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How does this lvl system sound?
Umbrood
Member UncommonPosts: 1,809
It seems to me me many people do not like one or the other lvling system for one reason or another, as there are pros and cons with each. So how about one like this?
Lets steal the good parts from a few games shall we?
AO: LVL and skill based sorta, allthough you get points to distribute each time you level and you can out them wereever you like.
SWG, UO and the like: You get XP in the skill you are currently using. SWG has a fixed number of skillpoints
AC, AC2: A bit of both the former, you get XP to distribute among skills you have purchased for skill points, you get skill points each time you lvl, less and less the more you lvl. Fixed number of skillpoints.
Eve : Have not played this much but one major thing is you can train skill with time, time you do not need to spend online, there is no cap buttime how many skills you can train I think.
Horizons : Actually only the craft system is worth mentioning.
Now lets mash em all together?
You get XP in the skill you are using but you also get some XP towards your lvl. When you lvl you get points to raise basic attributes, strength agility HP and mana and the sort, you also get a few skillpoints allthough not many.
You start with a fixed number of skills, somewhat depending on class or whatever BUT you can get any other skill in the game by either buying them for lvl skill points OR use the eve system and train that skill over a period of time. The lvl skill points should only be enough to get you a hobby or whatever, if you really want more skills you need to train like this. Once you have the skill you train it like SWG/UO. Lets leave the class system somewhat intact so a skill REALLY far from your path costs you more time or points but is not impossible to get, like AO if a soldier want nanoresist he can buy it but it will cost him. Same here if a spell type char wants twohanded sword it will cost him to get that skill, but after he gets it he gain XP in that skill just as fast as anyone.
Also do this with crafting, lets steal some from horizons here. Keep crafting and combat apart for all purposes, this should be either a hobby or a profession, but all professions or classes have equal chance to be good in this. Start with all basic craft skills, for advanced craft skills you need to either put in skill points or train that skill just like combat, but you will have crafter lvl so the combatskill points do not interfere with crafting points. Again a small amount so you can pick up a few advanced skills without spending time but ultimately if you want to be good at this you WILL need to spend training time.
One could also make the aquiring of a new skill quest like so you need the help of a trainer OR a player with that skill to get you started, kinda like SWG.
Now there should be NO cap anywere, seeing as the more advanced skills will take you time to aquire it is easy to control the lvl speed of people, but dont hinder the power gamer to much, just make it a little bit more equal. The one who spends lot of time online should still have a edge, allthough maybe not so huge as in many games.
Also make no requirements on items what so ever, make recomendations. Like a ligthsabre or +5 mitrhil 2h sword need 100 in that particular skill, you can still equip it but you can not hit a barn with it it and you run the risk of decapitating yourself.. 
Maybe put in some very minimalistic attribute reqs, like with STR 1 you can not even move a 2h sword weighing 15kg. (do NOT however put in any kind of carrying capacity based on STR or anything), no matter how unrealistic people NEEDS to be able to loot. Allthough a topic for another thread the hoarding of items need a thourough overhaul in every game.
Suggestions? Comments?
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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Comments
I think "levels" should go bye bye, or have them altered.
Like say you had a Level generated soft cap. On skills.
So your a crafter lvl 15, your softcap for the skill is (15*2)+(related stats/2)
or somthing along those lines. Levels are too limiting, and in some games thats good. but I still belive that a "level" system is a dieing trend.
I belive that their should be somthing like a skill tree, although if the game has PVP that is hell and a half to balance. Thus the reason EQ2 has no PvP cause it would take months/years of beta to balance out all the classes correctly in PvP.
I think everyone has a different idea though on what would be a good idea in terms of a advancement system. Although I must admit, if a game had the suggestion you made, Id try it.. especially if it had horizons "planned" crafting system with people who actually need to crafted goods.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
i think that levelling up in these games should be abolished, and maybe a skill develope system could be introduced. i hate joining a new game thats been released for a few months already, only to be pk'd 80 times by some veteran. the fact is, he only earned the "veteran" status by playing the game for 24 hours a day. games like Counterstrike actaully take a little bit of talent and or skill, unlike others like graal or runescape.
I would love if someone could explain the value added with levels?
I have yet to find anything about them better or even equal to a skill based system. This isnt a flame, I would really like a blow by blow comparison from a level supporter on the pros/cons of levels vs skills.
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
Without wanting to sounds like a middle earth online fanboy the level system is why i am waiting on meo the most. Its going to be like eve online so that it isnt how much of a loser you are that gets you levels in skills its the time you have owned the game. You set one skill training and it will slowly go up over time depending on what level it is on and then you can leave it going when your not their and if you dont log in for a while when you come back you get a skill bonus (i.e if you go on hols) This means the game itself can be concentrated on following a story, having fun questing and hunting for gold and equipment instead of spending all your time trying to level up, i think it will make the game so much better than the other mmos i have played. I played asherons call 2 since release and it just annoyed me so much that everyone was always higher than me always beat me in pvp because they spent there lives in the game and i could only get in a bit of time every day max and if i wanted to stay competitive i would have to spend that time power leveling on dull monsters instead of questing and having fun like i should be. So with meo ill be able to play more casually without being left behind by the geeks who spend way too much time online at the same time as spending time in the game for fun, not just leveling for the sake of leveling.
I like Darkfall Onlines leveling system, because it doesn't have one. Entirely skill based. No limit on the number of skills you can learn. And from what they've said so far, player skill plays a large part in pvp, as you can physically dodge attacks, ala Asherons Call. No more casting Fireball, and having it automatically hit.
If the game ever sees the light of day, and they can avoid the technical issues of Shadowbane, well... yeah I think you get the idea.
EVE well something bothers me about eves skill system, some of the skills dont make sense, while you could learn electronics solely from a book, its not possible for one to become a master of gunnery w/o first hand knowledge and practice, somethings like this require a learn while doing system
AO leveling scheme is ok, but its entirely possible to be tradeskill master without ever crafting something, thats just silly (along with iprs)
The problem with pure skill based system is to relate content to. For instance in UO they can't really make much of a change in the high end content. IE they can't add too many monsters above what they already have. They could make more types but no more challenges. Where as with a leveling system you can just up the level of both the user and the monsters so that it effects stats and skills directly. It is very difficult to balance a skill based system in this regard. A really good system is a skill based system inside a level base so that you can control the content and items and skills a bit more effectively.
"Feel free to hate me, but hate me for the right reasons."
"Your still ignorant if you believe the first thing you see when the blindfold is removed."
"Be smart enough to know I'm smarter than you."
Hehe, yep... Star Wars Galaxies could of been that way. The only reason we're capped at 250 skill points (Allowing you to master 3 professions and half of a 4th profession) is because it's incredibly easy to master a profession, and they didn't want everyone in the game to end up mastering all 30 so professions in 6 months. lol
Maybe if grinding XP wasn't so easy, they could of removed the 250 skill cap (Or given us more than 250 skill points) allowing us to create a great combat template and at the same time get some crafting skills to help in the crafting economy.
But no... most people ended up buying 2 accounts. Thus making SOE richer.
___________ ___ __ _ _ _
Stealth - Ambush - Hemorrhage - Sinister Strike x2 - Cold Blood - Eviscerate - Vanish - Preparation - Cold Blood - Ambush - ... you're dead! :P
Well, it breaks down to game design.
Old UO was designed to give the players the freedom of choice so they could create their own end game content. IE: political struggle is more engaging than a l33tr version of a existing monster.
EQ does not give the same kind of freedom to the players, so its a must to have expansions if they want to keep any interest beyond item collecting alive. A game like EQ never really leaves dev state as they constantly have to pump new things into the game to keep it alive.
I know alot of people like the EQ expansions, but:
I dont like having to constantly repay for expansions just because the game was never finished properly. They do the expansions simply to drag you along, not create better game. They could always launch the game initially with that content, but then players wouldnt stick around as long as if they had to wait 3 months from one stage to the next.
A) I dont like being spoon fed dev created content
While I disagree with your reasoning, thank you for providing me with a reason why you support levels. Im curious, are there any other reasons levels > skills?
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
I never said I liked leveling systems over skills. I think a system with both in it would be a good system. Another side to the coin if you will. I don't like the idea of being constrained by levels, however, having a pure skill system lacks the refinement that makes other games great. While you can make it more interesting with things like RvR those are only sideshoots of a backbone to the game, which unless someone has a better idea is usually increasing your power.
"Feel free to hate me, but hate me for the right reasons."
"Your still ignorant if you believe the first thing you see when the blindfold is removed."
"Be smart enough to know I'm smarter than you."
"having a pure skill system lacks the refinement that makes other games great"
Yes, but what drawbacks are there to skills.....Aside from making it easy for devs adding content that should have or shouldnt not have been in there at launch. Im not saying your wrong...im saying I dont know of the refinement your talking about and would like to learn.
We can use fallout 2 as a example of what your referring to possibly? Levels and skills. While that system worked well, it let you cheat a bit. In that game, when you leveled you added skill points whatever skill you wanted. This means it would be possible for you to become very good with rifles without actually ever having to use one. Same as adding to traits...you could be a complete diplomat, computer guy who never did physical stuff...but then you could increase your strenght. Completely unrealistic and makes no sense (to me at least). Dont get me wrong, fallout series is easily my favorite rpg for pc....ever, just dont think everything in that game works well. Part of the logic in SP games is due to the lack of real competition and a massive enviroment, so I dont know if all the things are comparable or if all the ideas devs get from SP games should even be in a mmorpg enviroment.
Skills mimic life better as there is no such thing as levels in real life. You can be 50 years old and still be a idiot. You can have mastered nothing but dabbled in everything. You can be a business success story without even graduating high school. Now I know most things in RL dont port over to games well, but I think this is a valid comparison in a basic sense.
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
You, my friend are a slave to the system. You are the devs lapdog, eagerly kicking at their heels hoping they'll give you 'treats'.
It should not be about getting to the highest level, killing the uber bosses who respawn and collecting the uber items, then waiting for the devs to add more bosses, and more uber gear. If thats really what you want then at least loosen the leash around your neck a little.
Above all else I desire freedom. I don't want to play the game the way the devs want me to play it, I want the freedom to play it any way I choose. Content, as you see it, is completely irrelevant to me. For me, content is the tools needed to increase your freedom of choice, and this sort of content is not constrained at all by 'levels'.
*Signature*The Pessimist says the cup is half empty. The Optimist says the cup is half full. The Pragmatist says the cup is half full of air. The Engineer says the cup is operating at 50% capacity. The Psychologist says the cup is your mother. The Punk Kid also says the cup is your mother. The Cricket Player says his cup is definately full. Everyone knows that Pamela Andersons cups are full. The Defendant says it was like that when he found it. Me, I just ask the waitress for a refill.
My point was really not to choose between the two but to merge them as to both parties can be acceptably satisfied.
I actually see no difference between the two as long as you can choose whatever path you like, if anything it is the class system to blame for limitations.
What really is the difference. Lets say you want to wield weapon A and do X amount of damage with it, in both systems you would need to spend Y amount of time eiher practising that skill or lvl up. A system were you spend Y/2 time lvling up and Y/2 time practising would also be the same, only difference is that some people like one or the other, well now both can enjoy it.
And as to the fact that if you eneter a game say 6 moths into release and are bothered by the fact that there are people stronger then you or whatever, I really doubt that will ever change. mmorpgs are almost entirely based on character development and numbers, longer you play the higher the numbers. After all a game were everyone was the same all the time is not really a rpg in the common sense.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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geld I agree with you 100% . I have played UO and EQ for a long time. Althought I liked EQ I had more freedom as to what my character could be in UO lot more. I had a 65 Paladin with over 100 AA's in EQ which was a xp grind like no other. But having a character in UO ment you can choose to be anything you wanted at any time you chosed to changed your skills. Remember UO even tho the graphics are very old (dont be fooled by them) is in my view the best designed game ever.
PS no other game has even come close to the possibilities UO presented and I dont mean the expansions which in my view screwed up almost perfect game. Richard Garriott my hat is off to you.
The only problem with that is a level is a broad thing over the whole character that doesnt exist in real lif and doesnt make any sense. A guy spends 3 hours work raising his swords skill...ok great. But take a guy with levels, he could gain the exp for that level without even touching a sword and then after 3 hours, he could just put his points into swords. How does raising a skill without actually using it make any sense?
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
It does not make any sense.
Allthough I am kinda a fan of the AO system were this is the case, it always bugged me a bit that especially you raised tradeskills with XP/IP points gained during combat, and that is the ONLY wayto get better at tradeskilling.
Hence I suggested this system..
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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I in part agree and disagree with your statement there. First of all, no truly good MMORPG is EVER finished. That's part of the reason you pay $12 or $15 a month instead of just the $50 for the game itself like with consoles. No matter how good a game is at launch, unless you come up with new things to add to it down the road it'll just stagnate. As the times change, new additions have to be made to better accomadate the growing needs of the populace. I've not, however, played UO so I admit I'm not really at liberty to comment on how that one works. However I do agree that our having to pay for each expansion is pretty bogus. At least on the occasion where the changes are so minor that a simple free patch would suffice. Although I suppose in EQ's case, SOE knows they can get away with it. They have a huge base of rock-solid dedicated fans, some that would even sit on a cute newborn kitten's head just to get the next expansion (Those fiends, I like kittens!
Having taken many a beating from clubs and other blunt objects your muscles harden, enhancing your constitution, while those sharp blades rending your flesh have caused it to grow rough and sturdy giving you some added natural AC. Or perhaps you've taken so many fireball spells to the head, that you've come not to mind it so much over time, having gained resistance to heat. A puzzling quest you undertake, being a formidable test of your cunning and will, may enlighten you, giving birth to new found intellect and wisdom; and after spending so much of your free time killing all those speedy little mongoose-men (off the top of my head what do you expect?) while avoiding their razor sharp claws has finely honed your reflexes and agility. Of course since you enjoy swinging your favorite halberd around, or the delightful sizzle noise a dead foe makes after your lightning attack has subdued him/her, your polearm/lightning magic proficiency has grown well, making you quite the deadly combatant, with the right weapon by your side.
Obviously there would be details to work out such as preventing player exploitation of such a system, but the general idea is very workable I think.
Everquest used this exact system, with the addition of a level based skill cap.(That's right. EQ1)
The inevitable result of such a system is that people will use theitr skill points to buy new skills they don't already have, then grind up their other skills.
I know what you're talking about and EQ's system is very different. Your base stats never change in EQ (except with AA's) and the skills that improve in the game arent really dependant on what you're fighting. I guess I could've given my examples more simplisticly, I just wanted to explain it in a more reasonistic manner. Basically what I'm getting at is, taking blunt attack damage gradually improves Constitution, Slash attack damage improves AC, Magic attack damage improves resistance to the particular type of spell you're hit with, fighting fast creatures improves your speed, completing quests improves your intelligence and/or wisdom, using certain types of spells makes you better at whatever type of spell you're using, and using certain weapons makes you better at using those types of weapons. I suppose the weapon proficiency is similar, but it should have more of an impact than it does in EQ. In other words, though, advancement would be more about WHAT you fight rather than HOW MUCH you fight. It's a bit more realistic that way rather than "once I kill one more random creature I'll suddenly get stronger". If you want to create an agile rogueish type with deadly accuracy, naturally you fight creatures that challenge those skills. If you want a sturdy beefcake who's a glutton for punishment, you have to go out and learn to take a beating first. If you want a cunning mage with magic far more deadly than any blade, you strengthen your mind with quests and practice making things die with your elemental magic of choice. Your base stats and hence the very development of your character would depend on HOW you decide to train yourself, not on how many points you gather from fighting the same creatures. You want to train a different stat, you gotta find appropriate prey, and they'd have to be enough to challenge your current skill. This beats fighting the same monsters for hours and watching everything go up. At least thats my opinion.
Xira, your talking about something else or you simply do not know. EQ is not what he described.
"Buying" skill points is one the dumbest ideas ever. You dont buy a skill, you work it up.
UO is closer to what hes talking about....use a skill, gain in that skill and only that skill. Get hit with magic, slowly develop magic resistance over time. Not make a thousand dresses and when youve leveled put your points into magic resistance even though youve never been hit with a spell.
In answer to previous comment:
Games need patches and updates to fix bugs, iron out imbalances, etc. But a expansion should only be added for like new land, etc....not to change the fundamental character balance such as levels vs content.
Its simple and it goes back to another thread about dev vs player created content. Do the devs entertain you at end game or are you strong and familiar enough to write your own story and drive the game yourself. UO took for former approach.
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank