Dude, get some rational reasoning ability. As already stated, Everquest was a newer game with better graphics and a more familiar class and level based system. The PvP servers for DAoC and AC were an alternate (read afterthought) rule set. It was a bolt-on; the game was not built from the ground up for FFA PvP. Consequently, it is no surprise that those servers were not as succesful as the primary ruleset. Shadowbane was a technical disaster, bug-city. Plus the level based system and overly complex character development made for a lot of un-even fights. If you think the only factor determining the success/failure of the titles that you mentioned is that they had non-consentual pvp then you are an idiot. No really you are. Some people like MMO PvP and some people don't. Also, already stated, Trammel was EA's answer to a perceived problem. Koster is on record saying that yes rampant PK'ing was a problem and that the stat loss for murderers had reduced it to, in his opinion, appropriate levels but EA went ahead with Trammel anyway. The version of history depends on who you talk to. BTW, if you have such a hate-on for PvP why are you trolling in the DF forum?
you just keep making excuses every time an open pvp game fails. Its getting really old. And when Darkfall fails you will make more excuses. Give it up already
Originally posted by ghoul31 you just keep making excuses every time an open pvp game fails. Its getting really old. And when Darkfall fails you will make more excuses. Give it up already
What is getting old is your pointless trolling. In addition to your complete lack of logical reasoning and critical thinking skills you apparently have no reading comprehension skills either. Where in my posts did I once say that Darkfall is going to succeed? It may or it may not. In that context, I have nothing to give up. So sorry.
I am simply (if anything is simple for you) highlighting that your arguments contain faulty reasoning between cause and effect of MMO 'failure' (you have not even defined what failure is).
Yes they are both games but only one of them has 1)a world championship 2)a world champion 3) can look good in your CV 4)exists in both RL and VL 5) has professionals (people that make money playing it) at it. Besides chess isn't a game of speed and accuracy it's a game of patience and yes predicting your opponents next move,personally i get a headache after only an hour of playing chess. I hope Darkfall will be the same. I hope not, getting a headache after an hour of playing doesn't sound too appealing to me
Clearly you have a problem with playing video games (which makes me wonder why you are on MMORPG.Com, but I digress)
i wonder how you ended up with this conclusion but for the sake of conversation i shall accept it for now
Think about what you are saying, before you type it please.
Right back at you
1) Many Video Games have world championships (I was almost flown to Korea 2 years ago to participate in a World Championship for a FPS video game, so your wrong on the first one)
Yeah i just found out about this one and i am a bit shocked honestly
2) If there are world championships (and there are) then there are also victors, who then become the world champions, so you are wrong on the second one too (I know the people who won the WC for that game, I hate them for going instead of me -.- lol)
Watch my answer above
3) Dunno what a CV is, might wanna clarify on your acronyms :P
You're either to young to know what a CV is or too rich anyone applying for a job needs one 'Curriculum Vitae' search it up in a dictionary
4) That statement is just ignorant, I mean seriously, saying that it doesn't take skill because there aren't trolls and goblins running around in real life for you to kill is just pathetic.
Care to explain to me how exactly is pressing the mouse button really fast while strafing is a skill??
5) There are tons of profesionals, someone posted about Fatality, he is a profesional gamer, and there are profesional gaming teams, who are on TV (and yea, there are shows about people playing Dead or Alive, and Counter strike/various other games) and teams get paid for winning, especially when they win the championship of their league/whatever, so you are WRONG AGAIN.
Now see i found out just a few minutes ago and i still lol at this term professional gamer. Games are supposed to be fun first the instant that 'professionalism' is added the fun factor goes right out the window for me cause soon after we have people running around flaunting their ' game achievements' and 'uber elite status' demanding,some times, recognition for things that nobody but them could possibly care
6) You state that the reason why chess takes skill, is because it doesn't use speed or accuracy, and those are key parts to what "skill" means, the ability to out manuever, out perform, and out think everyone else. Chess doesn't rely solely on quickness, true, but it is a part, why else would the championship chess leagues require you to use a clock and follow strict time requirements (meaning you have to be quick, you cant just sit for 5 hours and think).
Ok i'll give you that one i wasn't talking about pro league chess i was talking about the commonly know features of the game worldwide and quickness isn't one of them but nontheless it is a chess feature
You seam to have a TOTAL bias against people who play video games, thinking that games (in general) don't take skill, because it isn't something that you can repeat in real life (IE slaying dragons etc), but games use dexterity (the ability to out click / out manuever your oponents), accuracy (the ability to not only move your mouse quickly, but to move them to the right place), and plenty of ingenuity (the ability to think quickly on your feet [or butt as the case may be] and be able to do complexe rationalities while on the move, to be able to determine what you should do, how, and when. Basically, the ability to out think your opponent).
If the aforementioned items are not what determine "Skill" for you, I suggest you go and look it up in the dictionary. Or maybe go see a theropist.
If i'm biased against people that play games then i'm biased towards myself too because i am a gamer myself which in turn makes this some sort of split personallity disorder But i guess that's just your opinion i'm only biased as far as people like you are concerned, that's the sort of people that take the whole gaming thing a bit to seriously ( talking about skills and 'out clicking'[WTF does that even mean] their opponent)and not so on it's fun side.
Therapist???Nah, doesn't work too expensive. I prefer my local bar that has one of those bartenders that know how to listen (now that's an actual skill) and who knows maybe i'll get lucky enough and find a chick that's drunk enough to come home with me
First off, I am from the USA, so we call it a Resume (and yes I have one), second off, you can infact put gaming achievements on certain resumes, for instance if you were trying to get into the gaming industry, such as Quality Assurance or Design, if you won a world championship at First Person Shooters, they would be someone inclined to listen to your point of view on how to make a good First Person Shooter, or equipment to go along with said games (such as Infinity with his brand of Sound Cards and Head Sets).
Now would I put that I had a level 80 Mage on my resume to Kinkos, probably not, that would get you laughed out the door. (and no I dont play wow).
Resume?? Really i thought you didn't like the French over there JK ! Strangely enough i don't have any other objections with this paragraph.
And why do I think you dislike gamers? Because you mock gaming in general, you degenerate it down to just "point and click", and to a certain degree it is, for those who are less inclined to know better (you). I play first person shooters mainly, I am talking about America's Army, Battlefield, Call of Duty, and the like, if you go into one of those games, and think that who wins has nothing to do with skill, then thats probably cause you are never the winner.
Mocking??? No sir i just don't elevate it to the level that many do, for me it's just a game nothing more, nothing less. I don't build my life around it i just insert it in whenever i so please.Yes FPS are my favorite type of games next to RPG especially when i gather with a few friends and have a LAN party at some after midnight hour on a Saturday night after we all had our beers and are wasted enough.Sometimes i win and most times i lose but i enjoy it regardless,cause hey, it's just a game
"Care to explain to me how exactly is pressing the mouse button really fast while strafing is a skill??"
I will, because it can be broken down to Hand Eye Coordination. Me being able to move my aim reticle over your head, and pull the trigger takes the same brain work that a Drag Racer uses to see a green light, and hit the gas while shifting gears in order to beat his opponent by fractions of a second, just like I get a headshot on you by just a fraction of a second before you can shoot back.
"Games are supposed to be fun first the instant that 'professionalism' is added the fun factor goes right out the window for me cause soon after we have people running around flaunting their ' game achievements' and 'uber elite status' demanding,some times, recognition for things that nobody but them could possibly care"
Once again, you bring in personality traits. You assume that because some people are better then others, they will/have to flaunt it. You recognize that there are people who are better, but you don't recognize WHY there are people who are better. Tell me this, if it isn't skill, then what is it? If you and I are going against each other, and all outstanding factors are equal (gear, level, etc) and I win by a large margin, WHY did that happen? Lets say we go at it again, and the same result happens, WHY did I win? Luck? Fate? No pal, I think its because I am better, thus I am more skilled then you are at the game. Why are you so reluctant to admit that skill does factor into it?
You beat me 1 time i say : it's luck, 2 times: coincidence, 3 times: is fate. However every dog has it's day and eventually i will get back at you 1,2,3 times...So what are you gonna say then?"Gee i guess you are more skilful than me.." or "You just got lucky ,i'll get you next time" hmmm i wonder......
"If i'm biased against people that play games then i'm biased towards myself too"
I appologize, I misworded what I wanted to say, let me rephrase. You aren't biased against gamers, you are biased against gamers who are better then you. Whether they flaunt it or not, you shrug it off as something along the lines of "luck" and say it doesn't "take skill" because you don't want to admit it to yourself, so you make excuses, and you dodge the real issue, and it doesn't matter how much you get proven wrong, you aren't going to admit it, so I am just going to end this little rant now. Have fun :P
Again i must repeat myself i treat a game as a game should be treated and that's as a game.If i shrug it off everything alongside the lines of "luck" as you claim then can i claim that you are to prompt to declare every "victory" over some "n00b" that you achieve due to your "skillz" at the game regardless whether or not he hit a lagspike at that point or he got distracted by some external source and you will be equally prompt to call him "lucky" the next time he "pwnz" you thus contradicting yourself when you talk about "game skillz"??Or is that not in your realm of possibilities to happen? See?? 2 can play this game...
Still you're right about 1 thing this is getting a bit and that's unfair towards the OP of the thread, so i'm willing to give it a rest as long as you are, besides i think we offered this community enough entertainment for the day if you want to continue this discussion feel free to pm me...
I agree that we should get back on topic, but I do feel inclined to clear something up.
Everyone has their off days, and their on days, true enough, if I win some, then you win some, then I am not a more skillful player then you, we are at the same skill level. Because even when two people are at the same skill level, it won't end up in a constant tie, you will win some times, and you will lose some times, that is the law of averages. But what I was refering to, wasn't two equal opponents, just two players on equal ground (with different skill levels), there is a difference. Even if one person has far more skill then the other, he won't win every time, like I said, luck does play a factor, but if someone is more skilled they will still win with a higher average then the other, it wont end up 5-5, it will end up more like 9-1 or 8-2. Assuming that two people of equal level and stats/gear will always end up in a draw (or eventually a 5-5 draw) in a skill based game, is just hopeful thinking.
The thing is, you are side stepping the issue of skills being part of the game, and you are coming up with absurd scenarios to make an excuse as to why I would kill someone (As in lag spikes, and outside factors causing all of my excess kills). You seem to assume that if I kill someone once, I assume I am better then them, and if they kill me back, I make an excuse as per "luck". I don't consider myself better then someone until I have beaten them so many times, (in a large ratio, not 6-4, more like 9-1 or 8-2 ratio) and not until I understand their tactics (on this map, do they like to go here, do they like to go there, do they wait for me to come to them, do they rush at me, what gun do they prefer, the sniper, the SMG, etc etc) until I have analyzed their game play, and understand how they play. Until then its just a "getting to know eachother period", which I often go through with clan mates and friends. I know some of my friends are better then me at some things (aka Sniping, which I counteract with rushing and hit and run tactics) while I am better then them at other things (IE close quarters, anticipating where they will go, etc), I got to know them, I got to know how they play, I anticipate their moves, I play better then them, more skilled then them. I don't just play with random people and assume I am better, which is where you seam to be getting confused
Yes you can chalk things up to "Its a game, I play it for fun", well like chess, I like to see how well I can do, and when I try to do my best, and succeed, I enjoy the game, and when I lose, I try to learn from my mistakes, and do better next time. Which is where "Skill" comes into the game for me.
Let me put things like this, you said you do LANS and play a FPS. If you went one on one with someone in a FPS, you both had the same gun, do you think that it would constantly end in a 5-5 tie? Or do you think if you were playing someone who was better then you (more skilled) or less skilled then you, one of you would take the lead, and win consistently more then the other? What you are saying, is that in video games, if two people both have the same stuff, then skill doesn't matter, it will end in a tie. When if you look at any competitive ladders (TWL, CAL) that is not the case, the better more skilled team comes out on top, because of just that, they are more skilled.
What things keep boiling down to, is you assume there is no skill involved in the game, because you prefer to not think of it in a skillful way, or a strategic way, but more of a "lets go have fun and mess around way" which is a perfectly legit way to play a game, most people play their video games that way;however, assuming that just because you play a game a certain way, that no one else can play it a different way, is just a little bit egotistical :P
Anyways, if you want me to clear up any more of my previous post, I can, or if you want to just let things go, thats cool too. But no offense, from my part of the argument, it is like trying to explain science to the Amish
Hey hey hold on a sec it was you that opened the "assumption bag" i simply took it one step further and i could continue even further but to be honest i'm starting to feel a bit worried that this thread will blow out of proportion (i mean just take a look at the size of it, it's the Godzilla of threads!!!) . Besides i'm leaving tomorrow and i won't be having the time nor the opportunity to dabble with internet and have this looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong discussions with you that much until about the 10th Jan next year (give or take) if you want to resume this discussion then you know where to find me...Untill then 2 things, 1st. If you want to call "clicking the mouse button sitting on your ass strocking a keyboard" a skill and it raises with every click feel free to do so that is your opinion and you're entitled to it as am i entitled in my own which just happens to be on the other side of the fence. Much like Darkfall (nice way to get back on topic huh?) only time will tell who is right and who is wrong, for Darkfall it's Jan 22nd for our discussion we might not even be alive by then (which kinda bites cause i really want to find out). 2nd. Have a nice holiday and a happy new year
Yes they are both games but only one of them has 1)a world championship 2)a world champion 3) can look good in your CV 4)exists in both RL and VL 5) has professionals (people that make money playing it) at it. Besides chess isn't a game of speed and accuracy it's a game of patience and yes predicting your opponents next move,personally i get a headache after only an hour of playing chess. I hope Darkfall will be the same. I hope not, getting a headache after an hour of playing doesn't sound too appealing to me
Clearly you have a problem with playing video games (which makes me wonder why you are on MMORPG.Com, but I digress)
i wonder how you ended up with this conclusion but for the sake of conversation i shall accept it for now
Think about what you are saying, before you type it please.
Right back at you
1) Many Video Games have world championships (I was almost flown to Korea 2 years ago to participate in a World Championship for a FPS video game, so your wrong on the first one)
Yeah i just found out about this one and i am a bit shocked honestly
2) If there are world championships (and there are) then there are also victors, who then become the world champions, so you are wrong on the second one too (I know the people who won the WC for that game, I hate them for going instead of me -.- lol)
Watch my answer above
3) Dunno what a CV is, might wanna clarify on your acronyms :P
You're either to young to know what a CV is or too rich anyone applying for a job needs one 'Curriculum Vitae' search it up in a dictionary
4) That statement is just ignorant, I mean seriously, saying that it doesn't take skill because there aren't trolls and goblins running around in real life for you to kill is just pathetic.
Care to explain to me how exactly is pressing the mouse button really fast while strafing is a skill??
5) There are tons of profesionals, someone posted about Fatality, he is a profesional gamer, and there are profesional gaming teams, who are on TV (and yea, there are shows about people playing Dead or Alive, and Counter strike/various other games) and teams get paid for winning, especially when they win the championship of their league/whatever, so you are WRONG AGAIN.
Now see i found out just a few minutes ago and i still lol at this term professional gamer. Games are supposed to be fun first the instant that 'professionalism' is added the fun factor goes right out the window for me cause soon after we have people running around flaunting their ' game achievements' and 'uber elite status' demanding,some times, recognition for things that nobody but them could possibly care
6) You state that the reason why chess takes skill, is because it doesn't use speed or accuracy, and those are key parts to what "skill" means, the ability to out manuever, out perform, and out think everyone else. Chess doesn't rely solely on quickness, true, but it is a part, why else would the championship chess leagues require you to use a clock and follow strict time requirements (meaning you have to be quick, you cant just sit for 5 hours and think).
Ok i'll give you that one i wasn't talking about pro league chess i was talking about the commonly know features of the game worldwide and quickness isn't one of them but nontheless it is a chess feature
You seam to have a TOTAL bias against people who play video games, thinking that games (in general) don't take skill, because it isn't something that you can repeat in real life (IE slaying dragons etc), but games use dexterity (the ability to out click / out manuever your oponents), accuracy (the ability to not only move your mouse quickly, but to move them to the right place), and plenty of ingenuity (the ability to think quickly on your feet [or butt as the case may be] and be able to do complexe rationalities while on the move, to be able to determine what you should do, how, and when. Basically, the ability to out think your opponent).
If the aforementioned items are not what determine "Skill" for you, I suggest you go and look it up in the dictionary. Or maybe go see a theropist.
If i'm biased against people that play games then i'm biased towards myself too because i am a gamer myself which in turn makes this some sort of split personallity disorder But i guess that's just your opinion i'm only biased as far as people like you are concerned, that's the sort of people that take the whole gaming thing a bit to seriously ( talking about skills and 'out clicking'[WTF does that even mean] their opponent)and not so on it's fun side.
Therapist???Nah, doesn't work too expensive. I prefer my local bar that has one of those bartenders that know how to listen (now that's an actual skill) and who knows maybe i'll get lucky enough and find a chick that's drunk enough to come home with me
First off, I am from the USA, so we call it a Resume (and yes I have one), second off, you can infact put gaming achievements on certain resumes, for instance if you were trying to get into the gaming industry, such as Quality Assurance or Design, if you won a world championship at First Person Shooters, they would be someone inclined to listen to your point of view on how to make a good First Person Shooter, or equipment to go along with said games (such as Infinity with his brand of Sound Cards and Head Sets).
Now would I put that I had a level 80 Mage on my resume to Kinkos, probably not, that would get you laughed out the door. (and no I dont play wow).
Resume?? Really i thought you didn't like the French over there JK ! Strangely enough i don't have any other objections with this paragraph.
And why do I think you dislike gamers? Because you mock gaming in general, you degenerate it down to just "point and click", and to a certain degree it is, for those who are less inclined to know better (you). I play first person shooters mainly, I am talking about America's Army, Battlefield, Call of Duty, and the like, if you go into one of
explain science to the Amish
Hey hey hold on a sec it was you that opened the "assumption bag" i simply took it one step further and i could continue even further but to be honest i'm starting to feel a bit worried that this thread will blow out of proportion (i mean just take a look at the size of it, it's the Godzilla of threads!!!) . Besides i'm leaving tomorrow and i won't be having the time nor the opportunity to dabble with internet and have this looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong discussions with you that much until about the 10th Jan next year (give or take) if you want to resume this discussion then you know where to find me...Untill then 2 things, 1st. If you want to call "clicking the mouse button sitting on your ass strocking a keyboard" a skill and it raises with every click feel free to do so that is your opinion and you're entitled to it as am i entitled in my own which just happens to be on the other side of the fence. Much like Darkfall (nice way to get back on topic huh?) only time will tell who is right and who is wrong, for Darkfall it's Jan 22nd for our discussion we might not even be alive by then (which kinda bites cause i really want to find out). 2nd. Have a nice holiday and a happy new year
It's apparent that part 6 of Noobs really clarifies how 'exactly' the ruleset of DF will be the same as UO was before Trammel. Her comments about going rogue (grey in UO).
The fact is, that UO was dying pretty rapidly up until they announced Trammel. Let me give you some reasons why players quit under this kind of system.
The only problem I have with you is you make some awfully authoritative sounding definite statements about universal player mental states and behavoirs. People will quit when they lose. People will quit when they lose all their items. Etc.
On the other hand, you do bring up legitimate concerns which would be important to the long term health and stability of any game, like keeping lids on exploits, newbie "protection".
1. Exploits - Dying to players who exploit in other games is annoying.. dying to exploiters and losing all your stuff will make you completely stop playing until the exploit is fixed. How fast do 'exploits' spread? Once someone learns it, they will pass it onto their guild and friends. How fast do most games take to fix an exploit? A few weeks to acknowledge it, another 2 weeks to fix it? UO had a bunch of real exploits (spamming chat to get people to lag) and they also had 'tricks'. Just like in UO.. players will learn how to get you to go rogue/grey so they can get you killed. Honest players will just stop playing, everyone else will learn to use the exploit.
How many truly game breaking exploits have you been killed by, in a modern MMO? I'm not talking about minor tricks like grey-flagging; I'm talking about things like Corrupted Blood.
Let's use WoW as an example. Barring Corrupted Blood, which was truly major enough to warrant research from the CDC; I can think of a whopping one "big" exploit for killing people: Felhound Geddon bombs in the AH, which Blizzard hotfixed like a week after the incident.
If WoW was a full loot PvP game, I can count on one hand "major exploits" that could've threatened game stability.
It's true, exploit control is highly important, but that sits squarely in the realm of "not releasing a buggy game". The PvP aspect is a red herring; the real problem lies in the exploits themselves. Release a mostly-bug-free game (possible, see WoW), and you never have the problem. Release a horrendously bug infested game, and you'll fail, PvP or no.
2. Lag/Crashes - Same as above. If you have lag spikes at all, will you really play that day? In other games, death isn't that big of a deal, so you don't mind getting killed a few extra times because your connection is bad.
As often as people blame "lag spikes!" on their deaths, how many times have you truly had a "laggy" connection? If people are downloading bittorrents and your ping goes to 500, you log off and don't play until they're done (or you kick them off). You don't quit the game.
3. Brit graveyard - To those that didn't play UO, I'll explain this Brit graveyard was typically the first area where new players would 'wander' outside of town. It was right outside of the biggest town, and it had easy monsters to kill. Because of this, it was often the place where Murderers hung out. In UO, new players were often essentially trapped in town. Yes, if you knew people before you started playing, they could help you.. but you basically had to know them BEFORE you started playing. Someone who just bought the box, logged in and started playing, probably spent their first month rarely getting out of town. This is the exact reason UO introduced Trammel. Players weren't renewing after their free month, and they were citing 'ganking' as the reason. The same thing will happen in Darkfall. Anti-social players will camp the area where new players first step into the 'world' and gank them.
This is a valid concern. No place should be safe, but new players need to be given the opportunity to learn how to play the game.
We don't know what precautions the developers have taken to counteract this, or if they will be sufficient. We know that the immediately starting newbie area is defended by extremely unrealistically tough guards, versus the roughly player-strength guards found everywhere else. We know the world is very large, with plenty of space to go "off the grid" or "off the path" if you wish.
4. Don't come late to the party - This kind of goes with #3. But basically what happens is if you are a month or two late starting the game, you will be getting ganked all the time by players that are more powerful than you and they will block your progress. The first players who got through 'brit graveyard' were free to advance their skills pretty freely, but anyone who started late, always had more powerful characters waiting for them. This was the reason that some players 'loved' old UO.. because they were out there early. I was lucky when I played UO, i started at launch. But I had enough friends who started late and I 'experienced' what they did. New players won't renew
Re: "getting ganked all the time by players... blocking your progress" implies that there is linear progression here.
Did you know large groups of high level players could endlessly corpse camp you in WoW, and you have no recourse? I say the same scenario in WoW would be even worse because:
- WoW is linear; you're a lot more limited to where you can go and when
- WoW is a lot more level based; you have zero chance of fighting back, and the people in your zone combined have zero chance of fighting back either. In Darkfall, even newbies have a chance against vets, and there are no "zones" with "level requirements", so it's possible to find friendly veterans in relative geographic proximity to newbies. How often do level 70's hang out in Ashenvale?
- WoW has corpse rezzing. Darkfall has bindpoint rezzing. Assuming they have some kind of bind protection plan in place (so far, we know they have temporary invulnerability after resurrection), you could be anywhere, and your killer has little hope of finding you to camp you.
5. Class/skill balance - Class balance is extremely hard to do. Class balance in PvP is almost impossible. How much fun is it going to be to play if you aren't the OP class? If because of skill/class balance you are losing your gear all the time. In every game, players cry about class balance.. in a game where it means you lose your gear..they will do more than cry, they will quit, or they will reroll to the OP class.
There are no classes. If you're talking about OP skill combinations or builds, then the advantage of a skill-based system is everyone can choose the OP skills without having to reroll. It also means the developers have a much easier time of nerfing OP skills without nerfing an entire class and alienating a large group of players who now have gimp classes.
How do you buff diverse pet viability without buffing already OP warlocks? How do you nerf stunlocks without nerfing otherwise weak rogues? How do you nerf OP burst damage trinkets without nerfing otherwise weak mages lacking in spell damage itemization? These are all thorny questions Blizzard has had to tiptoe on eggshells with over the years.
They eventually did address these, but it took them months at a time to do major "class overhauls", because they had to painstakingly examine interactions between all the different abilities within a class, between classes, and classes against each other.
This is much less of a concern when you have no classes with integral unique abilities at their core.
6. Bring your friends - full-loss death means that players will group up and wander in bands. This sounds cool in theory, but what happens if you log in and you don't have many friends on? And again, what about new players?
Go out into the woods alone, and try to solo PK? It was possible (albeit impopular) in UO, and UO was far more cramped than Darkfall will be.
Go out into the woods alone, and try to solo fish/mine/whatever? It was possible in UO, most people didn't even try.
Stay close to town and craft, trade, shop, and do whatever you can while staying in a relatively safe location?
This was all possible in UO. A lucky or skilled few could do it and never die. A much larger number would die occasionally, but still found it worth the time. I'll bet most of the people who complained about being "restricted to towns" were those who found even one death unacceptable, regardless of how the the reward:loss ratio ended up working out.
And the UO world was tiny.
UO pre-trammel showed exactly what is going to happen with DF.
1. New players won't last the first month
2. Exploits will be rampent and spread quickly. 'tricking' players into going grey will be considered a tactic. Players who are successful aren't the ones who use their skills the best, they will be the ones who learn to game the game.
3. The Flavor-of-the-month class will be the only one played. UO had a phase (about 6 months) where everyone was a mage who carried a polearm.
4. Gear grinding - You'll have to have many sets of gear stored, or else when you die with your group, you will get left behind as you try to get more gear.
1. If new players are as locationally vulnerable as they were in UO, then yes. This has everything to do with the specific precautions the devs are taking in regards to starter areas and quests. If UO didn't have it, that's UO's fault; it's hardly inherent to the concept of FFA full loot.
2. How many game breaking PvP exploits would WoW have had IF it were a full loot game? Yeah, that's what I thought. I'm more worried about hacks than exploits, which you forgot to mention. That's a legitimate concern too.
3. The patching cycle tends to be a lot faster in contemporary games, compared to the first original MMOs. The skill balancing process is also inherently simpler and faster in a non-class based game. So even if there are hally mages, 1) there are 10 times the number of skills in DF than UO, which means a more diverse pool to derive counters from, or 2) if hally mages are that OP that nothing can realistically counter them, they can be swiftly hit with the nerf bat without massive collateral damage to large portions of the game.
4. This is intended. The progressive acquisition of gear is not the cornerstone of this game like it is in many contemporary MMOs. Gear is meant to be a tool, a means to an end, and I'm guessing the devs would like players to realize this as early as possible. Also the degradation and loss of gear is a part of the dynamic economy, which the game is supposed to feature. EVE has gear loss too, and it arguably has the best, deepest, and most extensive economy of any game out there.
There is a reason why UO made Trammel, they were losing a ton of players because of the ruleset.
This is simply not true, as has been proven numerous times by people earlier, so I won't repeat it.
If you have a pre-built guild and you plan on starting on day 1 things will seem fine for a few weeks... but the UO ruleset just is not viable for a longterm game
Correction: it wasn't the UO ruleset (FFA, full loot PVP) that caused these concerns of yours. It was specific game design elements (extensiveness of the starter zones, protection under the learning curve, graveyard and town placement) that caused these problems, not the basic idea of FFA full loot.
Also, I'll mention:
It's been brought up earlier, but what other FFA full loot games "failed"?
AC: Darktide was always highly populated during AC's heyday. AC itself was considered, making a note here, huge success. Alongside UO and EQ, it was one of the big three of the 90's. The game died a natural death; it was not a failure.
Shadowbane grabbed over 50k subs, so it was hardly a flop... at launch anyway. You can never definitively pin the blame on full loot PvP, when you also have occurences like cities being teleported into the ocean with hacked admin powers.
EVE Online has FFA full loot, and it's still going strong today with over 200k subs.
So, what other mainstream full loot FFA games have supposedly "failed" due to their rules? Cause the only 3 I can think of are listed up there, and only one of them can be considered a "failure", more for bugs and hacks than anything else.
EVE is not fully open pvp. You are safe in high sec space. Thats the way most people want it. They want areas that are safe, where you can gather resources, and kill mobs.
They don't want a game where 50 people are standing outside all the exits to town, and kill you the second you leave the city
1. Go load up a bunch of T2 BPOs in your hold and fly around Jita yelling "HEY LOOK AT ME!" and see how long you last. There is no truely safe place in EVE outside a space station, only safe(r).
2. Nice job speaking for everybody as to what they want, especially low-sec based corps and pirates. Or better yet, 0.0 alliances who exist virtually independantly of high-sec empire space. Oh wait.
None of this is inherent problem with the concept of full loot PvP, but a question of where on the sliding scale your safe(r) zones land.
UO had "guarded" areas too; just tiny and restricted ones compared to EVE.
The question then is how large and extensives do you make your safe(r) zone, which is up to individual games to decide.
Ideally, the concept of a "safer" zone is as a newbie learning curve area, which is perhaps its most valuable purpose to EVE.
If you removed high-sec from EVE, it would undoubtedly hurt the game, but would not kill it outright. Low-sec corps and pirates would not only continue to exist, but move in to fill the void. 0.0 alliances wouldn't even notice. The true detriment of losing highsec would be the inhospitability to new players, with long term consequences.
Clearly, a sizable portion, if not the majority, of current EVE players would not quit in horror at the loss of highsec. It's the newbies (and the long term potential) of the game, that would suffer.
- WoW is a lot more level based; you have zero chance of fighting back, and the people in your zone combined have zero chance of fighting back either. In Darkfall, even newbies have a chance against vets, and there are no "zones" with "level requirements", so it's possible to find friendly veterans in relative geographic proximity to newbies. How often do level 70's hang out in Ashenvale?
Not directed to you Cortanya.
Looks to me, for this comment and a lot others on this and other threads, people have the idea that a skill based system implies a skill based game.
A skill based game is a FPS for example. There, a newbie player with a gun can kill someone using a machine gun and a flack jacket if he is better/faster at aiming/dodging/using cover.
On a skill based system game if the newbie has Fighting at 15 and someone with Fighting at 100 attacks him, he is dead. No human skill is going to save him, just like if a level 50 attacks a level 10 on a level based mmorpg.
Call it levels or call it skill % the principle is the same: The big fish will eat alive the small one. Always.
The only advantage (for gameplay) is that you can't see how strong your oponent is, and what skills he will be using, until you are engaged. This will leave the Bully Ganker type out of the equation (Until he maxes skills grinding pve, of course).
Said that:
With some things I agree with the OP, some not and others I am on the grey because only after launch we will see what happens.One of the ones I have mixed feelings is the ganking part.
For one I think it will be better than UO for the simple fact that the game is 3D and don't have Stealth. Those two missing things make it easier to avoid PKs with a bit of surrounding awareness and using whatever is there (Trees, bushes, rocks etc...) to hide. No more guys suddenly showing at the corner of the screen to cast a Nox something spell and flee again or people appearing out of nowhere behind you.
But I think it can become worse due the evolution of mmorpg comunities since pre-wow to post-wow "era". If back then we had 1/100 PKs/gankers/griefers in UO now I bet we will have 20-25/100 in Darkfall (numbers out of my mind). Rotten apples (angry kids, inmature adults, ninja looters and the rest of anoying people we find in mmorpgs) back then were the exception, now are a noticiable % of the mmorpg population.
This is also the exact same ruleset that Lineage II uses. While the game may be an Asian grindfest it was the #1 game for a short while before WoW released. Before that the #1 game was lineage I, another game that used this exact 1 hit flagging system. The decline of both of these games has to do more with the WoW era of MMO gaming and nothing to do with the rulesets they used.
Errr... actually not exactly, or entirely true.
What hurt L2's population early on was the rampant ganking of lowbies that had just started the game when NC had a very "hands off" approach to PvP in the game.
Camping exits of starting towns, mob training people, tricking them into flagging and/or going red, etc... all were considered fair game by NC at the beginning.
After a while, the high level players realized they weren't gaining many new players and actually asked the gankers to leave new players be and let them get some footing in the game as it was becoming top-heavy. I clearly remember this happening because it was all around C3, which is when I came back.
The gankers didn't stop and so players took it into their own hands and would ask new players who were being ganked to let them know on the forums of who it was, when and where.. and they would actually go "red hunting" to help new players actually play the game.
Some time after that, NC Soft noticed the trend and started easing up on the "open-ness" of the PvP, making it more difficult for would-be gankers to do their thing.
Also, as players got sick of losing gear that took a *long* time to acquire (a month or more at times) because they died, that was driving some away as well. NC responded to this by reducing the circumstances under which gear could be dropped.
What finally started driving people away was the rampant botting and NC Soft's utter and complete lack of serious action against it. To this day, they will do only a token banning every few months, and then turn away and ignore it again. That's another major reason why people have left.
In all my time playing L2, I've known only 5 people who left L2 to go to WoW. Others have tried it and came back, others couldn't be bothered and think WoW's PvP is way too watered down to ever enjoy it. Of course, there are others who I'm sure did leave to go to WoW. But if that were really the main reason, one would think it would be more prevalent.
To sum it up.. on Vent the other night, I was chatting wth a few people and the topic of other PvP MMOs came up. Someone mentioned WoW and the response was basically laughter, one person saying "I meant *real* PvP MMOs".
These two games use this same PvP ruleset minus the full loot and were staggeringly popular for years before they were superceded by the casual playstyle of the modern MMO gamer. Lineage II still has close to a million paying subscribers as we speak so can hardly be called a dead game. Also in resent expansions they have added elements to the game to lessen the grind so subscriptions are on the rise again but they haven't changed the PvP ruleset since day one.
Again... they haven't changed the core ruleset.. but that's not the whole picture. As of now you can only drop items if you're killed while red and you have 5 or more PKs. This, compared to how it used to be where anyone could drop gear whether they were red or not, whether a mob or another player killed you.
So basically, only the most determined PK'ers - or those who fail to do a sin-eater quest regularly - have anything to worry about.
The core ruleset hasn't changed... but the penalties have been *drastically* reduced... and it's the penalty of dropping really expensive gear that hurt the most in L2.
From what I've seen/read/heard, DF is basically going to be how L2 was for a short time after launch, before NC started to tone it down.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
- WoW is a lot more level based; you have zero chance of fighting back, and the people in your zone combined have zero chance of fighting back either. In Darkfall, even newbies have a chance against vets, and there are no "zones" with "level requirements", so it's possible to find friendly veterans in relative geographic proximity to newbies. How often do level 70's hang out in Ashenvale?
Not directed to you Cortanya.
Looks to me, for this comment and a lot others on this and other threads, people have the idea that a skill based system implies a skill based game.
A skill based game is a FPS for example. There, a newbie player with a gun can kill someone using a machine gun and a flack jacket if he is better/faster at aiming/dodging/using cover.
On a skill based system game if the newbie has Fighting at 15 and someone with Fighting at 100 attacks him, he is dead. No human skill is going to save him, just like if a level 50 attacks a level 10 on a level based mmorpg.
Call it levels or call it skill % the principle is the same: The big fish will eat alive the small one. Always.
The only advantage (for gameplay) is that you can't see how strong your oponent is, and what skills he will be using, until you are engaged. This will leave the Bully Ganker type out of the equation (Until he maxes skills grinding pve, of course).
Said that:
With some things I agree with the OP, some not and others I am on the grey because only after launch we will see what happens.One of the ones I have mixed feelings is the ganking part.
For one I think it will be better than UO for the simple fact that the game is 3D and don't have Stealth. Those two missing things make it easier to avoid PKs with a bit of surrounding awareness and using whatever is there (Trees, bushes, rocks etc...) to hide. No more guys suddenly showing at the corner of the screen to cast a Nox something spell and flee again or people appearing out of nowhere behind you.
But I think it can become worse due the evolution of mmorpg comunities since pre-wow to post-wow "era". If back then we had 1/100 PKs/gankers/griefers in UO now I bet we will have 20-25/100 in Darkfall (numbers out of my mind). Rotten apples (angry kids, inmature adults, ninja looters and the rest of anoying people we find in mmorpgs) back then were the exception, now are a noticiable % of the mmorpg population.
bah you can get 100 skill in swords in a week, don't complain if you have 1 in sword. there was a dev quote that said 3noobs=1 vet (not including player skill) so that gives you an idea of how powerful 1 sword is compared to having 100 in swords. And again, you are a super noob if you don't have 100 in swords.
wow , when i read the topic name i thought the op meant the opposite , "why after trammel uo failed".
UO was a great game , a great pvp game that we played for 3-4 years , wich involved skills not gear , but good'ol EA turened into an online diablo without PvP .
Imagine you buy a game that you enjoy let's say an FPS , you enjoy playing it for 3 months and than allofasudden you start the game and it becomes a raceing sim.
that is how most of the uo community felt when trammel got introduced.
DF will not fail because it's the sandbox uo style game with FFA PvP and looting that most of us have been waiting for, it's not going to fail because you might not like what it has to offer, go play one of the thousand other games that don't involve looting and have huge PvE content.
Originally posted by PaPsn DF will not fail because it's the sandbox uo style game with FFA PvP and looting that most of us have been waiting for, it's not going to fail because you might not like what it has to offer, go play one of the thousand other games that don't involve looting and have huge PvE content.
Thing is... It's not the game itself that necessarily fails. It's some of the people playing that drag it down.
The fans of a wide open PvP system who play to experience the game aren't the ones who ruin it. They're busy enjoying the game for all that you mentioned.
It's the relative few who abuse that "freedom" to gank, harass and ultimately chase new players out of the game that do.
If a game starts losing players because some people are abusing some open aspect of it, you better believe they're going to make changes. You may have a game you want to play, but they have a business they want to keep afloat, and dropping sub numbers do not help.
Might not happen immediately.. it took several months before players in L2 started to see the effects of the lowbie gankers' behavior on the population and stepped up to try and stop it. But if left alone, chances are it will become a problem.
It's happened to at least 2 other MMOs I know of that started with wide-open free-for-all PvP and had to tone it down to stop player leakage. I'm sure it's happened to others. To think that DF will somehow dodge that bullet simply because some want to believe it's "immune" is, in my opinion, naive. A precedent has been set by other MMOs that came before it.
Again... It's not the game system itself that would fail, necessarily. It's a portion of abusive players that ruin it for everyone else.
But... time will tell either way.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Originally posted by PaPsn DF will not fail because it's the sandbox uo style game with FFA PvP and looting that most of us have been waiting for, it's not going to fail because you might not like what it has to offer, go play one of the thousand other games that don't involve looting and have huge PvE content.
Thing is... It's not the game itself that necessarily fails. It's some of the people playing that drag it down.
The fans of a wide open PvP system who play to experience the game aren't the ones who ruin it. They're busy enjoying the game for all that you mentioned.
It's the relative few who abuse that "freedom" to gank, harass and ultimately chase new players out of the game that do.
If a game starts losing players because some people are abusing some open aspect of it, you better believe they're going to make changes. You may have a game you want to play, but they have a business they want to keep afloat, and dropping sub numbers do not help.
Might not happen immediately.. it took several months before players in L2 started to see the effects of the lowbie gankers' behavior on the population and stepped up to try and stop it. But if left alone, chances are it will become a problem.
It's happened to at least 2 other MMOs I know of that started with wide-open free-for-all PvP and had to tone it down to stop player leakage. I'm sure it's happened to others. To think that DF will somehow dodge that bullet simply because some want to believe it's "immune" is, in my opinion, naive. A precedent has been set by other MMOs that came before it.
Again... It's not the game system itself that would fail, necessarily. It's a portion of abusive players that ruin it for everyone else.
But... time will tell either way.
I never played L2, but did it not have a very steep character level and gear curve? IMO such game designs are inappropriate for open PvP for the exact reason you mention. Newbies are cannon fodder. DF's design features a much flatter advancement and gear curve so that newbies are not so easily ganked. Consequently DF to L2 is not a direct comparison but as you say, time will tell.
Originally posted by PaPsn DF will not fail because it's the sandbox uo style game with FFA PvP and looting that most of us have been waiting for, it's not going to fail because you might not like what it has to offer, go play one of the thousand other games that don't involve looting and have huge PvE content.
Thing is... It's not the game itself that necessarily fails. It's some of the people playing that drag it down.
The fans of a wide open PvP system who play to experience the game aren't the ones who ruin it. They're busy enjoying the game for all that you mentioned.
It's the relative few who abuse that "freedom" to gank, harass and ultimately chase new players out of the game that do.
If a game starts losing players because some people are abusing some open aspect of it, you better believe they're going to make changes. You may have a game you want to play, but they have a business they want to keep afloat, and dropping sub numbers do not help.
Might not happen immediately.. it took several months before players in L2 started to see the effects of the lowbie gankers' behavior on the population and stepped up to try and stop it. But if left alone, chances are it will become a problem.
It's happened to at least 2 other MMOs I know of that started with wide-open free-for-all PvP and had to tone it down to stop player leakage. I'm sure it's happened to others. To think that DF will somehow dodge that bullet simply because some want to believe it's "immune" is, in my opinion, naive. A precedent has been set by other MMOs that came before it.
Again... It's not the game system itself that would fail, necessarily. It's a portion of abusive players that ruin it for everyone else.
But... time will tell either way.
I never played L2, but did it not have a very steep character level and gear curve? IMO such game designs are inappropriate for open PvP for the exact reason you mention. Newbies are cannon fodder. DF's design features a much flatter advancement and gear curve so that newbies are not so easily ganked. Consequently DF to L2 is not a direct comparison but as you say, time will tell.
There are a lot of reasons Darkfall might not 'fail'. The whole point of my original post was just to show major issues that other games had. Nobody is in beta right now, so nobody knows if DF has solved a lot of the issues that plagued UO and L2.
Originally posted by PaPsn DF will not fail because it's the sandbox uo style game with FFA PvP and looting that most of us have been waiting for, it's not going to fail because you might not like what it has to offer, go play one of the thousand other games that don't involve looting and have huge PvE content.
Thing is... It's not the game itself that necessarily fails. It's some of the people playing that drag it down.
The fans of a wide open PvP system who play to experience the game aren't the ones who ruin it. They're busy enjoying the game for all that you mentioned.
It's the relative few who abuse that "freedom" to gank, harass and ultimately chase new players out of the game that do.
If a game starts losing players because some people are abusing some open aspect of it, you better believe they're going to make changes. You may have a game you want to play, but they have a business they want to keep afloat, and dropping sub numbers do not help.
Might not happen immediately.. it took several months before players in L2 started to see the effects of the lowbie gankers' behavior on the population and stepped up to try and stop it. But if left alone, chances are it will become a problem.
It's happened to at least 2 other MMOs I know of that started with wide-open free-for-all PvP and had to tone it down to stop player leakage. I'm sure it's happened to others. To think that DF will somehow dodge that bullet simply because some want to believe it's "immune" is, in my opinion, naive. A precedent has been set by other MMOs that came before it.
Again... It's not the game system itself that would fail, necessarily. It's a portion of abusive players that ruin it for everyone else.
But... time will tell either way.
I never played L2, but did it not have a very steep character level and gear curve? IMO such game designs are inappropriate for open PvP for the exact reason you mention. Newbies are cannon fodder. DF's design features a much flatter advancement and gear curve so that newbies are not so easily ganked. Consequently DF to L2 is not a direct comparison but as you say, time will tell.
There are a lot of reasons Darkfall might not 'fail'. The whole point of my original post was just to show major issues that other games had. Nobody is in beta right now, so nobody knows if DF has solved a lot of the issues that plagued UO and L2.
It’s rather safe to say that they have not. In fact, it’s also safe to say that the game is being created by those that WANT such issues. I am sure they are the SAME people making this game, that left after ganking was restricted.
From all the info I have read, they are hell bent on making mistakes of others game, FEATURES in theirs.
Case in point, the "Relative few" are exactly the people they want in the game, look at the forums, looks at the fan videos...this is the community they (Developers) fostered.
The rest of you are about to find out your not as "Hardcore" as you thought.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
There are a lot of reasons Darkfall might not 'fail'. The whole point of my original post was just to show major issues that other games had. Nobody is in beta right now, so nobody knows if DF has solved a lot of the issues that plagued UO and L2.
It’s rather safe to say that they have not. In fact, it’s also safe to say that the game is being created by those that WANT such issues. I am sure they are the SAME people making this game, that left after ganking was restricted.
From all the info I have read, they are hell bent on making mistakes of others game, FEATURES in theirs.
Case in point, the "Relative few" are exactly the people they want in the game, look at the forums, looks at the fan videos...this is the community they (Developers) fostered.
The rest of you are about to find out your not as "Hardcore" as you thought.
There are a lot of reasons Darkfall might not 'fail'. The whole point of my original post was just to show major issues that other games had. Nobody is in beta right now, so nobody knows if DF has solved a lot of the issues that plagued UO and L2.
It’s rather safe to say that they have not. In fact, it’s also safe to say that the game is being created by those that WANT such issues. I am sure they are the SAME people making this game, that left after ganking was restricted.
From all the info I have read, they are hell bent on making mistakes of others game, FEATURES in theirs.
Case in point, the "Relative few" are exactly the people they want in the game, look at the forums, looks at the fan videos...this is the community they (Developers) fostered.
The rest of you are about to find out your not as "Hardcore" as you thought.
Spend much time on your soapbox?
What soapbox would that be?
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Originally posted by PaPsn DF will not fail because it's the sandbox uo style game with FFA PvP and looting that most of us have been waiting for, it's not going to fail because you might not like what it has to offer, go play one of the thousand other games that don't involve looting and have huge PvE content.
Thing is... It's not the game itself that necessarily fails. It's some of the people playing that drag it down.
The fans of a wide open PvP system who play to experience the game aren't the ones who ruin it. They're busy enjoying the game for all that you mentioned.
It's the relative few who abuse that "freedom" to gank, harass and ultimately chase new players out of the game that do.
If a game starts losing players because some people are abusing some open aspect of it, you better believe they're going to make changes. You may have a game you want to play, but they have a business they want to keep afloat, and dropping sub numbers do not help.
Might not happen immediately.. it took several months before players in L2 started to see the effects of the lowbie gankers' behavior on the population and stepped up to try and stop it. But if left alone, chances are it will become a problem.
It's happened to at least 2 other MMOs I know of that started with wide-open free-for-all PvP and had to tone it down to stop player leakage. I'm sure it's happened to others. To think that DF will somehow dodge that bullet simply because some want to believe it's "immune" is, in my opinion, naive. A precedent has been set by other MMOs that came before it.
Again... It's not the game system itself that would fail, necessarily. It's a portion of abusive players that ruin it for everyone else.
But... time will tell either way.
I never played L2, but did it not have a very steep character level and gear curve? IMO such game designs are inappropriate for open PvP for the exact reason you mention. Newbies are cannon fodder. DF's design features a much flatter advancement and gear curve so that newbies are not so easily ganked. Consequently DF to L2 is not a direct comparison but as you say, time will tell.
Sure it had a steep level curve, but it also had around 14 million players worldwide at one point. The level curve is part of the game, people played it in spite of - if not because of - that.
Not in an insulting way... but I can see grasping to still find that "one thing" that must have hurt those other games that DF will fix and make it immune to all those problems.
I understand where it comes from. People who are fans of a certain type of game will never want to believe it could ever happen to "their game".
Same thing happened with WAR. I'd predicted that players would find the fastest/easiest way to race to level cap and was shouted down and told I didn't know what I was talking about. "WAR isn't designed to support that kind of playstyle!" they said. "It won't happen in WAR!", and "Go away troll!" (even though I wasn't trolling; I was, like in this thread, pointing at human behavior, not at a flaw in the game design). Well... guess what happened?
To put a twist on Jeff Goldblum's line in Jurassic Park: "Players.... find a way"
No matter how flat or steep of a leveling curve there is, a player coming along after launch, or even one who doesn't play as "aggressively" as others are still going to fall behind and will become fodder for those who want to prey on them.
Those who want to hang around and gank lowbies don't typically play the game like others.. they'll get a certain distance into it, until they know their prey is no match for them - be it a level or an equivalent - and that's all they need.
The legit players will leave the typical ganker in the dust because, again, the typical ganker type is only looking to abuse it at others' expense. They don't *care* about how far they get, as long as they can sit around and abuse new players all day. That *is* the game to them.
If it has a wide open PvP system, I would bet money, you are going to have gankers.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Originally posted by PaPsn DF will not fail because it's the sandbox uo style game with FFA PvP and looting that most of us have been waiting for, it's not going to fail because you might not like what it has to offer, go play one of the thousand other games that don't involve looting and have huge PvE content.
Thing is... It's not the game itself that necessarily fails. It's some of the people playing that drag it down.
The fans of a wide open PvP system who play to experience the game aren't the ones who ruin it. They're busy enjoying the game for all that you mentioned.
It's the relative few who abuse that "freedom" to gank, harass and ultimately chase new players out of the game that do.
If a game starts losing players because some people are abusing some open aspect of it, you better believe they're going to make changes. You may have a game you want to play, but they have a business they want to keep afloat, and dropping sub numbers do not help.
Might not happen immediately.. it took several months before players in L2 started to see the effects of the lowbie gankers' behavior on the population and stepped up to try and stop it. But if left alone, chances are it will become a problem.
It's happened to at least 2 other MMOs I know of that started with wide-open free-for-all PvP and had to tone it down to stop player leakage. I'm sure it's happened to others. To think that DF will somehow dodge that bullet simply because some want to believe it's "immune" is, in my opinion, naive. A precedent has been set by other MMOs that came before it.
Again... It's not the game system itself that would fail, necessarily. It's a portion of abusive players that ruin it for everyone else.
But... time will tell either way.
I never played L2, but did it not have a very steep character level and gear curve? IMO such game designs are inappropriate for open PvP for the exact reason you mention. Newbies are cannon fodder. DF's design features a much flatter advancement and gear curve so that newbies are not so easily ganked. Consequently DF to L2 is not a direct comparison but as you say, time will tell.
There are a lot of reasons Darkfall might not 'fail'. The whole point of my original post was just to show major issues that other games had. Nobody is in beta right now, so nobody knows if DF has solved a lot of the issues that plagued UO and L2.
IMO, the only way DF will be a mainstream success is if some gear isn't dropable, not all, just some. For instance someone finds one of the rarest swords in the game, by luck and through group effort and farming for 10+ hrs. People find out that the person who won the sword on the roll sucks at PvP, so 5 people team up to kill him for it and succeed because its 1v5. Well there goes 10hrs wasted, all the group effort (probably guild), and then the weapon repeatably swiches hands from that point forward. If the item is of rare quality, but farmable, I think it should be soulbound when equiped, or at least be protected in some other meaningful way. I think Runescape's old system, and I almost vomited when I said that, was actually good: 3 of hte "best items" in your inventory are protected unless you started combat, is a great soultion to this obvious issue. Then again, they could just make items less rare as well.
IMO, the only way DF will be a mainstream success is if some gear isn't dropable, not all, just some. For instance someone finds one of the rarest swords in the game, by luck and through group effort and farming for 10+ hrs. People find out that the person who won the sword on the roll sucks at PvP, so 5 people team up to kill him for it and succeed because its 1v5. Well there goes 10hrs wasted, all the group effort (probably guild), and then the weapon repeatably swiches hands from that point forward. If the item is of rare quality, but farmable, I think it should be soulbound when equiped, or at least be protected in some other meaningful way. I think Runescape's old system, and I almost vomited when I said that, was actually good: 3 of hte "best items" in your inventory are protected unless you started combat, is a great soultion to this obvious issue. Then again, they could just make items less rare as well.
Your still thinking WOW or L2 terms. there isnt gonna be grinding 10 hours for UBER sword.
IMO, the only way DF will be a mainstream success is if some gear isn't dropable, not all, just some. For instance someone finds one of the rarest swords in the game, by luck and through group effort and farming for 10+ hrs. People find out that the person who won the sword on the roll sucks at PvP, so 5 people team up to kill him for it and succeed because its 1v5. Well there goes 10hrs wasted, all the group effort (probably guild), and then the weapon repeatably swiches hands from that point forward. If the item is of rare quality, but farmable, I think it should be soulbound when equiped, or at least be protected in some other meaningful way. I think Runescape's old system, and I almost vomited when I said that, was actually good: 3 of hte "best items" in your inventory are protected unless you started combat, is a great soultion to this obvious issue. Then again, they could just make items less rare as well.
Your still thinking WOW or L2 terms. there isnt gonna be grinding 10 hours for UBER sword.
In a recent article, they said there would be very rare, powerful items.
IMO, the only way DF will be a mainstream success is if some gear isn't dropable, not all, just some. For instance someone finds one of the rarest swords in the game, by luck and through group effort and farming for 10+ hrs. People find out that the person who won the sword on the roll sucks at PvP, so 5 people team up to kill him for it and succeed because its 1v5. Well there goes 10hrs wasted, all the group effort (probably guild), and then the weapon repeatably swiches hands from that point forward. If the item is of rare quality, but farmable, I think it should be soulbound when equiped, or at least be protected in some other meaningful way. I think Runescape's old system, and I almost vomited when I said that, was actually good: 3 of hte "best items" in your inventory are protected unless you started combat, is a great soultion to this obvious issue. Then again, they could just make items less rare as well.
Your still thinking WOW or L2 terms. there isnt gonna be grinding 10 hours for UBER sword.
If it didn't have "uber" items then there wouldn't be any point to loot system, and for items to be worth their uberness they should, nay need, to take time to aquire. And face it, for a game to stay successful (100k+) it has to have attractive PvE as well.
IMO, the only way DF will be a mainstream success is if some gear isn't dropable, not all, just some. For instance someone finds one of the rarest swords in the game, by luck and through group effort and farming for 10+ hrs. People find out that the person who won the sword on the roll sucks at PvP, so 5 people team up to kill him for it and succeed because its 1v5. Well there goes 10hrs wasted, all the group effort (probably guild), and then the weapon repeatably swiches hands from that point forward. If the item is of rare quality, but farmable, I think it should be soulbound when equiped, or at least be protected in some other meaningful way. I think Runescape's old system, and I almost vomited when I said that, was actually good: 3 of hte "best items" in your inventory are protected unless you started combat, is a great soultion to this obvious issue. Then again, they could just make items less rare as well.
Your still thinking WOW or L2 terms. there isnt gonna be grinding 10 hours for UBER sword.
If it didn't have "uber" items then there wouldn't be any point to loot system, and for items to be worth their uberness they should, nay need, to take time to aquire. And face it, for a game to stay successful (100k+) it has to have attractive PvE as well.
There will be better weapons then others. Higher qualities. GM made weaponry (UO terms) wont be cheap... but they also wotn be omg uberness no skill needed to kill other guy with it. So yes it will be very nice to loot one
I never played L2, but did it not have a very steep character level and gear curve? IMO such game designs are inappropriate for open PvP for the exact reason you mention. Newbies are cannon fodder. DF's design features a much flatter advancement and gear curve so that newbies are not so easily ganked. Consequently DF to L2 is not a direct comparison but as you say, time will tell.
Sure it had a steep level curve, but it also had around 14 million players worldwide at one point. The level curve is part of the game, people played it in spite of - if not because of - that.
Not in an insulting way... but I can see grasping to still find that "one thing" that must have hurt those other games that DF will fix and make it immune to all those problems.
I understand where it comes from. People who are fans of a certain type of game will never want to believe it could ever happen to "their game".
Same thing happened with WAR. I'd predicted that players would find the fastest/easiest way to race to level cap and was shouted down and told I didn't know what I was talking about. "WAR isn't designed to support that kind of playstyle!" they said. "It won't happen in WAR!", and "Go away troll!" (even though I wasn't trolling; I was, like in this thread, pointing at human behavior, not at a flaw in the game design). Well... guess what happened?
To put a twist on Jeff Goldblum's line in Jurassic Park: "Players.... find a way"
No matter how flat or steep of a leveling curve there is, a player coming along after launch, or even one who doesn't play as "aggressively" as others are still going to fall behind and will become fodder for those who want to prey on them.
Those who want to hang around and gank lowbies don't typically play the game like others.. they'll get a certain distance into it, until they know their prey is no match for them - be it a level or an equivalent - and that's all they need.
The legit players will leave the typical ganker in the dust because, again, the typical ganker type is only looking to abuse it at others' expense. They don't *care* about how far they get, as long as they can sit around and abuse new players all day. That *is* the game to them.
If it has a wide open PvP system, I would bet money, you are going to have gankers.
I don't feel that I am grasping to any one thing except for the idea that the relative success of an MMO, or any game for that matter, cannot be simply narrowed down to the inclusion/exclusion of one single feature. Posters here have been repeating predictions that DF will fail because it has open PvP and/or full loot.
Will there be gankers in DF? I would also bet on it.
Will there be ganking in DF equivalent to in WoW where a single max level toon takes out an entire town in a newbie zone? Not likely.
Is getting killed in DF going to suck more than getting killed in WoW? Probably. Although I am more accepting of losing a fight against someone against whom I actually stood a chance as opposed to getting one shotted by someone 20 levels higher than me. However, designs with materialistic and gratuitous gameplay like WoW provide little incentive to form tight-knit player communities. On the other hand, adversity brings people together to tackle challenges that cannot be accomplished individually. I fully intend to be part of a clan in DF so that when needed I can rely on guildies to help resupply and they can rely on me.
I disagree about the 'steepness' of the leveling curve not mattering. If game design encourages game play AT the 'level cap' there is no need to continuously raise it (expansions) to keep players grinding. Consequently, new players, while initially at a disadvantage, have the opportunity to catch up. Ultra-casual players in games like WoW or say, L2, never play enough to be on a level playing field with power gamers.
Will casual players and power gamers ever be exactly equal? No. Not in any game. Even in fps games like Quake or UT, experience brings increased skill which means an advantage despite each player starting each match with the same weapon and stats. If that is a deal breaker for someone then they need a reality check on the way competition in life works.
Comments
You
you just keep making excuses every time an open pvp game fails. Its getting really old. And when Darkfall fails you will make more excuses. Give it up already
What is getting old is your pointless trolling. In addition to your complete lack of logical reasoning and critical thinking skills you apparently have no reading comprehension skills either. Where in my posts did I once say that Darkfall is going to succeed? It may or it may not. In that context, I have nothing to give up. So sorry.
I am simply (if anything is simple for you) highlighting that your arguments contain faulty reasoning between cause and effect of MMO 'failure' (you have not even defined what failure is).
Clearly you have a problem with playing video games (which makes me wonder why you are on MMORPG.Com, but I digress)
i wonder how you ended up with this conclusion but for the sake of conversation i shall accept it for now
Think about what you are saying, before you type it please.
Right back at you
1) Many Video Games have world championships (I was almost flown to Korea 2 years ago to participate in a World Championship for a FPS video game, so your wrong on the first one)
Yeah i just found out about this one and i am a bit shocked honestly
2) If there are world championships (and there are) then there are also victors, who then become the world champions, so you are wrong on the second one too (I know the people who won the WC for that game, I hate them for going instead of me -.- lol)
Watch my answer above
3) Dunno what a CV is, might wanna clarify on your acronyms :P
You're either to young to know what a CV is or too rich anyone applying for a job needs one 'Curriculum Vitae' search it up in a dictionary
4) That statement is just ignorant, I mean seriously, saying that it doesn't take skill because there aren't trolls and goblins running around in real life for you to kill is just pathetic.
Care to explain to me how exactly is pressing the mouse button really fast while strafing is a skill??
5) There are tons of profesionals, someone posted about Fatality, he is a profesional gamer, and there are profesional gaming teams, who are on TV (and yea, there are shows about people playing Dead or Alive, and Counter strike/various other games) and teams get paid for winning, especially when they win the championship of their league/whatever, so you are WRONG AGAIN.
Now see i found out just a few minutes ago and i still lol at this term professional gamer. Games are supposed to be fun first the instant that 'professionalism' is added the fun factor goes right out the window for me cause soon after we have people running around flaunting their ' game achievements' and 'uber elite status' demanding,some times, recognition for things that nobody but them could possibly care
6) You state that the reason why chess takes skill, is because it doesn't use speed or accuracy, and those are key parts to what "skill" means, the ability to out manuever, out perform, and out think everyone else. Chess doesn't rely solely on quickness, true, but it is a part, why else would the championship chess leagues require you to use a clock and follow strict time requirements (meaning you have to be quick, you cant just sit for 5 hours and think).
Ok i'll give you that one i wasn't talking about pro league chess i was talking about the commonly know features of the game worldwide and quickness isn't one of them but nontheless it is a chess feature
You seam to have a TOTAL bias against people who play video games, thinking that games (in general) don't take skill, because it isn't something that you can repeat in real life (IE slaying dragons etc), but games use dexterity (the ability to out click / out manuever your oponents), accuracy (the ability to not only move your mouse quickly, but to move them to the right place), and plenty of ingenuity (the ability to think quickly on your feet [or butt as the case may be] and be able to do complexe rationalities while on the move, to be able to determine what you should do, how, and when. Basically, the ability to out think your opponent).
If the aforementioned items are not what determine "Skill" for you, I suggest you go and look it up in the dictionary. Or maybe go see a theropist.
If i'm biased against people that play games then i'm biased towards myself too because i am a gamer myself which in turn makes this some sort of split personallity disorder
But i guess that's just your opinion i'm only biased as far as people like you are concerned, that's the sort of people that take the whole gaming thing a bit to seriously ( talking about skills and 'out clicking'[WTF does that even mean] their opponent)and not so on it's fun side.
Therapist???Nah, doesn't work too expensive. I prefer my local bar that has one of those bartenders that know how to listen (now that's an actual skill) and who knows maybe i'll get lucky enough and find a chick that's drunk enough to come home with me
First off, I am from the USA, so we call it a Resume (and yes I have one), second off, you can infact put gaming achievements on certain resumes, for instance if you were trying to get into the gaming industry, such as Quality Assurance or Design, if you won a world championship at First Person Shooters, they would be someone inclined to listen to your point of view on how to make a good First Person Shooter, or equipment to go along with said games (such as Infinity with his brand of Sound Cards and Head Sets).
Now would I put that I had a level 80 Mage on my resume to Kinkos, probably not, that would get you laughed out the door. (and no I dont play wow).
Resume?? Really i thought you didn't like the French over there
JK ! Strangely enough i don't have any other objections with this paragraph.
And why do I think you dislike gamers? Because you mock gaming in general, you degenerate it down to just "point and click", and to a certain degree it is, for those who are less inclined to know better (you). I play first person shooters mainly, I am talking about America's Army, Battlefield, Call of Duty, and the like, if you go into one of those games, and think that who wins has nothing to do with skill, then thats probably cause you are never the winner.
Mocking??? No sir i just don't elevate it to the level that many do, for me it's just a game nothing more, nothing less. I don't build my life around it i just insert it in whenever i so please.Yes FPS are my favorite type of games next to RPG especially when i gather with a few friends and have a LAN party at some after midnight hour on a Saturday night after we all had our beers and are wasted enough.Sometimes i win and most times i lose but i enjoy it regardless,cause hey, it's just a game
"Care to explain to me how exactly is pressing the mouse button really fast while strafing is a skill??"
I will, because it can be broken down to Hand Eye Coordination. Me being able to move my aim reticle over your head, and pull the trigger takes the same brain work that a Drag Racer uses to see a green light, and hit the gas while shifting gears in order to beat his opponent by fractions of a second, just like I get a headshot on you by just a fraction of a second before you can shoot back.
"Games are supposed to be fun first the instant that 'professionalism' is added the fun factor goes right out the window for me cause soon after we have people running around flaunting their ' game achievements' and 'uber elite status' demanding,some times, recognition for things that nobody but them could possibly care"
Once again, you bring in personality traits. You assume that because some people are better then others, they will/have to flaunt it. You recognize that there are people who are better, but you don't recognize WHY there are people who are better. Tell me this, if it isn't skill, then what is it? If you and I are going against each other, and all outstanding factors are equal (gear, level, etc) and I win by a large margin, WHY did that happen? Lets say we go at it again, and the same result happens, WHY did I win? Luck? Fate? No pal, I think its because I am better, thus I am more skilled then you are at the game. Why are you so reluctant to admit that skill does factor into it?
You beat me 1 time i say : it's luck, 2 times: coincidence, 3 times: is fate. However every dog has it's day and eventually i will get back at you 1,2,3 times...So what are you gonna say then?"Gee i guess you are more skilful than me.." or "You just got lucky ,i'll get you next time" hmmm i wonder......
"If i'm biased against people that play games then i'm biased towards myself too"
I appologize, I misworded what I wanted to say, let me rephrase. You aren't biased against gamers, you are biased against gamers who are better then you. Whether they flaunt it or not, you shrug it off as something along the lines of "luck" and say it doesn't "take skill" because you don't want to admit it to yourself, so you make excuses, and you dodge the real issue, and it doesn't matter how much you get proven wrong, you aren't going to admit it, so I am just going to end this little rant now. Have fun :P
Again i must repeat myself i treat a game as a game should be treated and that's as a game.If i shrug it off everything alongside the lines of "luck" as you claim then can i claim that you are to prompt to declare every "victory" over some "n00b" that you achieve due to your "skillz" at the game regardless whether or not he hit a lagspike at that point or he got distracted by some external source and you will be equally prompt to call him "lucky" the next time he "pwnz" you thus contradicting yourself when you talk about "game skillz"??Or is that not in your realm of possibilities to happen? See?? 2 can play this game...
Still you're right about 1 thing this is getting a bit
and that's unfair towards the OP of the thread, so i'm willing to give it a rest as long as you are, besides i think we offered this community enough entertainment for the day if you want to continue this discussion feel free to pm me...
I agree that we should get back on topic, but I do feel inclined to clear something up.
Everyone has their off days, and their on days, true enough, if I win some, then you win some, then I am not a more skillful player then you, we are at the same skill level. Because even when two people are at the same skill level, it won't end up in a constant tie, you will win some times, and you will lose some times, that is the law of averages. But what I was refering to, wasn't two equal opponents, just two players on equal ground (with different skill levels), there is a difference. Even if one person has far more skill then the other, he won't win every time, like I said, luck does play a factor, but if someone is more skilled they will still win with a higher average then the other, it wont end up 5-5, it will end up more like 9-1 or 8-2. Assuming that two people of equal level and stats/gear will always end up in a draw (or eventually a 5-5 draw) in a skill based game, is just hopeful thinking.
The thing is, you are side stepping the issue of skills being part of the game, and you are coming up with absurd scenarios to make an excuse as to why I would kill someone (As in lag spikes, and outside factors causing all of my excess kills). You seem to assume that if I kill someone once, I assume I am better then them, and if they kill me back, I make an excuse as per "luck". I don't consider myself better then someone until I have beaten them so many times, (in a large ratio, not 6-4, more like 9-1 or 8-2 ratio) and not until I understand their tactics (on this map, do they like to go here, do they like to go there, do they wait for me to come to them, do they rush at me, what gun do they prefer, the sniper, the SMG, etc etc) until I have analyzed their game play, and understand how they play. Until then its just a "getting to know eachother period", which I often go through with clan mates and friends. I know some of my friends are better then me at some things (aka Sniping, which I counteract with rushing and hit and run tactics) while I am better then them at other things (IE close quarters, anticipating where they will go, etc), I got to know them, I got to know how they play, I anticipate their moves, I play better then them, more skilled then them. I don't just play with random people and assume I am better, which is where you seam to be getting confused
Yes you can chalk things up to "Its a game, I play it for fun", well like chess, I like to see how well I can do, and when I try to do my best, and succeed, I enjoy the game, and when I lose, I try to learn from my mistakes, and do better next time. Which is where "Skill" comes into the game for me.
Hey hey hold on a sec it was you that opened the "assumption bag" i simply took it one step further and i could continue even further but to be honest i'm starting to feel a bit worried that this thread will blow out of proportion (i mean just take a look at the size of it, it's the Godzilla of threads!!!)Let me put things like this, you said you do LANS and play a FPS. If you went one on one with someone in a FPS, you both had the same gun, do you think that it would constantly end in a 5-5 tie? Or do you think if you were playing someone who was better then you (more skilled) or less skilled then you, one of you would take the lead, and win consistently more then the other? What you are saying, is that in video games, if two people both have the same stuff, then skill doesn't matter, it will end in a tie. When if you look at any competitive ladders (TWL, CAL) that is not the case, the better more skilled team comes out on top, because of just that, they are more skilled.
What things keep boiling down to, is you assume there is no skill involved in the game, because you prefer to not think of it in a skillful way, or a strategic way, but more of a "lets go have fun and mess around way" which is a perfectly legit way to play a game, most people play their video games that way;however, assuming that just because you play a game a certain way, that no one else can play it a different way, is just a little bit egotistical :P
Anyways, if you want me to clear up any more of my previous post, I can, or if you want to just let things go, thats cool too. But no offense, from my part of the argument, it is like trying to explain science to the Amish
Iiii-iiiiiit's.... me!!! *Hooray*
Clearly you have a problem with playing video games (which makes me wonder why you are on MMORPG.Com, but I digress)
i wonder how you ended up with this conclusion but for the sake of conversation i shall accept it for now
Think about what you are saying, before you type it please.
Right back at you
1) Many Video Games have world championships (I was almost flown to Korea 2 years ago to participate in a World Championship for a FPS video game, so your wrong on the first one)
Yeah i just found out about this one and i am a bit shocked honestly
2) If there are world championships (and there are) then there are also victors, who then become the world champions, so you are wrong on the second one too (I know the people who won the WC for that game, I hate them for going instead of me -.- lol)
Watch my answer above
3) Dunno what a CV is, might wanna clarify on your acronyms :P
You're either to young to know what a CV is or too rich anyone applying for a job needs one 'Curriculum Vitae' search it up in a dictionary
4) That statement is just ignorant, I mean seriously, saying that it doesn't take skill because there aren't trolls and goblins running around in real life for you to kill is just pathetic.
Care to explain to me how exactly is pressing the mouse button really fast while strafing is a skill??
5) There are tons of profesionals, someone posted about Fatality, he is a profesional gamer, and there are profesional gaming teams, who are on TV (and yea, there are shows about people playing Dead or Alive, and Counter strike/various other games) and teams get paid for winning, especially when they win the championship of their league/whatever, so you are WRONG AGAIN.
Now see i found out just a few minutes ago and i still lol at this term professional gamer. Games are supposed to be fun first the instant that 'professionalism' is added the fun factor goes right out the window for me cause soon after we have people running around flaunting their ' game achievements' and 'uber elite status' demanding,some times, recognition for things that nobody but them could possibly care
6) You state that the reason why chess takes skill, is because it doesn't use speed or accuracy, and those are key parts to what "skill" means, the ability to out manuever, out perform, and out think everyone else. Chess doesn't rely solely on quickness, true, but it is a part, why else would the championship chess leagues require you to use a clock and follow strict time requirements (meaning you have to be quick, you cant just sit for 5 hours and think).
Ok i'll give you that one i wasn't talking about pro league chess i was talking about the commonly know features of the game worldwide and quickness isn't one of them but nontheless it is a chess feature
You seam to have a TOTAL bias against people who play video games, thinking that games (in general) don't take skill, because it isn't something that you can repeat in real life (IE slaying dragons etc), but games use dexterity (the ability to out click / out manuever your oponents), accuracy (the ability to not only move your mouse quickly, but to move them to the right place), and plenty of ingenuity (the ability to think quickly on your feet [or butt as the case may be] and be able to do complexe rationalities while on the move, to be able to determine what you should do, how, and when. Basically, the ability to out think your opponent).
If the aforementioned items are not what determine "Skill" for you, I suggest you go and look it up in the dictionary. Or maybe go see a theropist.
If i'm biased against people that play games then i'm biased towards myself too because i am a gamer myself which in turn makes this some sort of split personallity disorder
But i guess that's just your opinion i'm only biased as far as people like you are concerned, that's the sort of people that take the whole gaming thing a bit to seriously ( talking about skills and 'out clicking'[WTF does that even mean] their opponent)and not so on it's fun side.
Therapist???Nah, doesn't work too expensive. I prefer my local bar that has one of those bartenders that know how to listen (now that's an actual skill) and who knows maybe i'll get lucky enough and find a chick that's drunk enough to come home with me
First off, I am from the USA, so we call it a Resume (and yes I have one), second off, you can infact put gaming achievements on certain resumes, for instance if you were trying to get into the gaming industry, such as Quality Assurance or Design, if you won a world championship at First Person Shooters, they would be someone inclined to listen to your point of view on how to make a good First Person Shooter, or equipment to go along with said games (such as Infinity with his brand of Sound Cards and Head Sets).
Now would I put that I had a level 80 Mage on my resume to Kinkos, probably not, that would get you laughed out the door. (and no I dont play wow).
Resume?? Really i thought you didn't like the French over there
JK ! Strangely enough i don't have any other objections with this paragraph.
And why do I think you dislike gamers? Because you mock gaming in general, you degenerate it down to just "point and click", and to a certain degree it is, for those who are less inclined to know better (you). I play first person shooters mainly, I am talking about America's Army, Battlefield, Call of Duty, and the like, if you go into one of
explain science to the Amish
Hey hey hold on a sec it was you that opened the "assumption bag" i simply took it one step further and i could continue even further but to be honest i'm starting to feel a bit worried that this thread will blow out of proportion (i mean just take a look at the size of it, it's the Godzilla of threads!!!)Taste the rainbow.
lol @ ;harmonica
It's apparent that part 6 of Noobs really clarifies how 'exactly' the ruleset of DF will be the same as UO was before Trammel. Her comments about going rogue (grey in UO).
The fact is, that UO was dying pretty rapidly up until they announced Trammel. Let me give you some reasons why players quit under this kind of system.
The only problem I have with you is you make some awfully authoritative sounding definite statements about universal player mental states and behavoirs. People will quit when they lose. People will quit when they lose all their items. Etc.
On the other hand, you do bring up legitimate concerns which would be important to the long term health and stability of any game, like keeping lids on exploits, newbie "protection".
1. Exploits - Dying to players who exploit in other games is annoying.. dying to exploiters and losing all your stuff will make you completely stop playing until the exploit is fixed. How fast do 'exploits' spread? Once someone learns it, they will pass it onto their guild and friends. How fast do most games take to fix an exploit? A few weeks to acknowledge it, another 2 weeks to fix it? UO had a bunch of real exploits (spamming chat to get people to lag) and they also had 'tricks'. Just like in UO.. players will learn how to get you to go rogue/grey so they can get you killed. Honest players will just stop playing, everyone else will learn to use the exploit.
How many truly game breaking exploits have you been killed by, in a modern MMO? I'm not talking about minor tricks like grey-flagging; I'm talking about things like Corrupted Blood.
Let's use WoW as an example. Barring Corrupted Blood, which was truly major enough to warrant research from the CDC; I can think of a whopping one "big" exploit for killing people: Felhound Geddon bombs in the AH, which Blizzard hotfixed like a week after the incident.
If WoW was a full loot PvP game, I can count on one hand "major exploits" that could've threatened game stability.
It's true, exploit control is highly important, but that sits squarely in the realm of "not releasing a buggy game". The PvP aspect is a red herring; the real problem lies in the exploits themselves. Release a mostly-bug-free game (possible, see WoW), and you never have the problem. Release a horrendously bug infested game, and you'll fail, PvP or no.
2. Lag/Crashes - Same as above. If you have lag spikes at all, will you really play that day? In other games, death isn't that big of a deal, so you don't mind getting killed a few extra times because your connection is bad.
As often as people blame "lag spikes!" on their deaths, how many times have you truly had a "laggy" connection? If people are downloading bittorrents and your ping goes to 500, you log off and don't play until they're done (or you kick them off). You don't quit the game.
3. Brit graveyard - To those that didn't play UO, I'll explain this
Brit graveyard was typically the first area where new players would 'wander' outside of town. It was right outside of the biggest town, and it had easy monsters to kill. Because of this, it was often the place where Murderers hung out. In UO, new players were often essentially trapped in town. Yes, if you knew people before you started playing, they could help you.. but you basically had to know them BEFORE you started playing. Someone who just bought the box, logged in and started playing, probably spent their first month rarely getting out of town. This is the exact reason UO introduced Trammel. Players weren't renewing after their free month, and they were citing 'ganking' as the reason. The same thing will happen in Darkfall. Anti-social players will camp the area where new players first step into the 'world' and gank them.
This is a valid concern. No place should be safe, but new players need to be given the opportunity to learn how to play the game.
We don't know what precautions the developers have taken to counteract this, or if they will be sufficient. We know that the immediately starting newbie area is defended by extremely unrealistically tough guards, versus the roughly player-strength guards found everywhere else. We know the world is very large, with plenty of space to go "off the grid" or "off the path" if you wish.
4. Don't come late to the party - This kind of goes with #3. But basically what happens is if you are a month or two late starting the game, you will be getting ganked all the time by players that are more powerful than you and they will block your progress. The first players who got through 'brit graveyard' were free to advance their skills pretty freely, but anyone who started late, always had more powerful characters waiting for them. This was the reason that some players 'loved' old UO.. because they were out there early. I was lucky when I played UO, i started at launch. But I had enough friends who started late and I 'experienced' what they did. New players won't renew
This is really only a concern if #3 exists.
Re: "getting ganked all the time by players... blocking your progress" implies that there is linear progression here.
Did you know large groups of high level players could endlessly corpse camp you in WoW, and you have no recourse? I say the same scenario in WoW would be even worse because:
- WoW is linear; you're a lot more limited to where you can go and when
- WoW is a lot more level based; you have zero chance of fighting back, and the people in your zone combined have zero chance of fighting back either. In Darkfall, even newbies have a chance against vets, and there are no "zones" with "level requirements", so it's possible to find friendly veterans in relative geographic proximity to newbies. How often do level 70's hang out in Ashenvale?
- WoW has corpse rezzing. Darkfall has bindpoint rezzing. Assuming they have some kind of bind protection plan in place (so far, we know they have temporary invulnerability after resurrection), you could be anywhere, and your killer has little hope of finding you to camp you.
5. Class/skill balance - Class balance is extremely hard to do. Class balance in PvP is almost impossible. How much fun is it going to be to play if you aren't the OP class? If because of skill/class balance you are losing your gear all the time. In every game, players cry about class balance.. in a game where it means you lose your gear..they will do more than cry, they will quit, or they will reroll to the OP class.
There are no classes. If you're talking about OP skill combinations or builds, then the advantage of a skill-based system is everyone can choose the OP skills without having to reroll. It also means the developers have a much easier time of nerfing OP skills without nerfing an entire class and alienating a large group of players who now have gimp classes.
How do you buff diverse pet viability without buffing already OP warlocks? How do you nerf stunlocks without nerfing otherwise weak rogues? How do you nerf OP burst damage trinkets without nerfing otherwise weak mages lacking in spell damage itemization? These are all thorny questions Blizzard has had to tiptoe on eggshells with over the years.
They eventually did address these, but it took them months at a time to do major "class overhauls", because they had to painstakingly examine interactions between all the different abilities within a class, between classes, and classes against each other.
This is much less of a concern when you have no classes with integral unique abilities at their core.
6. Bring your friends - full-loss death means that players will group up and wander in bands. This sounds cool in theory, but what happens if you log in and you don't have many friends on? And again, what about new players?
Go out into the woods alone, and try to solo PK? It was possible (albeit impopular) in UO, and UO was far more cramped than Darkfall will be.
Go out into the woods alone, and try to solo fish/mine/whatever? It was possible in UO, most people didn't even try.
Stay close to town and craft, trade, shop, and do whatever you can while staying in a relatively safe location?
This was all possible in UO. A lucky or skilled few could do it and never die. A much larger number would die occasionally, but still found it worth the time. I'll bet most of the people who complained about being "restricted to towns" were those who found even one death unacceptable, regardless of how the the reward:loss ratio ended up working out.
And the UO world was tiny.
UO pre-trammel showed exactly what is going to happen with DF.
1. New players won't last the first month
2. Exploits will be rampent and spread quickly. 'tricking' players into going grey will be considered a tactic. Players who are successful aren't the ones who use their skills the best, they will be the ones who learn to game the game.
3. The Flavor-of-the-month class will be the only one played. UO had a phase (about 6 months) where everyone was a mage who carried a polearm.
4. Gear grinding - You'll have to have many sets of gear stored, or else when you die with your group, you will get left behind as you try to get more gear.
1. If new players are as locationally vulnerable as they were in UO, then yes. This has everything to do with the specific precautions the devs are taking in regards to starter areas and quests. If UO didn't have it, that's UO's fault; it's hardly inherent to the concept of FFA full loot.
2. How many game breaking PvP exploits would WoW have had IF it were a full loot game? Yeah, that's what I thought. I'm more worried about hacks than exploits, which you forgot to mention. That's a legitimate concern too.
3. The patching cycle tends to be a lot faster in contemporary games, compared to the first original MMOs. The skill balancing process is also inherently simpler and faster in a non-class based game. So even if there are hally mages, 1) there are 10 times the number of skills in DF than UO, which means a more diverse pool to derive counters from, or 2) if hally mages are that OP that nothing can realistically counter them, they can be swiftly hit with the nerf bat without massive collateral damage to large portions of the game.
4. This is intended. The progressive acquisition of gear is not the cornerstone of this game like it is in many contemporary MMOs. Gear is meant to be a tool, a means to an end, and I'm guessing the devs would like players to realize this as early as possible. Also the degradation and loss of gear is a part of the dynamic economy, which the game is supposed to feature. EVE has gear loss too, and it arguably has the best, deepest, and most extensive economy of any game out there.
There is a reason why UO made Trammel, they were losing a ton of players because of the ruleset.
This is simply not true, as has been proven numerous times by people earlier, so I won't repeat it.
If you have a pre-built guild and you plan on starting on day 1 things will seem fine for a few weeks... but the UO ruleset just is not viable for a longterm game
Correction: it wasn't the UO ruleset (FFA, full loot PVP) that caused these concerns of yours. It was specific game design elements (extensiveness of the starter zones, protection under the learning curve, graveyard and town placement) that caused these problems, not the basic idea of FFA full loot.
Also, I'll mention:
It's been brought up earlier, but what other FFA full loot games "failed"?
AC: Darktide was always highly populated during AC's heyday. AC itself was considered, making a note here, huge success. Alongside UO and EQ, it was one of the big three of the 90's. The game died a natural death; it was not a failure.
Shadowbane grabbed over 50k subs, so it was hardly a flop... at launch anyway. You can never definitively pin the blame on full loot PvP, when you also have occurences like cities being teleported into the ocean with hacked admin powers.
EVE Online has FFA full loot, and it's still going strong today with over 200k subs.
So, what other mainstream full loot FFA games have supposedly "failed" due to their rules? Cause the only 3 I can think of are listed up there, and only one of them can be considered a "failure", more for bugs and hacks than anything else.
EVE is not fully open pvp. You are safe in high sec space. Thats the way most people want it. They want areas that are safe, where you can gather resources, and kill mobs.
They don't want a game where 50 people are standing outside all the exits to town, and kill you the second you leave the city
1. Go load up a bunch of T2 BPOs in your hold and fly around Jita yelling "HEY LOOK AT ME!" and see how long you last. There is no truely safe place in EVE outside a space station, only safe(r).
2. Nice job speaking for everybody as to what they want, especially low-sec based corps and pirates. Or better yet, 0.0 alliances who exist virtually independantly of high-sec empire space. Oh wait.
None of this is inherent problem with the concept of full loot PvP, but a question of where on the sliding scale your safe(r) zones land.
UO had "guarded" areas too; just tiny and restricted ones compared to EVE.
The question then is how large and extensives do you make your safe(r) zone, which is up to individual games to decide.
Ideally, the concept of a "safer" zone is as a newbie learning curve area, which is perhaps its most valuable purpose to EVE.
If you removed high-sec from EVE, it would undoubtedly hurt the game, but would not kill it outright. Low-sec corps and pirates would not only continue to exist, but move in to fill the void. 0.0 alliances wouldn't even notice. The true detriment of losing highsec would be the inhospitability to new players, with long term consequences.
Clearly, a sizable portion, if not the majority, of current EVE players would not quit in horror at the loss of highsec. It's the newbies (and the long term potential) of the game, that would suffer.
brit graveyard is a single hotspot.
In AC there were hotspots also, such as Shoushi South, on the road to hebian-to.
But there were 3 races and 5+ starter locations. so few were camped by murderers.
A larger amount was camped by antis or friendly people recuriting for clans.
In DF there are 5 races each with 3 starter towns.
Dont tell me all 15 will be camped by same race murderers 24/7.
Hopefully killing newbs for crap gear and little money isnt worth the time of a PK.
Not directed to you Cortanya.
Looks to me, for this comment and a lot others on this and other threads, people have the idea that a skill based system implies a skill based game.
A skill based game is a FPS for example. There, a newbie player with a gun can kill someone using a machine gun and a flack jacket if he is better/faster at aiming/dodging/using cover.
On a skill based system game if the newbie has Fighting at 15 and someone with Fighting at 100 attacks him, he is dead. No human skill is going to save him, just like if a level 50 attacks a level 10 on a level based mmorpg.
Call it levels or call it skill % the principle is the same: The big fish will eat alive the small one. Always.
The only advantage (for gameplay) is that you can't see how strong your oponent is, and what skills he will be using, until you are engaged. This will leave the Bully Ganker type out of the equation (Until he maxes skills grinding pve, of course).
Said that:
With some things I agree with the OP, some not and others I am on the grey because only after launch we will see what happens.One of the ones I have mixed feelings is the ganking part.
For one I think it will be better than UO for the simple fact that the game is 3D and don't have Stealth. Those two missing things make it easier to avoid PKs with a bit of surrounding awareness and using whatever is there (Trees, bushes, rocks etc...) to hide. No more guys suddenly showing at the corner of the screen to cast a Nox something spell and flee again or people appearing out of nowhere behind you.
But I think it can become worse due the evolution of mmorpg comunities since pre-wow to post-wow "era". If back then we had 1/100 PKs/gankers/griefers in UO now I bet we will have 20-25/100 in Darkfall (numbers out of my mind). Rotten apples (angry kids, inmature adults, ninja looters and the rest of anoying people we find in mmorpgs) back then were the exception, now are a noticiable % of the mmorpg population.
This is also the exact same ruleset that Lineage II uses. While the game may be an Asian grindfest it was the #1 game for a short while before WoW released. Before that the #1 game was lineage I, another game that used this exact 1 hit flagging system. The decline of both of these games has to do more with the WoW era of MMO gaming and nothing to do with the rulesets they used.
Errr... actually not exactly, or entirely true.
What hurt L2's population early on was the rampant ganking of lowbies that had just started the game when NC had a very "hands off" approach to PvP in the game.
Camping exits of starting towns, mob training people, tricking them into flagging and/or going red, etc... all were considered fair game by NC at the beginning.
After a while, the high level players realized they weren't gaining many new players and actually asked the gankers to leave new players be and let them get some footing in the game as it was becoming top-heavy. I clearly remember this happening because it was all around C3, which is when I came back.
The gankers didn't stop and so players took it into their own hands and would ask new players who were being ganked to let them know on the forums of who it was, when and where.. and they would actually go "red hunting" to help new players actually play the game.
Some time after that, NC Soft noticed the trend and started easing up on the "open-ness" of the PvP, making it more difficult for would-be gankers to do their thing.
Also, as players got sick of losing gear that took a *long* time to acquire (a month or more at times) because they died, that was driving some away as well. NC responded to this by reducing the circumstances under which gear could be dropped.
What finally started driving people away was the rampant botting and NC Soft's utter and complete lack of serious action against it. To this day, they will do only a token banning every few months, and then turn away and ignore it again. That's another major reason why people have left.
In all my time playing L2, I've known only 5 people who left L2 to go to WoW. Others have tried it and came back, others couldn't be bothered and think WoW's PvP is way too watered down to ever enjoy it. Of course, there are others who I'm sure did leave to go to WoW. But if that were really the main reason, one would think it would be more prevalent.
To sum it up.. on Vent the other night, I was chatting wth a few people and the topic of other PvP MMOs came up. Someone mentioned WoW and the response was basically laughter, one person saying "I meant *real* PvP MMOs".
These two games use this same PvP ruleset minus the full loot and were staggeringly popular for years before they were superceded by the casual playstyle of the modern MMO gamer. Lineage II still has close to a million paying subscribers as we speak so can hardly be called a dead game. Also in resent expansions they have added elements to the game to lessen the grind so subscriptions are on the rise again but they haven't changed the PvP ruleset since day one.
Again... they haven't changed the core ruleset.. but that's not the whole picture. As of now you can only drop items if you're killed while red and you have 5 or more PKs. This, compared to how it used to be where anyone could drop gear whether they were red or not, whether a mob or another player killed you.
So basically, only the most determined PK'ers - or those who fail to do a sin-eater quest regularly - have anything to worry about.
The core ruleset hasn't changed... but the penalties have been *drastically* reduced... and it's the penalty of dropping really expensive gear that hurt the most in L2.
From what I've seen/read/heard, DF is basically going to be how L2 was for a short time after launch, before NC started to tone it down.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Not directed to you Cortanya.
Looks to me, for this comment and a lot others on this and other threads, people have the idea that a skill based system implies a skill based game.
A skill based game is a FPS for example. There, a newbie player with a gun can kill someone using a machine gun and a flack jacket if he is better/faster at aiming/dodging/using cover.
On a skill based system game if the newbie has Fighting at 15 and someone with Fighting at 100 attacks him, he is dead. No human skill is going to save him, just like if a level 50 attacks a level 10 on a level based mmorpg.
Call it levels or call it skill % the principle is the same: The big fish will eat alive the small one. Always.
The only advantage (for gameplay) is that you can't see how strong your oponent is, and what skills he will be using, until you are engaged. This will leave the Bully Ganker type out of the equation (Until he maxes skills grinding pve, of course).
Said that:
With some things I agree with the OP, some not and others I am on the grey because only after launch we will see what happens.One of the ones I have mixed feelings is the ganking part.
For one I think it will be better than UO for the simple fact that the game is 3D and don't have Stealth. Those two missing things make it easier to avoid PKs with a bit of surrounding awareness and using whatever is there (Trees, bushes, rocks etc...) to hide. No more guys suddenly showing at the corner of the screen to cast a Nox something spell and flee again or people appearing out of nowhere behind you.
But I think it can become worse due the evolution of mmorpg comunities since pre-wow to post-wow "era". If back then we had 1/100 PKs/gankers/griefers in UO now I bet we will have 20-25/100 in Darkfall (numbers out of my mind). Rotten apples (angry kids, inmature adults, ninja looters and the rest of anoying people we find in mmorpgs) back then were the exception, now are a noticiable % of the mmorpg population.
bah you can get 100 skill in swords in a week, don't complain if you have 1 in sword. there was a dev quote that said 3noobs=1 vet (not including player skill) so that gives you an idea of how powerful 1 sword is compared to having 100 in swords. And again, you are a super noob if you don't have 100 in swords.
When I'm energetic I'm:
the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
When I'm at default I'm:
WHITE/BLUE
Lol according to this I'm bipolar :O
wow , when i read the topic name i thought the op meant the opposite , "why after trammel uo failed".
UO was a great game , a great pvp game that we played for 3-4 years , wich involved skills not gear , but good'ol EA turened into an online diablo without PvP .
Imagine you buy a game that you enjoy let's say an FPS , you enjoy playing it for 3 months and than allofasudden you start the game and it becomes a raceing sim.
that is how most of the uo community felt when trammel got introduced.
DF will not fail because it's the sandbox uo style game with FFA PvP and looting that most of us have been waiting for, it's not going to fail because you might not like what it has to offer, go play one of the thousand other games that don't involve looting and have huge PvE content.
Pardon my spelling .
Life is a game - Play it!...
Thing is... It's not the game itself that necessarily fails. It's some of the people playing that drag it down.
The fans of a wide open PvP system who play to experience the game aren't the ones who ruin it. They're busy enjoying the game for all that you mentioned.
It's the relative few who abuse that "freedom" to gank, harass and ultimately chase new players out of the game that do.
If a game starts losing players because some people are abusing some open aspect of it, you better believe they're going to make changes. You may have a game you want to play, but they have a business they want to keep afloat, and dropping sub numbers do not help.
Might not happen immediately.. it took several months before players in L2 started to see the effects of the lowbie gankers' behavior on the population and stepped up to try and stop it. But if left alone, chances are it will become a problem.
It's happened to at least 2 other MMOs I know of that started with wide-open free-for-all PvP and had to tone it down to stop player leakage. I'm sure it's happened to others. To think that DF will somehow dodge that bullet simply because some want to believe it's "immune" is, in my opinion, naive. A precedent has been set by other MMOs that came before it.
Again... It's not the game system itself that would fail, necessarily. It's a portion of abusive players that ruin it for everyone else.
But... time will tell either way.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Thing is... It's not the game itself that necessarily fails. It's some of the people playing that drag it down.
The fans of a wide open PvP system who play to experience the game aren't the ones who ruin it. They're busy enjoying the game for all that you mentioned.
It's the relative few who abuse that "freedom" to gank, harass and ultimately chase new players out of the game that do.
If a game starts losing players because some people are abusing some open aspect of it, you better believe they're going to make changes. You may have a game you want to play, but they have a business they want to keep afloat, and dropping sub numbers do not help.
Might not happen immediately.. it took several months before players in L2 started to see the effects of the lowbie gankers' behavior on the population and stepped up to try and stop it. But if left alone, chances are it will become a problem.
It's happened to at least 2 other MMOs I know of that started with wide-open free-for-all PvP and had to tone it down to stop player leakage. I'm sure it's happened to others. To think that DF will somehow dodge that bullet simply because some want to believe it's "immune" is, in my opinion, naive. A precedent has been set by other MMOs that came before it.
Again... It's not the game system itself that would fail, necessarily. It's a portion of abusive players that ruin it for everyone else.
But... time will tell either way.
I never played L2, but did it not have a very steep character level and gear curve? IMO such game designs are inappropriate for open PvP for the exact reason you mention. Newbies are cannon fodder. DF's design features a much flatter advancement and gear curve so that newbies are not so easily ganked. Consequently DF to L2 is not a direct comparison but as you say, time will tell.
Thing is... It's not the game itself that necessarily fails. It's some of the people playing that drag it down.
The fans of a wide open PvP system who play to experience the game aren't the ones who ruin it. They're busy enjoying the game for all that you mentioned.
It's the relative few who abuse that "freedom" to gank, harass and ultimately chase new players out of the game that do.
If a game starts losing players because some people are abusing some open aspect of it, you better believe they're going to make changes. You may have a game you want to play, but they have a business they want to keep afloat, and dropping sub numbers do not help.
Might not happen immediately.. it took several months before players in L2 started to see the effects of the lowbie gankers' behavior on the population and stepped up to try and stop it. But if left alone, chances are it will become a problem.
It's happened to at least 2 other MMOs I know of that started with wide-open free-for-all PvP and had to tone it down to stop player leakage. I'm sure it's happened to others. To think that DF will somehow dodge that bullet simply because some want to believe it's "immune" is, in my opinion, naive. A precedent has been set by other MMOs that came before it.
Again... It's not the game system itself that would fail, necessarily. It's a portion of abusive players that ruin it for everyone else.
But... time will tell either way.
I never played L2, but did it not have a very steep character level and gear curve? IMO such game designs are inappropriate for open PvP for the exact reason you mention. Newbies are cannon fodder. DF's design features a much flatter advancement and gear curve so that newbies are not so easily ganked. Consequently DF to L2 is not a direct comparison but as you say, time will tell.
There are a lot of reasons Darkfall might not 'fail'. The whole point of my original post was just to show major issues that other games had. Nobody is in beta right now, so nobody knows if DF has solved a lot of the issues that plagued UO and L2.
Thing is... It's not the game itself that necessarily fails. It's some of the people playing that drag it down.
The fans of a wide open PvP system who play to experience the game aren't the ones who ruin it. They're busy enjoying the game for all that you mentioned.
It's the relative few who abuse that "freedom" to gank, harass and ultimately chase new players out of the game that do.
If a game starts losing players because some people are abusing some open aspect of it, you better believe they're going to make changes. You may have a game you want to play, but they have a business they want to keep afloat, and dropping sub numbers do not help.
Might not happen immediately.. it took several months before players in L2 started to see the effects of the lowbie gankers' behavior on the population and stepped up to try and stop it. But if left alone, chances are it will become a problem.
It's happened to at least 2 other MMOs I know of that started with wide-open free-for-all PvP and had to tone it down to stop player leakage. I'm sure it's happened to others. To think that DF will somehow dodge that bullet simply because some want to believe it's "immune" is, in my opinion, naive. A precedent has been set by other MMOs that came before it.
Again... It's not the game system itself that would fail, necessarily. It's a portion of abusive players that ruin it for everyone else.
But... time will tell either way.
I never played L2, but did it not have a very steep character level and gear curve? IMO such game designs are inappropriate for open PvP for the exact reason you mention. Newbies are cannon fodder. DF's design features a much flatter advancement and gear curve so that newbies are not so easily ganked. Consequently DF to L2 is not a direct comparison but as you say, time will tell.
There are a lot of reasons Darkfall might not 'fail'. The whole point of my original post was just to show major issues that other games had. Nobody is in beta right now, so nobody knows if DF has solved a lot of the issues that plagued UO and L2.
It’s rather safe to say that they have not. In fact, it’s also safe to say that the game is being created by those that WANT such issues. I am sure they are the SAME people making this game, that left after ganking was restricted.
From all the info I have read, they are hell bent on making mistakes of others game, FEATURES in theirs.
Case in point, the "Relative few" are exactly the people they want in the game, look at the forums, looks at the fan videos...this is the community they (Developers) fostered.
The rest of you are about to find out your not as "Hardcore" as you thought.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
It’s rather safe to say that they have not. In fact, it’s also safe to say that the game is being created by those that WANT such issues. I am sure they are the SAME people making this game, that left after ganking was restricted.
From all the info I have read, they are hell bent on making mistakes of others game, FEATURES in theirs.
Case in point, the "Relative few" are exactly the people they want in the game, look at the forums, looks at the fan videos...this is the community they (Developers) fostered.
The rest of you are about to find out your not as "Hardcore" as you thought.
Spend much time on your soapbox?
It’s rather safe to say that they have not. In fact, it’s also safe to say that the game is being created by those that WANT such issues. I am sure they are the SAME people making this game, that left after ganking was restricted.
From all the info I have read, they are hell bent on making mistakes of others game, FEATURES in theirs.
Case in point, the "Relative few" are exactly the people they want in the game, look at the forums, looks at the fan videos...this is the community they (Developers) fostered.
The rest of you are about to find out your not as "Hardcore" as you thought.
Spend much time on your soapbox?
What soapbox would that be?
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Thing is... It's not the game itself that necessarily fails. It's some of the people playing that drag it down.
The fans of a wide open PvP system who play to experience the game aren't the ones who ruin it. They're busy enjoying the game for all that you mentioned.
It's the relative few who abuse that "freedom" to gank, harass and ultimately chase new players out of the game that do.
If a game starts losing players because some people are abusing some open aspect of it, you better believe they're going to make changes. You may have a game you want to play, but they have a business they want to keep afloat, and dropping sub numbers do not help.
Might not happen immediately.. it took several months before players in L2 started to see the effects of the lowbie gankers' behavior on the population and stepped up to try and stop it. But if left alone, chances are it will become a problem.
It's happened to at least 2 other MMOs I know of that started with wide-open free-for-all PvP and had to tone it down to stop player leakage. I'm sure it's happened to others. To think that DF will somehow dodge that bullet simply because some want to believe it's "immune" is, in my opinion, naive. A precedent has been set by other MMOs that came before it.
Again... It's not the game system itself that would fail, necessarily. It's a portion of abusive players that ruin it for everyone else.
But... time will tell either way.
I never played L2, but did it not have a very steep character level and gear curve? IMO such game designs are inappropriate for open PvP for the exact reason you mention. Newbies are cannon fodder. DF's design features a much flatter advancement and gear curve so that newbies are not so easily ganked. Consequently DF to L2 is not a direct comparison but as you say, time will tell.
Sure it had a steep level curve, but it also had around 14 million players worldwide at one point. The level curve is part of the game, people played it in spite of - if not because of - that.
Not in an insulting way... but I can see grasping to still find that "one thing" that must have hurt those other games that DF will fix and make it immune to all those problems.
I understand where it comes from. People who are fans of a certain type of game will never want to believe it could ever happen to "their game".
Same thing happened with WAR. I'd predicted that players would find the fastest/easiest way to race to level cap and was shouted down and told I didn't know what I was talking about. "WAR isn't designed to support that kind of playstyle!" they said. "It won't happen in WAR!", and "Go away troll!" (even though I wasn't trolling; I was, like in this thread, pointing at human behavior, not at a flaw in the game design). Well... guess what happened?
To put a twist on Jeff Goldblum's line in Jurassic Park: "Players.... find a way"
No matter how flat or steep of a leveling curve there is, a player coming along after launch, or even one who doesn't play as "aggressively" as others are still going to fall behind and will become fodder for those who want to prey on them.
Those who want to hang around and gank lowbies don't typically play the game like others.. they'll get a certain distance into it, until they know their prey is no match for them - be it a level or an equivalent - and that's all they need.
The legit players will leave the typical ganker in the dust because, again, the typical ganker type is only looking to abuse it at others' expense. They don't *care* about how far they get, as long as they can sit around and abuse new players all day. That *is* the game to them.
If it has a wide open PvP system, I would bet money, you are going to have gankers.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Thing is... It's not the game itself that necessarily fails. It's some of the people playing that drag it down.
The fans of a wide open PvP system who play to experience the game aren't the ones who ruin it. They're busy enjoying the game for all that you mentioned.
It's the relative few who abuse that "freedom" to gank, harass and ultimately chase new players out of the game that do.
If a game starts losing players because some people are abusing some open aspect of it, you better believe they're going to make changes. You may have a game you want to play, but they have a business they want to keep afloat, and dropping sub numbers do not help.
Might not happen immediately.. it took several months before players in L2 started to see the effects of the lowbie gankers' behavior on the population and stepped up to try and stop it. But if left alone, chances are it will become a problem.
It's happened to at least 2 other MMOs I know of that started with wide-open free-for-all PvP and had to tone it down to stop player leakage. I'm sure it's happened to others. To think that DF will somehow dodge that bullet simply because some want to believe it's "immune" is, in my opinion, naive. A precedent has been set by other MMOs that came before it.
Again... It's not the game system itself that would fail, necessarily. It's a portion of abusive players that ruin it for everyone else.
But... time will tell either way.
I never played L2, but did it not have a very steep character level and gear curve? IMO such game designs are inappropriate for open PvP for the exact reason you mention. Newbies are cannon fodder. DF's design features a much flatter advancement and gear curve so that newbies are not so easily ganked. Consequently DF to L2 is not a direct comparison but as you say, time will tell.
There are a lot of reasons Darkfall might not 'fail'. The whole point of my original post was just to show major issues that other games had. Nobody is in beta right now, so nobody knows if DF has solved a lot of the issues that plagued UO and L2.
Um... plenty of people are in beta
IMO, the only way DF will be a mainstream success is if some gear isn't dropable, not all, just some. For instance someone finds one of the rarest swords in the game, by luck and through group effort and farming for 10+ hrs. People find out that the person who won the sword on the roll sucks at PvP, so 5 people team up to kill him for it and succeed because its 1v5. Well there goes 10hrs wasted, all the group effort (probably guild), and then the weapon repeatably swiches hands from that point forward. If the item is of rare quality, but farmable, I think it should be soulbound when equiped, or at least be protected in some other meaningful way. I think Runescape's old system, and I almost vomited when I said that, was actually good: 3 of hte "best items" in your inventory are protected unless you started combat, is a great soultion to this obvious issue. Then again, they could just make items less rare as well.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
Your still thinking WOW or L2 terms. there isnt gonna be grinding 10 hours for UBER sword.
Your still thinking WOW or L2 terms. there isnt gonna be grinding 10 hours for UBER sword.
In a recent article, they said there would be very rare, powerful items.
Your still thinking WOW or L2 terms. there isnt gonna be grinding 10 hours for UBER sword.
If it didn't have "uber" items then there wouldn't be any point to loot system, and for items to be worth their uberness they should, nay need, to take time to aquire. And face it, for a game to stay successful (100k+) it has to have attractive PvE as well.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
Your still thinking WOW or L2 terms. there isnt gonna be grinding 10 hours for UBER sword.
If it didn't have "uber" items then there wouldn't be any point to loot system, and for items to be worth their uberness they should, nay need, to take time to aquire. And face it, for a game to stay successful (100k+) it has to have attractive PvE as well.
There will be better weapons then others. Higher qualities. GM made weaponry (UO terms) wont be cheap... but they also wotn be omg uberness no skill needed to kill other guy with it. So yes it will be very nice to loot one
Sure it had a steep level curve, but it also had around 14 million players worldwide at one point. The level curve is part of the game, people played it in spite of - if not because of - that.
Not in an insulting way... but I can see grasping to still find that "one thing" that must have hurt those other games that DF will fix and make it immune to all those problems.
I understand where it comes from. People who are fans of a certain type of game will never want to believe it could ever happen to "their game".
Same thing happened with WAR. I'd predicted that players would find the fastest/easiest way to race to level cap and was shouted down and told I didn't know what I was talking about. "WAR isn't designed to support that kind of playstyle!" they said. "It won't happen in WAR!", and "Go away troll!" (even though I wasn't trolling; I was, like in this thread, pointing at human behavior, not at a flaw in the game design). Well... guess what happened?
To put a twist on Jeff Goldblum's line in Jurassic Park: "Players.... find a way"
No matter how flat or steep of a leveling curve there is, a player coming along after launch, or even one who doesn't play as "aggressively" as others are still going to fall behind and will become fodder for those who want to prey on them.
Those who want to hang around and gank lowbies don't typically play the game like others.. they'll get a certain distance into it, until they know their prey is no match for them - be it a level or an equivalent - and that's all they need.
The legit players will leave the typical ganker in the dust because, again, the typical ganker type is only looking to abuse it at others' expense. They don't *care* about how far they get, as long as they can sit around and abuse new players all day. That *is* the game to them.
If it has a wide open PvP system, I would bet money, you are going to have gankers.
I don't feel that I am grasping to any one thing except for the idea that the relative success of an MMO, or any game for that matter, cannot be simply narrowed down to the inclusion/exclusion of one single feature. Posters here have been repeating predictions that DF will fail because it has open PvP and/or full loot.
Will there be gankers in DF? I would also bet on it.
Will there be ganking in DF equivalent to in WoW where a single max level toon takes out an entire town in a newbie zone? Not likely.
Is getting killed in DF going to suck more than getting killed in WoW? Probably. Although I am more accepting of losing a fight against someone against whom I actually stood a chance as opposed to getting one shotted by someone 20 levels higher than me. However, designs with materialistic and gratuitous gameplay like WoW provide little incentive to form tight-knit player communities. On the other hand, adversity brings people together to tackle challenges that cannot be accomplished individually. I fully intend to be part of a clan in DF so that when needed I can rely on guildies to help resupply and they can rely on me.
I disagree about the 'steepness' of the leveling curve not mattering. If game design encourages game play AT the 'level cap' there is no need to continuously raise it (expansions) to keep players grinding. Consequently, new players, while initially at a disadvantage, have the opportunity to catch up. Ultra-casual players in games like WoW or say, L2, never play enough to be on a level playing field with power gamers.
Will casual players and power gamers ever be exactly equal? No. Not in any game. Even in fps games like Quake or UT, experience brings increased skill which means an advantage despite each player starting each match with the same weapon and stats. If that is a deal breaker for someone then they need a reality check on the way competition in life works.