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Why World of Warcraft dungeons are better than Everquest's
Recant
Member UncommonPosts: 1,586
I come from an EQ background, I spent 5 years almost non-stop in that game, and the old-school dungeons like Upper Guk / Lower Guk, Sebilis, Sol A/ B are (and were) utterly overrated. Even though hours I spent standing in the same camps, for literally hours on end, killing the same identical frogloks in the hope that the boss you were after would spawn, and then hope that he drops the item, if there was a dungeon comparable to one of WoW's instances in EQ back then, I would have spent my time in those instead.
Flowing Black Silk Sash for example, was on average a 9 hour camp. A CONTESTED (and they were all contested in EQ) 9 hour camp, that required a group or a sufficiently careful solo class like a necro to get the item. Most of the good non-raid items were delivered this way. Lodizal the turtle, that Griffon near him whatever his name was, the Ancient Cyclops etc etc - but I'm talking about dungeons here.
World of Warcraft, despite not having dungeons that require you NOT to have a social life if you want to be considered even worthy enough to talk to hardcore raiders, completely smashes EQ dungeons to pieces in terms of fun and design.
SOE didn't produce their monstrosities from any perceived dungeon artistry, they were quickly cobbled together, poorly thought out and were only successful because they invoked feelings of despair and boredom which players masochistically endured for the sole reason of competition; having a chance to win an item that other players did not have because they hadn't yet endured this hardship, or were unwilling to.
The 'fun' was always having to endure some kind of pain or immense sacrifce of real-life time in order to get an advantage over those who didn't. And these freaks (of which I was one of them, before I grew up), have the nerve to call World of Warcraft 'Easy mode' because it doesn't require your life.
Everquest was the student game, World of Warcraft is the adult game, the game for people who now have lives or responsibilities, that you can play only and weekends and still see everything. EQ required at least 25 hours per week minimum to see everything; the hardcore guilds at the time raided 6 hours a night with one night off, I remember the schedule well. Players who played for 20 hours a week were considered to be leechers because they wanted loot that players that played for 40 hours a week 'fought hard' to earn.
That said, I have fond memories of EQ and I don't want to downplay the sheer rough brilliance of it, but I will argue that those who found so much pleasure in the hardcore times of EQ have mostly moved over to WoW now, and despite their nostalgia would never go back.
I will also argue that there was not special skill, or intelligence required for EQ - it required no more skill to play than World of Warcraft does now. The only difference is time.
That does not make World of Warcraft ' EASY MODE ' - this is a pretentious and utterly ridiculous term which is also completely false - instead it makes it FUN. If anything, the gameplay mechanics of WoW are actually harder, but this is already a longer post so I won't argue this point now.
Nostalgia is good but don't let it cloud judgement.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
Comments
always interesting what deluded views people have. And the laughability of seeing WoW as different from EQ in terms of core age. Here's the truth, both games attracted wasters, both games have/had a heavy student population. Both games had those people that chose to play casual, and those that play hardcore. Both games are grindy and time-consuming, hello do we seem to forget WoW has 3 hour instances?
Lastly, in case it escapes your notice WoW and Everquest are two different designed games. One is more focused around dungeons more testament to a believable fantasy world, while the other is more focused around the player and the game. Would I prefer a rpg where I'm visiting molded kobald habitats, or a game where every npc is set out for me in a mind-numbing linear manner? The answer to that would vary by day to day tbh but I'm making the point both are designed differently.
Amazingly you didn't mention any of the raid dungeons, or dragons, or gods. I'm guessing you never seen The Temple of Veeshan, Veeshan's Peak, or Ssra Temple or any of the Alternate Planes that required keys/flags to get into at first.
For the Dungeons you did mention... I like camping..I hate having to run around everywhere to find stuff to kill. I enjoyed sitting in an area just chatting with people while we killed stuff.
I still to this day have met more people in real life that I played EQ with than I ever have in any other game. I haven't played EQ in almost 5 years now. Not because it got boring, but because I had to grow up and didn't have the time to raid 24/7 like I used to for a while.
I also introduced EQ to well over 60 people some of which still play EQ to this day...some of them curse me and some of them absolutely love me for it. Either way they were and some are still addicted to it.
Granted 90% of MMO players today are sissies and can't handle an EQ type game with harsh penalties and forced grouping. As for me, until they make one that great again (with better graphics) I won't be happy with the crap they put out these days. I finish all the content for them in 3-6 months and move on to the next one.
Also SoE cannot have anything to do with it. I don't buy Sony products of any kind since the SWG:NGE incident.
I must respectfully disagree with almost every point you made in the original post.
EQ had the magic and community that may never be equalled. The downime in between spawns was so critical to this. WOW is a glorified solo-RPG at this point. Most of the time people only talk in dungeon crawls when something is going wrong.
You can't get lost, can't fall through a trap, can't lose anything you worked hours to get etc... People bitch endlessly when they die now because their repair bill may be 2g more... ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
WOW originally did a GREAT job advancing CC skills and dungeon dynamics.. too bad they seem to have reversed direction and thrown all this away with the expansion.
IT IS EASY MODE NOW.. read thottbot, half the posts are about how they solo'd this are that content. There is no group anymore.
I am going to go cry alone now... and yes... somewhere I still have a character with an FBSS... I loved that game...
I didn't just participate in raids, I lead them, From the days of Kunark to the waning days of GoD, I put my heart and soul into the game for my friends and my guild.
Raids were not the point of my post though.
I had to laugh at your comment: "90% of MMO players are sissies"
Hahaha. I suppose playing EQ for all those years put hairs on my chest did it? No of course it didn't, get a grip on reality and get over yourself. There is absolutely nothing hardcore or challenging about EQ's penalties that were merely the result of an unexperienced developer making a game of previously unimaginable magnitude and not knowing how to balance it properly.
When I was paying a cleric to rezz me for 50pp, or having to grind a couple of hours longer to recoup the lost exp - that didn't make me any less of a sissy.
It just took more time.
IT JUST... TOOK.. TIME... NOTHING ELSE AT ALL.
More time - same content. That's not 'harsh', that's a mechanism to make up for lack of content.
If you think those kind of things make you a hard man, and me a sissy, well, I guess everyone with more than half a brain is a sissy.
Look, I don't expect many to agree with me, but there's having a different opinion... and then there's being so completely wrong you must be living on a different planet - if you think that EQ was some kind of 'mans' game and WoW is for 'sissies'. Get a grip man!
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
Meh, sort of like comparing bad vs evil.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Sadly without camps and hours invested in items, everything becomes boring and pointless. Just be happy both exist instead of tryng to push your own opinion down other peoples throat as some sort of ultimate truth, because it aint.
That "Flowing Black Silk Sash" had more impact on a melee characters upgrade than any item in WoW. Items in wow are minimal gains, continual farming for 0.10% improvement. Find a key item in EverQuest that only made your character feel 0.10% improved? My point exactly, you got yourself a Flowing Black Silk Sash, you were like OH MY GOD, or better yet a cloak of flames.
The point is, EverQuest items MEANT SOMETHING. Each and every item was practically a blessing and made the effort worth it. In WoW, you are hand fed countless items until your eyes bleed. Nothing I have raided in WoW has ever compared to dropping Cazic Thule or Phara Dar back in EQ days, nothing... it's all dumbed down.
People confuse terminiology. Everquest wasn't hard, it was tough and unforgiving. Levelling up, corpse runs, bashing mobs, bugs and trains, having to mana manage to escape these situations.
I personally don't reminesce about these things, to be honest it's corpse runs were ridiculously stupid and not fun at all. But, I can see where people come from in terms of contrasting the two games. It's fair to say both games were pretty much different experiences.
Having said all that....I don't hate EQ or, more recently for me, EQ2. However, there ARE several things, particularly in EQ2, that I have issues with, just like you seem to have "WoW issues." I have characters lvl 64 and lower. My wizard/provsioner is 64, my troubador is 50, and I have several other lower level than those. GOOD LUCK coming back to the game if you've gotten that far behind, even if you ARE guilded. Seriously. Now you are behind on AAs, and are basically gimped compared to all other people your level that did NOT leave the game. The best way to get these AAs now, is to go back and help lower level people level up. Well....I'm not particularly keen on the idea of going back through all those quests again....ewww. OR....you can go back and solo all the quests you might have missed along the way in lower level zones....yeah, there's no tediousness to EQ2....that's for sure. Pfffft. I left very SHORTLY after AAs were implemented, which makes it MUCH worse on my 64 wizard.
It all boils down to this.....NO GAME is going to be perfect for EVERYONE. Play what YOU PERSONALLY enjoy. And while you're at it....why put down other games and other people that play them? Maybe...just maybe...they're paying to play what THEY enjoy....ya think?? Maybe that doesn't make them a "pussy," maybe it means they're a responsible adult with other obligations outside of gaming. Does that make them less deserving of having a hobby that they enjoy? If you don't enjoy the SAME game....SO WHAT? Go play what you like. It's your dollar, not mine.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
WoW raiding is no different then EQ or EQ2. It's still hours and hours of raiding the same crap over and over again. The only plus side to EQ/EQ2 is you didn't always have to reset a dungeon to camp a certain mob.
WoW = easy mode which = student mode as you put it. EQ2 is more challenging and more diverse all around.
Obviously, EQ2, like EQ is still full of elitist arrogant snobs. I see not much has changed.
Hell, Blizzard couldn't even balance the two opposing classes they had ( Shaman / Paladin ) so they gave them to both factions. WoW has what? 12 Races and 8 Classes? EQ2 has 19 Races and 24 Classes, so please don't mention EQ2 in any more of your WoW is better than this game, cause it's not.
It's "not" in your OPINION. I know this may come as a HUGE shock to you....but people, as a general rule, have VERY diverse opinions. Yours....isn't any better than the next person's. Just because EQ2 is a better game for YOU, doesn't mean everyone else has to feel the same.
As much as I played WoW, I managed to get to 73 in the WotLK expansion before I said screw it. WoW isn't a bad game, it's just too much like City of Heroes which encompasses about a month of enjoyment every year.
Nice try though.
Dripping with arrogance. "My game is better than YOUR game...na nanny boo boo." Very mature stuff there, kiddo.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
@girlgeek
If you have run into any of my earlier posts.. maybe you would have seen that I had indeed played WOW 'classic' through the original Naxx content. WOW classic was a very good game, it did not however capture the magic of EQ. You pulling EQ2 into the conversation shows me you don't understand the difference...
However WOTLK is lacking, unbalanced, and borderline broken. IT is clear they rushed it to knock out the fledgling competition (aka WAR, AOC etc.) it is linear, compartmentalized, and the DK is just a huge problem once the shine of a new OP class wears off...
Why all the newer super epic players of WOW are trying to pretend the content isn't easier than used to be is beyond me. BUT please get over your purple selves, it meant nothing when it took 500 hours of play, and it certainly means nothing when it only takes 30....
Well I spend little time on MMORPG so I doubt I will see your reply..
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Even though both games are MMOs, each game was aimed at a different crowd at a different time.
EQ was aimed at the old hardcore fantasy crowd back when MMOs were still a PC geek past time. It was more focused on the journey and not the destination. Items were harder to get to because they were always a substantial upgrade to other items, and camps were basically social.
WoW was made with the every gamer in mind. Unlike EQ it aimed for a broader group ranging from kids to grandparents. Its gameplay was made simpler to allow everyone the ability to feel they accomplished something no matter if they played 30 minutes or 10 hours.
It basically comes down to comparing Coke to Pepsi. Both are carbonated beverages, both are considered Cola. The difference is one is sweeter and one burns more going down.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
People confuse terminiology. Everquest wasn't hard, it was tough and unforgiving. Levelling up, corpse runs, bashing mobs, bugs and trains, having to mana manage to escape these situations.
I personally don't reminesce about these things, to be honest it's corpse runs were ridiculously stupid and not fun at all. But, I can see where people come from in terms of contrasting the two games. It's fair to say both games were pretty much different experiences.
The corpse run did one thing no other game has done since: it made me respect the zones I was in.
Dungeons were very scary. Heck, even running through that swamp in between South Ro and Guk was heart-pounding... and fun.
People confuse terminiology. Everquest wasn't hard, it was tough and unforgiving. Levelling up, corpse runs, bashing mobs, bugs and trains, having to mana manage to escape these situations.
I personally don't reminesce about these things, to be honest it's corpse runs were ridiculously stupid and not fun at all. But, I can see where people come from in terms of contrasting the two games. It's fair to say both games were pretty much different experiences.
The corpse run did one thing no other game has done since: it made me respect the zones I was in.
Dungeons were very scary. Heck, even running through that swamp in between South Ro and Guk was heart-pounding... and fun.
Aye, it made you think before you did something. Players would actually pay attention in groups and not go afk for 15 minutes at a time.
Granted sometimes you lost a corpse in a really bad area, but almost anyone with a guild always had a way to get it back.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I completely disagree with everything you said. I played EQ since beta for a while. It is a BORING campfest.
This argument about downtime is completely STUPID.
If i want to chat .. i go to a chat room. I play MMORPG to go kill mobs (solo *and* group). I would rather do something with my group than chat.
And the EQ 's harsher group penalty is just STUPID. It is just adding to the time sink and does not make anything more challenging.
WOW is a much much better game (more enjoyable, more fun, less frustration) than EQ can ever be.
Better, all depends on what type of game you are looking for. Yes Everquest had frustrations but as does WoW; for instance being solo-orientated till level 80, pvp being gear-dependant as well as having very little meaning, so many kill x/y quests that your tolerance of low gameplay quotient activities is severely tested, and so on and so on. I'd personally say my idea of a mmo would be closer to Everquest than WoW, only without the frustrations, and more inspired by deep-rpgs like Morrowind.
I enjoyed EQ like the OP for about five years also. I have mostly fond memories of the game, and I find myself comparing it to every other MMOG I play. But that is natural considering it was the first mmog I played.
I'm a huge fan of forced grouping, I don't play a MMOG to run around being able to solo over half the game world and I'm also a fan of a harsh penalty when you do something stupid. WoW doesn't have these things, EQ2 doesn't either anymore (They did remove Corpse runs after all, in their WoWification process).
What WoW has is mass appeal, good for it. I play it too since all my RL friends are stuck there and thus I take enjoyment in the simple things we can achive (our playtime is limited, so even doing heroics takes time since people have to learn) within our skillset and playtime. I don't like the amount of automization the game offers through addons but I suppose that is part of the mass appeal effect.
I don't consider EQ's dungeons better or worse then WoW's. Scripted events can be fine, as can camping. EQ did start with instanced dungeons at one point after all. EQ was a different game, for a different time, I very much doubt a new developer would have the balls to even remotely attempt to recreate an EQ styled game. For better and worse.