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Melee vs Ranged attacks in PvP.
What's your opinion on ranged attacks vs Melee in PvP combat.
The problem with playing a melee character, basically a sword swinger of some sort, is that you can be kited. That is, the ranged attacker, either arrows or spells, can attack you from a distance, run away so you can't hit them, attack again from a distance, run away, till you are dead.
I don't think there are roots in the game to prevent this?
Also, since it's not a class system, the ranged attacker is not balanced vs a melee in terms of squishyness. Often class based games balance this because although the ranged attacker can get some hits in before the melee character can close, the ranged attacker is squishy. That is, the ranged attacker has less hit points so the melee only needs to get in a few swings to kill them, making up for the lack of ranged attack.
But with a skill system, I would think that the ranged attacker and the melee attacker will have the same hit points, more or less.
That being the case shouldn't everyone play a ranged attack skilled character primarily?
Comments
Hmm.. well think of it this way..
Ranged characters don't get a shield (they'll ahve to switch as the target approaches), they'll have weaker armor (because wearing heavy armor hurts skill, someone.. I think) and even if they are weaing heavy armor, the minus to skill will afect overall DPS.
Oh, and don't forget ranged will be in a FPS mode leaving them vulnerable counter attacks OR slow keyboard strokes.
"Luckily I know that while you make nonsnese baiting threads that get locked....threads I make get sticked by the mods on this forum...." -imbant (greatest board warrior EVER)
Darkfall Countdown: http://darkfallreleasedate.com/
(If it's even possible) a ranged attacker is going to have reverse his view while running, and then lead and aim at a moving target at the same time. I would think that will be extremely difficult. And much more difficult than in past MMORPGs with auto targeting.
I think they are going to make it cumbersome to run away and attack with the bow. You are going to be a support character/assassin/sniper. I think they only instance you have the advantage as a bow user is when you are camping on a cliff and trying to pick off the unlucky people below you.
Personally I don't think you can make a decision on this until the game comes out and we see how game play will be.
Yes since it's a skill based system I would think that everyone will start out with the same hp. However as you advance I would imagine that damage taken and given will begin to resemble all other games. Such as if you build magic skills or ranged you will not be able to wear some armor without penalties, so while the hitpoints will remain comparable the damage taken and inflicted will not. I mean we all know that most magic classes start with weak abilities while most melee start with more damage due to weps and str. Bow users are faster etc...
Even though there are over, what is it 1000 skills? You still won't be able to max out in all of them. And I would imagine that going PURE in any "class" will take up all the max skills that you can max out in, because, probably, certain skills will depend upon certain other skills. An example might be that if you want to be a poison mage then you would have to not only turn up your magic skills but also turn up your poisoning skill which in turn may require you to turn up something else...etc....etc... Same if you want to be like a poison bow user, poison sword user etc. I'm just using poison as an example here but you can see what I mean.
As for kiting...not really sure. I mean there is no auto targeting, no click on name tag and it's an instant hit...you actually have to AIM whether your using a bow, magic or a sword or any other type of weapon. If you've read the noob reviews then you know that Giana said that even using a sword on a short mob she actually had to aim down to hit it. So taking this into consideration AND the fact that to look behind you you actually have to TURN AROUND, I would imagine that kiting would be difficult. Not impossible but very very difficult. Because in order to kite in this game...you have to turn around and face away to run and you will not be able to see if your target is following you and you will not be able to FIRE at your target as long as you are facing away from them.
But again...we will have to wait and see, these are just my opinions.
Krystar Daymen (Old School UO player baby)
Reverse view is not possible in this game. If you want to hit a target you have to be facing it.
Krystar Daymen (Old School UO player baby)
Personally I don't think you can make a decision on this until the game comes out and we see how game play will be.
Yes since it's a skill based system I would think that everyone will start out with the same hp. However as you advance I would imagine that damage taken and given will begin to resemble all other games. Such as if you build magic skills or ranged you will not be able to wear some armor without penalties, so while the hitpoints will remain comparable the damage taken and inflicted will not. I mean we all know that most magic classes start with weak abilities while most melee start with more damage due to weps and str. Bow users are faster etc...
Even though there are over, what is it 1000 skills? You still won't be able to max out in all of them. And I would imagine that going PURE in any "class" will take up all the max skills that you can max out in, because, probably, certain skills will depend upon certain other skills. An example might be that if you want to be a poison mage then you would have to not only turn up your magic skills but also turn up your poisoning skill which in turn may require you to turn up something else...etc....etc... Same if you want to be like a poison bow user, poison sword user etc. I'm just using poison as an example here but you can see what I mean.
As for kiting...not really sure. I mean there is no auto targeting, no click on name tag and it's an instant hit...you actually have to AIM whether your using a bow, magic or a sword or any other type of weapon. If you've read the noob reviews then you know that Giana said that even using a sword on a short mob she actually had to aim down to hit it. So taking this into consideration AND the fact that to look behind you you actually have to TURN AROUND, I would imagine that kiting would be difficult. Not impossible but very very difficult. Because in order to kite in this game...you have to turn around and face away to run and you will not be able to see if your target is following you and you will not be able to FIRE at your target as long as you are facing away from them.
But again...we will have to wait and see, these are just my opinions.
Doesn't sound like kiting would be THAT difficult. You attack, then run away. Wait till attacker quits chasing, then attack, then run away. Shouldn't be a big problem depending on what the range is for ranged attacks, and how long it takes to regain hit points.
If you have to aim for melee attacks as well, then I'd say it makes melee even less desirable. If you have to aim, why not have the advantage of range?
You can just switch to third person view while you are running.
Personally I don't think you can make a decision on this until the game comes out and we see how game play will be.
Yes since it's a skill based system I would think that everyone will start out with the same hp. However as you advance I would imagine that damage taken and given will begin to resemble all other games. Such as if you build magic skills or ranged you will not be able to wear some armor without penalties, so while the hitpoints will remain comparable the damage taken and inflicted will not. I mean we all know that most magic classes start with weak abilities while most melee start with more damage due to weps and str. Bow users are faster etc...
Even though there are over, what is it 1000 skills? You still won't be able to max out in all of them. And I would imagine that going PURE in any "class" will take up all the max skills that you can max out in, because, probably, certain skills will depend upon certain other skills. An example might be that if you want to be a poison mage then you would have to not only turn up your magic skills but also turn up your poisoning skill which in turn may require you to turn up something else...etc....etc... Same if you want to be like a poison bow user, poison sword user etc. I'm just using poison as an example here but you can see what I mean.
As for kiting...not really sure. I mean there is no auto targeting, no click on name tag and it's an instant hit...you actually have to AIM whether your using a bow, magic or a sword or any other type of weapon. If you've read the noob reviews then you know that Giana said that even using a sword on a short mob she actually had to aim down to hit it. So taking this into consideration AND the fact that to look behind you you actually have to TURN AROUND, I would imagine that kiting would be difficult. Not impossible but very very difficult. Because in order to kite in this game...you have to turn around and face away to run and you will not be able to see if your target is following you and you will not be able to FIRE at your target as long as you are facing away from them.
But again...we will have to wait and see, these are just my opinions.
Doesn't sound like kiting would be THAT difficult. You attack, then run away. Wait till attacker quits chasing, then attack, then run away. Shouldn't be a big problem depending on what the range is for ranged attacks, and how long it takes to regain hit points.
If you have to aim for melee attacks as well, then I'd say it makes melee even less desirable. If you have to aim, why not have the advantage of range?
You can just switch to third person view while you are running.
Because I can dodge your arrows or spells if im fast enough. Sure you might have the distance hit, but as im running up on you swerving left and right, your going to have a heck of a time trying to hit me.
Im not sure what advantage you think switching to 3rd person view will do. If i've read correctly you can only shoot in first person view, and also even if in 3rd person view, the view will be close up and only face the way you are facing.
Personally I don't think you can make a decision on this until the game comes out and we see how game play will be.
Yes since it's a skill based system I would think that everyone will start out with the same hp. However as you advance I would imagine that damage taken and given will begin to resemble all other games. Such as if you build magic skills or ranged you will not be able to wear some armor without penalties, so while the hitpoints will remain comparable the damage taken and inflicted will not. I mean we all know that most magic classes start with weak abilities while most melee start with more damage due to weps and str. Bow users are faster etc...
Even though there are over, what is it 1000 skills? You still won't be able to max out in all of them. And I would imagine that going PURE in any "class" will take up all the max skills that you can max out in, because, probably, certain skills will depend upon certain other skills. An example might be that if you want to be a poison mage then you would have to not only turn up your magic skills but also turn up your poisoning skill which in turn may require you to turn up something else...etc....etc... Same if you want to be like a poison bow user, poison sword user etc. I'm just using poison as an example here but you can see what I mean.
As for kiting...not really sure. I mean there is no auto targeting, no click on name tag and it's an instant hit...you actually have to AIM whether your using a bow, magic or a sword or any other type of weapon. If you've read the noob reviews then you know that Giana said that even using a sword on a short mob she actually had to aim down to hit it. So taking this into consideration AND the fact that to look behind you you actually have to TURN AROUND, I would imagine that kiting would be difficult. Not impossible but very very difficult. Because in order to kite in this game...you have to turn around and face away to run and you will not be able to see if your target is following you and you will not be able to FIRE at your target as long as you are facing away from them.
But again...we will have to wait and see, these are just my opinions.
Doesn't sound like kiting would be THAT difficult. You attack, then run away. Wait till attacker quits chasing, then attack, then run away. Shouldn't be a big problem depending on what the range is for ranged attacks, and how long it takes to regain hit points.
If you have to aim for melee attacks as well, then I'd say it makes melee even less desirable. If you have to aim, why not have the advantage of range?
You can just switch to third person view while you are running.
Because I can dodge your arrows or spells if im fast enough. Sure you might have the distance hit, but as im running up on you swerving left and right, your going to have a heck of a time trying to hit me.
When I see you coming, I'll just run away.
If I miss with the ranged attack that time, oh well, I'll just attack you later and hope to hit. And don't forget there is splash damage, so even if you swerve you might get some splash.
So if you got no ranged attacks, I'll just splash you for some damage, and run away, rinse, repeat, till you die, or log off.
My point is you'll get some ranged attacks so you can attack me back in this situation, meaning everyone will be using some sort of ranged attacks.
Obviously this won't work in a zerg, and that's what we'll probably see the most of. I like zergs. Get together 30 or more players and zerg away.
When I see you coming, I'll just run away.
If I miss with the ranged attack that time, oh well, I'll just attack you later and hope to hit. And don't forget there is splash damage, so even if you swerve you might get some splash.
So if you got no ranged attacks, I'll just splash you for some damage, and run away, rinse, repeat, till you die, or log off.
My point is you'll get some ranged attacks so you can attack me back in this situation, meaning everyone will be using some sort of ranged attacks.
Obviously this won't work in a zerg, and that's what we'll probably see the most of. I like zergs. Get together 30 or more players and zerg away.
I can see your point....but....
if you have a higher lvl of range skill then me, why would I waist my time getting weak range attack. It wouldn't do me any good. You hit me worth 30 pts, I hit you with 15.... That would be silly of you to run off in that case. Now, if you think you'll just rinse and repeat like players are some type of NPC player I think you've got something coming to ya
. I'd probebly just wait in a bush or find a way to come up from behind you. Were also not sure how healing will work, so that might also play a role.
Guess we'll just have to wait and see.... De Javu?
When I see you coming, I'll just run away.
If I miss with the ranged attack that time, oh well, I'll just attack you later and hope to hit. And don't forget there is splash damage, so even if you swerve you might get some splash.
So if you got no ranged attacks, I'll just splash you for some damage, and run away, rinse, repeat, till you die, or log off.
My point is you'll get some ranged attacks so you can attack me back in this situation, meaning everyone will be using some sort of ranged attacks.
Obviously this won't work in a zerg, and that's what we'll probably see the most of. I like zergs. Get together 30 or more players and zerg away.
I can see your point....but....
if you have a higher lvl of range skill then me, why would I waist my time getting weak range attack. It wouldn't do me any good. You hit me worth 30 pts, I hit you with 15.... That would be silly of you to run off in that case. Now, if you think you'll just rinse and repeat like players are some type of NPC player I think you've got something coming to ya
. I'd probebly just wait in a bush or find a way to come up from behind you. Were also not sure how healing will work, so that might also play a role.
Guess we'll just have to wait and see.... De Javu?
Most of the posts I'[ve read say your "skill level" won't matter, only your l33t mouse and keyboard skillz.
Like krystdemon was saying there are supposedly close to 1000 skills that can be learned. I would assume that these would include variations of skills seen in all types of previous games. For instance:
Snares
Stuns
Knockdowns
Knockbacks
and of course... the famed "Come Here!" move from Mortal Combat
All of these and maybe something really cool we don't even know about can and likely will find there way into the game.
Also, don't forget about possible resistances to any or all of these things as well.
My prediction is that some sort of hybrid classes will come to dominate the game your just gimping yourself by going pure caster or pure melee, but of course we just won't know till release or if we're lucky open beta. I'm planning on being a hybrid.
Links, any reason you think this will be in Darkfall, other than you think it would be cool?
It's not that I think it would be cool its basic game mechanics, there will be some sort of crowd control ingame. The Knockbacks and Knockdowns can be viewed in the 17 minute gameplay video released a few months ago. The rest is idle speculation but with 1,000 skills its a pretty safe to bet there will be all forms of cc available.
Stamina is also a factor to be taken in consideration. Running, turning around, shooting... That might end up using a lot of stamina from the archer. Perhaps there will be a skill related to melee that might make them use less stamina. Perhaps, as it was hinted at earlier, there will be some kind of snares.
All in all, it's all just speculation. We can only assume that Aventurine would be smart enough to think bout this kind of balancing. The only thing we can do is...yep, you've guessed....WAIT AND SEE
Terrain also has to be taken into account, it,s not like you are going to be in a big open field all of the time, there will be stuff to hide behind. Reload speed of bows etc, can you reload while moving. Is there any info on # of ammunition you can carry cause that would be a real and realistic limiting factor of ranged attack
I just hope that head shots will do more damage than a shot that hits a person's leg. I want to assassinate people. And hide in a sniper spot till I see an enemy of my clan pass by. Heh you know they said that individuals can be put on the attack list of the clan. Whats stopping a single individual from starting a clan and putting people on as he decides hes going to kill them?
same as in Oblivion (and the devs said it's like it) the only good ranged attacks did were the 1 maybe 2 shots from sneak position before the enemy actually got close to you and then you had to switch to melee, the only thing you needed to win in that game was a good tank class the rest was just for support.....Now if you're hidding or in a hard to reach spot maybe you'll get a chance to fire a couple more arrows or spells before the enemy reaches you,maybe they'll hit maybe they won't but it all comes down to hand to hand combat eventually, so hand to hand > only ranged ,but that's my opinion..
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Personally I don't think you can make a decision on this until the game comes out and we see how game play will be.
Yes since it's a skill based system I would think that everyone will start out with the same hp. However as you advance I would imagine that damage taken and given will begin to resemble all other games. Such as if you build magic skills or ranged you will not be able to wear some armor without penalties, so while the hitpoints will remain comparable the damage taken and inflicted will not. I mean we all know that most magic classes start with weak abilities while most melee start with more damage due to weps and str. Bow users are faster etc...
Even though there are over, what is it 1000 skills? You still won't be able to max out in all of them. And I would imagine that going PURE in any "class" will take up all the max skills that you can max out in, because, probably, certain skills will depend upon certain other skills. An example might be that if you want to be a poison mage then you would have to not only turn up your magic skills but also turn up your poisoning skill which in turn may require you to turn up something else...etc....etc... Same if you want to be like a poison bow user, poison sword user etc. I'm just using poison as an example here but you can see what I mean.
As for kiting...not really sure. I mean there is no auto targeting, no click on name tag and it's an instant hit...you actually have to AIM whether your using a bow, magic or a sword or any other type of weapon. If you've read the noob reviews then you know that Giana said that even using a sword on a short mob she actually had to aim down to hit it. So taking this into consideration AND the fact that to look behind you you actually have to TURN AROUND, I would imagine that kiting would be difficult. Not impossible but very very difficult. Because in order to kite in this game...you have to turn around and face away to run and you will not be able to see if your target is following you and you will not be able to FIRE at your target as long as you are facing away from them.
But again...we will have to wait and see, these are just my opinions.
Doesn't sound like kiting would be THAT difficult. You attack, then run away. Wait till attacker quits chasing, then attack, then run away. Shouldn't be a big problem depending on what the range is for ranged attacks, and how long it takes to regain hit points.
If you have to aim for melee attacks as well, then I'd say it makes melee even less desirable. If you have to aim, why not have the advantage of range?
You can just switch to third person view while you are running.
What would prevent the person from just pulling out their mount and then riding away? Or, riding up to attack you?
Granted, this assumes they have a mount.
When I see you coming, I'll just run away.
If I miss with the ranged attack that time, oh well, I'll just attack you later and hope to hit. And don't forget there is splash damage, so even if you swerve you might get some splash.
So if you got no ranged attacks, I'll just splash you for some damage, and run away, rinse, repeat, till you die, or log off.
My point is you'll get some ranged attacks so you can attack me back in this situation, meaning everyone will be using some sort of ranged attacks.
Obviously this won't work in a zerg, and that's what we'll probably see the most of. I like zergs. Get together 30 or more players and zerg away.
I can see your point....but....
if you have a higher lvl of range skill then me, why would I waist my time getting weak range attack. It wouldn't do me any good. You hit me worth 30 pts, I hit you with 15.... That would be silly of you to run off in that case. Now, if you think you'll just rinse and repeat like players are some type of NPC player I think you've got something coming to ya
. I'd probebly just wait in a bush or find a way to come up from behind you. Were also not sure how healing will work, so that might also play a role.
Guess we'll just have to wait and see.... De Javu?
Most of the posts I'[ve read say your "skill level" won't matter, only your l33t mouse and keyboard skillz.
Then what would be the point of having skill gain? I would assume that skill gains will as well play a role in damage.
Has anyone considered that some toons will be able to run faster then others? I would imagine a fully armored heavy knight type person would be rather slow without his mount (or at least not as agile as an archer). Possibly, the enemy has a diffrent skill set then you and instead of running after you pulls out his bow and/or uses spells to freeze or simply damge from afar. Ranged skills are also far more useful when you are nearly sure that you will hit but the other person won't chase you down, you aren't sure of either in Darkfall I would imagine.
I can imagine a lot of things are possible.
1) Why not have a ranged skill of your own? Even if you prefer to play a melee centric player, there is -nothing- stopping you from becoming quite adequate w/ a bow(or magic) when the situation arises. Thats the great thing about skill based games. In fact I think it would probably be as unwise to neglect your range abilities as a warrior, as it would be to neglect your melee abilities as an archer.
2) I suspect the stamina system will make it difficult to keep range against a person and kite them while also taking potshots. Also I would think the first person nature of using ranged attacks, the fact you have to aim your shots, and trying to combine that w/ kiting will make it much more difficult to do well than a game where you simply autotarget. Especially if you move more slowly while moving backwards(I'm not sure if thats the case, but it generally is). Thats all speculation though, and I'm sure outstanding players will do quite well regardless.
3) Mounts combat. At this point you can't use archery or magic while mounted(last i heard). I don't care how slick of a kiter you are, you aren't going to outrun a mounted melee character for long.
Honestly I think the game is going to be a largely melee centric game in smallscale combat. You'll definitely want to plink as many arrows/fireballs into your enemy as possible before he closes ranks, but you'll probably want to switch out to a melee weapon at that point.
I think archery and ranged damage magic will used more-so in larger scale pvp conflicts(ie city sieges, naval combat, largescale battles) where things like kiting aren't really even an issue. Instead the focus will be on positioning and proper protection of your ranged support so they don't get mowed down by calvary or a flanking unit.
The melee players can dodge spells and arrows, if they're fast enough. They could wear light armour and catch up to the archer, then beat him with a strong weapon. The archer actually has to aim, so he could miss and lose time. Its difficult to run and shoot at the same time, same with spells. You can run out of arrows and mana--the other guy can catch up and just swing a mace in your face.
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Personally, it seems to me with the FPS, aimed combat the advantage is to the melee character. I don't think archers are going to be able to hit a melee character that is smart and doesn't charge straight at them.
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Well maybe you are right, but i play a lot of fps games and usually it doesn't matter how you try and dodge i can hit you with a sniper rifle (which is hard when you are close up). Of course i have considered that a sniper rifle isn't an arrow but at close range its pretty much the same aiming idea.
Edit: I am not trying to blow my own horn either, i am just saying that i am not the only one who can do that.