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FPS having a negative influence on RPG
dave6660
Member UncommonPosts: 2,699
I'm not a fan of the FPS genre. I've played a few in the past that I beat in a week then collected dust for years. It seems to me that RPG’s are adopting more and more elements from them. Some of the ideas people hate, others people seem to be begging for but in the end I think we’re headed for MMO Halo.
The focus is now completely on combat. All other elements of traditional PnP RPG’s have been watered down or left out. Some games try to make crafting interesting, but again, the only reason people craft is to support combat.
The new ADHD crowd wants to play for a week and be able to get to max level, get all their abilities and get all the best gear.
A few threads have talked about hiding the numbers behind your characters actions. I’m firmly against this one. I’ve always enjoyed figuring out the best combination of skills, gear, enhancements, buffs, etc to get me the result I want. Don't the numbers add another facet to the game?
Since death penalties have become insignificant at best, people treat their characters like cannon fodder. People blindly run into combat, get killed, respawn, rinse and repeat. Some games are even keeping "frag" counts.
PvP is becoming instanced Unreal Tournament style mini games.
The newest fad in upcoming games is to get rid of classes and levels. I think we’re throwing out the baby with the bath water here. Some games do use the model poorly it doesn’t mean we should get rid of the system entirely. If they would just be a little more creative in how you advance when you gain a level then the problem of level difference goes away.
Twitch mechanics now being added to RPG’s. There are ways requiring skill in combat without resorting to this. The bunny hopping was the most annoying thing I've ever seen.
People want battles to be faster in speed and duration. How long before we have head shots?
Maybe I’m old fashion but do people like this direction for a RPG's? Is this really still a RPG or just a shooter with a few more options?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Comments
It's sad, but expect it only to get worse.
If you're not using feint, you're not doing enough damage.
Author of http://themmoexperience.blogspot.com and writer for http://www.negativegamer.com
i'm not a big fan of this fps style games either and I hope mmorpgs don't continue down the path to nothing more than big death matches
I have no problem with having two genres. MMORPGs and MMOFPS.
If people want an FPS , only bigger with more players online at a time, and devs want to make it for them, go for it.
Just don't call it an MMORPG, because it won't be, since the RPG elements will have been stripped from the game.
Here's my test. What determines whether I can kill you in PvP, if PvP is in the game? My l33t keyboard and mouse skills, or my characters skills or levels?
If 51% or more is my keyboard and mouse skills it's an FPS, no matter what else you do. If 51% or more is my character skills or character levels, it's an RPG.
For example in Battlefield 2142 you can go up in ranks, and get new and better gear, but 51% or more of what determines if you kill someone is still your l33t keyboard and mouse skills.
If 3K players were on the same server for Battlefield 2142, it would still be an FPS, just bigger with more players.
I agree with you, OP.
It all started when the FPS people that WoW attracted to MMOs started complaining about how MMOs required "no skillz" (meaning, clearly, twitch-based combat), were not balanced (because of classes and levels and gear) and suxx0red because of this. It all went downhill after that. Every MMO developer, from Blizzard to Mythic to Funcom and beyond, are desperately trying to hook the large FPS marketbase into MMORPGs, and it's one of the factors contributing to the poisoning of the genre.
There are still MMORPGs being made, though. LOTRO is one. Vanguard was another. Both of these games have many, many flaws, but both are also unapologetically RPGs at their core.
let me give you ONE FPS players perspective on the whole situation with MMOs.
i know alot of people are gonna get angry at me and maybe even think i'm trolling because my ideas and opinions go so against the grain of the average gamer. everyone's opinions and tastes should be acknowledged, at least SOMEwhat understood, and definitely respected. if you're really serious in wanting to understand other, perhaps ALIEN opinions to your own, then read carefully with an open mind. i'm not trying to CHANGE your mind, or your tastes, just telling you how *I* see things.
i realize i don't represent your average FPS player at all, but i am very hardcore into old school fast action FPS games that are unhampered by virtually any kind of "realism". that in itself could be a whole seperate and lengthy thread, but i don't play games to imitate real life drudgery. i play games to get concentrated doses of my FAVORITE aspects of life. IRL, much of your time is spent on doing mindless repetitive tasks just to keep yourself and your environment alive and healthy. the time spent IRL making interesting choices, and getting feedback on those choices (seeing the cause to effect) is a small fraction of your overall day. and the feedback often isn't seen anytime soon. sometimes the feedback takes years.
i also am almost strictly a competitive multiplayer type. i rarely play single player games. they seem so lifeless to me. i want interact with and observe real people to make the gameworld seem more like an alternate reality/dimension. and i want to compete against other players, not against AI. and i want to do it ONLY on a level playing field. to me PVP in an RPG is totally pointless. its a competition of who has less of a life (and therefore a stronger character). so when i play MMORPGs i am forced to play against the environment, just so that i can level up enough to explore the whole world. if i could, i wouldn't do ANY combat in MMORPGs because i hate dice rolling combat. to me dice rolling should only be applied to things that are too hard to simulate. combat in a 3D space ISN'T.
i DON'T want to pretend i am another character. i have no need for that.
why do i play MMORPGs at all then? i like to EXPLORE a seamless immersive virtual world populated by intelligent beings. i would be happy if i could just fully explore the world with an invulnerable character that couldn't attack or be attacked by anything, and avoid combat altogether. any other multiplayer experience is not at all immersive with your 32 or whatever players being shuffled from one level/map to the next. even if those levels were designed to be spacially contiguous with each other (which usually they AREN'T) it doesn't really matter in multiplayer when you can't freely choose to go anywhere in that games world. MMORPGs are the closest things we have to the romantic, idealized visions of an immersive cyberspace. i NEVER play RPGs if i don't have to, and yet the current thinking in the MMO world is that the only reason people are subscribing is to have a "persistent character" to advance via lots of monotonous dice rolling busywork. that is very wrong. i hate most aspects of RPG mechanics (and "character progression") and yet i've played almost every 3D MMORPG in existence, starting with the first launch day of EverQuest 1. even RPG fans acknowledge that the bulk of their time feels like work. "the grind". i find it funny that they say that on one hand, and yet insist they love RPG mechanics, and that you can't have an MMO without them. you can't have an MMO without pointless busywork?. "the grind" is an INHERENT byproduct of RPG mechanics.
if i was gonna do like the OP & start a thread to vent my feelings about the current gaming world state i would have titled it something like
"RPGs ARE HAVING A NEGATIVE INFLUENCE ON FPS GAMES"
Counterstrike was the start of the downfall of FPS for old school fraggers of my type. soon after everthing is making convoluted attempts at "realism" (meanwhile they STILL are not at all realistic, just more slow paced, tedious, so in that crappy aspect they ARE more elike real life, heh), and adding grindy elements of character progression that......
* ......limit your access to the full range of content and abilities that the game has to offer, and slowly dole it out over time (makes more sense in an MMO where they make more money by SLOWLY letting your game get more interesting and dynamic (via all the further options that open up to you), however in an MMORPG, the class system still limits you to experiencing about 1/10 of what's availabe (if there are 10 classes)
* money systems where you have to play an x amount of time before you can get access to the better weapons, instead of just going and getting them if your skilled enough to succesfully do it. some even have experience points now and other "unlocking" systems, where they limit your access to things until you've been playing for awhile ("the grind" in a SOMEwhat more palatable format, at least your playing against intelligent beings so its not totally brainless grinding).
* they penailze people for running and gunning, encourage camping, encouraging people to just sit still and aim at a doorway and patiently wait for an opportunity to hit the fire button.
* cause more and more randomness (basically dice rolling) to your accuracy any time you make any attempts to defend yourself via moving/dodging. so now you can't concentrate on both dodging and attacking at the same time. i guess that's too hard for your average gamer. TFC wouldn't even give you the OPTION to move when you're sniping. hmmm MMORPGs don't generally let you move while casting/shooting.
* reduced abilities to jump with stamina systems, and penalizing your accuracy. punishing you for having more skill and movement dynamics in your playstyle.
Ok while I'm on a roll, i'm gonna keep talking about the things i hate about modern FPS games
****** THAT ARE CLEARLY *NOT* INFLUENCED BY MMORPGS ****
people who don't play FPS games might as well skip to the next post (and know that i'm not finished addressing this subject, and will post more later) unless you wanna read (at the bottom) about why bunnyhopping is great *IN FPS GAMES*.
*now almost all fps games give you an extremely limited amount of weapons you can carry. just limits the choices and dynamics of the game. all in the name of "realism".
* almost all weapons are basically the same bullet-based crap. just variations on velocity and caliber. limiting the dynamics of the gameplay. you don't have nearly all the strategies and choices you can have with fantasy and sci fi weapons where there's many more ways for the weapons and theirprojectiles to behave.
* you can't see bullet trails (again, unwanted realism) which encourages camping (slower paced gameplay).
* realoading of clips, and being incapacitated (offensively speaking) for a long period while you change clips. some people call that strategic or tactical, but there's nothing difficult about monitoring your HUD and having to manage your clips. its just a needless extra annoyance from something that doesn't need to be "realistic". btw, soldiers rarely have HUDs, and afaik, HUDs are not wirelessly linked to computerized guns that report the status of what's in your clip, or have any way to be aware of how much ammo you are carrying outside your clips. they don't bother to model you reaching for and grappling with your extra ammunition belts/containers either. there is CLEARLY a point where you need to draw the line in how much "realistic" annoyances you are going to model, and these "realistic" games go WAY over that line
* forced spectating, and countdown timers before you respawn
* military fetish that seems to have made it the mandatory theme of almost every new FPS for years now. everythings more drab and depressing looking with muted browns and greys dominating. almost all the environments are uninteresting things you've already seen on the news or in person plenty of times before
* there can be an uncanny valley with all this nonsense too, where the closer you get to realism the more ridiculous the things that AREN'T at all realistic seem.
all those things make me hate almost all modern FPS games. there's plenty of populated oldschool FPS servers out there with quick gratification (and if you REALLy think quick gratification in a GAME is a bad thing............let's say you may have problems with priorities in your life) and with WAY more dynamic and interesting options and strategies to their gameplay. via weapons and mechanics that aren't castrated by a misguided desire to make everyting "realistic".
************************* bunny hopping ****************************
it may not be realistic (and doesn't contribute anything positive to dice rolling RPG mechanics, just the same as moving your character left/right doesn't), but its both fun FOR that reason, AND ads much more to FPS gameplay in the fact that its possible to jump over many of the bullets that you otherwise would take. giving more chance for skilled players to stay alive longer and not get caught in a narrow space without having a way to avoid damage. that way skill > somewhat-random-situation-you-find-yourself-in. which also applies to having more weapon choices, and other mechanics too. also it requires more skill from your enemy to predict when you jump and requiring him to aim up and down more. some people have gotten skilled enough at that, where it actually makes it EASIER for them to hit you everytime you jump (they see the beginning of a predictable arc and aim ahead of you in that guaranteed short path/trajectory you've chosen). again, adding more dynamics to the gameplay. now you have to adapt to people who you realize are getting predictable shots on you everytime you jump.
i'm not really finished on the entire subjects of the thread, but this is long enough for one post 8) i'll make another later when i have time.
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Corpus Callosum
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@corpusc, I didn't wanna quote your reply because it was lengthy. I'm not a FPS hater, it's not my thing, but I have no problem with the people who enjoy it.
I too play online games because it's more fun to play with other people than to play alone. Maybe one day they'll make a true MMOFPS for the shooter crowd. The "grind" in RPG's you're refering to is really what you make it. If you just kill mobs watching your xp bar waiting for the number next to your level to change, then yes it's going to boring as hell.
As for PvP coming down to who has less of a life. Yes this is true in a lot of games, people with more time to devote to the game will have better characters. But why try to compete with them? I have a career, I'm married and have other obligations so I have limited play time. I know I'll never see the gear other people do, I know I won't hit max level as fast as they will and I know I won't be part of the "elite" guilds. And to all that I say, who cares. I play at my own pace and compete the best I can and have fun doing it.
I feel your pain that they're changing the FPS genre too to bring in players from other genres. I would never go to a FPS forum and complain that I want levels or character advancement because it just would not belong and I know it.
Lastly, I understand where bunny hopping originated but it still annoys me to no end. In every RPG PvP game I've played jumping served no purpose during combat. Maybe people have some strange neurological disorder that makes their thumbs hit the space bar uncontrollably.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
I think on the whole game developers make an earnest effort to balance the strategy and reflexes of a player.
I never considered WOW rogues reflective of having good Reflexes
WOW Rogue "twitch play" has more in common with an Everquest Bard doing songs
EQ2 fan sites
No, you need a lot of skill and map knowledge to win in a UT match online. That's completely not the case in MMO.
You can still dominate MMO PVP with gear and time spent farming better items.
In UT everyone is alike. Everyone is 100% equal before you start, you get no special buffs or guildies or raid gear to help you out, you will win or loose depending on how well you control your character and how well you know the map. Comparing the 2 is silly, they have nothing in common.
I actually want MMO to become more skill based and less about who can grind the most hours per week.
I say let devs be free to experiment with systems and let the marketplace determine what works.
QFE
QFE
What he said.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
No, you need a lot of skill and map knowledge to win in a UT match online. That's completely not the case in MMO.
You can still dominate MMO PVP with gear and time spent farming better items.
In UT everyone is alike. Everyone is 100% equal before you start, you get no special buffs or guildies or raid gear to help you out, you will win or loose depending on how well you control your character and how well you know the map. Comparing the 2 is silly, they have nothing in common.
I actually want MMO to become more skill based and less about who can grind the most hours per week.
Quoted for truth
people who aren't into FPS games are easily confused by game interfaces and marketing hype.
just cuz Guild Wars talked about having "deathmatch" style combat, it was NOTHING like an FPS game. totally bog standard dice rolling combat, restricted movement, no ability to manually dodge most attacks, aiming didn't matter. Same with Fury. Same with Tabula Rasa. they had some of the meaningless trappings, and scenarios/tournaments/whatever, but NONE of the real meat of an FPS. TR, gave a better illusion than the others (and i've seen tons of people claim its combat was revolutionary and different....WRONG), but it was all interface. your movements didn't really matter, and you didn't really have to aim any more than you do in a regular MMORPG, it was just that you did it with a crosshair versus a pointer, and it would automatically "click" on that target to select it when your crosshair touched it. you didn't even have to KEEP your aim on them as long as you didn't point at some other mob to change your target. it was all typical dice rolling behind the scenes, and no real FPS playerwas fooled into feeling like it mattered. it as simply just a less clumsy/clunky interface than your usual MMORPG.
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Corpus Callosum
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No, you need a lot of skill and map knowledge to win in a UT match online. That's completely not the case in MMO.
You can still dominate MMO PVP with gear and time spent farming better items.
In UT everyone is alike. Everyone is 100% equal before you start, you get no special buffs or guildies or raid gear to help you out, you will win or loose depending on how well you control your character and how well you know the map. Comparing the 2 is silly, they have nothing in common.
I actually want MMO to become more skill based and less about who can grind the most hours per week.
Quoted for truth
people who aren't into FPS games are easily confused by game interfaces and marketing hype.
just cuz Guild Wars talked about having "deathmatch" style combat, it was NOTHING like an FPS game. totally bog standard dice rolling combat, restricted movement, no ability to manually dodge most attacks, aiming didn't matter. Same with Fury. Same with Tabula Rasa. they had some of the meaningless trappings, and scenarios/tournaments/whatever, but NONE of the real meat of an FPS. TR, gave a better illusion than the others (and i've seen tons of people claim its combat was revolutionary and different....WRONG), but it was all interface. your movements didn't really matter, and you didn't really have to aim any more than you do in a regular MMORPG, it was just that you did it with a crosshair versus a pointer, and it would automatically "click" on that target to select it when your crosshair touched it. you didn't even have to KEEP your aim on them as long as you didn't point at some other mob to change your target. it was all typical dice rolling behind the scenes, and no real FPS playerwas fooled into feeling like it mattered. it as simply just a less clumsy/clunky interface than your usual MMORPG.
Actually, if you played TR you would know the combat was different. If you moved more than a little bit from the target you lost it, unlike something like WoW where you click a target and keep it until you click another or run way a way. Also, in TR, unlike many other games, it wasn't turn-based (even something like LOTRO with very short turns), it was entirely real time.
Every game, will always have numbers behind it. Even in something like Battlefield 2. There's still the numbers of how much damage each gun does to what part of the body. You'll never (NEVER) get away from numbers, that's the only way to make a computer game, with numbers. Now can you have a whole crapload of variables to attempt to hide the numbers? Sure. Are there still numbers? Of couse.
If you don't like realism, good for you. I'm not fully with you on that boat, I like games that have realism, adds some nice startegy. Although I'm also an advid UT ('99, 2004, and III).
Yes, more of the skill based things will work their way into MMORPGs. Why so? Because of gold sellers and the like. Now days, whomever throws out the most cash wins. The only way to combat this is taking some emphasis off gear and putting it on player skill.
As to the stamina meters in FPS games. It doesn't "Punish the players dynamic movement skills" it stops them mashing space so you can actually hit them. Is it good in fast paced FPS games like UT to not have a stamina bar? Yeah. Not in the more realistic shooters. Partly because it's another jab at realism, let me see you put on full body armor with an 8 pound rifle, pack of supplies, handgun and explosives and hop around... after you get shot in the leg. Tell me how it turns out ;D
And for the whole thing about having to work for gear. If you didn't have to rank up in BF2142 to unlock new guns, do you think half the players would be there? If you got rewards for playing better/longer on UTIII, don't you think that community would be a lot bigger? Look at Frontlines: Fuel of War, awesome game but no ranking system and only a hundred or so online players at a given moment. Why? The sense of progression and something to show for your invested time and skill hooks people. They want to one-up their friends and brag. That's why people play MMORPGs so long.
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Telthalion Rohircil - Guardian - Elemandir - Lord of The Rings Online
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== RIP == Torey - Commando - Orion - Tabula Rasa == RIP ==
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Jordaniel Torey - Navy Megathron, Active Armor Tank - Tranquility - EVE Online
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Torey Scott - Rifleman - Fallen Earth
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"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but I know World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
No, you need a lot of skill and map knowledge to win in a UT match online. That's completely not the case in MMO.
You can still dominate MMO PVP with gear and time spent farming better items.
In UT everyone is alike. Everyone is 100% equal before you start, you get no special buffs or guildies or raid gear to help you out, you will win or loose depending on how well you control your character and how well you know the map. Comparing the 2 is silly, they have nothing in common.
I actually want MMO to become more skill based and less about who can grind the most hours per week.
Map knowledge has been marginalized in today's MMORPG's, no argument there. I would like to see more skill involved in combat too but not in the form of mouse and keyboard skill.
In RPG's I don't want everyone be alike, what fun would that be? I don't even want every fight to be fair. It makes everyone think twice before picking a fight with a random stranger.
If you look at WoW battlegrounds or WAR scenarios they do have a lot in common with a UT deathmatch or capture the flag. They both start off with a fixed number of people on a each side. They both are isolated from the outside world so nobody else can interfere. They both have a main objective, which at completion resets the game with no influence on the outside world. Death is meaningless in both, you just repawn at some set spot in a few seconds and run back into action as if nothing happened. Granted combat mechanics is much different but that wasn't what I was referring to when I made the original post.
If people want a game that totally depends on your ability to control your character and where gear, class, level / skill points, skill selection, buffs, enhancements or guildies are all meaningless, then please play FPS's.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Its all about prefrence of the player... Alot of people do not have the time to play all the time and want the experience without the grind and waste of hours... I for prefer not to have classes, I do not like being held back from doing something, if I want to be the jack of all trades let me be it. Others like the "skill" invloved as to not geting owned because someone sat on their ass longer then you and the numbers say they win. Face of Mankind was a mmofps and really had not real "end game." It was fun and any player could basicly do whatever they wanted.
They have. It's called Planetside. Also I agree with this statement :
"I actually want MMO to become more skill based and less about who can grind the most hours per week."
Well.. this tendency may be true to some extent. But is it the influence of fps games, or was it always a part of rpg games?
Look Ultima Underworld was the first 3D game with first person view, it was released before wolfenstein3d the first fps game. There you got twitch combat, no classes and no levels, but skills and spells as in all Ultima games. Ok.. it also got a very intrigue atmosphere and storyline, and more or less all rpg elements you can wish. The lack of one is not the failure of the other.. both is possible, and there are a lot of players, which would like both.
But even in the time of Ultima Underworld exist to parts of rpg fans... the roundbased combat fans, and the twitch based combat fans... those are the differences, but both can be full out rpgs.
But at least one point is true without a doubt.. nowadays rpgs, and especially mmorpgs are extremely watered down without any great storyline, without any challenge, with just a few rpg elements.
I personally would much more blame Diablo, because everything left is just hunting and collecting items, levels, quests, story fragments and nothing else. Now we got just fast food rpgs like Diablo.. and the combat and/or viewmode has nothing to do with it.
That's funny because I see it the other way around, RPG no-talent trash infecting my FPS purist fantasy.
It's like FPS is going this way -->
and RPG is going that way <--
and in the middle is --> a big pile of steaming shit that doesnt play like anything <--
I wish developers would just stop it.
FPS combat is much better than RPG so it's the naturalevolution.........
People said adventure games died but no, they just got merged into other genres and for the better because clicking on the screen at everything was well boring.
Linking no classes and no levels to the problem of FPS vs. RPG combat is wrong. The two issues are completely separate.
If you look at the origins of MMOs which is PnP RPGs then you had no class, no level games for almost as long as the level/class games. Like Runequest and Traveller. In the 90s they surpased level/class based games in popularity until D&D3 but they are still popular GURPS 4th ed core rules was printed in over 1 million copies. And they were just as number crunching as D&D if not more.
Its the same with MMO games. Having no levels and classes and replacing them with individual skills and attributes you train up using your own personal path and template does not take away the number fun from you, quite the contrary, it brings the numbers into YOUR hand instead of the developers hands.
What you are talking about is Darkfall that use a semi FPS system (just like AoC) AND no levels and classes. Sounds like your beef is with their model, but there have been other games without levels and classes before (UO, Pre NGE SWG, Eve) and there will be others. If you like to tinker with your toon then you should embrace the non class/level games they give you the player some of the power of a developer and allow you to make your own decisions, effectively allowing you yourself to design your characters own class.
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
You are misplacing blame. These are two completely separate issues. You can have FPS combat in an MMO that has crafting and non-FPS elements. My ideal MMO would have that. Just because game developers are too retarded to realize this does not mean there is a cause-effect relationship here.
In my opinion, game developers decided combat is #1 and everything else can be thrown away a long time ago. From that eventually came to where they decided FPS combat was better than RPG combat. Then they forgot their roots and how character abilities and skills should also factor heavily into an MMORPG. Adding a level of player skills was great, but losing character skill was wrong.
And now we have the shallow poo games like Tabula Rasa. But FPS combat and halokitties aren't to blame. It's the poor vision of the developers and producers that have painted us into the corner.
I agree with 100% of what the OP has stated.You want to know why so many like or want more of the FPS facet?It is a simple answer ....ADVANTAGE.IN a Poperly setup FPS[NO POWERUPS]players use their wits/aim/movement to battle each other,depending on their setups the map and latency are the ONLY issues.
Now once you bring the RPG facet into the equation,players have the ability to PVP with nothing more than an UNFAIR advantage.It seems players really are WEAK and afraid of a fair challenge,they want to be able to get that piece of raid gear that makes them MUCH better than they really are or be able to merely spend TIME to equate success.Neither of the ideas would mean squat playing a game such as Unreal Tournament.
The proof is in the pudding,even in FPS games,players are quick to spawn kill[they dont want a challenge but to merely win at all cost].Players seek out servers where they can easily out ping their opposition,players want powerups so if all else fails,they can use the REDEEMER[zero skill].FPS suffered from an epidemic of AIMBOTS,it was a bunch of whiny kids that could not compete SKILL vs SKILL so they stooped to cheating tactics.
The mentality is there pasted on the bulletin boards EVERYWHERE,players funding RMT in RPG.s,players begging for aimbots or other fPS cheats,like wall hacks.It is quite obvious that there is a VERY high percentage out there that will ONLY stick around in a FPS environment if there is some way they can win without skills,such as gear advantages,time=reward.
You remove the gear and time=reward then the PVP will not be around,and of course the game would not be a rpg anymore just a FPS,so you can see there is no way to combine them.A game develop[er is MUCH better off designing games around TEAMWORK,comprehensive battle systems,that make you think and work as a team.FFXI came VERY close,it is too bad that instead of adding to their RENKAI system,players have chosen to dumb it down eliminating half of it's design and fun.
MMORPG's are 100% heading down the wrong path.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Bingo. Couldn't have said it better than the OP myself. It's painfully evident in more recent releases. Sadly, already there are only a handful of titles that really try to at least attempt to hold true to the genre. Yes, there are some things that are an improvement, but much of it is simply removing core elements of what makes an RPG and supplanting it with something else from a "more popular" genre. You can only cut so much before what people call an "RPG" is nothing at all like what an RPG is supposed to be, and is more like that lovely Shadowrun FPS that was released. And before you say "who are you to say what an RPG is or isn't", considering RPG is a definieing label, there would be little point to the label if it could change its meaning constantly. It's like deciding that the word "computer" should suddenly follow the descriptive defiinitoin of a baked ham.
edit: Wizardry's post is also quite spot on.
Bans a perma, but so are sigs in necro posts.
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