Short Guide for the everyday team.

Yellowshoes · December 2008

@Force's Short Guide to: Being remembered.

This is what it appears to be, a short guide on how to be remembered by your teammates as a good player and as someone they would want to team with again.

1. Tactics tactics tactics, smart play=win

2. Be friendly and not an idiot.

3. Lead if it is needed, but FOLLOW if that's what is needed instead. It never hurts to suggest an alternate means to an end but always remember, there are MANY means to an end.

4. Please please please I cannot stress enough, LEARN your build, your AT, your power sets, use them wisely and appropriately.

If you are:

-Tank-

1. Get Taunt, I don't care if your attacks "anger mobs"

2. You may not be leading, but that shouldn't stop you from being the first one to say "herding" or "let me group them up" or even "dive in!" on occasion.

-damage-

1. You are dps, you do most of the teams damage. So. DO ALOT OF DAMAGE. PS: You can't do alot of damage when you're dead, so take that into account before you go and do something you shouldn't. Dear scrappers: you are not tanks. Dear Blasters: you are not scrappers. You may have the build, but remember your limits and don't make the Rezzer rez you 5 bajillion times because you're an idiot.

-support-

1. Control, yeah you can do that right? Good. But don't forget about that secondary set. Debuff/buff your little heart out. Got mez protection? Well wow, maybe that blaster could use it. If you don't plan to use those buffs on your team then by all means, play a different AT...please. If you have pets: keep a leash on them, or dismiss them in between mobs if you have to.

__________________

TheRedPill · December 2008

Hurrah! Such basic advice, yet the concepts somehow elude many (hopefully new) players.

I choke everytime I see in Broadcast, "I'm a something-or-other Tank. I just hit level 16 (or 26, or some other outlandish number). Do I take Taunt or X ?"

The answer is always the same: "OMG, you don't have Taunt yet?"

One thing I would add to your list is, "Stay with the Team." Remember all those movies when the group splits up and goes separate ways in a cave, a haunted house, an alien clone factory or whatever? You know what's going to happen. Somebody gets eaten. Stay together. The moment you walk in the door, the spawns are programmed to your teams' size, and the difficulty setting of the mission owner. Maybe your uber toon can handle it, but the rest of the team needs you.

damian7 · December 2008

herding? how many mobs can a tank herd nowadays? and how is that time efficient or just not aggravating/boring to the rest of the team, especially if "the team" can kill more mobs than the tank CAN herd, in the time it takes the tank TO herd?

R_D_A · December 2008

There are times and places for herding, sometimes once, sometimes twice in a mission, it's all about pulling to a safer fight point or an advantage point like a bottle neck or a place that offers more range so that blasters etc don't have to be too close. I normally do it when I am coming towards a group near a blind corner or within perception range of another group. In teams sometimes you don't have to worry due to the buff sets in them but then sometimes you might want to. Team wipes is a sign of an error, being the last one standing is a sign of an error and teams quitting a mission is too...but then I am talking about only herding one group or what the team can handle. AoEs tend to max at 16 for some ATs. All too often I see some tankers herding every group tight passing 5 herdpoints before reaching one. That just adds time. In 5 secs it should be herded or by the time the team get there it should be herded. If you can coil up/PBAoE/AoE on the spot.

Amarsir · December 2008

No offense, but I think general advice tends to be completely worthless. The people who are so daft as to need that tip won't read it. Those who could improve will have no way of putting it into practice. No one is going to wonder "Should I be friendly or rude? Let me check the guide!" or say "Tactics! Why didn't I think of that?"

Your "know your role" advice is better. But again if the empath doesn't think to put Clear Mind on the blaster, they won't think to read a guide that suggest that they put Clear Mind on the blaster. If you were on their team you could tell them and it might make a point.

Here's my tip, which hopefully will make an impression on someone who could use it: your assumptions are often wrong. (That's true in a lot of situations in and outside of gaming.) To get better, you need to realize when you're making these assumptions, and do so in time to change your actions.

For example, the former lead designer of CoH (and current creater of Champions Online) used to assume that he was helping becaue he was hitting buttons. People would ask him how he helped the team, and he'd say "oh I used this power and that power." But he never stopped to consider if those were powers the team needed at those times.

Some specifics:

Is your AOE aimed correctly? Cones should aim for the person in back, centered in the pack. Radius AOE should aim for anyone in the middle of the pack. And line this up while the previous power is activating.
Are you picking the right enemy target? Consider who is more troublesome: is the Rikti Comm Officer going to summon a portal, or the Sky Raider Engineer a Force Field drone? Interrupt them! Tsoo Sorcerers and Malta Sappers need to get held or stunned (or killed instantly) because they will cause major problems.Also, consider who else is targeting them. This shows particularly if you're teaming with stalkers. If they are lining up an Assasin's Strike on anything below boss, that will pretty much finish them. There's no sense in you hitting the same target.
Tank Specific - you should be changing your targets ALL THE TIME. Never hit the same guy twice in a row if there's anyone left (unless it's an AV, and sometimes not even then.) Your role is not to finish enemies off, it's to attract as much aggro as possible.
Scrapper Specific - You guys can take a little aggro. Are you protecting yourself by standing next to the tank at all times? Or are you watching the perimiter for enemies that are aggro'd but not taunted, and may be targeting the squishies?
Are you picking the right teammate target for your buffs? Often it's obvious that you should get everyone. But consider more limited recharge powers, like Fortitude. +Damage, +Accuracy, +Defense. Who should get that? The Tank? Well his damage base is lower than most, so you get the least bang from the buff. And his defenses are already the best, so he shouldn't need it. If he can't keep up with aggro he's taking then yes. Otherwise, pick a Blaster who can use all 3 buffs the most effectively.My Force Field controller has Power Boost. But I can't bubble everyone on a full team during the 10 seconds it's active. So I have to decide who will need it the most, by watching how likely they are to take damage.
Have you slotted for enough recharge on your best powers? The more effective it is, the more often you want to be using it. Speaking of that Fortitude power, I mentioned picking 1 target. But if you've slotted effectively you can keep 3-4 covered at all times.
Are you using the right power at the right time? The biggest mistake I seen controllers make is there AOE immobilize. It's like they are again assuming "well I have a button so it must help." Most immob powers in this game also give the enemy -knockback. So if say your scrapper relies on knockdown to keep enemies from hitting back, and then you immobilize those enemies, you just killed your scrapper.And it's a problem even aside from the -kb. If you immobilize them, are you sure they're standing where you want? The worst cases I've ever seen, and I've seen it repeatedly, is when a tank is herding and the controller uses an immob while the group is running over. Sometime's it's just miscommunication, but sometimes they're thinking "this is my power, I'm going to use it." Don't be that person.This applies in a lot of situations. Is that Rain of Fire going to be used effectively, or will it just make the enemies run around? Is your earthquake really necessary when the other players already put down an Ice Slick and an Oil Arrow? Maybe save it for the next group or until those wear off, or at least position it differently.
Are you standing in the right place? Using the surroundings is very effective. If you have a "placed effect" (like Ice Slick for example) you don't even have to be exposed to the enemy to use it. Stand behind a corner and use your 3rd person view to target them.The rest can fire in the air to land someplace safer. Open with a fireball in the air and land behind the corner. You just herded better than the tank could. (Though you'll probably need help surviving, so make sure your team was actually ready for that.) If you are a blapper (melee blaster) don't stay in melee. You should have hurdle and Combat Jumping, so queue up a melee attack, jump past the guy, and land out of his melee range.And the more obvious consideration - if your teammates have buffs or heals that work PbAOE, don't make them chase you. Run toward them if you need a heal, or want to be in the Force Bubble.

These are questions hopefully that will lead to specific action. And like I said I still have room for improvement on them myself. It's just a specific application of that general question: what assumptions have I made that I didn't even realize?

Beatnik59 · December 2008

I think all the advice in this thread is good, but here are some of my observations:

1) Each team is different. Unless you group with the same folks all the time, the composition to the teams will vary. Some are rather melee heavy, while others are heavy on ranged. Some don't have a proper tank, while others don't have much DPS. The best players will learn how to compensate for the various strengths and weaknesses of the team.

2) Groups of MOBs too big? Try gaining an advantage by pulling periphery units, foe TP, or have the team hide around a corner so that you have the ground in your favor.

3) Everyone should be mindful of what is going on with everyone else. Someone small and nasty (like a scrapper or stalker) needs to keep an eye on the ranged guys and healers so that they don't get bushwacked in melee. Healers need to keep an eye on the entire sidebar and be able to predict who is going to need the heal next. It might be a good idea for corruptors and blasters with knockback to use these powers to get your tanks, brutes, and scrappers out of trouble if necessary.

4) If you have a restorative inspiration you don't need (like a catch a breath or respite), and you see someone who could use it, run over and drag it on to them. Chances are you'll get another one real soon, and a well-given blue or green is a whole lot easier than an aqua after the fact.

5) Mastermind pets and other pets need healing too. If your heal is recharged and nobody needs it, consider throwing one to a pet.

damian7 · December 2008

communication on the team > debuffs > buffs > "healers"/"heals"

TheRedPill · December 2008

To paraphrase Jon Wood, where is it written that forum posts --- or in this case, many of the replies --- must be steeped in sarcasm and intolerance?

I think some of you missed the very first line of Yellowshoes' post. Let me quote it for you: "@Forces Guide to: Being remembered."

This "general" advice, which included rather specific pointers, was not meant for those who would never read a forum post. You all are here and if some of your points are any indication of your in-game attitudes, you might benefit by affording your team mates a little more patience, tolerance and consideration.

For those players who are interested in cultivating a larger-than-life but benign in-game presence, this is the Guide to follow. Not everyone wants to be known as the Uber Trashwipe who "owns" the server and has no time for the less informed. Some of us prefer a true leader personnae.

As for the usefulness of herding, the limitations on Taunt only limit herding for the inexperienced player. Note please, that I used the word, "inexperienced," as opposed to, "clueless," "stupid," or "lame." There is a difference. True, the days of a Tank being able to herd upwards of 200 mobs at a time are long gone. Does that mean herding is impossible? Hardly.

I can vouch for the value of herding myself.

The setting: Chimera mission, on Unyielding, just two weeks ago. The team, just two peeps, an AssaultRifle/Energy Blaster (me), and a Spine/SuperReflexes Scrapper, both Lev 50. We figured we couldn't take Chimera by ourselves; we didn't try. But the rest of the bads in there were going to boost our Prestige and Influence counts. Without even the benefit of a Tank's agro, this Scrapper was able to round up large numbers of mobs (20-30) in short order to make spectacular use of the Blaster's Long Range Missile, Auto Fire (machine gun) and Flamethrower Powers. Imagine what a Tank could have a done...a well built Tank that is, played with experieince and some atunement to the status and moods of his team mates --- the earmark of a true leader.

Wikkedbowtie · December 2008

Personally I just hate seeing any one AT being told they "HAVE" to take a power in thier powersets. A tanks armors are one thing, but the only take that HAS to take taunt is a willpower or invuln. The other tanks primaries have damage auras that with just one of two taunt enhancements an hold aggro just fine.

The key is to know what your toon is capable of.

Therefore, the best advice you can give anyone is to PLAY YOUR CHARATER!!!!!!

I know its tempting to get into the whole PL/farming scene, but fight the urge!!!!

There is nothing wrong with farming, It's pretty much the only way to afford most IOs, but the farming for levels just gives us more noobs. I've even kicked an SG mate off of a team because he had PLed the character from 1-30 and had no idea what his powers could do. I was rounding up mobs with my fire tank and he was TKing them all out of my attack range and caused three team wipes. He eventually thanked me for showing him what an idiot he was.

damian7 · December 2008

all i can say is "wow" and look out if you have a different opinion.

damian7 · December 2008

Originally posted by TheRedPill

To paraphrase Jon Wood, where is it written that forum posts --- or in this case, many of the replies --- must be steeped in sarcasm and intolerance?
I think some of you missed the very first line of Yellowshoes' post. Let me quote it for you: "@Forces Guide to: Being remembered."
This "general" advice, which included rather specific pointers, was not meant for those who would never read a forum post. You all are here and if some of your points are any indication of your in-game attitudes, you might benefit by affording your team mates a little more patience, tolerance and consideration.
For those players who are interested in cultivating a larger-than-life but benign in-game presence, this is the Guide to follow. Not everyone wants to be known as the Uber Trashwipe who "owns" the server and has no time for the less informed. Some of us prefer a true leader personnae.
As for the usefulness of herding, the limitations on Taunt only limit herding for the inexperienced player. Note please, that I used the word, "inexperienced," as opposed to, "clueless," "stupid," or "lame." There is a difference. True, the days of a Tank being able to herd upwards of 200 mobs at a time are long gone. Does that mean herding is impossible? Hardly.
I can vouch for the value of herding myself.
The setting: Chimera mission, on Unyielding, just two weeks ago. The team, just two peeps, an AssaultRifle/Energy Blaster (me), and a Spine/SuperReflexes Scrapper, both Lev 50. We figured we couldn't take Chimera by ourselves; we didn't try. But the rest of the bads in there were going to boost our Prestige and Influence counts. Without even the benefit of a Tank's agro, this Scrapper was able to round up large numbers of mobs (20-30) in short order to make spectacular use of the Blaster's Long Range Missile, Auto Fire (machine gun) and Flamethrower Powers. Imagine what a Tank could have a done...a well built Tank that is, played with experieince and some atunement to the status and moods of his team mates --- the earmark of a true leader.

silly me, i was under the impression that we were talking about full teams or teams of like 6-8, not duos.

yes, you can find a combination of numbers of players and ats and powersets to prove/disprove any point made about the game. congratulations.

if you're on a large team, say 6-8 players.... on the whole... waiting for that tank to run around for a minute+ means the rest of the team (assuming average+ playing ability and players that actually took good powers and aren't running some type of MAN build) is standing around bored, especially when they can burn thru the mobs a LOT faster than watching the tank be all manly and try to herd everything, every time, ad infinitum.

and i'm certain i left out some nuance that will allow my statements to be contradicted.

i play to have fun. watching someone go "hey watch me, i'm great, i can make people follow me and pack together tightly. you guys just stand there for a few minutes and i'll be back"... that just isn't fun for me.

TheRedPill · December 2008

Originally posted by damian7

if you're on a large team, say 6-8 players.... on the whole... waiting for that tank to run around for a minute+ means the rest of the team (assuming average+ playing ability and players that actually took good powers and aren't running some type of MAN build) is standing around bored, especially when they can burn thru the mobs a LOT faster than watching the tank be all manly and try to herd everything, every time, ad infinitum.
and i'm certain i left out some nuance that will allow my statements to be contradicted.
i play to have fun. watching someone go "hey watch me, i'm great, i can make people follow me and pack together tightly. you guys just stand there for a few minutes and i'll be back"... that just isn't fun for me.

Apart from broad generalized statements based solely on your own presumptions, I find your remarks tolerable. Please remember though, that just because you get bored and antsy doesnt mean everyone does, and just because in your experieince, the tanks go overboard with the herding, doesn't mean all tanks do. A good tank will do it when it is called for, no more, no less. Sorry you've not had the pleasure of being exposed to better players.

damian7 · December 2008

Originally posted by TheRedPill

Originally posted by damian7

if you're on a large team, say 6-8 players.... on the whole... waiting for that tank to run around for a minute+ means the rest of the team (assuming average+ playing ability and players that actually took good powers and aren't running some type of MAN build) is standing around bored, especially when they can burn thru the mobs a LOT faster than watching the tank be all manly and try to herd everything, every time, ad infinitum.
and i'm certain i left out some nuance that will allow my statements to be contradicted.
i play to have fun. watching someone go "hey watch me, i'm great, i can make people follow me and pack together tightly. you guys just stand there for a few minutes and i'll be back"... that just isn't fun for me.

Apart from broad generalized statements based solely on your own presumptions, I find your remarks tolerable. Please remember though, that just because you get bored and antsy doesnt mean everyone does, and just because in your experieince, the tanks go overboard with the herding, doesn't mean all tanks do. A good tank will do it when it is called for, no more, no less. Sorry you've not had the pleasure of being exposed to better players.

great tanks are still providing a service that a LOT of teams simply don't need - herding.

i've played all the ATs, and have the benefit of a large group of coalitions across several servers (repeat offenders), to draw upon. the biggest requirement is to get 8 players together to start an ITF or LGTF. when anyone is building a team, it's "i need anyone level X or higher that wants to do such-n-such". we never recruit with "hey we're doing Y and need these certain ATs..."

that's the great part of COx. i can play a blapper, or a scraptroller, an offender, a scranker, etc, and it's still a viable build. heck, i can pretty much make a MAN build and still be a viable contributor to TF/SFs.

but i normally avoid being exposed to players that like to keyhole folks into "healer" roles and such.

if you want to be known -- be polite. you don't have to type anything when you're on a team in COx. you're not on voice, and it takes time to type something. if you're not enjoying the team, thank them and leave.

and i don't enjoy the "i'm mother talking down to you because i know so much" that you seem to portray inbetween the meek and mild remarks. the city guides on this site need to be fact checked some. but that's an aside and to be expected if people are coming from a 'better than you' attitude.

honestly, whenever you hit certain levels, you receive notifications that certain contacts wish to speak with you, or some contacts will tell you to return at X level. GMs can be taken down by a single team, and are taken down by single teams on a routine basis. The generalizations made in the correspondent articles are kinda like some of the eve ones -- they give out iffy information that give new players an erroneous impression of the games based upon the limited experience of the writers. Game articles really should be run-by a few vets of whichever game before being put to press; especially when the wrong information is common knowledge to vets.

R_D_A · December 2008

From different parts of the world you get different ideas on herding. Should I consolidate aggravation that is what I will call minimum herding. Tending to all that is there is, is herding. I am not from the US though.

From reading the US Tanker section though I think they should take their mind of off damage sustainability for a bit and think more in terms of, what the enemy can do, taunt control and threat mechanics. If you look at the EU server there is not a lot of "wtf is wrong" going on because there literally isn't.

TheRedPill · December 2008

This has become a herding thread because Damian wants it to be. (I think that's what he wants anyway - after the ramblings of his last response, I'm not sure.) The OP mentioned herding as one of several ways to minimize risks to a team, and I agreed with him. And as a Blaster, if I am getting beat on by the mobs, and the Tank on team does not have Taunt and is otherwise engaged so far ahead of me that nothing else will reach (remember, distance is a blaster's friend and a Tank is melee), then how is he going to pull the mobs back under his control? To say, "If he is a good Tank, it won't happen," is silly. Szhit happens. How you overcome it is what sets you apart and makes you "remembered" (the object of the OP's post). So Damian of course is quite welcome to continue in his belief that Tanks don't need Taunt and herding is worthless, and I will to continue to uphold their merits. You just won't find us on the same team. So. Damian, come on back and get yor last word in, and we will put this thread to bed.

Wikkedbowtie · December 2008

I've played many tanks and taunt is not necessary if the tank knows what he is doing in most cases. You just described a blaster who jumped the gun. If the blaster is drawing aggro its as much the blasters fault as it is the tank. Saying its because the tank doesn't have taunt is just a cop out for your own poor play.

I will admit, ON SOME PICK UP GROUPS, having a tank is good, as is having someone who has a couple heals. BUT, if you have a regular group that shouldn't be needed.

TheRedPill · December 2008

Agreed Wikked.

My guess is there isnt a blaster around who hasnt pulled more than he can handle from time to time or somehow drew the focus of agro on himself. Such trial and error comes from getting to know your toon. And sometimes mistakes really do happen. I've been known to let fly a shot that was cued up, or target a separate group from the tank. Such a mistake happens to me rarely nowadays but it can still happen, and back when I was a newer player, it was not uncommon. Thus I don't hold it against other new players as long as they learn from it. Then there are times you get wandering patrols, surprise spawns, inexplicable adds or even ambushes from behind, and nobody knows about it except those who are back there. As I said before, shzit happens. And in those instances, whether there is blame to lay or not, I'd much rather be teamed with a tank who has taunt. Otherwise, that tank is going to have to come running straight at me with his train of agro to collect the mob determined to beat lil ol' me into the ground.

Please keep in mind, that this is a personal preference. It might be the personal preference of a lot of folks, but it is still only a personal preference. You and your friends apparently feel differently. Well, I've yet to be teamed with a tank without taunt that didnt end in disaster. That is my experience.

Also not everyone plays with the same people all the time; in fact, most players dont. Therefore, you can't depend on exceptional team composition and experieince. If - if - if... Well, if everyone were perfect players, no one would bother reading player guides, would they?

I can understand that htere is a faction of players who feel taunt is uneccessary, especially since it was nerfed way back when. But in my opinion, it is still a necessary component for team support. The tank can do just fine without it, but many team mates depend on him for it.

Wikkedbowtie · December 2008

I admit it can help at times. I use got taunt after I got granite on my stone tank because my mobility was no longer good enough to keep up with surprise spawns.

I played with the Repeat Offenders for quite a while and am still a member even though I don't hang out with them much anymore. They are an example of what you can do with a "suppot" class. Heck, they ran STF with a team of defenders and 2 energy/energy blasters tanking Recluse. New players need to learn that they can't just take the three empathy heals, medicine pools and no blasts to be a good player. In fact, I kick those people because they are not really contributing. Green numbers are pretty, but if no one is taking damage due to other buffs they are worthless.

damian7 · December 2008

Originally posted by Wikkedbowtie

I admit it can help at times. I use got taunt after I got granite on my stone tank because my mobility was no longer good enough to keep up with surprise spawns.
I played with the Repeat Offenders for quite a while and am still a member even though I don't hang out with them much anymore. They are an example of what you can do with a "suppot" class. Heck, they ran STF with a team of defenders and 2 energy/energy blasters tanking Recluse. New players need to learn that they can't just take the three empathy heals, medicine pools and no blasts to be a good player. In fact, I kick those people because they are not really contributing. Green numbers are pretty, but if no one is taking damage due to other buffs they are worthless.

exactly.

there is no "healer" mindset in coh for vet players. aggro maintenance IS on the part of the individual player. i've been on teams with way too many new blasters who rush head long into an 8-man mission spawn throwing out their blasts and shouting "HEALS" even before their first shot lands.

those idiots die, and might be kicked from the team if they feel that every troller/fender is there only to heal the blaster.

that's not personal preference, that's good player vs bad player.

really, the best advice to be given is "forget other MMOs you've played, this game is NOTHING like them." but people can't just do that, so you have to caveat it with "there is not a dps/heal/tank holy trinity, there are no healers, control your own aggro, learn how to pull/break los, be a team player & communicate to your teammates until you each get a feel for how the others play."

there's quite a few "super teams" (not to be confused with super groups) that run with only defenders or controllers. i believe even some that were only scrappers or stalkers. anything with Top Doc, is normally a super team, likely to be composed of not only a single AT, but a single pri/sec and even 90% of the powers already picked for you.

personal preferences aside... any guides or "official/veteran" type statements, should never pigeon hole playing.

what i mean, is that you can pick any single at, even pick gimped pri/sec and require everyone to be THAT... and run a full team of 8, and with good PLAYERS, you can steamroll your way thru most everything.

edit: typos

damian7 · December 2008

Originally posted by TheRedPill

This has become a herding thread because Damian wants it to be. (I think that's what he wants anyway - after the ramblings of his last response, I'm not sure.) The OP mentioned herding as one of several ways to minimize risks to a team, and I agreed with him. And as a Blaster, if I am getting beat on by the mobs, and the Tank on team does not have Taunt and is otherwise engaged so far ahead of me that nothing else will reach (remember, distance is a blaster's friend and a Tank is melee), then how is he going to pull the mobs back under his control? To say, "If he is a good Tank, it won't happen," is silly. Szhit happens. How you overcome it is what sets you apart and makes you "remembered" (the object of the OP's post). So Damian of course is quite welcome to continue in his belief that Tanks don't need Taunt and herding is worthless, and I will to continue to uphold their merits. You just won't find us on the same team. So. Damian, come on back and get yor last word in, and we will put this thread to bed.

i said tanks don't need taunt? really?

you have opinions that apply to certain situations. bravo. if i'm playing with RO, i rarely ever team with the same people; but for the most part, the folks in RO are good players.

know your role. play your part. communicate to your team. those are generalized statements that apply to everything in COx and if you're playing with (just) decent players (much less good/great), then it really doesn't matter the team make up. like i've said before, it's "hey we need a minimum of 6/7/8 to start this".

the versatility of the game is what makes it great. personal preferences and opinions aside -- don't pigeon hole the players and make them play the way YOU feel they should. harping constantly about healrers, or X AT needs Y powers... no, they don't.

you can make a MAN build, up to 50 (easily the most gimped of builds/playstyles, even moreso than a petless MM), AND be a viable contributor to your team, IF you're a good player.

you can make the most robust build and be a complete liability to every team from lvl 1-50, IF you're a bad player.

this game is THAT versatile.

making guides harping constantly on healer this and healer that, ESPECIALLY a guide for someone new... makes them think eq/wow/all the other cookie cutter games, and puts them in the mindset. that mindset includes "we need healz0rzZ" and tank/dps/heals.

educating ourselves and others, especially new players, to the robustness of the ATs and the games... easily gets them out of that eq/wow mindset.

but if you have supposed veteran players and they're harping on eq/wow items... how do you expect the newer players to understand that this is a completely different game?

typing something (and it's wrong) doesn't make it correct, no matter how much you condescend or pretend that it's truth. truth is truth, and good players are good players.

damian7 · December 2008

Originally posted by Yellowshoes

@Force's Short Guide to: Being remembered.

This is what it appears to be, a short guide on how to be remembered by your teammates as a good player and as someone they would want to team with again.

1. Tactics tactics tactics, smart play=win
communicate. are we pulling/herding/bumrushing? who is doing what in that scenario.

2. Be friendly and not an idiot.
did you just rush into a room with 40 enemies and aggro'd all of them? and now others are responsible for keeping you alive? that's an idiot. let him/her die.

3. Lead if it is needed, but FOLLOW if that's what is needed instead. It never hurts to suggest an alternate means to an end but always remember, there are MANY means to an end.
communication! if others are constantly having to adjust their playstyle because YOU keep getting in trouble; then you're not leading or following, you're just being a pain for others and ruining their fun so you can try to be da big manz.

4. Please please please I cannot stress enough, LEARN your build, your AT, your power sets, use them wisely and appropriately.
you've got time while the group is forming and pre-first mish -- check out the other characters and what powers they have -- this ties back into communication. learn how your toon can play and if you solo that character -- you don't radically change on a team... there's no reason for you to constantly be going into the red (health) on a team, if you have learned to play well enough to stay in the green solo. just because you're on a team, don't go stupid.
If you are:
-Tank-

1. Get Taunt, I don't care if your attacks "anger mobs"
by the same token -- if you're not the tank, learn to manage your aggro. learn to break line of sight. use game mechanics to your advantage and don't be a burden to the tank because you think it's YOUR right to play however you want to play. those other players on your team also want to play how THEY want to play -- you all have to make compromises in order to be better than the sum of your parts.

2. You may not be leading, but that shouldn't stop you from being the first one to say "herding" or "let me group them up" or even "dive in!" on occasion.
see number two above - be friendly, not an idiot. if you're a tank and you're in constant need of heals and buffs. you may want to rethink your group play. where are those heals and buffs when you're solo? be friendly, be thoughtful, DON'T be leroy jenkins.

-damage-

1. You are dps, you do most of the teams damage. So. DO ALOT OF DAMAGE. PS: You can't do alot of damage when you're dead, so take that into account before you go and do something you shouldn't. Dear scrappers: you are not tanks. Dear Blasters: you are not scrappers. You may have the build, but remember your limits and don't make the Rezzer rez you 5 bajillion times because you're an idiot.
tank? damage? support/rezzer? THERE IS NO HOLY TRINITY. learn this and live it. scrapper is damage?
so my ill/storm who has tornado (highest damage power ingame), 3 phantom army (who can be perma'd and can't be hurt by anything short of hami), my floating bodyguard and his phantom decoy, my Mr. Skeery (who has a damage proc), my snow storm (also has damage proc), lightning storm, confuse, hurricane (which debuffs and pushes mobs back, doesn't throw them, so look, i can position them for lightning storm and Mr. Skeery), and the host of other damage-dealing powers that i bring to the table... not only does tons of damage; but makes the enemy attack each other and/or very weak and vulnerable...
that's just using an ill/storm as an example. dps isn't just for scrappers, nor is tanking just for tankers.
-support-

1. Control, yeah you can do that right? Good. But don't forget about that secondary set. Debuff/buff your little heart out. Got mez protection? Well wow, maybe that blaster could use it. If you don't plan to use those buffs on your team then by all means, play a different AT...please. If you have pets: keep a leash on them, or dismiss them in between mobs if you have to.
if i have pets... do what? if you're a tanker/scrapper turn off your armors until after you start fighting. same same. learn the game before making statements like you've thrown into this post please. my fire imps just aggroed some mobs that our team had moved REAL close to? oh well, guess i'll use the stuns/disorients in fire to mitigate damage, and oh look, the FIRE IMPS have the aggro....

__________________

Yellowshoes · December 2008

Ya know Damien. You seem to have your head on your shoulders pretty well, most of your comments are fairly spot on. Unfortunately alot of what you are saying makes me think that you are a solid player who for some reason hasn't had the luxury of teaming with other good players.

In the olden days herding for over a minute was beneficial as there was no agro cap. Nowdays putting that into perspective from a tanker aspect means that a tank that herds shouldn't take more than 10 seconds to herd. On a regular team yes a tank can be overlooked in favor of more damage or support, having taunt when the average teams takes out mobs incredibly fast isn't always needed. Any scrapper can run in and take an alpha from mob for a seconds before the rest of the team takes out the mob. But. When it comes to the more prestigious events where because of the setting or who/what you're fighting a scrapper can't do that. A WELL BUILT tank who pay attention to the situation at had will always need taunt. If you don't agree with that then I won't try to change your mind, you do things one way and I do them another enough said.

If I said this: 1. You are dps, you do most of the teams damage. So. DO ALOT OF DAMAGE. PS: You can't do alot of damage when you're dead, so take that into account before you go and do something you shouldn't.

And you automatically felt that I was saying that only scrappers and blasters can do dmg then you're dead wrong.

And you also stated: if i have pets... do what? if you're a tanker/scrapper turn off your armors until after you start fighting. same same. learn the game before making statements like you've thrown into this post please. my fire imps just aggroed some mobs that our team had moved REAL close to? oh well, guess i'll use the stuns/disorients in fire to mitigate damage, and oh look, the FIRE IMPS have the aggro....

Which by some standards could classify you as one of "those" controllers who thinks they are better than everyone because of their diversity. Once again you over though something that was said (which I've noticed you do...) I was not making a statement which didn't hold into account the fact that fighting in tight quarters and getting unwanted agro from somewhere was a controller and his pets fault. If that would be the case then your tank is doing it wrong and not keeping a lid on potentially dangerous situations before they inevitably dismantle the team.

To each his own, bear in mind that generally those that make comments about other peoples experience level in the game tend to be a little shy on experience themselves. I'm about as far from new as it gets, get a better head on your shoulders and quit throwing around ridiculous accusations when you have no idea what the score actually is. This is a game, the purpose of having forums for any game is NOT drama. Forums are ment to be of assistance to players new and old alike. Being thoughtful on a topic is perfectly acceptable and welcomed. Acting childish while trying to act smart at the same time isn't attractive.

Wikkedbowtie · December 2008

Have you posted the things you have here in the Official CoX forums?

Because if you had you would have heard the same thing Damian has been saying here.

damian7 · December 2008

Originally posted by Yellowshoes

Ya know Damien. You seem to have your head on your shoulders pretty well, most of your comments are fairly spot on. Unfortunately alot of what you are saying makes me think that you are a solid player who for some reason hasn't had the luxury of teaming with other good players.
you're right, RO is full of noobs that have no clue whatsoever what they're doing. my bad. i'm just making my statements based on playing with people that never once say "we need X AT before we can go", they only say, "we need Y number of people before we start". and then they proceed to plow thru the tf/sf/mission/whatever. i hope no one ever has the horrid experience of playing with such horrible players that deny a holy trinity exists in coh. oh, that would probably include everyone outside of RO, that posts on the official forums as well.
your post actually contains "tankers" "dps" (and in dps you say don't make the rezzer have to rez you a lot... really? we have dedicated rezzers? oh wait that ties into) "support"
you smartly didn't label 'support' as healers. but um, i'm pretty sure the official rezzer won't be a tank or dps, so it's either rezzer/support = healer, or we now have an even more useless character type -- someone that can only rez.
lay off the holy trinity. like i said in the thread i started - that misconception about coh has been going along on this forum for FAR too long. and now we have an "official correspondent" who can't stop spouting off "healer"??????????????????????????????????????
whomever is ok'ing that person's work, needs to JUST go to the official coh forums and start spouting off about healer this and healer that AND THEN they can see firsthand, without every logging onto the game, that COH HAS NO HEALERS. and without even posting, they can probably find a lot of guides and posts that explain WHY coh has no "healer".
In the olden days herding for over a minute was beneficial as there was no agro cap. it's not the fire tank herder days, hasn't been for a long long time.
Nowdays putting that into perspective from a tanker aspect means that a tank that herds shouldn't take more than 10 seconds to herd. On a regular team yes a tank can be overlooked in favor of more damage or support, having taunt when the average teams takes out mobs incredibly fast isn't always needed. Any scrapper can run in and take an alpha from mob for a seconds before the rest of the team takes out the mob. But. When it comes to the more prestigious events where because of the setting or who/what you're fighting a scrapper can't do that. A WELL BUILT tank who pay attention to the situation at had will always need taunt. If you don't agree with that then I won't try to change your mind, you do things one way and I do them another enough said.
you don't NEED any one class for most game play in coh. you honestly don't. notice i didn't say ever, there's always an exception, like say ooo hami. lgtf and itf don't need a tank, just to name a couple that i've done this week, where we had no tank and no dedicated "healer". and i could just as easily be talking about red-side (which no one seems to do, even though coh/cov have been a single game for a long time now.) but, high level controllers, scrappers, stalkers, MMs, SoA, etc... that kind of makes me look at the world from more than just a "controller" viewpoint. just a little, ya know?

If I said this: 1. You are dps, you do most of the teams damage. So. DO ALOT OF DAMAGE. PS: You can't do alot of damage when you're dead, so take that into account before you go and do something you shouldn't.
that would go back to other things you said "be polite, don't be an idiot". bumrushing a huge group and expecting others to keep you alive is stupidity, and i elaborated on that. what was wrong with what i said?
And you automatically felt that I was saying that only scrappers and blasters can do dmg then you're dead wrong.
must not be anyone with pets, cuz they need to keep a tight leash on them? i'm replying to things you did say, not things you could've said, right? sorry for making an assumption based upon your pointing out THREE types of toons - tankers, dps, support. hmmm
And you also stated: if i have pets... do what? if you're a tanker/scrapper turn off your armors until after you start fighting. same same. learn the game before making statements like you've thrown into this post please. my fire imps just aggroed some mobs that our team had moved REAL close to? oh well, guess i'll use the stuns/disorients in fire to mitigate damage, and oh look, the FIRE IMPS have the aggro....

Which by some standards could classify you as one of "those" controllers who thinks they are better than everyone because of their diversity. but it's ok for you to make those comments about any pet class? really? defenders have pets too. blasters even have one semi-pet (but it doesn't move).
Once again you over though something that was said (which I've noticed you do...) I was not making a statement which didn't hold into account the fact that fighting in tight quarters and getting unwanted agro from somewhere was a controller and his pets fault. If that would be the case then your tank is doing it wrong and not keeping a lid on potentially dangerous situations before they inevitably dismantle the team.
keep a tight leash on my pets? why, because you're saying a tank can keep all the aggro. dismiss my pets if i can't keep a tight leash on them? why, because i'll be the one getting the aggro. what about my statement are you saying is incorrect?

To each his own, bear in mind that generally those that make comments about other peoples experience level in the game tend to be a little shy on experience themselves. I'm about as far from new as it gets, get a better head on your shoulders and quit throwing around ridiculous accusations when you have no idea what the score actually is. This is a game, the purpose of having forums for any game is NOT drama. Forums are ment to be of assistance to players new and old alike. Being thoughtful on a topic is perfectly acceptable and welcomed. Acting childish while trying to act smart at the same time isn't attractive.
what you're saying, turn it right back around on yourself. i'm doing exactly what you did in the op. except i'm correcting 'holy trinity' silliness and making statements that new players SHOULD know, to get them away from the eq/wow mindset.

to sum it up, if you don't want me to do as you're saying that i do - "over think things" "read into things" whatever it is...

then don't divide your article into "here's a list of generic things and now here's THREE sections: tank, dps, support".

the mmorpg correspondent has been getting my eye a lot lately, because of the way she harps on how she's consciously choosing the most concise words in her articles to communicate to new players... YET, those words are reinforcing the concepts found in eq/wow/etc, which do NOT exist in COH. there are no healers, there is no holy trinity, coh doesn't even have CLASSES, it has ATs, and i'd expect someone who is consciously choosing the most concise words AND has played coh for over 4 years BUT never played eq/wow (notice i normally put etc/whatever somewhere with those two because a LOT of games use the holy trinity and such and so i don't have to play semantics or guess what game someone has played), to understand without having to be corrected constantly.

anyone espousing the holy trinity or other items which only a brand new player SHOULD be making mistakes on, needs to be reminded that it's not how coh is designed.

play how you want, by all means, no one is saying you HAVE to play how the game is designed, or using good sense or whatever. play however you want. please do.

but don't write any type of advice, and expect your advice to be good because you can say "imo" "personal playstyle" etc. if you write advice and it's not good advice, or it's advocating incorrect things, expect it to be critiqued.

but like i've been saying... go to the official coh forums and put the op there... see how many people "assume" you're talking about the holy trinity and mock you ruthlessly until I start to cry.

Yellowshoes · December 2008

1. There is no such thing as a holy trinity, just about any random team with any random setup works just fine for 99.9% of every situation you might come across. Hell you don't even need a tank for most AVs now days. I have NEVER, not here not on the official forums, not anywhere for that matter made a single comment that said anything whatsoever about a mythical holy trinity or stated anything about what a perfect team would consist of. As much as people want it to exist it doesn't. As always everything I say is personal opinion based off my time playing since the first day that CoH was live. (which I was there for)

2. There is also no such thing as a healer set, not even empathy. If you play the empathy set for the single or primary purpose of putting back the health that mobs take from your team then you probably shouldn't be playing that set. I also prefer most other support sets over empathy, which is the main reason why I only choose to play mine only during Hamidon raids or the 13 MSTFs I've completed with him.

3. We seem to be bumbling over each others words saying pretty much the same thing but from a different angle.

4. The "rezzer". The resurrection form of a power comes in MOST (not all) standard support sets. If you don't have one fine that works too. I was in no way calling the "rezzer" a healer on any level. Most people that play support sets with a rez take it just to help out a fallen teammate in the middle of a hair situation (instead of what they should be doing, using the rest of their support abilities to help those still standing) Not that rezzing someone in combat is bad mind you. As always situation dictates.

damian7 · December 2008

Originally posted by Yellowshoes

1. There is no such thing as a holy trinity, just about any random team with any random setup works just fine for 99.9% of every situation you might come across. Hell you don't even need a tank for most AVs now days. I have NEVER, not here not on the official forums, not anywhere for that matter made a single comment that said anything whatsoever about a mythical holy trinity or stated anything about what a perfect team would consist of. As much as people want it to exist it doesn't. As always everything I say is personal opinion based off my time playing since the first day that CoH was live. (which I was there for)

2. There is also no such thing as a healer set, not even empathy. If you play the empathy set for the single or primary purpose of putting back the health that mobs take from your team then you probably shouldn't be playing that set. I also prefer most other support sets over empathy, which is the main reason why I only choose to play mine only during Hamidon raids or the 13 MSTFs I've completed with him.

3. We seem to be bumbling over each others words saying pretty much the same thing but from a different angle.
4. The "rezzer". The resurrection form of a power comes in MOST (not all) standard support sets. If you don't have one fine that works too. I was in no way calling the "rezzer" a healer on any level. Most people that play support sets with a rez take it just to help out a fallen teammate in the middle of a hair situation (instead of what they should be doing, using the rest of their support abilities to help those still standing) Not that rezzing someone in combat is bad mind you. As always situation dictates.

i obviously agree with what you're saying here. i honestly didn't see what you've typed earlier as that, and i guess i took you for being another redpill with her um eccentricities about the game.

apologies on that, m8.

edit:

i don't know what i'm apologizing for... you're just NOW saying all those things, you sure didn't say it previously.

oh, you never said scrappers and blasters were the only dps? others can do it as well? really? i sure do see blaster and scrapper by name in your damage section below. nah, i wasn't misreading items you were saying, someone must've finally told you to stop supporting your sg mate cuz it was making you look like a noob. i wasn't making up or reading into anything you were typing. the OP is the type of post that needs correcting on these forums.

-damage-

1. You are dps, you do most of the teams damage. So. DO ALOT OF DAMAGE. PS: You can't do alot of damage when you're dead, so take that into account before you go and do something you shouldn't. Dear scrappers: you are not tanks. Dear Blasters: you are not scrappers. You may have the build, but remember your limits and don't make the Rezzer rez you 5 bajillion times because you're an idiot.

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