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I returned to Pen and Paper (and maybe you should, too ^^)
Elikal
Member UncommonPosts: 7,912
I have made it a habit to solve unfinished business when the year ends, and this is one loose end.
Everything began 25 years ago when I was a kid of 12 years and I was invited to my first Pen and Paper group, The Dark Eye (a German Pen & Paper game "Das Schwarze Auge", same who make "Drakensang" atm.) Since then I was hooked. It was around the same time I started with my Commodore C64 my gaming career.
Ever since I heard about MMOs, around the time when UO and EQ were new, I circled around them. But whenever I tried them out or heard ppl talk, I wanted to run away as fast as possible. The idea of being PKed at every corner for no reason, the endless downtimes and the total anti-heroic proportions totally drove me away. Being a baker in Trinsic? Why would I be an all average guy AGAIN? But the desire to bring the two spheres together remained: I wanted to see computer games which bring my Pen & Paper experiences online. To this very day I must say, no MMORPG has succeeded to do so. But for over five years I went through various MMOs. I was in SWG and EQ2 almost 4 years each, mostly because of the once good community, not so much for the grandeur of the games themselves. Though taking away the grindasm of the first gen MMOs really helped me a lot to enter the MMO scene.
If you dont know The Dark Eye, which the majority of you wont, I guess, let me say this: it differs fundamentally from Dungeons and Dragons in one aspect: combat plays a significantly smaller role. There are entire adventures without any combat, or totally combat-free solutions. Maybe its something typical European or German, I cant say. But I know I always loved it. Nothing seemed more hilarious or ridiculous to me, than do "number-quests": kill X amount of Z. Grinding. In The Dark Eye I have played hours of a campaign and maybe we had one or two combat encounters. To give you a proportion, in The Dark Eye health and mana regen only overnight when you camp, and there are practically no potions, so all combat is how much health and mana you have on you. There is no room for more combat.
Ok, I am not that strict with combat, a little grind would be ok. But after a longer break not playing Pen and Paper, I now have a new Dark Eye group, a really good one, and god, I know now what I missed. And what MMOs lack. Sorely. I could live well with the fact that online groups are not as real ones. But the massive dullness, the mindlessness, the boredom and simplicity of MMORPGs... its something you only really see when you play Pen and Paper (again). Its as I look back to my MMO days, and shake my head over my own folly, wondering how long I was so easily satisfied. How long THAT rubbish of the MMOs was good enough.
Its sad, because I sincerely feel MMOs are WAY behind the possibilities, even with the fact that many more people share the same world. I just dont blieve, that THESE MMOs we have are the best of all possibilities. In fact I believe most MMO devs are extremely lazy, rigid in thinking, convenient in design and used to the way everyone treads. Its so sad to see. I have read so many good ideas from people here on this forum, it makes me wonder why in comparision MMOs are still so very sterile. Often, one or two ascpects are really good, not doubt, but almost at the price of the rest being mediocre at best.
I will refrain from such dramatic gestures as saying "I am done with MMOs". I still hope to live in the day, when they become good, when they really unfold their potential. At this day, MMORPGs are still in their experimental phase, in their infancy, which lasts unfortunatly long, however. I will keep some distance for the time being. Its a matter of reduced hope, you may say. I expect less now, and instead return mostly to pen and paper games now. If you never played a pen and paper game, do yourself a favor and start it. Make it your New Year good wish of things to do, and let your eyes be opened for what is possible. 
Merry Christmas to you, my friends.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Comments
MMOs are made like fast food. It tastes great, but people can't live on burger and fries alone.
The rigidness is partly the mindset of programming, too. Like scientists programmers are more into keeping to what they were taught (or learned from experience), not so much as innovating. This is why they prefer to copy things from each other, than to brainstorm a new way of doing something. It hurts game development, as it takes 5+ years before something truly different hits the market, and one that can grab the attention of the ever increasing ADD/ADHD population.
Maybe one day they'll break the mold and give players something different than a burger and fries game. But I'm not holding my breath for another 5+ years -- when there's more solitare game players online than MMOs, especially not holding my breath.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
I would like to return to Pen and Paper RPGS. But I want to do it in an online enviornment. I think online is the future for these games. I want to be able to set up some sort of chat room and communicate via chat or VOIP, invite players, and have all the online tools needed to play, i.e. random number generators, customizable character sheets, customizable tables and charts, customizable maps, customizable DM tools, and I would also like to see rules customization so you can run 'homebrew' games. I want these tool to be easily accessable to everyone. Online play to me would just have so many benefits. No spending money on gas or trying to coordinate 5 people to meet all at the same location, you can just do it online from anywhere.
Never Winter nights 2 has this type of aspect... im thinking about picking it up myself.
So does Dungeons and Dragons Online
MMOs are made like fast food. It tastes great, but people can't live on burger and fries alone.
The rigidness is partly the mindset of programming, too. Like scientists programmers are more into keeping to what they were taught (or learned from experience), not so much as innovating. This is why they prefer to copy things from each other, than to brainstorm a new way of doing something. It hurts game development, as it takes 5+ years before something truly different hits the market, and one that can grab the attention of the ever increasing ADD/ADHD population.
Maybe one day they'll break the mold and give players something different than a burger and fries game. But I'm not holding my breath for another 5+ years -- when there's more solitare game players online than MMOs, especially not holding my breath.
Agreed
I have never left PnP RPGs (running a Pathfinder campaign right now), and I have to say MMORPGs don't even compare. In fact I only started EQ because I couldnt find a group where I lived in '99...
Until they start focusing on player created content, MMORPGs will always lag behind for me. Right now Darkfall is promising the closest PnP experience, but even thats very limited tbh.
Oh well
While I can understand the convenience of playing online Milky, i couldnt disagree with you more. One of the things I've always enjoyed about D&D is the social nature to it, and I really think you lose a lot of that online. Gathering a bunch of friends to play made the game more meaningful, as opposed to playing with strangers on an MMO.
Elikal I have been on almost exactly the same journey as you. But I never gave up tabletop roleplaying. I thought MMORPG’s would be tabletop online, how naive I was. It was this desire to see the two hobbies I had of gaming and role playing becoming one that kept me in blindness to the truth for so many years.
MMO’s do not and may never be able give you the flexibility, depth and tailored role playing that table top does. I had a role playing friend who also started playing MMO’s when I did. But he never expected them to be more than what they are, solo RpG’s online. To him my disappointment over the years has been a source of bemusement. It is only one to two years ago that I realised as you now do that it’s a hopeless cause. I am and will continue to play MMO’s but I have given up trying to foster a role playing community, calling for more RP tools in the games I play etc. I just play them now for what they are not what I dreamed they could be all those years ago.
As to the mentioned MMO’s only Neverwinter Nights did a good job, but its lack of success shows how obsessed the gaming community is with graphics over content.
My Roleplaying recommendations:
White Wolf mainstream titles
Call of Cthulhu
I've never left PnP gaming which is probably why I have such a distaste for all the themepark games being made today. I'm accustomed to making my own way in the world as opposed to being led from one quest hub to the next, one "mob level appropriate" field to the next. You still have to be wary of PnP companies though, as well. Wizards of the Coast as an example. With their 4th edition rules they redesigned DnD essentially to make it easy to translate the rules system into another one of these Themepark MMOs.
If you are an older gamer (30+) and want challenging gameplay, be it MMOs or PnP, you have to look back past 2003. There are some companies who have held true to going into great detail in world building, such as with the Shadowrun license which hasn't really been watered down, but for the most part the word "accessible" has creeped into the corporate lexicon and game design lingo. That word is the death of world building and the catalyst for easy-mode creations. at least, that's what has been proven thus far.
As for the DF,MO, Earthrise and FE's out there, I can't count them yet as they promise alot but until they are launched and those promises are a reality, it's just words, no substance.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Many of the worlds are well done but far too much emphasis on task driven content. There is no creative thinking at all in some aspects, depsite the innovations.
I wonder how much of it is due to the fact that perhaps most of these younger minds never played pen and paper games and have no concept of what is missing.
Its time for an open source mmorpg with an easy API so the players can fashion their own worlds.
MMOs are made like fast food. It tastes great, but people can't live on burger and fries alone.
The rigidness is partly the mindset of programming, too. Like scientists programmers are more into keeping to what they were taught (or learned from experience), not so much as innovating. This is why they prefer to copy things from each other, than to brainstorm a new way of doing something. It hurts game development, as it takes 5+ years before something truly different hits the market, and one that can grab the attention of the ever increasing ADD/ADHD population.
Maybe one day they'll break the mold and give players something different than a burger and fries game. But I'm not holding my breath for another 5+ years -- when there's more solitare game players online than MMOs, especially not holding my breath.
What is it with you people and slamming programmers? Let me help you out a bit.
1) If I never see another role-player (whether MMO or PNP) stealing a name from manga or anime, it'll be too soon. How is that not copying things? Everyone wants to be Ryu or Goku or some other character I've never even heard of. A lot of gamers simply haven't got the imagination of a small damp potato, and that population exceeds the programming population by several orders of magnitude. Methinks the pot calleth the kettle black.
2) Programmers don't originate games anymore. Game designers originate games, and then try to sell them to investors. Investors are notoriously conservative with their money, and don't want to assume a lot of risk. Investors will invariably fund those game projects which look like games that are already successful in the marketplace, and not fund those that aren't. New tech and new ideas mean risk. Investors are risk-averse, and in today's economy, they're not going to be any less tight with the purse strings.
3) Cloned games are easier if only because once you have a game engine, everything else is just art and sound. Reusing existing tech to build a new--if admittedly niche--game is a much smaller investment than starting from scratch, and a smaller investment means smaller risk. See #2.
4) Carmack and Romero aren't down in the basement coding anymore, folks. That model hasn't been viable since about 1995. Games are a business now, and just like with the movies, you'll see a lot of stuff that looks like a lot of other stuff. Sequels are inevitable. Intellectual properties from other genres--whether that be comic books, novels, movies, or television shows--will be used before original concepts because of extant recognition in the marketplace. Someone will fund an MMO based on Katamari Damacy (no matter how silly that idea sounds) before they'll fund the next leap into the future of MMOs.
5) Like it or not, there are some ideas for MMOs that simply don't translate to programming very well. Either the client will be too large or run slowly, or the database needs on the server side will be too great, or the UI requirements exceed the capabilities of mouse and keyboard. Perhaps the level of graphical detail is too much for anything but top-of-the-line video cards that almost no one can afford. (Real-time deformable terrain is one of those things that's very, very hard to do in a shared environment when the server population is greater than a certain, very small, number.) Perhaps the amount of data that needs to flow between the servers and clients just can't be managed without a T3 connection or three, and the cost of that would exceed what the market will pay as a monthly fee. There are a lot of factors involved here, some technical and some financial, and glib assertions that "it's the programmers" are simply too naive to be taken seriously.
How do I know this? Well, for one thing, I'm a programmer, and I've written games and dealt with publishers. For another thing, I know people that are in the MMO-programming business. As a third thing, I've studied this business in detail for a long, long, time--maybe longer than some of the posters here have been alive. Grandpa knows what he's talking about, kids. (I don't write games anymore, in the interests of full disclosure. I'm a Sr. Consultant for a multi-national, multi-billion-dollar corporation at the moment. There's just as much money in it, and the hours are better.)
(Open-source MMO engine? You have no idea what you're asking for. Writing a MUD is difficult for one person. Writing an MMORPG these days takes a team, unless you happen to be a top-notch C programmer, a SQL guru, an audio engineer, and a graphical artist all rolled into one human being. I'm only three of those myself.)
[Can't wait to read the replies to this'n.]
Arguing with me will not make you right.
MMOs are made like fast food. It tastes great, but people can't live on burger and fries alone.
The rigidness is partly the mindset of programming, too. Like scientists programmers are more into keeping to what they were taught (or learned from experience), not so much as innovating. This is why they prefer to copy things from each other, than to brainstorm a new way of doing something. It hurts game development, as it takes 5+ years before something truly different hits the market, and one that can grab the attention of the ever increasing ADD/ADHD population.
Maybe one day they'll break the mold and give players something different than a burger and fries game. But I'm not holding my breath for another 5+ years -- when there's more solitare game players online than MMOs, especially not holding my breath.
What is it with you people and slamming programmers? Let me help you out a bit.
1) If I never see another role-player (whether MMO or PNP) stealing a name from manga or anime, it'll be too soon. How is that not copying things? Everyone wants to be Ryu or Goku or some other character I've never even heard of. A lot of gamers simply haven't got the imagination of a small damp potato, and that population exceeds the programming population by several orders of magnitude. Methinks the pot calleth the kettle black.
2) Programmers don't originate games anymore. Game designers originate games, and then try to sell them to investors. Investors are notoriously conservative with their money, and don't want to assume a lot of risk. Investors will invariably fund those game projects which look like games that are already successful in the marketplace, and not fund those that aren't. New tech and new ideas mean risk. Investors are risk-averse, and in today's economy, they're not going to be any less tight with the purse strings.
3) Cloned games are easier if only because once you have a game engine, everything else is just art and sound. Reusing existing tech to build a new--if admittedly niche--game is a much smaller investment than starting from scratch, and a smaller investment means smaller risk. See #2.
4) Carmack and Romero aren't down in the basement coding anymore, folks. That model hasn't been viable since about 1995. Games are a business now, and just like with the movies, you'll see a lot of stuff that looks like a lot of other stuff. Sequels are inevitable. Intellectual properties from other genres--whether that be comic books, novels, movies, or television shows--will be used before original concepts because of extant recognition in the marketplace. Someone will fund an MMO based on Katamari Damacy (no matter how silly that idea sounds) before they'll fund the next leap into the future of MMOs.
5) Like it or not, there are some ideas for MMOs that simply don't translate to programming very well. Either the client will be too large or run slowly, or the database needs on the server side will be too great, or the UI requirements exceed the capabilities of mouse and keyboard. Perhaps the level of graphical detail is too much for anything but top-of-the-line video cards that almost no one can afford. (Real-time deformable terrain is one of those things that's very, very hard to do in a shared environment when the server population is greater than a certain, very small, number.) Perhaps the amount of data that needs to flow between the servers and clients just can't be managed without a T3 connection or three, and the cost of that would exceed what the market will pay as a monthly fee. There are a lot of factors involved here, some technical and some financial, and glib assertions that "it's the programmers" are simply too naive to be taken seriously.
How do I know this? Well, for one thing, I'm a programmer, and I've written games and dealt with publishers. For another thing, I know people that are in the MMO-programming business. As a third thing, I've studied this business in detail for a long, long, time--maybe longer than some of the posters here have been alive. Grandpa knows what he's talking about, kids. (I don't write games anymore, in the interests of full disclosure. I'm a Sr. Consultant for a multi-national, multi-billion-dollar corporation at the moment. There's just as much money in it, and the hours are better.)
(Open-source MMO engine? You have no idea what you're asking for. Writing a MUD is difficult for one person. Writing an MMORPG these days takes a team, unless you happen to be a top-notch C programmer, a SQL guru, an audio engineer, and a graphical artist all rolled into one human being. I'm only three of those myself.)
[Can't wait to read the replies to this'n.]
I've been a programmer and DBA for a while now. I wouldn't take the shots at programmers/developers personally. Most people have no idea what goes into programming even simplest application, let alone a MMORPG. As you said people don't understand that the programmers don't make decisions on overall game design. All we get to decide is what design patterns, algorithms and data structures to use.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
theres plenty of tools to be used ALREADY out there.
The developers, thinkers and programmers arent using them in a creative way.
What makes the world sandbox or themepark is in the approach to interacting with the world. Too much hand holding and task driven content results in a linear world regardless of the size.
We dont need a scripted reason for being there dungeon in each zone. What we need is a place that invites us to go further....whether we're in a group or not. I had no "reason" to go to the Estate of unrest....I went there because you could solo the area and it was fun. Now a content zone is always group only which actaully takes away from grouping because no one sets out there without a group so people lfg cant find one on the spot.
Its all too cookie cutter now. The things taken as gospel standard for mmo creation respulses many. Throw out the book and take any one of these faboulsly graphically cool worlds and sandbox it by taking away any indication of 'what to do'. then watch people fall into virtual personas called tailors, carpenters swordsman, mages , whatever. It happened one and a half times it was called UO and EQ.
All very true. I never left pnp myself but my group doesn't get together as near as I would like. When we do it is such a blast nothing better then friends and a good dnd session.
I think and people will probably flame me for this MMOs went off the track with EQ. EQ a great game for it's time but I feel it borrowed from single player console rpg with it's holy trinity grouping design and class design to much. PnP DnD classes were very diverse. They could do a lot of different stuff just in different ways. Now everyone has their set role and going outside the box is frowned upon.
(Open-source MMO engine? You have no idea what you're asking for. Writing a MUD is difficult for one person. Writing an MMORPG these days takes a team, unless you happen to be a top-notch C programmer, a SQL guru, an audio engineer, and a graphical artist all rolled into one human being. I'm only three of those myself.)
[Can't wait to read the replies to this'n.]
Open source does not imply a single person. You would need to have a team to develop an MMO engine. What needs to be developed are MMO tools that are generic across worlds. A lot of the pain seen in many MMO releases is due to each company recreating the wheel. Creating an MMO "operating system" that would seperate world specific content from the underlying system infrastructure would reduce the number of specialties that a team creating a new MMO would require.
Thats pretty fucking sad dude... I mean more ghey than Larp.
(Open-source MMO engine? You have no idea what you're asking for. Writing a MUD is difficult for one person. Writing an MMORPG these days takes a team, unless you happen to be a top-notch C programmer, a SQL guru, an audio engineer, and a graphical artist all rolled into one human being. I'm only three of those myself.)
[Can't wait to read the replies to this'n.]
Open source does not imply a single person. You would need to have a team to develop an MMO engine. What needs to be developed are MMO tools that are generic across worlds. A lot of the pain seen in many MMO releases is due to each company recreating the wheel. Creating an MMO "operating system" that would seperate world specific content from the underlying system infrastructure would reduce the number of specialties that a team creating a new MMO would require.
I second this, but if you could make an MMO program/tool ; you'd be smarter to sell it or work for a company and get paid to implement it; i would. As the Joker says "If your good at something, never do it for free.".
MMOs are made like fast food. It tastes great, but people can't live on burger and fries alone.
The rigidness is partly the mindset of programming, too. Like scientists programmers are more into keeping to what they were taught (or learned from experience), not so much as innovating. This is why they prefer to copy things from each other, than to brainstorm a new way of doing something. It hurts game development, as it takes 5+ years before something truly different hits the market, and one that can grab the attention of the ever increasing ADD/ADHD population.
Maybe one day they'll break the mold and give players something different than a burger and fries game. But I'm not holding my breath for another 5+ years -- when there's more solitare game players online than MMOs, especially not holding my breath.
What is it with you people and slamming programmers? Let me help you out a bit.
1) If I never see another role-player (whether MMO or PNP) stealing a name from manga or anime, it'll be too soon. How is that not copying things? Everyone wants to be Ryu or Goku or some other character I've never even heard of. A lot of gamers simply haven't got the imagination of a small damp potato, and that population exceeds the programming population by several orders of magnitude. Methinks the pot calleth the kettle black.
2) Programmers don't originate games anymore. Game designers originate games, and then try to sell them to investors. Investors are notoriously conservative with their money, and don't want to assume a lot of risk. Investors will invariably fund those game projects which look like games that are already successful in the marketplace, and not fund those that aren't. New tech and new ideas mean risk. Investors are risk-averse, and in today's economy, they're not going to be any less tight with the purse strings.
3) Cloned games are easier if only because once you have a game engine, everything else is just art and sound. Reusing existing tech to build a new--if admittedly niche--game is a much smaller investment than starting from scratch, and a smaller investment means smaller risk. See #2.
4) Carmack and Romero aren't down in the basement coding anymore, folks. That model hasn't been viable since about 1995. Games are a business now, and just like with the movies, you'll see a lot of stuff that looks like a lot of other stuff. Sequels are inevitable. Intellectual properties from other genres--whether that be comic books, novels, movies, or television shows--will be used before original concepts because of extant recognition in the marketplace. Someone will fund an MMO based on Katamari Damacy (no matter how silly that idea sounds) before they'll fund the next leap into the future of MMOs.
5) Like it or not, there are some ideas for MMOs that simply don't translate to programming very well. Either the client will be too large or run slowly, or the database needs on the server side will be too great, or the UI requirements exceed the capabilities of mouse and keyboard. Perhaps the level of graphical detail is too much for anything but top-of-the-line video cards that almost no one can afford. (Real-time deformable terrain is one of those things that's very, very hard to do in a shared environment when the server population is greater than a certain, very small, number.) Perhaps the amount of data that needs to flow between the servers and clients just can't be managed without a T3 connection or three, and the cost of that would exceed what the market will pay as a monthly fee. There are a lot of factors involved here, some technical and some financial, and glib assertions that "it's the programmers" are simply too naive to be taken seriously.
How do I know this? Well, for one thing, I'm a programmer, and I've written games and dealt with publishers. For another thing, I know people that are in the MMO-programming business. As a third thing, I've studied this business in detail for a long, long, time--maybe longer than some of the posters here have been alive. Grandpa knows what he's talking about, kids. (I don't write games anymore, in the interests of full disclosure. I'm a Sr. Consultant for a multi-national, multi-billion-dollar corporation at the moment. There's just as much money in it, and the hours are better.)
(Open-source MMO engine? You have no idea what you're asking for. Writing a MUD is difficult for one person. Writing an MMORPG these days takes a team, unless you happen to be a top-notch C programmer, a SQL guru, an audio engineer, and a graphical artist all rolled into one human being. I'm only three of those myself.)
[Can't wait to read the replies to this'n.]
I am not a programmer, and seriously, I dont really care who exactly the decision making persons are, or what their profession is called, programmer, designer, developer. Its to THEM who decide. I call them developers, usually. They may or may not be programmers, but thats not really important.
Important is that the decision making people and those who take care of the detail are obviously narrow minded. And with all respect, but being a consultant or programmer makes you no wiser in games, like a cook isnt qualified more to say how well a meal tasted. And I just find the MMO genre bland. Sure, it gave me some highlights, but when I REALLY look at the great moments I had in MMOs, like in SWG, my most favoured one - it wasnt so much the game, it was US, the community who made it good.
To your points:
1) I am not exactly sure WHAT your point here is? Is it, that you think most customers are so dumb, they deserve the trash? Dunno where thats heading. Sure, everyone wants to be hero, but we dont need to be UBER hero. There can be only one Frodo, yes, but LOTRO has started a good way to make people a "minor hero", tho the game has other weaknesses and story telling is a good start and one can only hope SWTOR takes it further. There certainly ARE ways to make you more than "the guy who killed another 200 Gnolls in Antonica".
2) Partially see above. Its a trend I see everywhere. Where once technological creativity reigned, now there is conservatism. I just had a talk with a friend a few days ago. When I was a teen around 1980, I imagined by 2010 the world would be technologically like a SciFi. People would not drive cars driven by combustion... they would drive anti-grav vehicles. We would have a space station (a REAL one), a first city on the moon, we would have holodecks and beaming and whatnot. People would live in large towers of glass and metal and not in normal houses anymore. And now look what a dissapointment the future is. If you see how fast society changed in the era 1870-1920, how the inventions of car, electricity, phone, subways and whatnot changed the everyday world in a short time... and then see how unchanging the world is now. Sure, monitors grew slim, phones are mobile, yay. What a change. So yes, there is a conservatism, but that has little to do with any current crisis but with the loss of daring the loss of people who have visions and go for it.
3 + 4) Agreed, nothing to say, but again: people play way too much on the safe side these days. With such a mentality America would still be Terra Incognita and we would live in caves still, because its "safer not to go out and look". Its defending the status quo as the best of all possibilities, and I find that both sad and hilarious to assume.
5) I cant judge what programming allows and what not. But I am damn sure its more a matter of not thinking outside the box. Thats just a way too typical human trait to NOT be the explanation here by and large. Thats guesswork, yeah, but something that applies too often, alas.
If my feeling about this matter can be explained in a scene, its this one which really inspired me. Its from the movie "1492" with Gerard Depardieu as Columbus. When Columbus, after being in the New World a long time, returns to Spain, some arrogant Aristocrate wonders, why he wants to go back to that uncivilized place, why not stay in Spain, where there are cities and where there is culture, why live there in the mud and nothing? And he points to the city around them and replies "all this - I have made it"! It means, there is civilization because people dared to go, dared to walk untrodden pathways. The convenient are just the parasites of those who dared, whether it is the discovery of worlds, the making of new nations or the inventions which drive us. Its not those convenient with that which already exists, which prefer the easy, well walked pathways which brought us that far. If for those bean counters in business we would still play PONG and PACMAN.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
MMORPGs have never been about RPGing. In their infancy developers believed gamers would role play and work together to solve problems. Instead players focused on killing each other, cheating, stealing, grinding, seeking bigger and bigger loot so they can appear better than the fellow gamer.
Developers didn't make the MMORPG what it is today, GAMERS DID!
I remember back in UO, trying to role play and being ganked. I remember back in EQ, not grouping with good Paladin character because I was an evil never, I got laughed at. I remember finding creative solutions to problems in an MMO and later being nerfed because the players complained to the developers I was able to do something they were not.
I still play MMOs although I've taken long breaks on occassion. Currently playing LOTRO because I do miss the interaction with other people and I find the mindless farming to be relaxing. As I've gotten older, I've found the endless killing of virtual people in an FPS to get old. Although I used to be one of the best in the business. I find MMOs to be relaxing, mindless, and entertaining. Not because of the role playing, but because they are low skill, and interactive.
I too miss the pen-paper style of gaming, and the tools are available right now for players to do such an activity. Its just finding a group of quality people and truthfully doing such a game online will never be as much fun as getting together in person.
As technology advances, gamers may get the open ended MMO experience, but only if we as gamers mature to the point we are not only concerned with who can kill the other the fastest or who can get the next +1 sword of no life the fastest.
So look in the mirror first before condemning the industry, they give us what we ask for.
I guess I envy people who can return or feel the desire to return.
When I first heard about D&D it was in some school paper... I was obviously fairly young at the time. I lived in a very very rural area in Vermont.. max population of the town was 3,000 and I didn't live close to town. There was 3 other houses on the road I grew up on..
So to play D&D and/or later PnP products.. I would have to well to be blunt.. play with myself. Now I admit that when boredom sets in .. I did try to be a DM and 2 or 3 players. However, it really wasn't that exciting.
This was what inspired me to teach myself programming when *I* got my first computer in 1982 (commodore 64). So I turned some D&D "modules" into text based adventures.. and *bright light* the holy grail was the gold box games.
Anyway back to the OP... I bought Fallout 3 which for me personally (not saying anyone else liked it) is the only thing keeping me happy game wise.
How my gaming started is probably mostly what lead me to be a solo player. Tho in early MMO's I actually had a lot of friends and guilds etc... As MMO's went mainstream for whatever reason I no longer wanted to make friends or join guilds.
I live near Portland, OR now.. so I'm sure there is a PnP element in the area.
I've decided to return to single player games for now personally.
I do as I said at the start envy people (to a degree) that have the ability to do PnP.. as its a social thing. which has far fewer downsides than most. At least in my opinion.
Oh and yes I was serious.. before I could get my C64.. I did actually play DM and a few players.. so I could do something with the rule books / modules I had purchased. Kinda funny and sad I guess.
Been playin shadowrun with a few pals. talk about total freedom in a game world...love the look on the GM's face when he has to deal with the wild ideas we come up with to solve the current problem.
Drago
Well Eikal you are comparing apples and oranges.
The fundamental difference between P&P and MMOs is that P&P is run / powered on the most powerful "hardware" there is...your imagination. Nothing is impossible or can't be done, any approach is only limited by what you can dream up.
In an MMO you are trapped within the confines of strict predefined programming rules.
MMOs simply can not replicate P&P. Sure, they can give you a character sheet with stats and some gear but you play in a force pre-defined way that can not be altered. Look at AoC or many others, you play the exact same path no matter what you do or how hard you try not too. That is not possible in P&P. (well it can be if you are kinda weird I guess)
A lot of people here (especially the game drifters) are constantly trying to fit square pegs in round holes. MMO's are very very base and poor RPG's all they really provide is the opportunity to play in a virtual environment with many players at once with a persistant character. The complexity of that environment was lost about 4 years ago. You gotta except MMO's for what they are, graphical RPG simulators but not the real thing. Sure they are "fun" but you can never truly express your imagination in them.
NWN2 was a bad copy of the first game however, if you don't mind older games play the first instead, Bioware or Obsidian is no hard choice even if the graphic is kinda old.
Still I would like to play pen and paper games more often, I do it a few times a year now but every old player and his grandmother are rather playing Wow and a game needs fun players or it will be boring...
There are many things MMOs can learn from pen and paper games, MMOs are still where pen and paper games were in the 70s, I am still upset that Mythic didn't use more from Games workshops "Warhammer fantasy roleplaying game" in WAR, the level system totally kills the Warhammer feeling.
But it will be intresting to see how CCP/Whitewolf will solve "World of darkness online", maybe it is the online RPG game I been waiting for.
While it is true that you can't get all the choices in a computer game that you can get in a pen and paper game I still think you are wrong.
In most PnP paper games character development is the most important thing but almost all MMOs are based on D&D where the characters are almost clones of eachother. Mos MMOs focus on loot and while loot do matter in pen and paper games the character is still more important.
I also feel that the plot of all MMOs I played (a lot) are way to predictable. In a pen and paper game you plan things but you still often get surprised about the turning in the plot. And the npcs are almost never any intresting in a MMO, single player games have done that great in many cases but in MMOs they are usually the same boring stereotypes we seen before a 1000 times.
The problem seems like devs are lazy and just copy the earlier games instead of looking at the games that inspired the first games. I hope that Biowares TOR at least will change that a bit.
Never Winter nights 2 has this type of aspect... im thinking about picking it up myself.
So does Dungeons and Dragons Online
From reading the D+D online forum here, the settings isn't like the old PnP D+D, it's not even in the Forgotten Realms.
But hirelings are a plus, as finally players don't have to group with folks with weak bladders; cellphone calls; raid calls; and other distractions (only if the hirelings had more realistic AI, it will sure beat many a PuG!!!).
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Well Eikal you are comparing apples and oranges.
The fundamental difference between P&P and MMOs is that P&P is run / powered on the most powerful "hardware" there is...your imagination. Nothing is impossible or can't be done, any approach is only limited by what you can dream up.
In an MMO you are trapped within the confines of strict predefined programming rules.
MMOs simply can not replicate P&P. Sure, they can give you a character sheet with stats and some gear but you play in a force pre-defined way that can not be altered. Look at AoC or many others, you play the exact same path no matter what you do or how hard you try not too. That is not possible in P&P. (well it can be if you are kinda weird I guess)
A lot of people here (especially the game drifters) are constantly trying to fit square pegs in round holes. MMO's are very very base and poor RPG's all they really provide is the opportunity to play in a virtual environment with many players at once with a persistant character. The complexity of that environment was lost about 4 years ago. You gotta except MMO's for what they are, graphical RPG simulators but not the real thing. Sure they are "fun" but you can never truly express your imagination in them.
I cant say what disappointed others in MMOs, but for me it was not the imagination, but the details, the rules, and mindframes to design games, and I just dont accept that the current design of MMOs is all that is possible, for that would be the consclusion of what you say, that the way MMOs are now is all there can ever be. I just think they are lightyears behind their possiblities, even granted that Pen and Paper games are based on endless imagination, they are still confined within rules. There are classes, skills and many things existing in MMORPGs just as well. Not even in a Pen and Paper game you have ALL possibilities. You have some. There is only a given set of locations and the ruleset limits your options.
I dont expect MMOs to be totaly open and free, but lets be honest here: most of the time playing a MMO you will follow variations of "kill x amount of z", and I just deny to assume thats the best and only way an Online Game can ever be. But it would demand innovative thinking and daring, and such qualities are rare in the gaming industry.
One example: in SWG one seperate sphere of gaming was Entertainers. It had zero to do with killing, and I know many people who just danced and made music. Just that. The idea was so creative and cool, but for a mysterious reason the concept was never copied. There would be so many other things a MMO could make people do besides kill statistics, they just dont do it.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
This is verey true. A lot of the things we ask for probably won't be realistic or even possible for a good while. However, I still think some one could make a great MMO just by back tracking a little and doing whats already been done.
Give us a big, immersive, challenging world with plenty of toys and some unpredictable elements. Take the focus away from all of this cheesy "content" and let us decide how we want to play the game. MMOs will probably never re-create the PnP experience, but they could get a hell of a lot closer by giving the players MORE freedom, instead of slowly taking it away.