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Why pre-trammel UO failed, and the similarities to DF

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  • ghoul31ghoul31 Member Posts: 1,955
    Originally posted by virox69




     
    I will have too say you have absolutely no clue what your talking about or you were just to anti-social to band together and keep yourself from being ganked. sorry to sound harsh...but you dont know what your talkin about.



     

    They changed it because everyone was leaving. The devs have stated as much. So that proves you are wrong. Calling me names doesn't change anything. It just proves you have no real argument.

     

  • virox69virox69 Member Posts: 90
    Originally posted by ghoul31

    Originally posted by virox69




     
    I will have too say you have absolutely no clue what your talking about or you were just to anti-social to band together and keep yourself from being ganked. sorry to sound harsh...but you dont know what your talkin about.



     

    They changed it because everyone was leaving. The devs have stated as much. So that proves you are wrong. Calling me names doesn't change anything. It just proves you have no real argument.

     



     

    i dont care what the devs stated they are wrong i was there....i am sorry if you took what I posted earlier as name calling as it was not my intention

  • ghoul31ghoul31 Member Posts: 1,955
    Originally posted by Answer_KV


     
    The reason they ran in 10 man gank groups was for their own protection, and I'm not doubting it's likelihood, but I think you exaggerate quite a bit.   God it sucked getting taken out while red. 



     

    I played at release. If you were in a dungeon (there were only 3) every 5 minutes like clock work, a 10 man gank group appeared and killed everyon in the dungeon. 

    So everyone quit, then the gankers had nobody to gank so they quit. The server I was on become totally empty. So then I quit

     

  • ghoul31ghoul31 Member Posts: 1,955
    Originally posted by virox69




     
    i dont care what the devs stated they are wrong i was there....i am sorry if you took what I posted earlier as name calling as it was not my intention



     

    If people weren't all leaving, they wouldn't have changed it. Its as simple as that. So what you are saying doesn't make any sense

     

  • AlienShirtAlienShirt Member UncommonPosts: 621
    Originally posted by Azrile


    It's apparent that  part 6 of Noobs really clarifies how 'exactly' the ruleset of DF will be the same as UO was before Trammel.   Her comments about going rogue (grey in UO).
    The fact is, that UO was dying pretty rapidly up until they announced Trammel.    Let me give you some reasons why players quit under this kind of system.
    1.  Exploits -     Dying to players who exploit in other games is annoying.. dying to exploiters and losing all your stuff will make you completely stop playing until the exploit is fixed.   How fast do 'exploits' spread? Once someone learns it, they will pass it onto their guild and friends.  How fast do most games take to fix an exploit?  A few weeks to acknowledge it, another 2 weeks to fix it?  UO had a bunch of real exploits (spamming chat to get people to lag) and they also had 'tricks'.   Just like in UO.. players will learn how to get you to go rogue/grey so they can get you killed.  Honest players will just stop playing, everyone else will learn to use the exploit.
    2. Lag/Crashes - Same as above.  If you have lag spikes at all, will you really play that day? In other games, death isn't that big of a deal, so you don't mind getting killed a few extra times because your connection is bad.  
    3. Brit graveyard - To those that didn't play UO, I'll explain this :)  Brit graveyard was typically the first area where new players would 'wander' outside of town.  It was right outside of the biggest town, and it had easy monsters to kill.  Because of this, it was often the place where Murderers hung out.  In UO, new players were often essentially trapped in town.  Yes, if you knew people before you started playing, they could help you.. but you basically had to know them BEFORE you started playing.  Someone who just bought the box, logged in and started playing, probably spent their first month rarely getting out of town.  This is the exact reason UO introduced Trammel.   Players weren't renewing after their free month, and they were citing 'ganking' as the reason.   The same thing will happen in Darkfall.  Anti-social players will camp the area where new players first step into the 'world' and gank them. 
    4. Don't come late to the party -  This kind of goes with #3.  But basically what happens is if you are a month or two late starting the game, you will be getting ganked all the time by players that are more powerful than you and they will block your progress.  The first players who got through 'brit graveyard' were free to advance their skills pretty freely, but anyone who started late, always had more powerful characters waiting for them.  This was the reason that some players 'loved' old UO.. because they were out there early.   I was lucky when I played UO, i started at launch.  But I had enough friends who started late and I 'experienced' what they did.   New players won't renew
    5. Class/skill balance - Class balance is extremely hard to do.  Class balance in PvP is almost impossible.   How much fun is it going to be to play if you aren't the OP class? If because of skill/class balance you are losing your gear all the time.  In every game, players cry about class balance.. in a game where it means you lose your gear..they will do more than cry, they will quit, or they will reroll to the OP class.
    6. Bring your friends -  full-loss death means that players will group up and wander in bands.  This sounds cool in theory, but what happens if you log in and you don't have many friends on?   And again, what about new players?
    UO pre-trammel showed exactly what is going to happen with DF.
    1.  New players won't last the first month

    2. Exploits will be rampent and spread quickly.   'tricking' players into going grey will be considered a tactic.  Players who are successful aren't the ones who use their skills the best, they will be the ones who learn to game the game.

    3. The Flavor-of-the-month class will be the only one played.   UO had a phase (about 6 months) where everyone was a mage who carried a polearm. 

    4.  Gear grinding -  You'll have to have many sets of gear stored, or else when you die with your group, you will get left behind as you try to get more gear.
    There is a reason why UO made Trammel, they were losing a ton of players because of the ruleset.
    If you have a pre-built guild and you plan on starting on day 1 things will seem fine for a few weeks... but the UO ruleset just is not viable for a longterm game



     

    Just more reasons on why the game is (will be) called Darkfail.

  • virox69virox69 Member Posts: 90
    Originally posted by ghoul31

    Originally posted by Answer_KV


     
    The reason they ran in 10 man gank groups was for their own protection, and I'm not doubting it's likelihood, but I think you exaggerate quite a bit.   God it sucked getting taken out while red. 



     

    I played at release. If you were in a dungeon (there were only 3) every 5 minutes like clock work, a 10 man gank group appeared and killed everyon in the dungeon. 

    So everyone quit, then the gankers had nobody to gank so they quit. The server I was on become totally empty. So then I quit

     



     

    why didnt everyone in the dungeon band together and kill the 10 man gank group?

    what is your ideal of empty? because UO had a very healthy population for a MMO in 97.....nobody even knew what a MMO was.

    UO wasnt failing pre=trammel ..there was absolutly no place too put a new house or castle anywhere on any server...as I am sure you remember you had to refresh your house every 7 days or it would decay. this doesnt support a dying game scenario.

    Its my belief that the crying on the forums by the ones who being ganked is what caused the devs to make trammel a safe zone...they just used the failing poulation as an excuse.

    I dont know the numbers but I am quite sure that UO was the first MMO to break 100k subs and that was during pre-trammel days.....thats probably far more then they expected I would be willing to bet.

    I think they thought by adding a safe zone they could bring in even more subs ..but that backfired on them.

  • Answer_KVAnswer_KV Member Posts: 22
    Originally posted by ghoul31
    I played at release. If you were in a dungeon (there were only 3) every 5 minutes like clock work, a 10 man gank group appeared and killed everyon in the dungeon. 
    So everyone quit, then the gankers had nobody to gank so they quit. The server I was on become totally empty. So then I quit

    Oh yeah, I remember when that happened.

     

     

    Wait, no I don't.   Every open server at release was full to the brim with players.  You literally couldn't wander off into the deep wilderness without passing several people.   Before statloss  I can remember PKing through droves of players in a dungeon, recalling away and then right back, with literally an entirely new flock of players.

    A system such as statloss was a necessity, and the events that you portrayed would have eventually became a reality if it wasn't remedied, but your memory of the times is severely flawed.  I'm wondering if we played the same game.  Ultima Online,  right?

    There was Shame, Deceit, Hythloth, Destard, Wrong and Despise at release, all with 3-4 massive levels in each one.  I think you might be talking about Runescape or something.

  • virox69virox69 Member Posts: 90
    Originally posted by ghoul31

    Originally posted by virox69




     
    i dont care what the devs stated they are wrong i was there....i am sorry if you took what I posted earlier as name calling as it was not my intention



     

    If people weren't all leaving, they wouldn't have changed it. Its as simple as that. So what you are saying doesn't make any sense

     



     

    you have absolutly no facts to back up that statement

    its my belief that they changed it too try and cater to a more casual crowd as well and pull even more subs...but as I have no facts to back up my statement either...we will never know.

  • virox69virox69 Member Posts: 90
    Originally posted by Answer_KV

    Originally posted by ghoul31
    I played at release. If you were in a dungeon (there were only 3) every 5 minutes like clock work, a 10 man gank group appeared and killed everyon in the dungeon. 
    So everyone quit, then the gankers had nobody to gank so they quit. The server I was on become totally empty. So then I quit

    Oh yeah, I remember when that happened.

     

     

    Wait, no I don't.   Every open server at release was full to the brim with players.  You literally couldn't wander off into the deep wilderness without passing several people.   Before statloss  I can remember PKing through droves of players in a dungeon, recalling away and then right back, with literally an entirely new flock of players.

    A system such as statloss was a necessity, and the events that you portrayed would have eventually became a reality if it wasn't remedied, but your memory of the times is severely flawed.  I'm wondering if we played the same game.  Ultima [b]Online[/b], right?

    There was Shame, Deceit, Hythloth, Destard, Wrong and Despise at release, all with 3-4 massive levels in each one.  I think you might be talking about Runescape or something.

    theres no possible way he played the game we played.....its now my belief that he got ganked over and over and never figured out how too over come it.

     

  • Answer_KVAnswer_KV Member Posts: 22

    That's a big problem in MMOs, unfortunate for their well-being though.  In the event that DFO does release, I hope the community is strong enough to quickly shut down these kind of people immediately. 

    I was a part of a UO PRS (player-ran server) for the better part of 5 years.   You wouldn't believe how many people would join even though it boasted "Hardcore Pre-Tram UO ruleset" and would complain in the forums about having some form of "safe lands" incorporated.   I don't want to live in a gaming world where people like that have the deciding factor.

  • virox69virox69 Member Posts: 90

    Its the "squeaky wheel gets the grease" syndrome....those that are happy and enjoying the game are doing just that...enjoying the game. 

  • Answer_KVAnswer_KV Member Posts: 22

    It really is.  I know if this game releases, I won't be a silent wheel any longer.  I would imagine the new forums will be a lot like the current DFO ones as well, with any Trammel-esque idea getting shot down without a moment's notice.

  • KelathosKelathos Member Posts: 73

    I played UO eight years ago, and the arguments used here against it are just plain stupid.

    You want epic loot? Go play WoW. If you lost your precious items in UO you just visit a blacksmith and have him craft you new items. You didn’t waste months of your life farming something, you spent it socializing and interacting with other players. You restrict that interaction and you gut the game.

  • ghoul31ghoul31 Member Posts: 1,955
    Originally posted by virox69

    Originally posted by Answer_KV


    Oh yeah, I remember when that happened.
      
    Wait, no I don't.   Every open server at release was full to the brim with players.  You literally couldn't wander off into the deep wilderness without passing several people.   Before statloss  I can remember PKing through droves of players in a dungeon, recalling away and then right back, with literally an entirely new flock of players.

    theres no possible way he played the game we played.....its now my belief that he got ganked over and over and never figured out how too over come it.

     



     

    Again , the devs have stated that everyone was leaving because it was just  total gankfest. I was there and saw it. So the devs have proven you wrong,. I'm sorry that you can't kill solo players with your 10 man gank group anymore. I really do feel sorry for you. Not.

     

     

  • Answer_KVAnswer_KV Member Posts: 22
    Originally posted by ghoul31

    Originally posted by virox69

    Originally posted by Answer_KV


    Oh yeah, I remember when that happened.
      
    Wait, no I don't.   Every open server at release was full to the brim with players.  You literally couldn't wander off into the deep wilderness without passing several people.   Before statloss  I can remember PKing through droves of players in a dungeon, recalling away and then right back, with literally an entirely new flock of players.

    theres no possible way he played the game we played.....its now my belief that he got ganked over and over and never figured out how too over come it.

    Again , the devs have stated that everyone was leaving because it was just  total gankfest. I was there and saw it. So the devs have proven you wrong,. I'm sorry that you can't kill solo players with your 10 man gank group anymore. I really do feel sorry for you. Not.

     

    You can't back up anything you say with solid arguments, just baseless attacks.   GG.  I can prove my statements with general consensus on any forum you visit and screenshots of the thousands of players rallying before Trammel's implementation.   You can't even provide a single dev quote which should be far more official, concrete, and documented than anything I can offer.

  • ghoul31ghoul31 Member Posts: 1,955
    Originally posted by Answer_KV


     
    You can't back up anything you say with solid arguments, just baseless attacks.   GG.  I can prove my statements with general consensus on any forum you visit and screenshots of the thousands of players rallying before Trammel's implementation.   You can't even provide a single dev quote which should be far more official, concrete, and documented than anything I can offer.



     

    The fact that they changed it proves me right. They wouldn't have made such a drastic change unless there was a huge problem. Use some common sense.

     

  • Answer_KVAnswer_KV Member Posts: 22
    Originally posted by ghoul31

    Originally posted by Answer_KV


     
    You can't back up anything you say with solid arguments, just baseless attacks.   GG.  I can prove my statements with general consensus on any forum you visit and screenshots of the thousands of players rallying before Trammel's implementation.   You can't even provide a single dev quote which should be far more official, concrete, and documented than anything I can offer.

    The fact that they changed it proves me right. They wouldn't have made such a drastic change unless there was a huge problem. Use some common sense.

    Common sense.  Interesting.  Trammel was introduced about a year after Everquest was created with the same features.    They knew there was a change in the market trend, therefor they would capitalize.  End story.   It's called staying true to your game, leave it the way players love it.  If Call of Duty gets trumped by Final Fantasy, they aren't going to turn their game into a turn-based shooter just because the FPV hurts a few people's eyes.

  • Answer_KVAnswer_KV Member Posts: 22

     .

  • virox69virox69 Member Posts: 90
    Originally posted by ghoul31

    Originally posted by virox69

    Originally posted by Answer_KV


    Oh yeah, I remember when that happened.
      
    Wait, no I don't.   Every open server at release was full to the brim with players.  You literally couldn't wander off into the deep wilderness without passing several people.   Before statloss  I can remember PKing through droves of players in a dungeon, recalling away and then right back, with literally an entirely new flock of players.

    theres no possible way he played the game we played.....its now my belief that he got ganked over and over and never figured out how too over come it.

     



     

    Again , the devs have stated that everyone was leaving because it was just  total gankfest. I was there and saw it. So the devs have proven you wrong,. I'm sorry that you can't kill solo players with your 10 man gank group anymore. I really do feel sorry for you. Not.

     

     



     

    well regardless what the devs said..............I am pretty sure there will be random ganking in DF and people will lose their stuff and they will whine on the forums.........only this time I will be there to say its working as intended leave it alone and I hope others will be also.

    And if that means there will only be a population like pre-trammel days I will be fine with that and I hope the devs are too.

    I am not a ganker...but I like having them in my game for the excitement and the community that they force into fruition. Its exciting and fun to me...if its not to you then dont play.

    I am also sure there will be exploits to get people to turn grey.....like running into someones aoe attack as they kill pve stuff....and people will complain about this...I welcome it even tho I wont use it...again it adds more excitement and another element of difficulty.

    DF is being touted as this type of game..if people dont like it they shouldn't even bother with it and leave it too the ones that do enjoy it.

    I like to compare it too real life caveman days - only the strongest survive and thrive

    games like wow are more like modern days - anyone even the weak can survive and even thrive

    I wanna play game with the stongest not a bunch of weak

  • ghoul31ghoul31 Member Posts: 1,955
    Originally posted by Answer_KV


    Common sense.  Interesting.  Trammel was introduced about a year after Everquest was created with the same features.   



     

    Exactly. When Everquest was released, people realized, you could play a MMORPG without being ganked every 5 minutes. So everyone left for Everquest.

    Just look a Asheron's call darktide server. There is like 50 people playing on it. That has full looting and open pvp, and its a total failure.

     

  • AntariousAntarious Member UncommonPosts: 2,846
    Originally posted by ghoul31

    Originally posted by Answer_KV


     
    You can't back up anything you say with solid arguments, just baseless attacks.   GG.  I can prove my statements with general consensus on any forum you visit and screenshots of the thousands of players rallying before Trammel's implementation.   You can't even provide a single dev quote which should be far more official, concrete, and documented than anything I can offer.



     

    The fact that they changed it proves me right. They wouldn't have made such a drastic change unless there was a huge problem. Use some common sense.

     



     

    *I* played this game from 1997-2002.  I was in the interest program until they shut that down.  So I have a tiny bit of history with UO.

    This quote and the reply are the perfect example of how people see UO or most any game.

    Sure I remember when Sonoma had "friday night fights" and the desert was filled.. not only filled but people stacked on top of each other.. so it was "filled" 3 or 4 times.

    To me the game never felt as full later on.  There were plenty of "carebears" if you like that term who stayed even before Trammel.  I was probably one of them altho I would pvp and/or defend myself if attacked.  I didn't whine if I got killed... I just got a new suit out of the bank.  Maybe I even got my old stuff back when I killed the guy.

    Yet the EA press release says the highest population was after AoS.. hard to believe.

    There isn't a right or wrong here .. there are two worlds of players with opposing views.

    If UO had launched with a Trammel.. then it probably would have retained a higher population earlier.  Perhaps have been seen as a "success" so we didn't end up with the endless stream of crap EQ type clones.

    I just wish I had a modern version of UO... and really the first one was the best MMO I played.. regardless of what it turned into later .. or over time.

    /cheers

     

  • virox69virox69 Member Posts: 90
    Originally posted by ghoul31

    Originally posted by Answer_KV


     
    You can't back up anything you say with solid arguments, just baseless attacks.   GG.  I can prove my statements with general consensus on any forum you visit and screenshots of the thousands of players rallying before Trammel's implementation.   You can't even provide a single dev quote which should be far more official, concrete, and documented than anything I can offer.



     

    The fact that they changed it proves me right. They wouldn't have made such a drastic change unless there was a huge problem. Use some common sense.

     



     

    the fact that they changed doesnt prove that "everybody was leaving because it was a total gankfest"

    it only proves that they wanted to take the game in another direction ......period

  • Answer_KVAnswer_KV Member Posts: 22
    Originally posted by ghoul31

    Originally posted by Answer_KV


    Common sense.  Interesting.  Trammel was introduced about a year after Everquest was created with the same features.  

    Exactly. When Everquest was released, people realized, you could play a MMORPG without being ganked every 5 minutes. So everyone left for Everquest.

    Just look a Asheron's call darktide server. There is like 50 people playing on it. That has full looting and open pvp, and its a total failure.



    Naturally.  You don't even need to play with others or worry about their influence over your gaming experience, fun stuff!  Worth every penny of that 15 dollars a month for that online experience.   Asheron's Call is a horrible example, the game is like 10 years old,  I wouldn't expect UO to still be running strong after it's 12 years.   

    In the end, everyone migrated to EQ because it offered next-gen graphics and gameplay.    UO was an aging engine, if they could have upgraded in a timely fashion instead of going Trammel,  EQ wouldn't have seen the numbers.

  • ghoul31ghoul31 Member Posts: 1,955
    Originally posted by virox69




     
    the fact that they changed doesnt prove that "everybody was leaving because it was a total gankfest"
    it only proves that they wanted to take the game in another direction ......period



     

    just look at wolfmann said. If you want to know where he got it, ask him.  He has no reason to lie about this. But go ahead and call him a liar anyway. I'm sure you will

     

    "If my memory doesn't fail me, I remember something I read somewhere, from one of the developers of UO.

     

    The Retention rate, as in the boxes sold vs people stayin was very low on UO before trammel.

    They had to keep a agressive ad campaign going to get new blood into the game to keep growing, as they were losing alot of people per month. (Even in NORWEGIAN smalltime computer magazines they bought ad space)

    According to the dev, and I believe him, since I was there witnessing it first hand (Not a hardcore PK'er, am a casual player/RP'er), almost all of the people who left, stated it was the frantic PK'ing.

    Heck, back then, the town had a iron ring of PK'ers around it, and there were not enough Anti PK'ers(despite PK and anti PK claiming otherwise), and you barely could get out of town without running into one of tens of bands of PK'ers(who incidently didn't fight amongst themselves, but only against people trying to leave town).

    So, Trammel was built and released, to counter those issues, and it worked. Alot less people left the game, and they in a time when they had competition and falling box sales(the box sales that had kept them still growing), UO kept on growing..."

     

  • Answer_KVAnswer_KV Member Posts: 22

    So your main basis of an argument you make in every post to prove how valid your opinion is... is just an unproven quote from someone with a shared opinion from the same thread??

    Nicceee....

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