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damian7
Member Posts: 4,449
i'm noticing a disturbing trend on this forum/site about COx and how to play it...
This isn't wow, or eq. You do NOT EVER need "the holy trinity" of tank/heal/dps. EVER.
anyone that tells you otherwise, either does not know how to play the game, or is stuck in eternal-noob mode.
there is NO "healer" class in this game. period.
go to the controller or defender forums on the official site and use the term "healer" and you'll get educated on what those classes actually do. there is no healer class; because healer is a lot weaker and inferior to what controllers and defenders CAN do. there are powersets with heals in them; but even an average player will not be defined by the heals; but rather all the other (MORE POWERFUL) things that character is capable of.
from personal experience, i can honestly attest to the fact that you can run any task force and strike force, and take down giant monsters, without EVER having to assemble "the right team" (i.e. tank/heal/dps). as i've said before, the coaliations in which i normally play, they simply look for X amount of players that want to do whatever task. i've yet to see anyone ever go "oh we need heals/tank/whatever before we can start".
so please, lose the idea that there's a holy trinity needed to mission... in COx -- it's player (not character) ability that determines whether you win or lose.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Comments
AMEN BROTHER!!!!!!!!
It does help to have a tank or defender sometimes though. I said HELPS, not that it is necccesary.
I sort of missed who said that, so I don't know what we're complaining about. But I agree.
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Disturbing?
Trends in the Middle East are disturbing. This is CoH.
But, okay, it's true. There is no healer class in this game.
However, every archetype can heal, if only with Medicine from the Pool Powers. So, depending on the makeup of a team... Be it a duo with just a Blaster who uses Stimulant and Heal Other, or a mid-sized team with --- oh, say, a Khel --- who can use Heal Other to back up the main healer on the team (be it a Defender or Controller)... To a dedicated healer in the name of an empathic Defender who guards the lives of a full team of eight... I think it's permissibble to use the term, "healer," in a generic sense, particularly where word count and/or maintaining focus prohibits listing all those who can heal, each and every time the reference is necessary.
And as for the 'holy trinity'... when did anyone say it was necessary to have tank/healer/damage in order to play this game? If that were true, soloing would not be possible. I myself routinely duo with my husband's toon, and we make quite a successful pair. By virtue of the fact that there are only two of us, no matter what we play, we cannot possibly meet your criteria for a 'trinity.'
Now should you wish to cite specific examples, circumstances, and occasions, wherein the presumed masses who've played all the other games in the world are messing up the CoH neighborhood, because they are in your estimation misinformed, then not only do you run the risk of selling them short, but exposing yourself as something less than the experieinced and magnimonious player you would have us all believe you to be.
You keep saying the game is so flexible, Damien, and I agree. However it'd be nice if you'd allow your fellow players that same flexibility and not dismiss them as idiots just because they make mistakes or employ a play style different from yours. So team with them, or don't. It's that simple.
Defenders are not healer in any way shape or form. Sure empathy has the most healing powers, but the other powers in the set are much better for helping the team.
So no, do NOT call my defender a HEALER. It's not easier, it's lazy and ignorant of the defenders other contributions.........and that includeds the defenders secondary powerset.
I apologise to you for any offense perceived, as it was most certainly not my intention. However, when I write, I choose to use the most concise and direct choice of words applicable. When I refer to the defensive powers of a Defender, I mention them specifically, or Defenders in general, or I may mention them as support toons (lumping them together with Controllers). It all depends on the context of the statement and the exact reference. And when I refer to the powers that heal and those that wield them, I freely use the term, "healer," and I make no apology for it. Whatever shame or slight you conjure from that simple noun is of your own making.
Contrary to popular opinion, I've never played WoW or any other game that supposedly offers a "healer" class. Neither have I, nor would I ever shout out the word, "Heal!" to my team mates. But I am a writer, and I choose to write in such a manner that even the newest player to the game would be able to understand my articles. I think it is quite evident to them that when I speak of a healer, I refer to those who can heal, regardless of archetype, and that is the sum and total of it.
But you are not writing in a way that gives an accurate picture of the game. As you have said before, any character can heal. So by your definition, a scrapper with the medicine pool is a healer. By just lumping all defenders as healers you are not being concise, you are giving out false information. Hell, Trick Arrow defenders don't even have a heal and have a history of being kicked from teams because of such. Why would they be kicked? Because some "writer" tried to be "concise and easy to understand for the new players" said defenders are healers.
There has been a group of people on this forum who have for years tried to fend of the CoH hate that gets spewed everytime some asks if the game is any good. We have tried to help the new people understand that any buiold can be a good team friendly build if played correctly. That this is not WoW where if you re not specced a specific way no one will invite you to team. If you have no other experience with other MMOs then you have no idea how far and away this game is to them. So maybe you should relax when someone like damien or me get upset when a relatively new poster starts spouting off that defenders are healers and a tank without taunt is useless.
Wikked, please.... Look back over my articles... Where I use the word healer, it is only in regard to those who use heals, not where the specifics of archetype makes a difference to the context of my statement. In that regard, it makes no difference to me --- nor to the game --- what archetype the reader has in mind. Truly, I am all about reducing confusion in the game, not perpetuating it, and were the difference in archetype important to the context, I would certainly make it clear. I try to avoid burdening a new player with too many technical terms, and at the same time, I refuse to use, "healing defender," or, "a defender who heals," or, "an empathy controller," each and every time I refer to the concept of healing because it is cumbersome and I must keep to a very limited word count. This doesn't mean I don't believe in the long list of strengths offered by Defenders and Controllers. I've so far published two feature articles on this site, and posted I think maybe two essays here in the forums, and none of them detail these archetypes --- or any others! YET. But were it important to the context of my article or essay, I would certainly make that distinction. Why you worry so much about the people who come into the game with preconceived notions, I don't know. Has it occurred to you that no matter what they were told, their fool-hardiness and arrogance would be the same? I truly have been in the game for 4 1/2 years, and I usually run Blasters or Defenders. I truly have used the word healer when broadcasting for a dedicated empath, or when I am running a dedicated empath, looking for a team. But never, in all that time, across three servers, have I run into any objection, arguement or complaint about the word healer until now. Now, I dont read the player forums, except on this site. The official COH website, yes, I read the news, announcements, the Scoop, and related player feedback. But I just don't have time to dredge through the player forums. But the last I checked, according to the official CoH website, the word "healer," was still in their spell-checker.
I don't know how much clearer I can be on the subject. I refuse to beat it into the ground any further. You are certainly entitled to feel the way you do, as am I. The game is big enough for all us.
I think I see where we actually differ. You feel there is a time when only a "healer" is needed. I get this from what you say, that you actively look for a healer. I activly look for defenders, be it dark, rad, trick arrow, or empathy. My prefered defenders though are rad and kin. The debuff from rad make healing unneccesary as does the speed boost from kin. Your right though it is a matter of opinion. BUT, its up to us who love the game to help those stuck in the WoW mindset break from that mentality, be it healers or end game.
The best chance to do that is on sites like this one where people come and ask for advice before they even try the game.
I didn't realise you have done articles on here about the game and looked them over. I haven't read the lusca one yet because I've taken her down many times. The cape one is a good bit of information though and think you did a good job with it.
Don't worry about responding again, I see your point and agree that there is room for different points of view. I just hate to get kicked from a team because someone feels that my trick arrow defender is worthless because it has no heal.
just in general. i've been seeing more and more comments and people kinda ignoring the statements or going along with it.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
actually... disturbing is someone setting themself up as an expert on COH/V, writing items for NEW players, and getting basic information wrong, especially the re-education of the eq/wow mindset.
THAT is disturbing that someone who thinks they're so right can be so wrong. and i'm sorry; but that is not personal playstyle or whatever... originally, people had to be broken of the holy trinity from eq, since eq preceeded coh. then wow came along (after coh) and people again had to be re-educated that there is no holy trinity AND healers are not a class and not mandatory and that the term 'healer' is derogatory and only used by noobs to coh.
no, that is not personal anything, that is how coh/v is... again, don't believe me, go look at the official coh website and peruse the defender and controller forums...
honestly, if you're going to mess this up repeatedly AND defend it; then please, recuse yourself from being the mmorpg.com "expert" on the game and especially from writing guides for new players. some things in games can not be caveated with "imo" "imho" "personal XYZ"... unless you want to preface it with, "hey, i'm new and i don't really understand this or that, so imo..."
ran an itf a couple of nights ago, and the closest we had to a healer was my fire/rad troller and um, i remember to hit the pbaoe heal um... after whatever eb we're fighting has died, maybe. why? because i suck? well, maybe it's because the green numbers REALLY weren't needed. pets were about all that would die and that's really not very hard to fix.
healing is not mandatory for anything, no one needed to back up a main healer, no main healer needed.
the word 'heal' itself can be stricken from the lore, except as a nice aside, and yes i mean empaths too, their buffs are FAR more valuable than their heals.
unless you're playing with people that just DON'T know how to play. there is no reason any AT can NOT control their own aggro. if you insist on rushing headlong into a huge group of purples, instead of allowing debuffs/buffs/taunts/whatever to be set... that is your own fault. if anyone HAS a heal, they should let you die for playing like a fool.
and i'm talking about 6+ man missioning/tf/sf here. we did that itf with no wipes and i'm NOT a healer and i'm usually throwing out holds and immobs on my fire/rad and making sure we get a decent amount of folks in the AM range, in addition to churning out personal & imp damage. which IS what a troller is there for... they're called "controller" or "defender" because... that's what their buffs/debuffs/utility powers are for.. there is NOT an AT labeled as healer.
like i said, go throw around the word "healer" on the defender and controller forums, like you do around her, and as sensitive/"always right" as you portray yourself around here, you'd be getting your feelings hurt in a heartbeat.
heals/healer/etc those terms/words have no place in city of. no one that's played any amount of time, and is actually considered a vet/good player, throws around "heal" words in regards to coh. much less a main healer and someone backing up a main healer? seriously, what the????
edit: no, seriously, copy/paste your articles where you go on and on about healing (like that lusca/gm one), onto the defender and controller forums and link it here, so we can see how well received that healer term is taken. healers are not a part of coh. period.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
there is not a good/veteran/experienced controller or defender which would ever represent themself as a healer. ESPECIALLY if you're writing to new players --- they should be the ones to whom we explain there are no healers, there is no holy trinity AND that those "support classes", aren't support classes at all (aside from the fact that they would be called support ATs). coh/x actually doesn't use the term 'class', it does use the term 'at' however.
as a controller, i really don't need anyone, especially once i get my pets (although most AT powersets can say the same... a "supporter" shouldn't be able to, eh?). controllers and defenders have a lot more utility than other ATs; the fact that they buff/debuff doesn't mean they're support. support for what? for blasters, scrappers and tankers that don't know how to play? what does an ill/storm or a fire/rad need from someone else? what are they supporting? unless you mean they're buffing weaker characters and that's support? how that tank can't function without crying "AM/SB/ETC MEH"? i wouldn't call that a support class, it would sound like to me that that tank/scrapper/whatever can't play their toon without a lot of help from other people... whereas the "support AT"s are doing fine on their own.
yes, that COULD be playstyle; but it is to the point that trollers/fenders are NOT the priests from eq/wow and out there supporting the "main players" (i.e. dps/tank -- ahhh i see that holy trinity sneaking into play with this 'support character' thinking...). that IS something new players to coh NEED to be educated on so that they can start to grow and mature into coh itself and be contributing players instead of leeches or liabilities due to their limited exposure and 'in the box" eq/wow thinking.
many of us can attest that buffing and debuffing are FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR more needed on an itf/lgtf or even just missioning (doesn't even have to be high level), than healing.
what good is that healing going to do when everyone is mezzed or drained from a bunch of carnies or malta? now, what good is the buffing/debuffing/holds/confuses/etc that defenders and controllers do, against those mobs? nothing like a rikti guardian buffing your team, or a mortificator putting the smackdown on a zombie, only to rez it and smack it down again (confuse powers).
something like oooooooo cm/ra on everyone MIGHT be a tad bit (and when i say tad bit, here, i mean TONS) better than everyone getting mezzed and deep in the red, and the "healer" trying to pop a break free and do a bunch of heals before everyone is dead.
things like THAT are just a small part of why healing is a bleh thing. "oh but that's high level". hmm i run into the lost and their mezzes in the sewers. guess it's not that high level of a problem after all?
yes, there will be rare exceptions to every rule where some type of "heal" power is more needed than X buff/debuff/etc.
say you're duo/trio-ing. maybe the "playstyle" there necessitates a dedicated healer? having played scrappers and other "non healing ATs", i have no problems soloing lots of things without finding myself needing to carry a lot of greens in my tray. yes, that could be playstyle. yes, that could be the player. regardless, if playstyle dictates a healer is needed and everyone is fine with that... that's those players... that is not something that should be taught to new players, since it reinforces the eq/wow way of thinking.
as the saying goes, it's the exception that proves the rule but it's not the rule itself. the rule itself is that buffs/debuffs/holds/confuses and everything else a defender/controller can bring to the table are worth far more than the heals. how about perma-phantom army? hami can hit them, can anything else? so there's you some sweet tanking and dps, send them in and let them get aggro.
healing/healers are not things experienced people in COx talk about. again, if i'm wrong, please go to the official defender/controller forums and present yourself as an expert on the topic and talk about healer this and healer that. ESPECIALLY main healer and someone to back up the main healer??? the list of things i keep covering (and others) are WHY this 'healer' thinking is just not applicable to this game... ESPECIALLY for new people -- they need to learn the difference early on, so they don't go "oh that's a healer, i hate playing healers" AND so they're not playing a scrapper/blaster/tanker and constantly whining cuz they can't play unless they have a pocket emp&kin buffing them and them whining whenever they don't have ALL the buffs... cuz they just can't play without them.
ignoring facts doesn't change their truth. going "blahblahblah" when something bursts your bubble of always being correct, that also does not change the truth.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
why would you need a "dedicated healer"?
why?
that itf i mentioned... i'd have to say that the phantom army of my teammate was probably our dedicated empath.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Why?
Because not everyone in the game is as perfect a player as you, apparently, or as knowlegeable and experienced. But that doesn't neccessarily make them undesirable team-mates.
And I've said all I'm going to say about this to you, Damien. /Ignore
Why?
Because not everyone in the game is as perfect a player as you, apparently, or as knowlegeable and experienced. But that doesn't neccessarily make them undesirable team-mates.
And I've said all I'm going to say about this to you, Damien. /Ignore
seriously, it's a matter of educating new players (and it seems players that claim to have played for 4+ years as well), that healing is INFERIOR to the other items that fenders/trollers bring to the table. how often is there a sewers run that has people yelling "heals"? right there is the place where new players can be broken of their old habits from eq and wow.
let's take JUST illusion... if i confuse (and have the purp that makes confusion contagious), i've just set half the spawn fighting itself. i throw out PA and they're getting aggro. i throw out mr skeery to the edge and i'm fearing (and damaging if i put a damage proc) stragglers. my personal bodyguard is throwing out a phantom decoy and they're both flying around zapping folks. if i figure confuse doesn't have the purp, then i just recast confuse a few times to get some infighting going.
that's just four powers from a single set and i've mitigated 90% of the damage... why does anyone need heals?
if we're lower level, i still have blind and confuse and that's knocking out at least two mobs at a very low level, JUST using illusion. it's not personal preference, it's not player ability -- it's being educated on how ATs work and what everyone CAN or CAN'T do.
this isn't personal preference. this is how the game is played. again, go to the official troller/fender forums and prove me wrong, i welcome it. those are the only two ATs blue-side that could be considered to be "healers" and that term is a very high insult to pretty much everyone that plays those ATs... of course, there are the 'eternal noob' and 'new player' exceptions, and people that have only played games like eq/wow and they just have never been shown HOW buffs/debuffs are better.
i'm sorry, but if you're the coh correspondent HERE, and have played over 4 years... AND you're right to new players, you really should have, in your goals, to educate them on COH items. not just carrying over jargon from non-coh games (healers, classes, support roles, holy trinity, etc, and yes, you may not have used all those exact words; BUT you have heavily implied them -- just saying "support class" carries the implication of holy trinity ESPECIALLY to a new player who relates "support" to some sort of healing priest/druid from their previous mmo experiences."
/ignore damien doesn't change any of this, at all. i'm sorry that you caveat everything wrong with "hey it's personal preference", i honestly am sorry about that; because that really doesn't change facts.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
From my short time playing, I've seen healers make a diffence in living in dieing in most of my groups. having a healer ups survivablity which in turn ups overall damage. Sure you could put in another DPS but that would lower surviabity which lowers overall dps, Dieing and walking back is harder than having a healer to keep you alive. A healer doesnt have to be FULL heals though, they can have a off powerset for damage to provide some damage while healing.
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then play a "healer" class and read up on that class in the defender or controller forum, and learn for yourself why "healer" isn't a word used in COH. at a very low level, say an empath, might only have a couple of heals in empathy.
that changes real quick. if an empath is in the teens and just healing... that player doesn't know how to play an empath
OR
or that empath is on a team with a bunch of people that don't know how to play their AT, and instead of contributing in a meaningful fashion, that empath is stuck perma-healing idiots who think that scrappers/blasters/tanks/whatever are supposed to rush in and aggro the entire 8-man spawn (8 man team in their teens is my example), instead of those other players playing intelligently. thusly our empath is pigeon-holed into constant healing because of the selfishness and/or stupidity of play by other people.
maybe at level 1-6 there is a 'healer class'; but now that i'm thinking of it... that would be sewers' level and i don't ever see a sewers team crapping out cuz they didn't get a lvl 1 or 2 "healer". so i guess i'm going to have to stick with my "there are no healers in coh" statement.
healing is the weakest of the abilities available to defenders and controllers. it honestly is.
but DON'T take my word for it, go check out the official forums yourself, and if you think all of those people are wrong; then, play on teams that don't go looking for healers or the holy trinity, on teams with people who have a lot of vet badges (although that's certainly not a guarantee).
a lot of lowbies can be vets, but they can also be folks on trials fresh from wow. what ups dps is (using most any controller example) having an entire mob held and debuffed, while the team is buffed and no one is worried about healing, because no one is taking any amount of damage.
and again, all my statements go on the caveat that the players are at least average skill (or the majority of the team is at least average skill with just a couple of not-so-good players), and have taken the time to learn the basics of the game (pulling, breaking los, understanding how the various ATs work, looking at the powersets/powers of their teammates, communicating on their team, controlling aggro, mitigating their own aggro, etc... the basics).
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?