you have it a little backwards. it's not that we want to be average joes.. in fact, we WANT to be heroes. the problem with theme park games is that the NPCs tell you you're a hero... but you live in a world where EVERYONE is a hero, thus you are really just an average joe. in a sandbox game, you live in a world full of average joes, but you have the ability of actually becoming a hero. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_Online
Keep on dreaming.
Your world is going nowhere, while my changing lore is there IN and OUT of the game where indeed I am a hero with my avatar.
I can read a book on the train, as a matter of fact, dozens of books and comics on this lore.
Fully designed lore - as background stories - by professionals is so much better than ideas invented by frustrated teenage kids.
And I had this feeling a LONG time: I rather enjoyed more the CD versions of D&D pencil/paper than the very amateurish trials of some would be (half drunken) gamemasters I assisted 25 years ago.
sure.. you're a "hero" but what does that actually mean? you're a hero to the game's NPCs, but no player would consider you any more a hero then they are. in a sandbox MMO, you can actually make a name for yourself.. not by having uber purplez and walking around in a sweet looking outfit that you raided hundreds of hours to get, but by accomplishing things other players weren't able to. for example, in Mortal Online there will be one-time-kill bosses and non-repeatable quests, which would certainly make anyone to kill one of these bosses or complete one of these quests go down in the in-game history books. players get to become a part of the games history and lore, rather than having the lore tell them who they are and what "others" (NPCs) have done before them.
if you're so concerned with being perceived as a hero by the game's NPCs, you may as well be playing a single player game. if you actually want to make a name for yourself in a persistent online RPG world, then a sandbox game is your best bet.
Do you realize that in a sandbox game, 90% of the players won't have a name for themselves? And probably we will be just an average joe just like in every MMO?
uh... yeah. the only way you can have "heroes" is by also having average joes. playing a sandbox game doesn't automatically make you a hero, but it gives you something to work towards. i guess if you don't want to have to work for anything, you can play a theme park game, where they give you a sword and tell you you're a hero destined to save the world.. although it kinda kills it when they tell the guy next to you the very same thing.
I like how the only posts that get any attention are the ones that flame someone. Twice I and another person told you all of a game where you could have a sandbox experience in a skill-based environment where you could even change the landscape.
Don't you look at all the posts or only read what you want to?
I , myself, have been looking for this MMO for years and the closest one I have found that has 90% of what you are looking for is an indie game called Wurm Online.
Are the whiners against sandbox all a bunch of mmo-virgins? Almost 4 years ago since I enyojed a MMO more than a week. Just playing a few hours week/month to talk with the guildies.
I want corpse runs back!
______________________________ The Sceptics, yes they're special but we've need them to.. I guess. And if they're put more effort MMORPG.com can create a 'Team Sceptic' and send them to the Special Olympus.
I like how the only posts that get any attention are the ones that flame someone. Twice I and another person told you all of a game where you could have a sandbox experience in a skill-based environment where you could even change the landscape. Don't you look at all the posts or only read what you want to? I , myself, have been looking for this MMO for years and the closest one I have found that has 90% of what you are looking for is an indie game called Wurm Online. Its free to try. Try Wurm! www.wurmonline.com/ There, did you see it this time? Now quit bad-mouthing each other and try it.
i think they ignored it because wurm is such a crappy game, they probalby thought you were joking..
if you want a good sandbox, try darkfall or mortal online.
I like how the only posts that get any attention are the ones that flame someone. Twice I and another person told you all of a game where you could have a sandbox experience in a skill-based environment where you could even change the landscape. Don't you look at all the posts or only read what you want to? I , myself, have been looking for this MMO for years and the closest one I have found that has 90% of what you are looking for is an indie game called Wurm Online. Its free to try. Try Wurm! www.wurmonline.com/ There, did you see it this time? Now quit bad-mouthing each other and try it.
i think they ignored it because wurm is such a crappy game, they probalby thought you were joking..
if you want a good sandbox, try darkfall or mortal online.
Hilarious statement as neither of those games are available to "try", or even been played to determine if they are "good".
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I like how the only posts that get any attention are the ones that flame someone. Twice I and another person told you all of a game where you could have a sandbox experience in a skill-based environment where you could even change the landscape. Don't you look at all the posts or only read what you want to? I , myself, have been looking for this MMO for years and the closest one I have found that has 90% of what you are looking for is an indie game called Wurm Online. Its free to try. Try Wurm! www.wurmonline.com/ There, did you see it this time? Now quit bad-mouthing each other and try it.
i think they ignored it because wurm is such a crappy game, they probalby thought you were joking..
if you want a good sandbox, try darkfall or mortal online.
Hilarious statement as neither of those games are available to "try", or even been played to determine if they are "good".
i guess i should have said "wait to try" but for a minute i thought you'd be smart enough to realize they weren't out and assume that's what i meant... silly me.
Crappy eh? Well yes, like Eve it can be dull, just crafting away and yes the animations are few and far between. But its what the game is capale of. You can make everything, Be what you want, and even pvp on the Wild server.
Right now, the wife and I are carving out our own niche in the wilderness. We have a village deed and are building all the buildings, planting the harvest and terraforming the land to suit our desires and needs. Lastly, we are clearing the area of hostile creatures. Its not the best game, but its better than WoW and 99% of the other clones out there trying to be an MMO and forcing you on a linear path that the devs made.
But, that's just me.
If you aren't actively part of the solution, you have no right to complain about anything.
Its not the best game, but its better than WoW and 99% of the other clones out there trying to be an MMO and forcing you on a linear path that the devs made.
fair enough.. hopefully darkfall, mortal online, and earthrise will deliver what theyh promise so we won't have to settle with only the few sandbox games out there.
Its not the best game, but its better than WoW and 99% of the other clones out there trying to be an MMO and forcing you on a linear path that the devs made.
fair enough.. hopefully darkfall, mortal online, and earthrise will deliver what theyh promise so we won't have to settle with only the few sandbox games out there.
Yes, I am axious and apprehensive about Darkfall myself. The open pvp worries me.
If you aren't actively part of the solution, you have no right to complain about anything.
All of us who want something like this, would others play it if we were to build it at text level? I think I have a plan for a MMO that would answer many of the issues that you mention, however, I don't have 10M sitting around to make my ideas come to life. I'm sure my ideas aren't even that original. The question I would ask is why don't we have what we so obviously want?
I think I could create the mechanics and get it working at a ansi level, and then move it to a 2d and then perhaps move it to 3D if I could get funding. The question is of course how to make it happen.
Is it because technically it can't be done? Or that the MMO's are being designed by businessmen instead of gamers? If only we could find someone who was a gamer that was able to get the funding to make this happen. Anyone know someone with 10-20M they want to risk on a MMO? I've got great ideas, but no cash just like everyone else
So riddle me this, All of us who want something like this, would others play it if we were to build it at text level? I think I have a plan for a MMO that would answer many of the issues that you mention, however, I don't have 10M sitting around to make my ideas come to life. I'm sure my ideas aren't even that original. The question I would ask is why don't we have what we so obviously want? I think I could create the mechanics and get it working at a ansi level, and then move it to a 2d and then perhaps move it to 3D if I could get funding. The question is of course how to make it happen. Is it because technically it can't be done? Or that the MMO's are being designed by businessmen instead of gamers? If only we could find someone who was a gamer that was able to get the funding to make this happen. Anyone know someone with 10-20M they want to risk on a MMO? I've got great ideas, but no cash just like everyone else
Don't take this the wrong way but great ideas are like assholes, everybody has them. If I had a dime for every time I heard someone (including myself) say "I've got great ideas", then I would have the 20 million you seek. That's not to say you don't have great ideas or you shouldn't start building your game. I here in the office working on mine. However, no one outside your rich uncle is going drop 20 mil on you, especially if you have no track record. I suggest you start building it and get some like minded people to help you. Half the battle is getting started. Then maybe (and I mean maybe) if you can get far enough that you have something good to show investors you can get some funding. But remember, investors want their money back with substantial profit. If they don't think you are building something that will attract customers then they aren't going to invest in you.
... as long at they put Hardcore mode (I.e., you get only one life and death is permanent or until you delete and reroll and start all over), and it's advertised when some other player highlights your toon... I need to feel like my huge ego must be expressed as a godlike player since I want to escape the reality that I"m such a real looser in life. So if I have a toon in any mmorgp i play it must be advertised that it's a "Hardcore" player.
What are you talking about? You are not replying to his statement, you're just trying to insult him.
All i know is. When someone insults someone. They have LOST the argument.
So riddle me this, All of us who want something like this, would others play it if we were to build it at text level? I think I have a plan for a MMO that would answer many of the issues that you mention, however, I don't have 10M sitting around to make my ideas come to life. I'm sure my ideas aren't even that original. The question I would ask is why don't we have what we so obviously want? I think I could create the mechanics and get it working at a ansi level, and then move it to a 2d and then perhaps move it to 3D if I could get funding. The question is of course how to make it happen. Is it because technically it can't be done? Or that the MMO's are being designed by businessmen instead of gamers? If only we could find someone who was a gamer that was able to get the funding to make this happen. Anyone know someone with 10-20M they want to risk on a MMO? I've got great ideas, but no cash just like everyone else
Maybe I can help you come up with some ideals for how to get something moving along. First, and this MIGHT be the dumbest thing ever said, you might try designing something using a simple mod program through another game. Like Oblivion, or one of the RTS games out, or such. I know that trying to make things work out through the limitations of a mod can be....well....suck and fail, but these mod-builds do the one thing you CAN'T do...and that is provide a semi-stable 3-d engine to begin working with.
There are a few freeware game engines out there...I think. Its been a long time since I researched this (being an old game-designer myself, though never for software). I know for a fact there are some that aren't SUPER expensive...and could be used to get the foundation of what you want to see in place. If you can use your ideals and produce a solid concept through a "less-than-perfect" means then you can at least have something to provide a potential investor or company with and go from there.
The most important thing is getting your ideal into some form of function. That form might suck...but if it FUNCTIONS, then people can at least toy around with your ideals and see what they think. Hell, who knows...you may even draw in some major code-monkeys to the project once they can see your ideal in action on some level. I mean, there are tons of guys out there working on things like the SWG Emu or the thousands of other MMO emus that have some decent background working with code. IF you can get a large enough group of volunteers together, you can build on what you have.
...Developers weren't responsible for eliminating travel times and death penalties. Players were, and specifically, the hardcore powergamers. They were the ones who'd rather take the "cloner express" than have to walk back to town, totally breaking immersion. But you see, immersion wasn't a concern for these folks, because they only cared about being über. Because we had death penalties that worked in SWG. If you got killed, you had to have your wounds healed in the hospital by a player doctor, have your gear repaired or replaced by crafters, and had to relax in the cantina to heal battle fatigue. But then we heard the complaints, "I hate having my character have to watch entertainers, because I only care about combat." Or, "I hate how these crafters get credits without having to earn them through combat...they're too rich." And then the nerfs came, and the game became more linear and loot based, and all because of the powergamers who really weren't interested in the things that made the sandbox work... ...That is why the freedom has been taken from us, because we haven't learned to mitigate our desire to "be the best" for the sake of the things we love.
Well written posts Beatnik59.
But the thing is. Didn't the powergamers expose weaknesses in the game design? I think developers did the right thing in changing the game, but they changed it the wrong way. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The vocal achievement gamers forced change. If they didn't change the game that way they would be the ones leaving and complaining on MMORPG.com. But I realy think that the devs found out that the achievers were the majority. Hence they have been catered to.
Now maybe that the powergamers have gone on to other games. Maybe sandboxes might have a shot again?
In that last bit there you sound a bit like V.I.K.I. from iRobot. *Shudders*
I am not sure Asherons Call can be called truly sandbox as there were certain templates you could go for which worked much better than the others. But it was a great game and set a standard for lore and story progression few have since lived up to.
We are seeing a combination of factors that have led to where we are today.
We the players are older and more world weary, we expect more and what was amazing years ago is now just repetition to us.
The MMO industry has dumbed down its games in line with the rest of the computer games industry. Marketing research showed early teens buy more than adults, so our games became made more for that demographic. This research then fulfilled its own prediction as adults bought less games finding the new ones too immature for them.
Remember adventure games? They still exist but the genre is lucky to get one release a year with some serious money behind it. Now only having poor graphics and sound that genre will find it hard to ever win a new audience. But not so for teen market games which have funds lavished on them, how can any genre survive when in comparison it is the poor mans game? Our old MMO genre the MMORPG one, is now dying out, but don’t worry the new generation of MMO graphics will be superb even if the gameplay is crap.
We are in the twilight years now; RP is fading away, a players own sense of achievement has been replaced by medals, loot and titles. People still think the next big MMO will be the solution to all the problems we have with the current ones, but in reality they just keep getting worse. Enjoy these imperfect creations while you can, as what is to come you will not even recognise as a MMORPG.
how does crying over these forums really affect it? Really his entire post is basically saying "i want a sandbox, so i will use syarcasm to insult non sandbox while promoting my favorite type" I'm actually pro sandbox, just the QQ on these forums really kills me.
so if someone is pissed off or at least aggrivated by the direction of MMORPGs... he shouldn't post his frustrations on a website called MMORPG.com
oh i know your wonderful advice is to what? wait and hope the developers pull thier heads from thier asses? or maybe the classic "hey if you don't like it go design a MMO" ... because im sure everyone just has 10-20 million a team of developers and the overall knowhow just laying around.
Yeah, but you act like this post says anything new or unique or fresh, it's just the same post recycled over and over.
Niether does yours, the role of the person complaining about the repetitive nature of posts regarding the state of MMOs has also been filled before.
Face it, if you were to delete every non completely original post of the forums, the number left would probably be in the 3 digit range or less. At least the OP made his argument/complaint humorous.
Hey what happend to that big guild that you were promoting on the AoC forum?
I can and I do. Because every neat thing that set sandboxes apart from linear games was turned into junk because of ambitious powergamers who wanted to win an unwinnable game. And I'm not actually sure that you are as bad as how I claim. That last post of yours is somewhat divided on that score, but answer me this Ghost12; where are you willing to draw the line when it comes to being "the best?" Because in my experience, whenever ambitious players have sought to win the unwinnable game, they engaged in practices that seriously compromised the experience for others. See, developers weren't responsible for creating automated unattended portal bots in Asheron's Call. They weren't responsible for creating AFK entertainer buffbots in SWG. But both of these practices compromised the games of large segments of the casual crowd who wanted to have a place in the game world. The arguments were like this: "I pay for the right to have an unattended bot if I want to," or "I can't wait or depend on a live player to give me these things I need reliably." To the ones who created unattended alts, the spirit of the sandbox game was less important than the results: the power to be über. Developers weren't responsible for eliminating travel times and death penalties. Players were, and specifically, the hardcore powergamers. They were the ones who'd rather take the "cloner express" than have to walk back to town, totally breaking immersion. But you see, immersion wasn't a concern for these folks, because they only cared about being über. Because we had death penalties that worked in SWG. If you got killed, you had to have your wounds healed in the hospital by a player doctor, have your gear repaired or replaced by crafters, and had to relax in the cantina to heal battle fatigue. But then we heard the complaints, "I hate having my character have to watch entertainers, because I only care about combat." Or, "I hate how these crafters get credits without having to earn them through combat...they're too rich." And then the nerfs came, and the game became more linear and loot based, and all because of the powergamers who really weren't interested in the things that made the sandbox work. Because you see, the powergamers know the dirty little secret behind these games; the combat engine and loot tables don't care whether you play in the spirit of the game or not. The things that make a character über have nothing to do with doing the things that maintain the sandbox. And so, if someone wants to be "feared," and "the best," it is in their interest to break the sandbox if it gives them an advantage. If you are right, and it is inevitable that players will always want to play to win no matter the cost, then right there you have your reason why sandbox is dead and not coming back. Because these ambitious folks put their own ambition ahead of the good of the game thereby ruining the game for all others by creating untennable situations no other player could cope with. If you don't believe me, then you never played as an entertainer in SWG trying to outcompete a 24/7 script who has no desire for credits or interaction; or as an enchanter trying to be of use to people who get their enchantments done with slave alts. While you may be correct that sandbox gives you freedoms that linear doesn't allow, we have shown as players that we cannot use this freedom well. That is why the freedom has been taken from us, because we haven't learned to mitigate our desire to "be the best" for the sake of the things we love.
You bring up some interesting points but I still don't think it's fair to completely blame the players.
When a game is being made they have to know that people will do anything they can to abuse the system to get ahead. I am in no way condoning cheating of any kind but I wouldn't blame the failure of a game on people who legitimately play it 8 hours a day. I also cannot fault somebody for wanting to be the best. If there is any truth to psychological egoism then people will always act in their own best interest.
While I don't blame the game developers for people creating bots, I do blame them when they decide to stick they're head in the sand and pretend the problem does not exist (e.g. Lineage 2). As for changing game mechanics like death penalties or travel times, I don't see how you can blame anyone but the game developers. Yes people complain and whine and threaten to leave but ultimately the players cannot force the developers hands. The game developers made a decision based on a short term desire to keep a few subscriptions for people who the game was never really designed for.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
h... yeah. the only way you can have "heroes" is by also having average joes. playing a sandbox game doesn't automatically make you a hero, but it gives you something to work towards. i guess if you don't want to have to work for anything, you can play a theme park game, where they give you a sword and tell you you're a hero destined to save the world.. although it kinda kills it when they tell the guy next to you the very same thing.
Why? As long as i didn't hear it .. that is ok. It works in SP games (since everyone is essentially playing the same copy), it will work in MMOs.
We are in the twilight years now; RP is fading away, a players own sense of achievement has been replaced by medals, loot and titles. People still think the next big MMO will be the solution to all the problems we have with the current ones, but in reality they just keep getting worse. Enjoy these imperfect creations while you can, as what is to come you will not even recognise as a MMORPG.
That is just clinging to the past and won't embrace the future. I started with Kingdom of Drakkar, moved onto UO beta, then EQ.
MMO today .. like WOW .. is fast superior, with more content, and more entertainment. The sooner you realize that MMOs are games that entertain and no one wants to RP, the better. achievement, loots & titles are great ... it gives an illusion of achievement and that is what driving the psychology of these games.
And MMOs evolve just like any other genre. I have no problem if Blizzard's next MMO has no recognized factor compared to say UO. In fact, it is exciting of where Bioware is taking TOR. It is essentially trying to put teh best of SP games (stories, choices, companions ...) into a MMO. Will it be a "pure" MMO like diku mud, probably not. But who cares ... i will be there if it is a good GAME.
Comments
Keep on dreaming.
Your world is going nowhere, while my changing lore is there IN and OUT of the game where indeed I am a hero with my avatar.
I can read a book on the train, as a matter of fact, dozens of books and comics on this lore.
Fully designed lore - as background stories - by professionals is so much better than ideas invented by frustrated teenage kids.
And I had this feeling a LONG time: I rather enjoyed more the CD versions of D&D pencil/paper than the very amateurish trials of some would be (half drunken) gamemasters I assisted 25 years ago.
sure.. you're a "hero" but what does that actually mean? you're a hero to the game's NPCs, but no player would consider you any more a hero then they are. in a sandbox MMO, you can actually make a name for yourself.. not by having uber purplez and walking around in a sweet looking outfit that you raided hundreds of hours to get, but by accomplishing things other players weren't able to. for example, in Mortal Online there will be one-time-kill bosses and non-repeatable quests, which would certainly make anyone to kill one of these bosses or complete one of these quests go down in the in-game history books. players get to become a part of the games history and lore, rather than having the lore tell them who they are and what "others" (NPCs) have done before them.
if you're so concerned with being perceived as a hero by the game's NPCs, you may as well be playing a single player game. if you actually want to make a name for yourself in a persistent online RPG world, then a sandbox game is your best bet.
Do you realize that in a sandbox game, 90% of the players won't have a name for themselves? And probably we will be just an average joe just like in every MMO?
uh... yeah. the only way you can have "heroes" is by also having average joes. playing a sandbox game doesn't automatically make you a hero, but it gives you something to work towards. i guess if you don't want to have to work for anything, you can play a theme park game, where they give you a sword and tell you you're a hero destined to save the world.. although it kinda kills it when they tell the guy next to you the very same thing.
I like how the only posts that get any attention are the ones that flame someone. Twice I and another person told you all of a game where you could have a sandbox experience in a skill-based environment where you could even change the landscape.
Don't you look at all the posts or only read what you want to?
I , myself, have been looking for this MMO for years and the closest one I have found that has 90% of what you are looking for is an indie game called Wurm Online.
Its free to try.
Try Wurm! www.wurmonline.com/
There, did you see it this time? Now quit bad-mouthing each other and try it.
If you aren't actively part of the solution, you have no right to complain about anything.
Are the whiners against sandbox all a bunch of mmo-virgins? Almost 4 years ago since I enyojed a MMO more than a week. Just playing a few hours week/month to talk with the guildies.
I want corpse runs back!
______________________________
The Sceptics, yes they're special but we've need them to.. I guess.
And if they're put more effort MMORPG.com can create a 'Team Sceptic'
and send them to the Special Olympus.
i think they ignored it because wurm is such a crappy game, they probalby thought you were joking..
if you want a good sandbox, try darkfall or mortal online.
i think they ignored it because wurm is such a crappy game, they probalby thought you were joking..
if you want a good sandbox, try darkfall or mortal online.
Hilarious statement as neither of those games are available to "try", or even been played to determine if they are "good".
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
i think they ignored it because wurm is such a crappy game, they probalby thought you were joking..
if you want a good sandbox, try darkfall or mortal online.
Hilarious statement as neither of those games are available to "try", or even been played to determine if they are "good".
i guess i should have said "wait to try" but for a minute i thought you'd be smart enough to realize they weren't out and assume that's what i meant... silly me.
To lachrymoseQQ:
Crappy eh? Well yes, like Eve it can be dull, just crafting away and yes the animations are few and far between. But its what the game is capale of. You can make everything, Be what you want, and even pvp on the Wild server.
Right now, the wife and I are carving out our own niche in the wilderness. We have a village deed and are building all the buildings, planting the harvest and terraforming the land to suit our desires and needs. Lastly, we are clearing the area of hostile creatures. Its not the best game, but its better than WoW and 99% of the other clones out there trying to be an MMO and forcing you on a linear path that the devs made.
But, that's just me.
If you aren't actively part of the solution, you have no right to complain about anything.
If you enjoy the lore and the quests and classes, by all means, find a game you enjoy.
There are plenty out there.
But please do not tell me and the other "sandboxers" that our game play style is not valid because it is not for you. You have your game go play it.
fair enough.. hopefully darkfall, mortal online, and earthrise will deliver what theyh promise so we won't have to settle with only the few sandbox games out there.
fair enough.. hopefully darkfall, mortal online, and earthrise will deliver what theyh promise so we won't have to settle with only the few sandbox games out there.
Yes, I am axious and apprehensive about Darkfall myself. The open pvp worries me.
If you aren't actively part of the solution, you have no right to complain about anything.
So riddle me this,
All of us who want something like this, would others play it if we were to build it at text level? I think I have a plan for a MMO that would answer many of the issues that you mention, however, I don't have 10M sitting around to make my ideas come to life. I'm sure my ideas aren't even that original. The question I would ask is why don't we have what we so obviously want?
I think I could create the mechanics and get it working at a ansi level, and then move it to a 2d and then perhaps move it to 3D if I could get funding. The question is of course how to make it happen.
Is it because technically it can't be done? Or that the MMO's are being designed by businessmen instead of gamers? If only we could find someone who was a gamer that was able to get the funding to make this happen. Anyone know someone with 10-20M they want to risk on a MMO? I've got great ideas, but no cash just like everyone else
Don't take this the wrong way but great ideas are like assholes, everybody has them. If I had a dime for every time I heard someone (including myself) say "I've got great ideas", then I would have the 20 million you seek. That's not to say you don't have great ideas or you shouldn't start building your game. I here in the office working on mine. However, no one outside your rich uncle is going drop 20 mil on you, especially if you have no track record. I suggest you start building it and get some like minded people to help you. Half the battle is getting started. Then maybe (and I mean maybe) if you can get far enough that you have something good to show investors you can get some funding. But remember, investors want their money back with substantial profit. If they don't think you are building something that will attract customers then they aren't going to invest in you.
So true. It's so hard to understand why people don't see this.
What are you talking about? You are not replying to his statement, you're just trying to insult him.
All i know is. When someone insults someone. They have LOST the argument.
Maybe I can help you come up with some ideals for how to get something moving along. First, and this MIGHT be the dumbest thing ever said, you might try designing something using a simple mod program through another game. Like Oblivion, or one of the RTS games out, or such. I know that trying to make things work out through the limitations of a mod can be....well....suck and fail, but these mod-builds do the one thing you CAN'T do...and that is provide a semi-stable 3-d engine to begin working with.
There are a few freeware game engines out there...I think. Its been a long time since I researched this (being an old game-designer myself, though never for software). I know for a fact there are some that aren't SUPER expensive...and could be used to get the foundation of what you want to see in place. If you can use your ideals and produce a solid concept through a "less-than-perfect" means then you can at least have something to provide a potential investor or company with and go from there.
The most important thing is getting your ideal into some form of function. That form might suck...but if it FUNCTIONS, then people can at least toy around with your ideals and see what they think. Hell, who knows...you may even draw in some major code-monkeys to the project once they can see your ideal in action on some level. I mean, there are tons of guys out there working on things like the SWG Emu or the thousands of other MMO emus that have some decent background working with code. IF you can get a large enough group of volunteers together, you can build on what you have.
Well written posts Beatnik59.
But the thing is. Didn't the powergamers expose weaknesses in the game design? I think developers did the right thing in changing the game, but they changed it the wrong way. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The vocal achievement gamers forced change. If they didn't change the game that way they would be the ones leaving and complaining on MMORPG.com. But I realy think that the devs found out that the achievers were the majority. Hence they have been catered to.
Now maybe that the powergamers have gone on to other games. Maybe sandboxes might have a shot again?
In that last bit there you sound a bit like V.I.K.I. from iRobot. *Shudders*
I am not sure Asherons Call can be called truly sandbox as there were certain templates you could go for which worked much better than the others. But it was a great game and set a standard for lore and story progression few have since lived up to.
We are seeing a combination of factors that have led to where we are today.
We the players are older and more world weary, we expect more and what was amazing years ago is now just repetition to us.
The MMO industry has dumbed down its games in line with the rest of the computer games industry. Marketing research showed early teens buy more than adults, so our games became made more for that demographic. This research then fulfilled its own prediction as adults bought less games finding the new ones too immature for them.
Remember adventure games? They still exist but the genre is lucky to get one release a year with some serious money behind it. Now only having poor graphics and sound that genre will find it hard to ever win a new audience. But not so for teen market games which have funds lavished on them, how can any genre survive when in comparison it is the poor mans game? Our old MMO genre the MMORPG one, is now dying out, but don’t worry the new generation of MMO graphics will be superb even if the gameplay is crap.
We are in the twilight years now; RP is fading away, a players own sense of achievement has been replaced by medals, loot and titles. People still think the next big MMO will be the solution to all the problems we have with the current ones, but in reality they just keep getting worse. Enjoy these imperfect creations while you can, as what is to come you will not even recognise as a MMORPG.
so if someone is pissed off or at least aggrivated by the direction of MMORPGs ... he shouldn't post his frustrations on a website called MMORPG.com
oh i know your wonderful advice is to what? wait and hope the developers pull thier heads from thier asses? or maybe the classic "hey if you don't like it go design a MMO" ... because im sure everyone just has 10-20 million a team of developers and the overall knowhow just laying around.
Yeah, but you act like this post says anything new or unique or fresh, it's just the same post recycled over and over.
Niether does yours, the role of the person complaining about the repetitive nature of posts regarding the state of MMOs has also been filled before.
Face it, if you were to delete every non completely original post of the forums, the number left would probably be in the 3 digit range or less. At least the OP made his argument/complaint humorous.
Hey what happend to that big guild that you were promoting on the AoC forum?
You bring up some interesting points but I still don't think it's fair to completely blame the players.
When a game is being made they have to know that people will do anything they can to abuse the system to get ahead. I am in no way condoning cheating of any kind but I wouldn't blame the failure of a game on people who legitimately play it 8 hours a day. I also cannot fault somebody for wanting to be the best. If there is any truth to psychological egoism then people will always act in their own best interest.
While I don't blame the game developers for people creating bots, I do blame them when they decide to stick they're head in the sand and pretend the problem does not exist (e.g. Lineage 2). As for changing game mechanics like death penalties or travel times, I don't see how you can blame anyone but the game developers. Yes people complain and whine and threaten to leave but ultimately the players cannot force the developers hands. The game developers made a decision based on a short term desire to keep a few subscriptions for people who the game was never really designed for.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
You said it all.
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Played:WoW, Darkfall, Warhammer, Shadowbane, Anarchy Online, Last Chaos, Runescape, Maplestory, Planeshift
Loved: Guild Wars, Eve, Darkfall
Playing:(none)
Waiting for: I don't know
h... yeah. the only way you can have "heroes" is by also having average joes. playing a sandbox game doesn't automatically make you a hero, but it gives you something to work towards. i guess if you don't want to have to work for anything, you can play a theme park game, where they give you a sword and tell you you're a hero destined to save the world.. although it kinda kills it when they tell the guy next to you the very same thing.
Why? As long as i didn't hear it .. that is ok. It works in SP games (since everyone is essentially playing the same copy), it will work in MMOs.
That is just clinging to the past and won't embrace the future. I started with Kingdom of Drakkar, moved onto UO beta, then EQ.
MMO today .. like WOW .. is fast superior, with more content, and more entertainment. The sooner you realize that MMOs are games that entertain and no one wants to RP, the better. achievement, loots & titles are great ... it gives an illusion of achievement and that is what driving the psychology of these games.
And MMOs evolve just like any other genre. I have no problem if Blizzard's next MMO has no recognized factor compared to say UO. In fact, it is exciting of where Bioware is taking TOR. It is essentially trying to put teh best of SP games (stories, choices, companions ...) into a MMO. Will it be a "pure" MMO like diku mud, probably not. But who cares ... i will be there if it is a good GAME.