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How long before we start seeing structure to the chaos of open PvP?
With open pvp (albeit with consequences) there will most certainly be random violence at release. People screwing around and just attacking anyone they see without caring since they have nothing to lose. Everyone getting used to controlling their characters and seeing what they are capable of. Guilds still getting formed and no one particularly trusting anyone else without good reason.
How long do you think it will be before things calm down and rules of engagement/politics start becoming important to the average player? I am talking specifically about player enforced structure, not game enforced.
Of particular interest to me are the opinion's of long standing EVE players, who have experience in a similar ruleset and have opinions that probably relate specifically to the question.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
Comments
Well, if the world is atleast half the size mentioned a chaos will be very.. limited.
If you have to travel 4 hours to start a gank-fest without a nearby town to resupply it's enough if you die once and someone loot you clean.
So the chaos will start when zergs have most cities around the world. if the manage to take control over it.
______________________________
The Sceptics, yes they're special but we've need them to.. I guess.
And if they're put more effort MMORPG.com can create a 'Team Sceptic'
and send them to the Special Olympus.
I see people abusing the system, It may go something like this.
Player makes an alt and uses that char to kill other players, take there loot and give it to there main char's.
And thats only one of the ways. Alot of people talk about partying together or in a guild but if you look around at all the games you mostly see soloers and those are the one that are gonna get ganked, looted, and QQed to no end.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Well it's one character per server so no alts will running around unless you pay for another account. Which of course some will do, but far from everyone.
______________________________
The Sceptics, yes they're special but we've need them to.. I guess.
And if they're put more effort MMORPG.com can create a 'Team Sceptic'
and send them to the Special Olympus.
I would imagine that those who voted "never" havn't ever played an FFA PvP MMO.
It will be only days before structure emerges for those players who are already in clans/alliances. However I voted weeks as this is how long I believe it may take for those players going into the without clans/aliiances/friends.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
i would say within days as the pvp gamers are well experienced in pvp combat for years now .. well before the WoW days... my guess is that guilds are already prepairing/making plans and strategies even well before this games release.. i'm sure of it... unless ur a player new to pvp of course (not to many of those left tho)
Even in the case that they have experienced FFA PvP games, I personally think it will be sooner than what they expect by virtue of the fact that there is also full looting. Full looting drastically alters how people approach pvp.
If you were to take a game like AC, DAoC, WoW, WAR, AoC etc and play on a FFA PvP server (I understand some of those don't have truly FFA but if they did), there is generally speaking no harm to dying to other players beside being punished in time. While this can be painful, it rarely dissuades the would-be killer from risking death as time is plentiful. Even if killed in the attempt, he can simply move to another area and kill someone else at full power, being no worse for wear. Even if he is somehow tracked down, the losses are still only time. As such FFA PvP by itself vastly favors the random killer, who can never truly feel any negative affects of his actions.
Not quite the same in Darkfall I believe. Deaths will require equipment, which may or may not take a decent amount of time to replace assuming you want to earn equipment that can net you a good chance at killing others without too much risk. A bank full of replacement equipment rather than simply stuff you couldn't carry, I expect will be commonplace.
Because of the additional risks and responsibilities to random killing, what would have been an easy choice to just kill blindly, will instead become a consideration of several factors. Clans/alliances/friends is just one of many. And by having to consider these factors... the open PvP has become structured.
I personally think anywhere from weeks to a month feels about right. I would be surprised if it was more than that, as people will have certainly felt the sting of making enemies by then.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
I voted months, but the poll is skewed and should been done differently. I think order will be established in a game like this like it has in other games, some self righteous clan will be formed to stop the gankers and will become huge because that's not all they do. Will these clans exist on all server? Probably not, but they will exist. Furthermore, once the clans are developed the gank/grifing will be directed at guilds rather than individual players. I think it will only take about a month maybe 2 before the guilds are structured enough to bring the needed order.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
With full loot I think and am hoping it will end up like eve. In eve if you are in an area controled by your corp/alliance you are relatively safe unless another corp is attacking. There is diplomacy always going on between alliances. Then if you are a lone player and you wander into a system controled by the wrong kind of corp you could get killed fast. It makes the game that much more exciting. I really hope Darkfall goes this way.
I chose months because it takes a while for these things to work out.
Plus i'm expecting lots of american players randomly pvping to try the game out while waiting for their servers...
How would you have done the poll, if you had set it up? I certainly had no intention of skewing it in anyway and i tried to cover the full span of reasonable times without overcomplicating it. I would welcome your input even if its too late to change the poll.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
Never played Eve Have you?
In a game like this Second and third accounts will become the Prefferd Methiod of gameplay VERY fast. In EvE i had 5 accounts at one point. And I was a carebear.. So dont think for a second that your silly gimmicie Penelty system is going to do you any good. ALTs will Rule the day here just like in Eve.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
Never played Eve Have you?
In a game like this Second and third accounts will become the Prefferd Methiod of gameplay VERY fast. In EvE i had 5 accounts at one point. And I was a carebear.. So dont think for a second that your silly gimmicie Penelty system is going to do you any good. ALTs will Rule the day here just like in Eve.
i heard you can make multiple chars on one server, but has to be the same race... or did i hear that wrong?
Heh, you do raise a good point about servers. When people are expecting to throw away their characters later, inhibitions do seem to go out the window. I don't think we have a definite answer yet on precisely how long it will take to get US servers up and available. If we get one by release I think you will be right about how some will behave. But if the date is still up in the air, then they may exercise more restraint since they don't know just how long they will be stuck there.
But as always there will be exceptions to the rule. If people are dead set on doing it they are going to do it.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
Depends how long individuals can stand being preyed on. Essentially it will be like prison, where gangs control the power and provide protection to the weak in exchange for favors. There will be no room for carebears, only natural selection will ensure that. In the end it will be just a few grizzled veterans who like EVE and enjoy the atmosphere of get a click or prepare to suck some .....
Watch Led Zeppelin, Darkfall Tribute
Watch Johnny Cash, Darkfall Tribute
I voted days. And I played EVE online.
First, guilds will not need time for structure themselves, they will be up at the first day, with alliances done. There are a lot of guilds preparating themselves for DFO.
Second, there are features that lower the ganking between players of same race. No one want lose faction with its race and have to walk some miles for get access to mercahnts and gear. The players will learn fast that to kill players same race is only for the more hardcore PvPers.
Third, it is a game where crafting is important, almost all gear is crafted. Soon we will see crafters trying to control the economy and these crafters will stay at the capital cities or at the guild cities, where is safer. The guilds will want to have a good relation to crafters, they certainly will want to have most crafters as guild members and at least will try not be at the crafters "never sell" list. Politics and diplomacy will rule the guilds realtionship to crafters. A lot of diplomacy.
Finally, we too need remember that the world is big and the resources aren't evenly distributed. The hot spots where there are important resources to be harvested will be where the guilds will want to build cities and hamlets and that places will be where the PvP will happen. I think at 4-8 days the most important guilds will know exactly where they want to settle and organization will follow that lines.
I don't care because it will be so thrillingly intense and brutal that it will be utterly boring. Player-created culture and rules sound great, until you remember who are the players for the most part. If players were really so creative as to make a compelling cultural arc happen in a game...but they are not. Eve is fascinating only to those who have been there long enough to have significant capital in game. The truth is that not much is really going on. It's all battles over ISK. No replacement for writing in my book.
On another level, it really is kind of disturbing how many gamers have an intense craving for murderous anarchy, a wish to be huddling together for protection and power. Human culture is almost entirely a reaction to that horrible state of affairs, a millenia-long effort to avoid precisely that way of life. It is not fun. The folks who think that it is a fun state of mind... well, hope you don't try to date my kid.
To those who will say that all games are about killing... ah yes, but we know there is a difference, otherwise why are scripted, "theme park" games so unsatisfying to this crowd? It's domination of other "real" people that turns them on. To those who say "carebear" as if it was an insult... I'll take it. I hope I never for one second forget that other players are people, and that I'd rather be cooperating with them than controlling and limiting their freedom of action. That is in fact the real world, the one that functions to provide everything you have. "Realism" is not the word for a game which is utterly based in raw power.
removed
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
The entire world is about games of power and dominating others in some form or another. To think other wise is either naieveity or wishful thinking. The world is chaotic,politics and power games give humans a sense of order, and control is an illusion we have all created. The reason people like these games is because we can act out politics in a game world, it simulates the power struggel that many of us can't in get in the real world.
The reason we throw around the word "carebare" is because most people who love "themepark" games don't PvP or only like very limited and controlled PvP where they can chose when not to get attacked, or die. In FFA, you have to be on your toes 24/7 and it makes the endless grind a little more fun.
I would of broken up the months into small intervals maybe every 3 months or so. Its not that the poll is skewed to give you a certain answer, just that the range for each answer after weeks is too big.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
And then there is the old system of hacking and stealing another char to use as your killer. And i'm still not sure how they will deal with the hackers and botters, I guess and hope they do a good job in that. There is nothing worse than those two things in a game.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Never.
DF will never have the subscription base to support the gameplay and ruleset model that's been advertised.
I'd say a couple of weeks, after everyone has fulfilled their need to "See what it's like to kill and loot someone".
_________
Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)
Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.
The entire world is about games of power and dominating others in some form or another. To think other wise is either naieveity or wishful thinking. The world is chaotic,politics and power games give humans a sense of order, and control is an illusion we have all created. The reason people like these games is because we can act out politics in a game world, it simulates the power struggel that many of us can't in get in the real world.
The reason we throw around the word "carebare" is because most people who love "themepark" games don't PvP or only like very limited and controlled PvP where they can chose when not to get attacked, or die. In FFA, you have to be on your toes 24/7 and it makes the endless grind a little more fun.
As much as the real world might be about "games of power and dominating others", this is a game. Even if we discount what your position means for noble endeavours like the United Nations (since it's so easy to jump from pointing out they're futile to saying they shouldn't exist), life forces me to take part in this struggle; in Darkfall's case, as with all other games, I always retain the choice to cancel.
Perhaps you've heard about this other "game of power" -- the free market? With every loser gone, and the winners themselves perhaps starting to get bored, how is Aventurine to keep on paying the bills?
The minute we "start seeing structure to the chaos of open PvP", we will know that the beginning of the end for Darkfall has started. It will mean that power will have been concentrated within a few hands, and that the rest of players are just losers in various stages of eradication. The downtrodden will leave, followed by those who want to quit while they're ahead so they can still save face. Then you're left with your "winners" and their Pyrrhic victory over a now dead server.
We can predict it from Day One who's going to win this -- the pre-formed large guilds. But give it a month post-release before that starts sinking in.
As much as the real world might be about "games of power and dominating others", this is a game. Even if we discount what your position means for noble endeavours like the United Nations (since it's so easy to jump from pointing out they're futile to saying they shouldn't exist), life forces me to take part in this struggle; in Darkfall's case, as with all other games, I always retain the choice to cancel.
Perhaps you've heard about this other "game of power" -- the free market? With every loser gone, and the winners themselves perhaps starting to get bored, how is Aventurine to keep on paying the bills?
The minute we "start seeing structure to the chaos of open PvP", we will know that the beginning of the end for Darkfall has started. It will mean that power will have been concentrated within a few hands, and that the rest of players are just losers in various stages of eradication. The downtrodden will leave, followed by those who want to quit while they're ahead so they can still save face. Then you're left with your "winners" and their Pyrrhic victory over a now dead server.
We can predict it from Day One who's going to win this -- the pre-formed large guilds. But give it a month post-release before that starts sinking in.
At the risk of derailing my own thread... do you feel that what you described above has happened in EVE, which has a similar ruleset and pvp philosophy and has been out for some time? That game started small and seems to be getting more popular over time, and the organization between 'guilds' has not been the sign of its death, but the sign of it growing and evolving. What is 'different' about that game that has allowed it to thrive despite the 'power being concentrating in a few hands', as you said?
Please correct me if I'm wrong but the impression you are giving me is that the only successful ruleset, the only one that won't result in a games death, is one where no one loses, everyone wins, there is no risk to cause pain and no reward to seperate the elitists from the rest of the players. I don't know how I feel about the fun that can be had in such a world, but I know the last time I played a sport that had that kind of philosophy, I was very young, and not yet able to 'deal' with conflict like an adult would.
And what is a videogame if not a sport taken into the digital world? I think you are too harsh. Its cool if its not your style, no game is everyones style. But games don't fail just because they aren't a particular persons style. Hell I happen to think soccer is weaksauce but its still around
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
As much as the real world might be about "games of power and dominating others", this is a game. Even if we discount what your position means for noble endeavours like the United Nations (since it's so easy to jump from pointing out they're futile to saying they shouldn't exist), life forces me to take part in this struggle; in Darkfall's case, as with all other games, I always retain the choice to cancel.
Perhaps you've heard about this other "game of power" -- the free market? With every loser gone, and the winners themselves perhaps starting to get bored, how is Aventurine to keep on paying the bills?
The minute we "start seeing structure to the chaos of open PvP", we will know that the beginning of the end for Darkfall has started. It will mean that power will have been concentrated within a few hands, and that the rest of players are just losers in various stages of eradication. The downtrodden will leave, followed by those who want to quit while they're ahead so they can still save face. Then you're left with your "winners" and their Pyrrhic victory over a now dead server.
We can predict it from Day One who's going to win this -- the pre-formed large guilds. But give it a month post-release before that starts sinking in.
At the risk of derailing my own thread... do you feel that what you described above has happened in EVE, which has a similar ruleset and pvp philosophy and has been out for some time? That game started small and seems to be getting more popular over time, and the organization between 'guilds' has not been the sign of its death, but the sign of it growing and evolving. What is 'different' about that game that has allowed it to thrive despite the 'power being concentrating in a few hands', as you said?
Please correct me if I'm wrong but the impression you are giving me is that the only successful ruleset, the only one that won't result in a games death, is one where no one loses, everyone wins, there is no risk to cause pain and no reward to seperate the elitists from the rest of the players. I don't know how I feel about the fun that can be had in such a world, but I know the last time I played a sport that had that kind of philosophy, I was very young, and not yet able to 'deal' with conflict like an adult would.
And what is a videogame if not a sport taken into the digital world? I think you are too harsh. Its cool if its not your style, no game is everyones style. But games don't fail just because they aren't a particular persons style. Hell I happen to think soccer is weaksauce but its still around
I never played EVE -- the incidents in that game which made the news all but convinced me that there was something repulsive about it (especially if scamming and infiltration are seen as OK). However -- and please correct me if this is inaccurate -- the high political game in EVE is limited to less than a handful of alliances, and the rest of players are relegated either to play pirates in low-sec or do their little mining thing in high-sec. Maybe it's my own tendency for independence and preferring small groups that makes me wary of any game that tells me "join an uberguild... or else".
You don't know how many times I've heard that old "everyone's a winner" cliché. The issue in this case isn't so much equality of outcome (impossible to achieve in the first place, even with totalitarian regimes supposedly dedicated to that goal) but equality of opportunity -- that hypocritical "all men are created equal" of yours (I'm not American). So the question isn't so much whether there will or should be losers (there will be) but how you treat them.
I was once debating a similar point elsewhere and someone made an analogy to a swim meet. There's going to be a winner and losers, this much is undeniable. I can accept this -- but not if the penalty for losers is that they be shot dead in the pool, and that you add insult to injury by arbitrarily making some swimmers start 20 seconds after the others. In which case, I ask myself, what's the point of even showing up at the pool?
And this part of the business with the large guilds ensures that equality of opportunity will not exist -- not even on day one. It's going to be me, and my handful of friends, versus guilds of 100, 200, I don't know how many, who in many cases have a few years' head start. And then I'm supposed to be reminded that not everyone can be a winner -- when I've been tagged as a loser from day one not because of skill or resourcefulness, but because I don't have the numbers behind me? Then it's the second part of the problem kicking in. Because I'm a loser, I should just tolerate it being rubbed in my face thanks to such brilliant ideas such as full loot, while being deprived of any fighting chance by limited game mechanics (such as the lack of a global chat channel)?
The "winners" of the game won't be the self-proclaimed gankers showing up here who can't wait to be given a game in which they can pursue their griefing. The real winners -- and I don't see many posting here -- will be the large pre-formed guilds.
While many would like to see a new UO pre-Trammel emerge amidst the (genuine) dreck of WoW, sorry, but you can't turn back the clock. Everything from game mechanics to guild politics have changed in the decade since then. It's not "start at the same time as everyone else, stake out your claim, and defend it against others by making alliances" anymore; it's "start at the same time as everyone else, stake out your claim, then lose it to a 200-man zerg which objects to the mere fact that you exist". Put up a few buildings in a secluded spot, and they'll come to tear them down. Large guilds have cemented and made sure there would be no genuine power struggle outside of themselves.
Just as my earlier question was "if I'm sure to lose, what's the point of even showing up at the pool?", my question about Darkfall is "if I'm sure to lose, what's the point of even showing up in the game"?
And when the stream of victims has dried up, what will our glorious victors do then?
Look at AoC Tyranny and Cimmeria servers. Both have gone through their chaos phases and are now in the moonlight phase where players are generally getting along, although we all hate each other. Both of these servers are FFA PvP, and are focused around BK battles. Once a guild loses their BK the affect is evident, they are weaker in PvP and have low morale. And you want to know what? These are the two most active servers of the game in NA.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you are either liberal or a woman. Neither of these are bad things, but they do explain way you believe game world like this inherently don't work and all fail. But they don't. These games go through a mini society evolutionary phase that our own society has gone through (no surprise) one of chaos, to a little bit more organized, to a cold war, and finally an open world that we have to day were the gankers are terrorist and the rest are trying to carve out their place in the world.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
hahaha, oh wow
Re: The Topic. I think we'll see it very quick. The pre-formed guilds will quickly set up shop and polarize the server into X amount of protective super groups. Dreams of being some kind of pirate raiding party with your 10 RL friends will quickly fade away and be forgotten.