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The Seven Deadly Sins of MMO development
Elikal
Member UncommonPosts: 7,912
Ok, right away, these are MY personal preferrences, and as with food or sex, you are free to share or not share them. 
Over the years of gaming, and especially MMO gaming, I realized how my own tastes and preferrences changed, and in many ways what satisfied my once is not enough any longer now, or has been refined. I am not totally inflexible, but there are a handful of things I feel as "must have" or "must not have" in MMO. Lets see how you all think about it.
(1) INDIVIDUAL DESIGN
I cant play MMos with less character customization than "City of Heroes". I must admit this game totally spoilt me. I am talking about the visual appearance here, not stats or skills, btw. But it was a background as this, which totally and completely made Warhammer unplayable for me. I absofrigginglutely hate looking like a clone. And this WOW-like "5 faces and 5 haircuts" model is something I cant play anymore. Give me plethoras of haircuts, of ears and eyes and especially - of CLOTHING - gear to wear! It was so cool to really, really look like you WANT to look, really unique, and I am just fed up of being a clone as in WOW/WAR and the like. I dont think MMO gaming post 2009 should have such simplified ways to look, and that includes both the customization of your character's body, as well as the ways to "dress". No more copy cats!
(2) INDIVIDUAL SKILLS (no fixed classes)
Same goes, to a degree with skills. I understand the old SWG skill based system was a paradise we ain't gonna see a long time. THAT really was the best system I had seen, a real, skill based system, not being confined in one role, but you could tailor make your own class. I could imagine you still get a starter class, but you dont have one skill tree, but you can gradually open up and learn all kind of skills. I am just sick and tired of the "one fixed skill line" as in WOW or Vanguard or games like that. Maybe you gonna play Drakensang, because the German pen & paper game "the Dark Eye" has a good middle path: you get one starting profession, but by and large you can learn every skill. Ok, except magic and priest stuff, which is limited to those classes, but essentially you can get into ANY tree of abilities and thats what I would like to see in MMOs. I am just fed up with tailor-made classes.
(3) OPEN , LIVING WORLD
Am I the only one who just has enough of theme park MMOs? Its one of my big gripes with WAR. You are practically hook-nosed from entertainment point a to b asf. Its like one, narrow tunnel and there is little to no use for wandering, exploring or what. I love open, vast worlds, like in Vanguard, partially LOTRO or even WOW. I dont want loadscreen-labyrinths. Also AoC felt quite confined for some reason. Of course size isnt everything, as we had seen in VG, which was relatively sterile in many places with those nailed to the floor NPCs. A MMO must give me the feeling as if I were in a real world, not some theatre stage.
(4) VOICEOVER
Something I am used from EQ2, and I guess most people who played EQ2 a time are greatly letdown in most other MMOs. I really enjoyed the (lip-synch!) voiceover of most NPCs in EQ2, and I so loathe the endless textboxes in other MMOs. It so depletes a game of atmosphere when all NPCs are mute, and its one of my must haves, that a next gen MMO must have voiceover. (EQ2 npcs even turn towards you and make gestures when talking! I so miss that in those nauseated npcs in most MMOs.)
(5) LUSH VISUALS
Generally I feel a next gen game 2009+ must have a certain degree of lushness in its landscapes. LOTRO has proven you can make great visual and wonderful landscapes even with relatively few polygons. Making atmosphere is so much more than the number of pixels. Its a matter how you place objects, who to use colour, light, shadows and fog - or no fog. As I said, I think it is mostly a matter of artistic skill not so much of technology. In that way, sorry if it sounds like WAR bashing - but I just found Warhammers landscape totaly soulless.
(6) STORY VS FEDEX QUESTS
I understand it is not easy to make so many quests as a MMO generally has and make them all interesting. Some always will be simple. But you can spice quests up with good stories and clever thinking. One thing I loved much about LOTRO are the book quests, which not just tell a story as text, but make you part of a story going on with you. Be it the transition quest of the starter area to the open world at level 5 or the higher book quests, I just feel such epic storytelling elements are a must have in anything to come, and the days were EQ/EQ2-ish "fetch 20 boar skins" is really over. Or should be.
(7) INTERESTING COMBAT
Thats something AoC has gone into a good direction. I must admit, I am just bored to death now by the EQ/EQ2-esque combat model, where you basically stand frozen in front of your enemies, you put all your 4 dozens skills in 4 rows and click them all through all over. I dont think MMORPG combat should be like a shooter or what, but I want to feel some impact, some kind of force behind the combat. That does often differ greatly between games and even between classes. The LOTRO warden with the spear for instance also has introduced good "impact feeling", like generally all AoC classes in another way - while generally all other, older LOTRO classes usually felt way too light-hearted, so to speak. Its just one thing I realized whenever I re-tried EQ2, just I am just not able to go back to the EQ typical old fashioned combat. It had some kind of immobility and lack of impact, which does no longer satisfy me. Just slashing into stuff with my Barbarian axe in AoC spoilt me too much.
There is my personal rambling about stuff I hope the new MMORPGs are going to take into consideration. Its most things which changed over time, where I once used to be less demanding, easier to be entertained and I feel these days, its just not enough for me. I wonder if others experience similar changes in their wants and needs for a good MMO, or does your idea of a good MMO always stay the same?? Let me hear it.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Comments
Sadly there isn't much more that can be said at least in my book. Touched on just about every aspect and gripe I have with all most MMO's that have been released over the past 8 or so years.
Well done.
1, agree
2, disagree, I think either works and it has yet to be proven to me that skill based is superior, it's just different with its own issues
3, I sort of agree but in the end I want to play a game not live in a world. Also, the Warhammer world makes sense given the type of game it is. It is not trying to be a "world". I do agree with the AoC world as that seemed to be trying to be an open world but it was mostly sets. What I am tired of is trying to enter an area but not being on the corresponding quest. So a little bit more discovery and exploration would be good.
4, Well, I hated EQ2 voiceovers. I have no problem reading text. But sure, as long as they are not as inane and as insipid as EQ2 then I can go for that.
5, I can essentially agree with this. The world has to be believable given the art design.
6, sure why not. However, there are only so many quests that can be made and run through. I imagine the FedEx quests can be done in a way where they are optional but can be done by those who want to do them. So, instead of being told to get the npc 10 boar hides, how about "I need hides! If you can get me hides as you can I will pay "x" amount of silver per 20". This way it is what it is and doesn't masquerade to be something else.
7, I have no problem with the way combat is in wow or lotro so that's not an issue for me. But sure, make it like oblivion why not.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Not a bad list but I would personally classify your points 1, 4 and 5 as bonuses and not really core elements. They are definetly nice to have but hardly something one would quit a game over.
The customization in CoH wa neat but in the end I got more enjoyment out of my basic template dwarf in WoW then my fully custimized here in CoH. I wil take a stick figure character in a game with awsone gameplay then a totally customized character in a game with mediocre gameplay.
I play my MMORPGs with sound off so voiceovers might as well not exist for me.
I started playing MMORPGs on highly underperforming computers so I am used to playing the games on minimal setting. I loved my early days of SWG when my graphics looked like a bunch of big polygons but upgrading my computer so I could see the grass and all the details did not compensate for the suckiness of the later gameplay.
A+ post. I agree with everything.
Warhammer feels more like a theme park then any other MMO on the market. If you play the human campaign, there is an aera up on a hill very early when you are level two. You are supposed to use a cannon to fire at the monsters below but they dont move. Like cardboard cut outs they stand there facing you lol. It felt like an attraction.
That's true, that did feel like an attraction. The elf and dark elf areas have something similiar. However, if you view it as tutorial it makes more sense.
I'm not sure it contributes to a world feeling but it's just tutorial. I would argue for an optional tutorial aside form the mmo world for people who wanted that but I think some would just bypass that and then complain that there were no instructions and things weren't clear.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
OP, I think you've hit the nail quite squarely on the head.
Personally, I would also like to see a good player-based economy and involved crafting system as well.
Anyway, thanks for the good read. Hopefully we will eventually have a developer who "gets it".
This is why I'm playing oblivion and fallout 3 right now. No classes, I can build the character I want to build. damn I love it, and there is no going back to classes for me.
I will NOT play any RPG with classes any more. With the exception of BioWare games, just because they kick ass.
It's a shame so many MMO players settle for crap just because there is multiplayer.
And yes CoH, CoV kicked ass in so many ways it's not funny. PvP where people can fly, supper jump and super speed is a blast. Too bad so many players missed the boat on that one. No end game, boo hoo. CoX wasn't about end game, so many player just don't it.
Again, I don't think it has anything to do with settling. I loved Morrowind and Oblivion (still play Oblvion and played Morrowind for over 2 years - how's that for value!!!!) but I would never want that type of system for an online game as I feel that everybody grinding up their skills to be max is cheap. Then what happens is the system that is in place for unique characters create the ultimate same as everyone characters.
Unless there were limits to how high certain skills could get in relation to others it wouldn't do anything other than to create other issues.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Great job OP! I really agree with this and hope Bioware can deliver on most if not all of these concepts.
Sadly, we already know that SWTOR will use a class-based system.
Let's hope however that they provide for a great deal of diversity within each class.
2nd that
And I cant agree with the TC. I dont want to customize my avatars face so it will look unique, just becuse I will put a freaking helmet/hat on it as soon as possible. Age of Conan is a fine example were I could customzie my avatar very well. But I ended up looking like all the rest becuse of armour. Let the developer put some extra effort in actually game play rather than "audio visuall lul lul".
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I guess it is just me, but none of those ranks as highly as the thing that disappoints me about most MMORPGs: the impermanence of my actions. I kill the king of the uglies, and then I get a quest to go kill the same guy, and so I kill him again. And again. And again next week. I clear out an area, and wait for it to respawn. I go haul some stones for some guy who needs to fix a wall, and sure enough, the wall is broken next time I see him, and some poor sap is dragging over stones for him. No wonder people feel like they are on a treadmill.
I don't care for PvP and I don't like the game's long boring travel followed by quick action, but at least Eve feels like someplace where actions actually matter.
Again, I don't think it has anything to do with settling. I loved Morrowind and Oblivion (still play Oblvion and played Morrowind for over 2 years - how's that for value!!!!) but I would never want that type of system for an online game as I feel that everybody grinding up their skills to be max is cheap. Then what happens is the system that is in place for unique characters create the ultimate same as everyone characters.
Unless there were limits to how high certain skills could get in relation to others it wouldn't do anything other than to create other issues.
Well, yes, they have some issues with their skill system. But I do love how there are custom classes. They also make it possible to get all skills to 100 in fallout 3 (which I just did). They really should stop doing that.
OP you did everything well. I never played a skill based system. But I still like classes. I think the reason why people are sick of classes are because they are massivly cookie cutter with no feel. I think you can have classes and play them more than one way with out limiting your class. I think that will be the key to a great class system.
1 - CoH character creation is the gold standard for MMORPG's in my opinion as well. To date it has been the only MMORPG where I could recognize a friend solely by their appearance.
2 - Class vs Skill based character progression is not a strong sticking point for me. I'd play either and I think they both have their pros and cons. People have come to dislike class based games so much because it's being implemented poorly. I think FFXI used the class system the best. They had a large selection of jobs, both specialized and hybrid and allowed you to have a main and sub job. FFXI also allowed you to level up every job on the same character so you never needed to create another toon.
3 - I enjoy large open worlds too. AoC did go overboard on instancing. But I wouldn't fault the designers for breaking up the world into a few meduim sized continents for load balancing purposes. In a PvE game I wouldn't mind some dungeons being instanced either. I've done my share of camping rare spawns and bosses next to five other groups and I don't mind never doing it again. On the other hand in PvP game, it's more fun if the dungeons are not instanced since fighting over raid bosses or good hunting spots like in Lineage 2 can be a lot of fun.
4 - Voiceovers, in my opinion, are just cheap gimmicks. Like the quest text, I read them the first few times when the games is new then get bored and skip it.
5 - On my list I would have ranked this last. Nobody continues to play a game simply because it looks good. I would rather see more manpower devoted to functionality and performance than esthetics.
6 - I am bored to death of quests. I'm at the point where I would gladly grind mobs endlessly for hours then do another "Kill 10 boars and I'll go you 5 gold" quest. I've never cared much for the lore of a game. I like the player made stories, whether it be guild drama, competition over castles or backstabbing players.
7 - I'm all for making combat more interesting. Just as long as they don't go the shooter route. I would like to see more teamwork required in combat. Also make death penalties more harsh so dying isn't such a joke.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Yeah, this is a great addition to the looooooooong list of "I want a sandbox MMO with no levels or classes" but none of those actually classify as "Deadly Sins" of MMO development.
The real 7 Deadly Sins of MMO development would include: don't make promises you cant keep, be prepared for the launch, have the graphics engine run smoothly and crap like that.
But whatever, at least you got all the other sandboxers in here for high fives and "I agree completely".
I agree with you.
Whether or not someone likes a particular style of a particular feature has nothing to do with "sin of mmo development".
Would one say that some of the sins of Movie development are "no more cgi/special effects, no more using well known actors, no more big budgets", etc?
Seems to me that this all falls under personal taste.
But as you say, what isn't personal taste are:
NEW 7 Deadly Sins of MMO Developement:
1, Release a game that is reasonably bug free with standard game mechanisms incorporated in the game. Things such as Vendors, mail system, either an Auction House or other means for players to trade, etc.
2, Release the game with the promised content/DON"T promise the sky! Meaning, if it's a pvp game then the pvp content should be in. If it is PvE then all PvE content should be in. both type of content should be in and range up to the level cap. If the lvl cap is 50 and there is nothing to do at lvl 40 then this is a failure. If there is something that you would like in but it seems difficult to implement DON'T advertise it until it's ready to go in. At best you can add it after launch as "extra content" and worst you will get players angry for pulling what they perceive as promised features.
3, Do be honest with players as far as the information you release. Developers don't have to give everything away but the more you say the more people will hold you to it.
4, Do be professional toward players and in interviews.
5, If there is an unforseen issue be up front as much as possible and let players know that you are working on it. Occassionally an update will help if an overlong period of time has passed with no fix and no comment.
6, Do not appear to be greedy. Promsing features to a game, pulling them and then adding them later on in a paid expansion seem like you are milking your customers.
7, Do not significantly change the game or gameplay from the initial concept. Yes, games evolved and change but there is a difference between evolving a game and radically breaking from the original game that was sold. OR, if the need to change the game means closing it down as opposed to keeping it open, DO be honest and open with the playerbase.
It seems to me that this might cover any game that is released as opposed to someone's personal opinion as to what they want as their perfect game.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I think the OP and Sovrath both make some really great points. However one of the main things that makes an MMO good or bad to me is the community. There really is no way for developers to foretell what kind of community they are going to attract. Sure, they can aim for a certain target, but what do you do when a bunch of of PvE folks sign up to play PvP game? What do you do when they bitch and moan and threaten to quit?
I'd have to go out on a limb and say that community is probably the hardest part to get right in today's MMOs, because the very large majority of players (in my opinion and experience) don't give a shit about anyone but themselves. Sure, video gaming is a selfish hobby in its being, but giving players something to care about is huge for me. But, even when developers try to do this correctly it can backlash. For example, WAR created several paths to level by, but players almost competely abandoned all other gameplay besides the fasted easiest way to hit the cap or get the best item rewards. There was alot to care about in WAR, but all anyone cared about was leveling and loot. Players in alot of the more popular MMOs such as WoW, WAR, and AoC only have one thing to care about: loot. And that simply is not enough to keep me going nowadays.
There were 5 scenarios (instanced PvP maps) in tier 3 of WAR, but I only ever got to play one of them regularly. Part of this was the failure of the "Join All" queue mechanic, but to a large extent, players were fine with being put into the same scenario over and over again. I know because I would join the other scenarios exclusively and abandon the "popular" one and guess what, I didn't get to play. Once they intoduced higher XP and better loot in the RVR lakes, the scenarios became emtpy. Variety is one of the other huge things in MMOs that I look for, and when that is jeopardized by pure player laziness, I have to wonder about the types of people who are playing MMOs today. To be honest, I have largely lost faith in the communities of todays MMOs.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.