He'll use exploits and bugs. He'll block doorways. He'll lie, cheat, and scam. He'll pretend to be a person's friend, so he can screm 'em over later. It means nothing to him how "cheap", "unskilled" or "mindless" his activities are; his only goal is to cause trouble for others.
Now the question is: are any of these players and their motivations inherently better or worse than the others?
The answer: hell no, yet you seemingly lump them all as one, and insinuate that your "honorable" style is "better".
Yeah, but the other guy was comparing it to real life, with police and laws.
What exactly do the police do in real life? Oh yeah, that's right: in most cases, they show up after the crime has been committed and catch the bad guy.
Clans would be defensively patrolling there territory anyway; the patrols can double as law enforcement (if they so choose).
Obviously, safety could not be guaranteed, but police in real life can't do that either. In both cases, they'd be first and foremost a deterrent, and punishment after the fact.
Enjoyed your comments Cortanya.
You really got my blood boiling to play Darfall now!
1) Yes there isnt ..but in RL ..its highly unlikely that you meet such a person ever. In a game there much more of thoose its just a game why not just kill player xy cause its fun type players...In a game theres no law made by ppls wich affects everything there might be some that try to make a law but it doesnt affect a entire server ever. Nor is it sure that it even affects the territory your clan tries to protect.(now if darkfall had an option for a clan to claim a place and force it to be pve only and ppls wouldn even be able to attack others in that territory that would be a great thing but i highly doubt something like that exists or it wouldn be a pvp game anymore after all yea right) Like it does in RL to the Country ur living in your able to kill somone but ultimately your sooner or later going to be sued for it.. Well its a complicated matter lets just say i dislike ppls with no sense of justice in a game and you cant do anything against thoose because its a game ..they can switch accounts change names and youl never know who he is now. They can endlessly harm you but you cant harm them in a way to make them angry like your surely are after being ganked.
2) I dont think loosing gear has to be the end of the world but its a very good method to vary from other players. Since most games dont have much other choices to vary ..after a while there 100 or more ppls who are all the same skill wise ..since who prevents player 2 to learn the same magic ice rain slitter gust spell from that npc then you did ? and if theres no gear to make you different ,like having more hitpoints or having more armor better resists more strength something your style fits ..it just seems a bit boring to me ..after all i never saw a game yet with more then a few ways to skill a character best.
3) i didn play eve for 758 hours wonder where thats stated .. i did once a trial on it for about 1 hour but i rather like fantasy and having a character to move around not a ship.
4) look answer 2.
5) Your prolly right i doubt they listen to anyone since wich game did so far. they surely would have to change how the loot is dropped in a no can loose gear world like make it very rare ..and very hard to create gear in case it drops like candy in pvp version.They would have to insert intelligent AI npcs .. for a pve server (oh wait they say they have that) and something to do for ppls as the progress like targets to defeat raids and so on ..no can do that ...so were all about killing each other i guess but it will hold my interest for a week or two im sure :
after that its all about waitng for the next mmorpg coming 
@ cortanya, the last guy who gets pleasure off of other peoples suffering, I can safely place as inferior and unwanted in a game.
Its one thing to have this mindset in gta but in an mmo where that 1 guy's pleasure leads to 20 others' displeasure is something not wanted in an mmo. However there's no way to bar him from coming, and instead of stopping his means to create chaos (which would destroy the freedom of the other pvp type people you mentioned, and this is exactly what carebear games do), you can make it easier for other people to escape his clutches. DF does this through real stealth, a gigantic gameworld, and the ability for the victim to fight back.
When I'm energetic I'm:
the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
When I'm at default I'm:
WHITE/BLUE
Lol according to this I'm bipolar :O
This will not be uo2 your in for a surprise OP you have obvious not follow Darkfall alot.
And carebears hate free for all pvp and specially with full loot they wont play Darkfall or quit after a day:P.
But maybe you mean people who love free for all pvp but wanne play mostly pve or craft stuff, these are not carebears there just not full time pvpers and yes there is plenty of room for more then only pvp.
Defenition of carebears seems different meaning among many, go first read up some info on whats carebear before you make a topic with false statement about carebears.
Btw only haters vaporshouters and noobs newbees think its gankfest and trash talk and full of griefers anyone who have followed and got enough info about Darkfall know that will not be the case here.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
Erm whats to stop someone from just making a crafter that stays in the city or guild city?
Whats to stop people from hiring 'mercenary' players to act as body guards and escort them if they don't want to be hassled with PvP themselves?
Whats to stop a guild having its PvPers guarding the entrance to a dungeon, whilst the PVErs loot away at the npcs?
Think about how EVE works, where most lowsec miners have bodyguard buddies to protect them.
- Syn
Erm whats to stop someone from just making a crafter that stays in the city or guild city?
Whats to stop people from hiring 'mercenary' players to act as body guards and escort them if they don't want to be hassled with PvP themselves?
Whats to stop a guild having its PvPers guarding the entrance to a dungeon, whilst the PVErs loot away at the npcs?
Think about how EVE works, where most lowsec miners have bodyguard buddies to protect them.
The Pve had better have MASSIVE loot to pay for 2-3 boddy guards...
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
well i think by "body gaurd buddies" he means actual buddies/guildies, not payed mercs/bodygaurds.
When I'm energetic I'm:
the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
When I'm at default I'm:
WHITE/BLUE
Lol according to this I'm bipolar :O
One thing you fail to realise is that it isn't 1999 anymore. Whos to say that in 2009 a community will form itselfe the same way it did in the late nineties? The Internet/computers and gaming in general have spread like crazy and I think there are more kids and idiots online then ever befor. Not that I'm saying anything against ffa pvp (I'l definately give DF a shot if it comes out) but I'm confident that you will have more immaturity and trashtalk then wow or any other game.
Hell go look at the DF forums and you can see a bunch of grown up men acting like elitist twelve year olds...
Erm whats to stop someone from just making a crafter that stays in the city or guild city?
Whats to stop people from hiring 'mercenary' players to act as body guards and escort them if they don't want to be hassled with PvP themselves?
Whats to stop a guild having its PvPers guarding the entrance to a dungeon, whilst the PVErs loot away at the npcs?
Think about how EVE works, where most lowsec miners have bodyguard buddies to protect them.
The Pve had better have MASSIVE loot to pay for 2-3 boddy guards...
Who do you think runs the majority of the Ecomony in EVE? the majority of hardcore PvPers don't as they are pvping.
As long as PVErs play smart and either sell resources or craft or farm valuable weapons/armor there will always be a demand for them! We'll need crafters else most of us will be struggling to find decent weapons to hit each other with!
I can guarantee that guilds that are looking for both PvPers and PVErs will be the most successful as they will be self sufficient rather than relying on other players loot
There is scope for unguilded and guilded PVErs alike - all we need to be is 1) accepting of them and 2) they need to play smart
- Syn
Hope its not the case with the game's community come lauch, but I do agree with you on the forum - its a complete state.
- Syn
ok obviosily youce never been teamed up with one.
ill show you from experince " Hey i called dipps on that "Memory loop" you asshole ive been waiting for that for a long time , give it to me.
" no, you snooze you loose"
" Your mums a vagina face, go suck your mums pussy, you bicth,"
If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be someone to ride you - Bruce lee
Life Is not about how hard you can hit, It's about hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.- Rocky
That sums it up in a nutshell why I have my doubts for DFO. Back in the early days of online gaming it was computer geeks that knew where to go to get their hands on their favorite games. You didn't have shelves dedicated to games in every retail store and D2D. The crowd has changed and I think with today's crowd, alternative rule set servers are a must for ALL games otherwise you are just begging to be a small subscriber/population, niche game.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Notice that in darkfall that you can kill everyone at anytime. Then notice how everyone seems to agree that nowadays the general population of mmo players are idiots. Anyone else here connect the dots? I honestly think In the early years of UO the pking is what brought the community together. It was a progression back then, u were farmed as a newbie, u started to learn how to fight so you helped hunt pks, and then u became a pk. It wasnt for everyone, but it wasnt meant for anyone to "win". It seems nowadays all the mmos are basically a first person shooter with questing. I mean why quest six months to have a new shinny gun of pwnage for counterstrike?? Uo was ruined by not having any risk/reward anymore. It became uo:gangwars. Alot of ppl that are looking at darkfall are old uo players that are looking for that heart pumping moments that used to happen on a daily basis. If I wanted a game I could pause Id be on my xbox not in a mmo. Ive wasted alot of money holding on to the hope they would fix uo to be fun again and trying other games but heres to hoping darkfall delivers on the fun that we once had.
i never did see this special community that UO supposedly had....I played for about an hour and after getting killed within seconds every time I took a step outside Brittain I deleted the game.......Yeah I could have probably hunted around for other unfortunates like myself but in general the idiots ruin FFA PVP games.......
ok obviosily youce never been teamed up with one.
ill show you from experince " Hey i called dipps on that "Memory loop" you asshole ive been waiting for that for a long time , give it to me.
" no, you snooze you loose"
" Your mums a vagina face, go suck your mums pussy, you bicth,"
Incorrect.. I have been teamed with many and I just leave.. not that hard
if u want to be uber in a game in less then an hour heres a vid for u
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC0JGEAGMmA
just from reading the first post...aren't gankers and carebears really the same thing. carebears supposedly want it easy, minimal risk...and gankers only hit easy targets that present minimal risk?
umm.. that's two different things u just stated
Gankers are ppl who use numbers over skill....
Carebears are ppl who cry to the devs to make them uber and use the nerf stick on everyone else.
I see them both as people that the game on easy mode with no risk...they are trying to achieve that goal in different ways, the goal is the same.
Now this is the same thing...Carebears use their numbers to make the devs do stuff instead of skill.