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lol Is MT really that bad?
Tiller
Member LegendaryPosts: 11,488
After a bit of soul searching I support it, but only part of the concept.
If one can buy "noob swoop" for $.99 outside of the game instead of walking up to an NPC Swoop dealer in game and paying 100 credits for it, how will this affect the game? I'm not sure there would even be a problem if the items that you could buy were similar to looted items but slightly weaker. As for the crafter economy (I assume there will be one) nothing players can make should be purchasable outside the game, if it is possible then the player made items should be better, and/or more customizable. If anyone can sell high level items outside the game it should be the players. But that can open up the potential for some major problems.
I'm still on the fence about selling in-game currency. I've never purchased credits for any MMO thru a gold dealer, though I've known lots of players on my SWG server who have. Whether it be to run or start their cities, buy bases, or build up their characters for PvP or set up their large scale crafting business. They talked about it on our server forums like it was just an everyday thing so I assumed even back in 04 people had been doing it for a while, and few I knew had problems with it. The problems most people had were the actual farmers themselves. If that step was removed it could only make the game a bit better. Plus it’s a way to cut out the middle man and kill the farming business by devaluing the currency to a point that’s it’s pointless to farm.
Most of the people who bought gold ect were the more serous players who just wanted an edge in what the did. Honestly it never effected me, and because of the players who were willing to shell out their own money to get themselves set up, it allowed others to enjoy the things they made sooner than later. Most of large scale crafting operations in SWG on my server were run by people who dumped shit loads of money into the game, whether it be credits or accounts. They obviously were more serous about making a name for themselves than most people. Kudos to them for investing so much to make the game fun for themselves as well as the rest of us.
I will not play a game were I need to by a stupid potion to level up at a decent rate, or buff up enough to compete against the average NPC on the scene. But it sounds like BioWare is doing something different and tying your level to your story arc. I remember reading something about them not wanting to do the whole experience point thing like most games out there have. I'm not sure how it's all gonna work, sounds like there really won't be any power leveling/grinding in the game if they do it like that.
Which goes back the whole "SWG felt like a job more than a game" It was fun, but there were times it was just plain annoying and stupid with the amount of preparations you had to make before you went to go do something. Now they dumbed it down to much. I think less of us are as hardcore as we think. We all work, have lives outside the MMO we play, there are a select few who have money and time on their hands to devote it all to an MMO, but that's not most of us. A great game will cater to both play styles, without adversely affecting the other I think.
The MT thing isn't that bad, just as long as it is something you don't need for playing the game, and items are not as good, or better than ingame items. I think that's what they tried to do with EQ2, the thing is some of the items they are selling are really good items that are in the game, or not at all. That's kind of a kick to the groin for people who spent the time getting theirs ingame. But then again it's one way to keep a high cost game viable these days in this economy unfortunately. So anyways my point is, there is a right and a wrong way to do MT, lets hope it's done right for TOR.
Comments
I honestly agree with the OP here. I have only played a couple of MT games, but I definitely think it can be done in a way that is not detrimental. The question is: how are they going to implement it?
Until Bioware releases some actual details about how their MT will work, I don't think any of us should make any judgements about it. Only time will tell...
The benefit I see for myself is that I may actually get this game since I won't have to pay a subscription fee. I'm definitely not planning on leaving WAR and DAoC for this, and extra subscriptions can really add up.
That said, I'm still very much not in favor of RMT.
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"Capitalism is currently working as intended."
I don't think it will be free, I think you will have to pay, but if you want certain items you can iether buy them ingame, with credits you earned, or buy them outside the game. I also suspect there will be other extras tied to the game, like guild web pages with their own forums ect you will have to pay seperate for.
It's bad because the only way this system can be feasible and a make profit for the company is if the items are so desirable that they are practically required to play the game properly. If people don't spend enough money on microtransactions then it's not worth having them and the only reason that a lot of people would buy them is if playing the game without them is unthinkable. EA will want to make at least, or probably more, money than they would get if the game was subscription based.
So you are in a situation where you are paying for non existant items or whatever that have no production cost for the seller and no legitmate real world value, it's like the emporor's new clothes. You also do not know how much the game will cost you to play each month and anything you have spent money on is subject to change at the whim of company running the game.
Some of this could be used to argue against subscription fees as well but at least that is a flat rate and you have access to everything available everyone else for the same fee.
I suppose it comes down to if you are willing to spend real money on non existant things, personally I would not and have a very low opinion of anyone who does.
more people dont have a problem with it then the people who do so either way there whining is meaningless
I will never play a game where i have to pay a monthly fee and then pay for items and XP aswell to be competitive. If you are such a lazy bunch. Then you shouldnt be playing a MMORPG. Go play F2P's that is suited for MT's or play Counter Strike or Battle front or something.
Hauken Stormchaser
I want pre-CU back
Station.com : We got your game
Yeah?, Well i want it back!!!
That's some of the factors that MT games will get you.
You won't need the stuff at first. You can play for a while and move along and accrue stuff just fine. However, you will get to a point where the buffs / enhancements / gear from MT will become increasingly tempting.
Case in point is XPs. An MT game will let you zip along just fine for a while in level / XP progression. You won't need that XP buff at all. However, with a bit more time and levels, you will notice the XP requirements for each level become insanely larger. You can grind / quest / whatever it out as normal for "Free" but it will be gutwrenchingly long. But wait! In the Cash Shop you can buy an XP buff (say +25% for a few hours) for a couple $$$!
"No," you say. "I can level without that buff and have no intention on forking over money."
Well, you level up again, but it took insanely long for a grind. That Cash Shop XP buff looks great, so you pay for it.
Cool.
Next couple game sessions, you buy more of this buff.
Oh, but wait! There's also another buff to increase your HPs by x TWO! That sounds great, you can plow through the quests / zones more easily.
Fork over more money.
Well, you're leveling up some more and want to participate in higher end PvP. But guess what? You're getting your a** handed to you buy folks that spent outrageous amounts of money on Cash Shop Buffs, Equipment, etc. So if you intend to PvP, you better get with the program!
"Free To Play, Pay To Win!"
Otherwise, your cheapskate a** will get nowhere... or proceed at a significant disadvantage and at a frustratingly, much, much slower pace.
So go on ahead guys. You think you're not going to pay much in an MT game, keep thinking that when you play more of them. Keep thinking that when review your bank / credit card statements every month, especially for a game you figured was "Free" or wouldn't require you to pay for much when comapred to a $15 subscription game.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
There are only two ways i can see this affecting players
PVp
"the only reason you beat me is because u have item X and i didnt want to spend money on the item"
Pve
" LFM raiding <insert place> you must have item Y(as it makes raiding said place easier)
The pvp one is much less of a concern
I dunno about the pve situation seems like it would limit the grouping
any thoughts?
If they make it where you must have items from the mall to be successful then I highly doubt people will be happy with that. Though on the flipside to that, if I spend $15 or less a month (granted there is no subscription) then I have no problems with it because it will be almost equivalent to a subscription model fee.
I can't think of ANY possible situations where MT is acceptable, and I refuse to play ANY game with it.
It's just a fluff item that you can get in game? Then the player should earn it in game, not buy it outside of the game.
It's a fluff item that you can't get in game? EVERYTHING should be available through achievements in game. I don't play these games to buy stuff outside of it, I play it to achieve things.
I don't care what way, shape, or form it is, if it involved real life money in exchange for any in game effect, I will not play it.
It is possibly one of the biggest rip offs I have ever seen. Creating these items takes little time or effort, and then the companies sell them to you for cash, which makes them a profit with no investment. The saddest thing is they are taking advantage of the "Gimme Now!" crowd that are blind to this blatent scam.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
That's some of the factors that MT games will get you.
You won't need the stuff at first. You can play for a while and move along and accrue stuff just fine. However, you will get to a point where the buffs / enhancements / gear from MT will become increasingly tempting.
Case in point is XPs. An MT game will let you zip along just fine for a while in level / XP progression. You won't need that XP buff at all. However, with a bit more time and levels, you will notice the XP requirements for each level become insanely larger. You can grind / quest / whatever it out as normal for "Free" but it will be gutwrenchingly long. But wait! In the Cash Shop you can buy an XP buff (say +25% for a few hours) for a couple $$$!
"No," you say. "I can level without that buff and have no intention on forking over money."
Well, you level up again, but it took insanely long for a grind. That Cash Shop XP buff looks great, so you pay for it.
Cool.
Next couple game sessions, you buy more of this buff.
Oh, but wait! There's also another buff to increase your HPs by x TWO! That sounds great, you can plow through the quests / zones more easily.
Fork over more money.
Well, you're leveling up some more and want to participate in higher end PvP. But guess what? You're getting your a** handed to you buy folks that spent outrageous amounts of money on Cash Shop Buffs, Equipment, etc. So if you intend to PvP, you better get with the program!
"Free To Play, Pay To Win!"
Otherwise, your cheapskate a** will get nowhere... or proceed at a significant disadvantage and at a frustratingly, much, much slower pace.
So go on ahead guys. You think you're not going to pay much in an MT game, keep thinking that when you play more of them. Keep thinking that when review your bank / credit card statements every month, especially for a game you figured was "Free" or wouldn't require you to pay for much when comapred to a $15 subscription game.
THIS is exactly why I am against MTs. There really is no way around this folks. THIS will happen. It's the only way they can make a profit on this model. Also, it allows them room to breathe for introducing new items.
In a Subscription model, it puts the pressure on the devs to continuously make new items and content. In an MT model, that pressure is laxed so that they don't have to do anything they don't want to, until they feel like it. What sucks about this, is this is what they do anyway - even under the Subscription model.
For instance, I would be happy with this compromise.
A $10 monthly fee for normal game affair. This basically acts as a normal Subscription plan for any normal MMO, and all things that are normally guaranteed with that - free updates, bug fixes, balance issues, modest new content. Truely, I don't mind paying for this stuff under a normal Subscription plan. But why five dollars less?
It's $5 less because there is also a MT model involved. The items invovled must never be consumable items, they must never decay, they must not be bound on equip, and I must be able to give these items to whomever I want. These items, I have complete ownership over. The developer may never take it away without a full refund or at the very least, credit for the amount purchased. If the integrity or value of the item is ever compromised because of developer fault, for instance bug fixes or rebalancing or even remodelling, I must in turn recieve a full refund or credit if I so choose to return the item, in which case I lose the item and recieve my money in full.
The developer may never offer a series of items that will be rendered obsolete until a specific time has lapsed. For instance, the developer must be bound by contract to not exploit this market by offering a series of armors on the first week of the month, and then offering a completely new set that renders the older set obsolete, until one full month's time has lapsed.
The developer may never offer in-game money. The items offered may never render crafted items of the same kind, obsolete. The developer may opt to offer scematics of the item for in game crafters if they so choose, but they may never offer a scematic of an item that may be outright purchased under the MT service, and visa versa.
In other words, if they want to use MT models for their games... then they better be VERY clear on their legalities, and they better offer the customer a service that holds THEM liable to crookery.
I will never support a game that requires me to spend real money on a consumable, like an XP potion, or an HP potion. Anyone that does is just an idiot - no offense, but you're just asking to be robbed.
I don't think it will be free, I think you will have to pay, but if you want certain items you can iether buy them ingame, with credits you earned, or buy them outside the game. I also suspect there will be other extras tied to the game, like guild web pages with their own forums ect you will have to pay seperate for.
I must have misunderstood the thing I read a while ago. Oh well. Now they just seem greedy.
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"Capitalism is currently working as intended."
If you can get all the MT items in game by doing quests or whatever then I have no problem with people buying them. Though if they're doing an achievement thing I want the achievement saying I got it by playing the game and the people who bought it outside of the game to have nothing.
It's when they start adding items that give players an advantage like EQ2 with buying XP bonus or when they add in items you can't get in the game like SWG loot cards is when I get pised off. I also get pissed off when they add a character customization feature for $15 when it should be in the game for free. I also wish'd that you'd get like one server transfer every 3 months or so and if you go over that limit then you have to pay but I really think atleast once every 3 motnhs should be covered byt your subscription fee.
I think players should be rewarded in an MMO based on, depending on what the MMO is built around, skill and/or time spent playing, not on how much one player pays the company. One player should not be given an advantage over another simply because he forked over more coin. It encourages the company to treat it's customers unequally, which, in my opinion, is just stupid. For an MMO company, the consumers should give an equal amount and therefore be given an equal amount; it simply cannot function properly any other way, otherwise the gameworld will have a monopoly where the powerful become powerful and the weak stay that way. It's simply unfair.
I agree that when you play mmos you should be rewarded based on your efforts but the bigger picture is that developers are in the business of making money. So wether they use and RMT model or subscription model, as long as players are having fun and spending money that is what matters the most to them.
I still think there is a way that it can work; people really just need to get over it. Blizzard plans on adding micro transactions to their game, they are slowly ramping up to it now by adding various paid services ect, SOE has added it. As games become more and more expensive to build and maintain, this is what will become more common place.
Sorry to say guys, but your $14.99 per month for an MMO isn’t enough even with a 1 million subscribers. It takes a few years of operation before they break even with a large scale mmo and it isn’t a loss operating anymore. This why MMOs are failing so fast anyways, they don’t get the expected subscription revenue within the timeframe they predicted and they just end up closing it down.
I heard that Bioware broke the 100 mill mark building this game already. EA pitched in a bit of cash to keep this project going. I’m not sure what the break down is but even shelling out $15 x 1 million subs won’t cover everything. We don’t know how much money goes to their various licensing fees, server operating costs, design and build teams, travel expenses, marketing and advertising, publishing fees, store displays, taxes, it even goes as far as how much it costs to keep their lights on and flush their toilets.
As much as I dislike the things Smedley has done with SOE, back in 2006 he predicted the whole industry would have to go to RMT within a few years to remain viable.
I do agree however that the systems that work in Asia, will not work here. That being free to play, with item malls that require you to purchase leveling and skill enhancing items to actually enjoy the game. That will not work here. But, what will work here are offerings of what I call “shinnies and trinkets”. People like em, and regardless of what we think, people pay for them. Who here use’s iTunes? Maybe not a lot in this thread, but obviously someone uses it to rent, buy movies, purchase games, music, apps ect. I just recently started myself because of convenience. .99 for a song is pocket change, and if you can control your spending, it's not that bad.
This whole micro transactions thing will take some time to catch on no doubt, but once you get used to it in almost every game, it will become almost unnoticeable. Yeah it’s a little different in a game, you may be worried it will break immersion, but not everyone role plays and I imagine there will be many of those “hey, where did you get that?” “BioWare shop” “oh”
Congress has already discussed taxing virtual economies, RMT just opens that door even wider.
Virtual commodities like in Second Life yes, some people actually make money selling things in SL. I played for a short time and people were selling an entire sim for anywhere from $80, $400. Not to mention the items they make in SL that sell. Say you buy a house from someone that costs 5240 Lindens, that's $20 USD. People spend a lot of money in SL, and can make a lot as well.
I knew a few graphic designers who used SL as their platform for financial gain, why shouldn’t they be taxed? People will also buy land, divide it up and rent it out for as much as 2000L (about $10) per month. I'm not sure how virtual assets would be handled, but I doubt they will tax those unless it's profitable to do so. But most likely your $2.99 dinner table for your house is not going to be taxed unless you can sell it through their site, which I doubt. Most of those items will most likely be binded (if they have RMT)
I doubt Bioware has broken $100M on SWtoR so far. That's an absolutely ridiculous budget for a game that's probably a good year out and has loads of development to go, but I'd believe a credible source.
You're also forgetting box sales. $15 x 1M won't cover everything, but $50-$60 x 1M (even if they only take 20% of the total cost) gives a tremendous boost. Plus, if they are spending some $100M on development, a very large chunk of that is probably investor funded - meaning it's not their cash.
Plus, the biggest problem facing them is not funding or even long-term upkeep - it's the game itself. You're not going to beat WoW with a doppleganger. If most of the elements feel like WoW, there's no reason for the customer base to play your game instead of WoW (and is one of the more poignant reasons I've not played an MMO in a while). If they can make their game different enough from WoW, then they should recoup money just fine.
Regardless, I'm fairly set against MTs. I wouldn't mind paying $20/month for a sub (Europeans can pay upwards of $30 - I don't mind closing the gap), but paying real money for fake items is just not my style. At least I know my sub goes towards new content, maintenance, wages, etc. MTs have a far more immediate and visceral reward; whatever you bought with your cash. Yes, some portion of the $3 goes towards all the other stuff, but the illusion is different. One rewards you subtly, the other gives you an item and calls it "even."
If a MT model is "necessary" (which I highly doubt) for turning a profit, at least WoW has some of the better ideas. Their TCG does have loot cards, but they're mostly vanity items with a plethora of vanity items obtainable in-game. I heard they're opening up paid transfers and such, which is a good idea. I've not heard of them requiring real money for gear, titles, or any type of game-reward.
I think I've ranted on long enough, and hopefully SWtoR will be MT-free. Bioware is an excellent game company, definitely one of my top 3 (the other two being VALVe and Blizzard North), and I believe they might have a shot at producing a decent WoW-rival as long as they don't try to imitate it wholesale.
Yes, I am an English Major.
Its when they design content or game mechanics with Microtransactions in mind that I start having problems with it. Like they set the xp rate at a certain level to sell more xp potions, ect..
They have to increase profits every year...eventually there is only one way to do that. Im not saying it won't work or still be a fun game. Just saying it might be totally gay.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
I doubt Bioware has broken $100M on SWtoR so far. That's an absolutely ridiculous budget for a game that's probably a good year out and has loads of development to go, but I'd believe a credible source.
You're also forgetting box sales. $15 x 1M won't cover everything, but $50-$60 x 1M (even if they only take 20% of the total cost) gives a tremendous boost. Plus, if they are spending some $100M on development, a very large chunk of that is probably investor funded - meaning it's not their cash.
Plus, the biggest problem facing them is not funding or even long-term upkeep - it's the game itself. You're not going to beat WoW with a doppleganger. If most of the elements feel like WoW, there's no reason for the customer base to play your game instead of WoW (and is one of the more poignant reasons I've not played an MMO in a while). If they can make their game different enough from WoW, then they should recoup money just fine.
Regardless, I'm fairly set against MTs. I wouldn't mind paying $20/month for a sub (Europeans can pay upwards of $30 - I don't mind closing the gap), but paying real money for fake items is just not my style. At least I know my sub goes towards new content, maintenance, wages, etc. MTs have a far more immediate and visceral reward; whatever you bought with your cash. Yes, some portion of the $3 goes towards all the other stuff, but the illusion is different. One rewards you subtly, the other gives you an item and calls it "even."
If a MT model is "necessary" (which I highly doubt) for turning a profit, at least WoW has some of the better ideas. Their TCG does have loot cards, but they're mostly vanity items with a plethora of vanity items obtainable in-game. I heard they're opening up paid transfers and such, which is a good idea. I've not heard of them requiring real money for gear, titles, or any type of game-reward.
I think I've ranted on long enough, and hopefully SWtoR will be MT-free. Bioware is an excellent game company, definitely one of my top 3 (the other two being VALVe and Blizzard North), and I believe they might have a shot at producing a decent WoW-rival as long as they don't try to imitate it wholesale.
Well it all comes down to keeping a team on board after launch. Most studios cut team size once the game launches. The SWG team was cut from 78 to 20 and those developers went to work on EQ2 after SWG was finished. SOE has hired a larger team for continuous development of EQ2-1. Additional free content for the players isn't free for the developer. Before it was always a calculated risk doing it, now it's not even worth taking the chance.
In SWG they have cut costs with their free content additions by reusing most of the assets that are in the .tre files already. No idea how many writers they have at this point but I would assume it to be 1-2. In EQ2-1 they are able to develop new assets for their free content additions. This whole story arc thing BioWare is trying do is going to force them to keep an army of writers on board to pump out this stuff on a regular basis so people don't get bored after they plow thru it. Not to mention the coders, artists ect. This is unlike any other MMO from a development standpoint.
As for the 100mil thing, it’s just an unsubstantiated rumor, though at this point based on the design scope of what they have talked about, it would not surprise me if it’s reaching that point. Last I heard I think was 50mil, that was 2 years ago, before EA bought them out.
I’m not here to argue the “whether this is good or bad” fact. Just more “does it really hurt anything?” I myself most likely will not be buying any items or currency outside the game unless I see something I would really like to have, which I doubt. As long as I can play the game without having to buy any extras, I’m good and I can get over it.
I agree that when you play mmos you should be rewarded based on your efforts but the bigger picture is that developers are in the business of making money. So wether they use and RMT model or subscription model, as long as players are having fun and spending money that is what matters the most to them.
That's the thing that always confuses me with these companies; an MMO industry, like any industry, is ultimately controlled by it's consumers in a captialist economy. We've seen how much damage MMO companies have done to themselves when showing outright selfishness to it's playerbase; take AoC or SWG for example. You are right, a company is fueled by income, not some magical will or odd passion to make the best MMO ever. They are out there for profit, which isn't a bad thing. But when they want to think in the big picture, they have to think about every property of their product, including how simply things like the business model of their MMO effects every aspect of their game. Everything has a positive and negative spin to it, but what's most important is how this spin reacts to the consumer. Here's good ol' SOAP Company... they are in the business of producing soap (go figure). Let's say SOAP is one of the best-selling companies on the market, because they use aloe vera as one of their ingredients. Aloe vera makes their customers very happy (and oh so silky smooth). Then SOAP decides to switch aloe vera with witch hazel; it's a lesser ingredient, but a cheaper one and a much easier material to produce, so in turn that should mean the SOAP company should be gaining more profit, right? Well, it turns out witch hazel is destroying their customer's oh so precious silky smoothness, making them flaky and dehydrated. Their customers switch to the Suave company, as they continue to use aloe vera AND a hint of green leaf. GREEN LEAF!!1!
TL;DR: For everyone's sake, these companies should be concerning themselves more with the consumers than what they have been lately; it's a win-win situation for everyone.
lol Is MT really that bad?
Only if its from SOE.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
A well balance post, OP. I am no fan of MT, but I dont see it as catastrophe either. I just wish games are based on monthly fees and EVERYTHING can be acquired via ingame mechanics. I would accept MT as alternative way to get some stuff. Like a speeder, which you may either get via a quest or dollars. Some people just dont have the time to power grind for expensive houses and mounts or other cosmetic stuff, and enabling ppl to also have such "pointless" stuff by real money, would not do harm. I feel strongly its something many would want. Its like you reach a certain level, you want to reward yourself with a new, fancy mount or a house or a fancy cloak or what.
Good thinking, OP.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
What I don't get is all this talk from Smedley "new players migth not know how to get the items from a crafter or a quest so we offer them the option to buy it" and it's like well let them fucking play the game and they'll find out...... If you show people where the major quest areas are then maybe they'd know but the quest system in SWG is such a mess that it's all thrown all over the place and the only way to find them is by looking on the forums. If a player doesn't know how to find a crafter then show them in the tutorial or let them play the game and make friends. Why do we have to dumb everything down for people and ruin the game mechanics like in SWG?
Smedley knows aswel that new players don't buy items for a game they don't even know if they like and by the time they do then they know all these things. RMT is just another form to milk veterans of the game because they can't get the items anyother way and have to fork over cash for them.
This is what pisses me off and why I'll never be spending money on another SOE product because I'm sick of the way they treat their community and have been doing it ever since their EQ days and whats shameful is people still bow down and let SOE take them up the arse.