I don't post to forums very often, so I don't have all the fancy blinkies and sigs... but I've got something s to say here, so listen up. I'm a gaming veteran. I've been playing P&P's for about 23 years and I've been writing and playing video games for about as long (starting with the trusty D&D character generator and random dungeon generator). I've also tried out just about every MMORPG out there, as have most of you... Here are some thought, especially on how PvP is concerned - things that have been done right and wrong:
EQ: pro: Lots of loot and character building. Worlds to explore. con: Unplanned PvP - pretty much useless
AO: pro / con: Pretty much the same as EQ. DAoC: pro: Excellent idea for PvP: three distinct realms that cannot interact in a friendly way. con: Too strictly level-based and too much grind, uninteresting worlds.
Shadowbane: pro: Well balanced PvP classes and guilds form home towns to protect. con: Point-and-click movement and combat. "click and walk away". Also, combat is over too fast.
City of Heroes: pro: Fun twitchy combat feels like you're fighting. con: No PvP at all (and unbalanced if it were there) - plus it's not Fantasy genre!
Planetside: pro: Fun action! con: Not RPG, no character building other than "Certifications".
OK, So there's a lot of stuff there that I've checked out and here's how I would put this experience to use if I were assisting in the design of D&D Online:
1. First, make the combat FUN. City of Heroes really did this well, and I advise D&D Online to take a look at what they did and see if they can use something a little bit like that. It's twitchy, in that you press a button and the power goes off, and there isn't a "combat mode" where you could just walk away while your character beats up the helpless bad guy...
2. It really adds something to the game when you're fighting something for a purpose. "The Orcs that have overrun a town" would be much more fun to kill than a bunch of helpless deer in a field. You want fun, try raiding a player-run village! (Something Shadowbane did well: mines are open for a 2 hour timeslot (primetime) for attacks. Defenders and invaders know to be there during that timne to protect their assets - those are FUN!
3. Role-Playing! Enforce it! There are many ways people violate the basics of role-playing: They talk in 133t5pe@k. ICK!!! They also do things like someone posted: Paladin grouping with an Ogre, etc... It's not hard to enforce alignment: In the AD&D rules (or perhaps it came out of Dragon magazine or something else I read long ago), alignment was a continuum. If you did lawful acts, you became more lawful, if you did chaotic act, more chaotic, same with good and evil... PvP is a part of this! The evil theif stealing from the party and using an opportunity to backstab someone and makeoff with the loot... A Druid doesn't just decide he's über and attack a Ranger to prove it. I played Pen & Paper many years, and we had inner-group fights... sometimes over loot and sometimes someone just had an evil character and planned to kill us the whole time. Those are the adventures I remember the most! The DM kept it fun - but didn't stop it from happening - it was roleplaying, and it really made us pull out every trick we could think of.
4. Justice System: I've played in (and designed) MUDs that had really well defined Justice Systems... If D&D Online can pull this off, they can allow PVP - where acts of evil are handled by the justice system - the same deterrent that prevents people in our society from running rampant killing and looting.
5. Guild / Clan / City home bases: In Shadowbane, PvP can happen anywhere. It's both scary and exhilarating at the same time. The only people you know you can trust are the people in your Nation (an umbrella organisation of a set of guilds). Just like in our own human existence, we came together out of a need for protection (or conquest) and formed city-states, countries, and empires.
6. Realms (or something similar): The one thing DAOC really did well was separate the different teams so that they did not make friends with the others - in fact, they only fought with them, so there's an almost hatred that brews for the enemy team. (Get killed by so many "Hibbies" and you just really loathe seeing a Druid and her tree). They did this through geography and language. EQ actually did a decent job with languages - I like the idea that even though you're a Drow, you could still learn to speak Common.
Summary:
PvP is fun and can be managed! Computer AI can be good, but it's always more limited than an innovative player. Even if PvP isn't available for the initial release, it's imperative that the devs keep it in mind, for without it, there's very little endgame. Get to level 20 and then what? Just pleaaaase consider PVP!
Thanks for reading this, I hope it wasn't too disjointed.
IMO, no offense to anyone, but I also have played RPG's over 20 years, I just think traditional D&D has no connection to PvP at all. With that being said, I hope it stays out of the game and I am very excited to see this become a reality (DDO!) Myself and some fellow gamers have tried a few different online options for traditional D&D over the years, but nothing worked too well and was way too time consuming. I am very excited the gaming industry has came as far as it has and look forward to more and more development in the future.
~Yeti ...Role Player since before D&D had their first hardcover books. (Simple and Advanced Editions rules!) ...has a very hard time keeping the same avatar. ...became disenchanted with SWG after a long long haul, but still dedicated to MMORPG's.
I agree they should not even consider PvP for D&DO. Take a look at another VERY POPULAR game based on the D&D Rules: Neverwinter Nights. The game is not intended for PvP, yet, it does have a massive following. There's constant online campaigns being scheduled on Neverwinter Connections.
I honestly think this game is intended to "tap into" that stream of gaming that NWN offers and based on what they explained of the game so far (instantiated campaigns off of a shared "world"), it sounds like that's the direction they are headed.
~Yeti ...Role Player since before D&D had their first hardcover books. (Simple and Advanced Editions rules!) ...has a very hard time keeping the same avatar. ...became disenchanted with SWG after a long long haul, but still dedicated to MMORPG's.
I am not an uber fan of PvP, but would be interesting if they allow PvP like eq does, guild war thing. I can see adventuring groups <guilds> competing. Of course the guild leaders have to agree, and type in the /command.
sounds like something for the upcoming release "Guild Wars". An OK idea, just not D&D related... well, classic D&D anyways.
~Yeti ...Role Player since before D&D had their first hardcover books. (Simple and Advanced Editions rules!) ...has a very hard time keeping the same avatar. ...became disenchanted with SWG after a long long haul, but still dedicated to MMORPG's.
Nothing wrong with them setting up a PvP server, maybe even make it possible to Xfer/dupe your normal char to that server, once.
Just as long as they do not do ANYHING to classes, skill and feats to even try to balance PvP.
Aside from this ffa server no thought what so ever should go into thinking about PvP, and if they do they need to make them changes only for the ffa server, and that is prolly not an option really resource wise.
Maybe arenas could be an option to, monitored battles with some kind of system to scale opponents somehow, maybe fight for money and/or items. I used this in PnP games a lot, good way to kill some time if ideas are running dry for a while and whatnot.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~Yeti ...systems owned; Pong, ColecoVision, Commodore Vic20, Atari 2600, Atari 5200, Intellivision I & II, Nintendo, SNES, Sega, Gamegear, 32x, Sega CD, Philips CDi, 3DO, Comp, Playstation, XBox (only a few I have not owned, yet probably played hehe) ...enjoying Fable & MKD currently. 2nd sig... http://home.mchsi.com/~tattooedyeti/MxO_Yeti.gif
I can't believe the amount of folks who say they have played D&D, in one form or another, say there is no PvP in the PnP game. Are you guys out of your minds? Do you even have a concept of role playing? Do they use aligment for no reason? How do you play a CE Rogue in a Neutral or Good based group? You never looked over you shoulder during every fight, praying the Rogue was attacking the monster, not your Cleric? NPCs run by the DM inflitrarting your party, thwarting you at every turn, that's Player vs Player!
Get a clue, PvP, done right, can only enhance a game. I can refrence many articles. So I shall:
Mad Lum site had many, www.kaaos.com has alot.(it's down for a revamp right now). Do a web search on Hedron (a KAAOS member) who has written and influenced PvP in many games. WarKnight is the lead designer of WoW (another KAAOS member) Div Devlin of the Gray Company has wrote 100s of articles. Do a little research.
Zerackus the Bane Son of Myrkul Undead Lords www.undeadlords.net
Zerackus the Bane Son of Myrkul Undead Lords www.undeadlords.net
Originally posted by Zerackus I can't believe the amount of folks who say they have played D&D, in one form or another, say there is no PvP in the PnP game. Are you guys out of your minds? Do you even have a concept of role playing? Do they use aligment for no reason? How do you play a CE Rogue in a Neutral or Good based group? You never looked over you shoulder during every fight, praying the Rogue was attacking the monster, not your Cleric? NPCs run by the DM inflitrarting your party, thwarting you at every turn, that's Player vs Player!
Get a clue, PvP, done right, can only enhance a game. I can refrence many articles. So I shall: Mad Lum site had many, www.kaaos.com has alot.(it's down for a revamp right now). Do a web search on Hedron (a KAAOS member) who has written and influenced PvP in many games. WarKnight is the lead designer of WoW (another KAAOS member) Div Devlin of the Gray Company has wrote 100s of articles. Do a little research.
Zerackus the Bane Son of Myrkul Undead Lords www.undeadlords.net
Well, MOST people who play PnP D&D play with friends. Just because your an evil character in a good group, doesn't mean your primary goal is to kill off the other members. While PvP does occur in PnP games, most people try to refrain from it just for the simple fact that they are playing the PnP games for social reasons. It's a social activity, and I don't know about you, but I prefer not to go to social activities which I'm not going to have a good time at. So, how would you feel if your friend killed off your level 15 mage? I'm sure you'd be a bit pissed due to the amount of time you put into it.
So, while yes, PvP can and does exist in PnP games, most people refrain from it because more importantly than it being a game, it's a time to socialize with other people.
The strongest argument for this decision, in our opinion, is the fact that PnP Dungeons & Dragons has never been a PvP-oriented system.
That's moronic! PvP is an inherent, primary function within the D&D pnp system, and always has been. There are mortal consequences to your actions if you stray too far from the path set by your party members. Without PvP, there is no intra-party conflict. You can't have an Elf and Dwarf at each other's throats, for example, if all they can do is say "cut it out or I'll say 'cut it out' again".
Magic without PvP has no repercussions. A wizard in pnp has to be careful with a fireball or risk blowing up his own party. This adds to the fun, because any minor mistakes make for really upset party members. Major mistakes get people killed, so AoE spells have to be used skillfully or not at all. The same goes for bows, thrown weapons, scroll spells, molotov cocktails, etc.
Rogues without pvp are just a crappy warrior. They can't steal from party members except by being an obvious ninja-looter. Since there is no repercussion for uncivil conduct, they can ninja-loot to their hearts content.
I've seen several pnp sessions devoted entirely to intra-party conflict. From jumping on the rogue for stealing to yelling at the mage for everyone's singed eyebrows to racial conflicts to discussions of the legitimacy of someone's birth, these sessions have often been even more fun than the actual quest we were trying to accomplish. They only happened because there were mortal consequences to stepping out of line too far.
Originally posted by battleaxe Magic without PvP has no repercussions. A wizard in pnp has to be careful with a fireball or risk blowing up his own party. This adds to the fun, because any minor mistakes make for really upset party members. Major mistakes get people killed, so AoE spells have to be used skillfully or not at all. The same goes for bows, thrown weapons, scroll spells, molotov cocktails, etc.
See, I don't consider this "PvP", because as you said, the wizard has to be careful. He's not openly being aggressive to his fellow players. Same goes for your other examples of bows, thrown weapons, scroll spells, molotov cocktails and critial misses.
Originally posted by battleaxe Rogues without pvp are just a crappy warrior. They can't steal from party members except by being an obvious ninja-looter. Since there is no repercussion for uncivil conduct, they can ninja-loot to their hearts content. I've seen several pnp sessions devoted entirely to intra-party conflict. From jumping on the rogue for stealing to yelling at the mage for everyone's singed eyebrows to racial conflicts to discussions of the legitimacy of someone's birth, these sessions have often been even more fun than the actual quest we were trying to accomplish. They only happened because there were mortal consequences to stepping out of line too far.
Rogue's ability to detect traps, disarm traps and open locks are more important than his combat ability. The backstab ability, while quite powerful against a single opponent is not something you would want to do in a group anyway, because after that, as you said, he's just a crappy fighter.
As far as "ninja-looting" goes, I think it's fair to say, everyone here who is against PvP in D&D Online would agree that if they were DM'ing a game where one player's character stole from someone else in the group and was detected, they would have no problem with allowing them to battle it out (PvP) and suffer the consequences of a Perma-death character.
In an online game such as D&D Online where perma-death is a taboo topic, open PvP does not belong. If someone playing a level 20 thief knew they could possibly lose their level 20 thief if they are caught pick-pocketing someone in thier party, they'd think twice as hard on their actions. But no, in an online game it's just a "minor setback" so they have no problem pick-pocketing people in their group. If they get caught, they re-spawn, minor loss (which is recoverable) of any stats/XP and they move on.
If you want to institute PvP in D&D Online, you MUST have perma-death and some kind of system in place where some level 30 Barbarian isn't going to go on a slaughter spree of all people level 10 and lower. That's really the only solution to the problem that I can see.
Originally posted by Thoom Easy done for perma death. There is resurrection in PnP D&D. Some races can't be rezzed but thems the breaks.
While this is true, I believe that's a fairly high level spell in PnP D&D and if I remember correctly, there's a chance that it will fail. Yes, you could go to an NPC Priest, well, if someone carried you, but it will cost you a good amount of gold.. well, it would actually cost your group because you can't technically pay, since your dead. But, if your in a group of people who killed you, who's going to resurrect you anyway?
Xira, excellent post and explanations. I totally agree.
Even if the classes were balanced for PvP in D&D Online, I still would not be in favor of it simply because PvP was never a real important part of the PnP game. I know it happens when players turn on one another, but like Xira said, there is a DM to moderate and control things.
The real draw to D&D Online, which in my opinion is the tight knit party-based Dungeon crawl, will certainly attract the fans of the original PnP game. I would like to see outdoor zones, towns, caverns, mountain top areas, forested regions and meadows along with the Dungeons, however.
And I heard there won't be crafting, which I am alittle upset about, but overall, if it keeps true to the original D&D concepts, I think D&D Online will be a success, at least to people like me who respect and still enjoy a good Dungeon crawl with a group of players . . .
Originally posted by Zerackus I can't believe the amount of folks who say they have played D&D, in one form or another, say there is no PvP in the PnP game. Are you guys out of your minds? Do you even have a concept of role playing? Do they use aligment for no reason? How do you play a CE Rogue in a Neutral or Good based group? You never looked over you shoulder during every fight, praying the Rogue was attacking the monster, not your Cleric? NPCs run by the DM inflitrarting your party, thwarting you at every turn, that's Player vs Player!
Get a clue, PvP, done right, can only enhance a game. I can refrence many articles. So I shall: Mad Lum site had many, www.kaaos.com has alot.(it's down for a revamp right now). Do a web search on Hedron (a KAAOS member) who has written and influenced PvP in many games. WarKnight is the lead designer of WoW (another KAAOS member) Div Devlin of the Gray Company has wrote 100s of articles. Do a little research.
Zerackus the Bane Son of Myrkul Undead Lords www.undeadlords.net
No, I think the question is do YOU have any concept of Role-Playing. The answer to your question is you don't play a CE rogue in a Neutral/Good group. In the first, if you're going to allow a CE character, that character will have tried to kill every party member at least once during the first adventure (provided you actually read the alignment description and play it word for word instead of only being CE "when it suits you" and to justify getting a piece of loot you wanted). Secondly, after the first attempt on a party member's life, a detect evil spell would undoubtedly be cast by a capable party member (hey, if you're gonna allow a CE in your party and them to attack each other, then you gotta allow Detect Evil/Good and know alignment type spells). Once the Neutral or especially the Good aligned party member found out the rogues true alignment, that rogue is gone, either by death or running away. Regardless, after one adventure, he/she isn't in the party anymore.
In games not directly based on an established game system, sure, I can see why some people might advocate PvP. DDO is based on the established game system that is DnD 3.0/3.5. The classes are not made for PvP (for reasons mentioned countless times in this thread), and the spirit of the game is not such that PvP is warranted. The spirit of the game, which many people convienently tend to forget, is a cooperative party of heroes saving the day. Sure, you CAN turn it into PvP, but the rules/spells/abilities of the PnP game were not created to facilitate balanced/fair PvP. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean that it SHOULD be done.
Cheers
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Xira i jsut have to reply on your first comment, it is only unbalanced if you dont paly they tpo their full capability, because i know i could pull of beating a lvl 20 mage as a lvl 20 fighter via staregy not brute force, the monk yes that would be a challenge i admit
DM-"If you roll a natural 20 its almsot gauranteed for something to die" Boreas- (calls lightning from storm) *rolls a 20* DM- ".......you nuke the damn area wityh lightning, are you happy now!?"
DM-"If you roll a natural 20 its almsot gauranteed for something to die" Boreas- (calls lightning from storm) *rolls a 20* DM- ".......you nuke the damn area wityh lightning, are you happy now!?"
Originally posted by Genjing D&D was never designed for PvP, bottom line. You could PvP if you wanted, but that was in the safe presence of a human DM. All of Xira's points are very good reasons why PvP won't work and be fun. To simply say "no pvp = suck" is a very shallow way to look at it. Btw, the PvE combat will be nothing like any other mmorpg. Some people don't seem to comprehend that they're innovating here, instead of following the mmorpg mold set by older games. Fire an arrow into a wall from the shadows... and a kobold will turn in surprise and walk over to investigate. A minotaur will lower its horns and stamp its hooves before charging; and if you dodge out of the way, the minotaur can hit a wall and be stunned. Knocking a goblin into a bonfire, the beast will catch on fire and run away screaming. These are just some of the things that make the D&D experience worthwhile. While PvP and Crafting may be added later after launch, the FOCUS of D&D has always been teamwork and adventuring in dungeons. Not ganking others, harvesting materials for plate armor, or randomly exploring wilderness. Yes, if DDO was designed to be like other mmorpgs, then the lack of PvP, crafting and open wilderness would hurt it. But it not, and it doesn't hurt to keep an open mind either.
UHHHhhh,, I beg to differ. DnD is nicely PVP. You have factions. Each faction based your characters roll in fighting. Who to trust and not to trust. PVP would be the only way to do this game.
You roll a Wizard ( Ok leaving the land of kids now ) not only do you figure out his stats you figure out your standing in the world .. Good wiz BLAAA or neutral wiz euwn or BAD wiz .. (YEAH baby) .. now you enter the world. You must find your challenges and fight for skills and items. You can group with people but the faction bases how they fight. If you group with a thief hes going to steal from you sooner or later .. that or you might find a dagger in your back.
I think if they do this right it would be awsome. Making it where when you die .. like in DnD your dead character is GONE .. would rock.
Babies play EQ .. us big boys play games of this nature.
Fix to be killed by me .. ( Evil - assassin at your serivce.)
But making friends is nice but getting your loot will be better.
Helllo, My name is Indego Montoya, You killed my father prepare to die.
(Repeat)
Helllo, My name is Indego Montoya, You killed my father prepare to die.
Originally posted by Tsen UHHHhhh,, I beg to differ. DnD is nicely PVP. You have factions. Each faction based your characters roll in fighting. Who to trust and not to trust. PVP would be the only way to do this game. You roll a Wizard ( Ok leaving the land of kids now ) not only do you figure out his stats you figure out your standing in the world .. Good wiz BLAAA or neutral wiz euwn or BAD wiz .. (YEAH baby) .. now you enter the world. You must find your challenges and fight for skills and items. You can group with people but the faction bases how they fight. If you group with a thief hes going to steal from you sooner or later .. that or you might find a dagger in your back. I think if they do this right it would be awsome. Making it where when you die .. like in DnD your dead character is GONE .. would rock. Babies play EQ .. us big boys play games of this nature. Fix to be killed by me .. ( Evil - assassin at your serivce.) But making friends is nice but getting your loot will be better. Helllo, My name is Indego Montoya, You killed my father prepare to die.(Repeat)
Stop babbling. If you want a permadeath game where you can gank party members in the back, you're looking in the wrong place. Go act out your l33t awesome pk fantasies somewhere else, because this is definitely not the fundamental design of DnD.
Hmm...I guess I'm not sure about this game. I kinda understand some of the reasons there is no pvp in this game, and part of me thinks it would be a relief to step away from games like lineage 2 and other pvp based games, and enjoy a little PvE limited. But I have also always been a fan of pvp games, just due to the fact that it makes it more of a roleplaying game. Maybe if they could find a way to allow pvp, but penalize you harshly for doing it randomly and chaotically. Lineage 2's karma idea was pretty good until they realized it didnt work...any ideas?
Originally posted by moxymundi Hmm...I guess I'm not sure about this game. I kinda understand some of the reasons there is no pvp in this game, and part of me thinks it would be a relief to step away from games like lineage 2 and other pvp based games, and enjoy a little PvE limited. But I have also always been a fan of pvp games, just due to the fact that it makes it more of a roleplaying game. Maybe if they could find a way to allow pvp, but penalize you harshly for doing it randomly and chaotically. Lineage 2's karma idea was pretty good until they realized it didnt work...any ideas?
Bark
Yeah, but you see, that's the problem. The majority of people don't role-play in these games ( which is why I have stopped using MMORPG mostly and using MMOG now). Speaking from my experience, when it comes to PvPers, it's not a majority, it's a totality. Why would you want to stop and "talk" as it might give up an advantage and you get "pwnz". The only 1st tier MMOG that has PvP that was implemented well is DAoC. The mechanics don't allow you to talk to others from other realms, however, the areas you go to where you would possibly meet up with those people are designated PvP areas. I enjoyed the game, and if their item decay wasn't so ridiculous I would still be playing.
The only RP I've seen from my years of playing UO, AC, SWG (these are MMOGs I've played that allowed non-structured PvP as opposed to DAoC's structured PvP) is that of a mute mass murderer (MmM). Run in, gank, run away, never a word spoken.
Besides, there needs to be a balance in having more MMOGs that focus on player cooperation than getting to the high levels so we can fight each other. I just want Turbine to stick to its statement of no-PvP.
Cheers
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Comments
PVP would only work if:
the roges started off hidden
mages started off out of swords reach
clerics could turn other players.
in other words it probly wouldnt work
Hi everyone,
I don't post to forums very often, so I don't have all the fancy blinkies and sigs... but I've got something s to say here, so listen up.
I'm a gaming veteran. I've been playing P&P's for about 23 years and I've been writing and playing video games for about as long (starting with the trusty D&D character generator and random dungeon generator). I've also tried out just about every MMORPG out there, as have most of you... Here are some thought, especially on how PvP is concerned - things that have been done right and wrong:
EQ:
pro: Lots of loot and character building. Worlds to explore.
con: Unplanned PvP - pretty much useless
AO:
pro / con: Pretty much the same as EQ.
DAoC:
pro: Excellent idea for PvP: three distinct realms that cannot interact in a friendly way.
con: Too strictly level-based and too much grind, uninteresting worlds.
Shadowbane:
pro: Well balanced PvP classes and guilds form home towns to protect.
con: Point-and-click movement and combat. "click and walk away". Also, combat is over too fast.
City of Heroes:
pro: Fun twitchy combat feels like you're fighting.
con: No PvP at all (and unbalanced if it were there) - plus it's not Fantasy genre!
Planetside:
pro: Fun action!
con: Not RPG, no character building other than "Certifications".
OK, So there's a lot of stuff there that I've checked out and here's how I would put this experience to use if I were assisting in the design of D&D Online:
1. First, make the combat FUN. City of Heroes really did this well, and I advise D&D Online to take a look at what they did and see if they can use something a little bit like that. It's twitchy, in that you press a button and the power goes off, and there isn't a "combat mode" where you could just walk away while your character beats up the helpless bad guy...
2. It really adds something to the game when you're fighting something for a purpose. "The Orcs that have overrun a town" would be much more fun to kill than a bunch of helpless deer in a field. You want fun, try raiding a player-run village! (Something Shadowbane did well: mines are open for a 2 hour timeslot (primetime) for attacks. Defenders and invaders know to be there during that timne to protect their assets - those are FUN!
3. Role-Playing! Enforce it! There are many ways people violate the basics of role-playing: They talk in 133t5pe@k. ICK!!! They also do things like someone posted: Paladin grouping with an Ogre, etc... It's not hard to enforce alignment: In the AD&D rules (or perhaps it came out of Dragon magazine or something else I read long ago), alignment was a continuum. If you did lawful acts, you became more lawful, if you did chaotic act, more chaotic, same with good and evil... PvP is a part of this! The evil theif stealing from the party and using an opportunity to backstab someone and makeoff with the loot... A Druid doesn't just decide he's über and attack a Ranger to prove it. I played Pen & Paper many years, and we had inner-group fights... sometimes over loot and sometimes someone just had an evil character and planned to kill us the whole time. Those are the adventures I remember the most! The DM kept it fun - but didn't stop it from happening - it was roleplaying, and it really made us pull out every trick we could think of.
4. Justice System: I've played in (and designed) MUDs that had really well defined Justice Systems... If D&D Online can pull this off, they can allow PVP - where acts of evil are handled by the justice system - the same deterrent that prevents people in our society from running rampant killing and looting.
5. Guild / Clan / City home bases: In Shadowbane, PvP can happen anywhere. It's both scary and exhilarating at the same time. The only people you know you can trust are the people in your Nation (an umbrella organisation of a set of guilds). Just like in our own human existence, we came together out of a need for protection (or conquest) and formed city-states, countries, and empires.
6. Realms (or something similar): The one thing DAOC really did well was separate the different teams so that they did not make friends with the others - in fact, they only fought with them, so there's an almost hatred that brews for the enemy team. (Get killed by so many "Hibbies" and you just really loathe seeing a Druid and her tree). They did this through geography and language. EQ actually did a decent job with languages - I like the idea that even though you're a Drow, you could still learn to speak Common.
Summary:
PvP is fun and can be managed! Computer AI can be good, but it's always more limited than an innovative player. Even if PvP isn't available for the initial release, it's imperative that the devs keep it in mind, for without it, there's very little endgame. Get to level 20 and then what? Just pleaaaase consider PVP!
Thanks for reading this, I hope it wasn't too disjointed.
-- Cari "Chaos Kitten" D........
games@absolutechaos.com
Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
~Yeti
...Role Player since before D&D had their first hardcover books. (Simple and Advanced Editions rules!)
...has a very hard time keeping the same avatar.
...became disenchanted with SWG after a long long haul, but still dedicated to MMORPG's.
~Yeti
I agree they should not even consider PvP for D&DO. Take a look at another VERY POPULAR game based on the D&D Rules: Neverwinter Nights. The game is not intended for PvP, yet, it does have a massive following. There's constant online campaigns being scheduled on Neverwinter Connections.
I honestly think this game is intended to "tap into" that stream of gaming that NWN offers and based on what they explained of the game so far (instantiated campaigns off of a shared "world"), it sounds like that's the direction they are headed.
~Yeti
...Role Player since before D&D had their first hardcover books. (Simple and Advanced Editions rules!)
...has a very hard time keeping the same avatar.
...became disenchanted with SWG after a long long haul, but still dedicated to MMORPG's.
~Yeti
~Yeti
...Role Player since before D&D had their first hardcover books. (Simple and Advanced Editions rules!)
...has a very hard time keeping the same avatar.
...became disenchanted with SWG after a long long haul, but still dedicated to MMORPG's.
~Yeti
Nothing wrong with them setting up a PvP server, maybe even make it possible to Xfer/dupe your normal char to that server, once.
Just as long as they do not do ANYHING to classes, skill and feats to even try to balance PvP.
Aside from this ffa server no thought what so ever should go into thinking about PvP, and if they do they need to make them changes only for the ffa server, and that is prolly not an option really resource wise.
Maybe arenas could be an option to, monitored battles with some kind of system to scale opponents somehow, maybe fight for money and/or items. I used this in PnP games a lot, good way to kill some time if ideas are running dry for a while and whatnot.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/loadNews/2357
a great amount of info on this topic. Great work!
~Yeti
...systems owned; Pong, ColecoVision, Commodore Vic20, Atari 2600, Atari 5200, Intellivision I & II, Nintendo, SNES, Sega, Gamegear, 32x, Sega CD, Philips CDi, 3DO, Comp, Playstation, XBox (only a few I have not owned, yet probably played hehe)
...enjoying Fable & MKD currently.
2nd sig... http://home.mchsi.com/~tattooedyeti/MxO_Yeti.gif
~Yeti
I can't believe the amount of folks who say they have played D&D, in one form or another, say there is no PvP in the PnP game. Are you guys out of your minds? Do you even have a concept of role playing? Do they use aligment for no reason? How do you play a CE Rogue in a Neutral or Good based group? You never looked over you shoulder during every fight, praying the Rogue was attacking the monster, not your Cleric? NPCs run by the DM inflitrarting your party, thwarting you at every turn, that's Player vs Player!
Get a clue, PvP, done right, can only enhance a game. I can refrence many articles. So I shall:
Mad Lum site had many, www.kaaos.com has alot.(it's down for a revamp right now). Do a web search on Hedron (a KAAOS member) who has written and influenced PvP in many games. WarKnight is the lead designer of WoW (another KAAOS member) Div Devlin of the Gray Company has wrote 100s of articles. Do a little research.
Zerackus the Bane
Son of Myrkul
Undead Lords
www.undeadlords.net
Zerackus the Bane
Son of Myrkul
Undead Lords
www.undeadlords.net
Well, MOST people who play PnP D&D play with friends. Just because your an evil character in a good group, doesn't mean your primary goal is to kill off the other members. While PvP does occur in PnP games, most people try to refrain from it just for the simple fact that they are playing the PnP games for social reasons. It's a social activity, and I don't know about you, but I prefer not to go to social activities which I'm not going to have a good time at. So, how would you feel if your friend killed off your level 15 mage? I'm sure you'd be a bit pissed due to the amount of time you put into it.
So, while yes, PvP can and does exist in PnP games, most people refrain from it because more importantly than it being a game, it's a time to socialize with other people.
The strongest argument for this decision, in our opinion, is the fact that PnP Dungeons & Dragons has never been a PvP-oriented system.
Magic without PvP has no repercussions. A wizard in pnp has to be careful with a fireball or risk blowing up his own party. This adds to the fun, because any minor mistakes make for really upset party members. Major mistakes get people killed, so AoE spells have to be used skillfully or not at all. The same goes for bows, thrown weapons, scroll spells, molotov cocktails, etc.
Rogues without pvp are just a crappy warrior. They can't steal from party members except by being an obvious ninja-looter. Since there is no repercussion for uncivil conduct, they can ninja-loot to their hearts content.
I've seen several pnp sessions devoted entirely to intra-party conflict. From jumping on the rogue for stealing to yelling at the mage for everyone's singed eyebrows to racial conflicts to discussions of the legitimacy of someone's birth, these sessions have often been even more fun than the actual quest we were trying to accomplish. They only happened because there were mortal consequences to stepping out of line too far.
Zerackus the Bane
Son of Myrkul
Undead Lords
www.undeadlords.net
Zerackus the Bane
Son of Myrkul
Undead Lords
www.undeadlords.net
See, I don't consider this "PvP", because as you said, the wizard has to be careful. He's not openly being aggressive to his fellow players. Same goes for your other examples of bows, thrown weapons, scroll spells, molotov cocktails and critial misses.
Rogue's ability to detect traps, disarm traps and open locks are more important than his combat ability. The backstab ability, while quite powerful against a single opponent is not something you would want to do in a group anyway, because after that, as you said, he's just a crappy fighter.
As far as "ninja-looting" goes, I think it's fair to say, everyone here who is against PvP in D&D Online would agree that if they were DM'ing a game where one player's character stole from someone else in the group and was detected, they would have no problem with allowing them to battle it out (PvP) and suffer the consequences of a Perma-death character.
In an online game such as D&D Online where perma-death is a taboo topic, open PvP does not belong. If someone playing a level 20 thief knew they could possibly lose their level 20 thief if they are caught pick-pocketing someone in thier party, they'd think twice as hard on their actions. But no, in an online game it's just a "minor setback" so they have no problem pick-pocketing people in their group. If they get caught, they re-spawn, minor loss (which is recoverable) of any stats/XP and they move on.
If you want to institute PvP in D&D Online, you MUST have perma-death and some kind of system in place where some level 30 Barbarian isn't going to go on a slaughter spree of all people level 10 and lower. That's really the only solution to the problem that I can see.
While this is true, I believe that's a fairly high level spell in PnP D&D and if I remember correctly, there's a chance that it will fail. Yes, you could go to an NPC Priest, well, if someone carried you, but it will cost you a good amount of gold.. well, it would actually cost your group because you can't technically pay, since your dead. But, if your in a group of people who killed you, who's going to resurrect you anyway?
Xira, excellent post and explanations. I totally agree.
Even if the classes were balanced for PvP in D&D Online, I still would not be in favor of it simply because PvP was never a real important part of the PnP game. I know it happens when players turn on one another, but like Xira said, there is a DM to moderate and control things.
The real draw to D&D Online, which in my opinion is the tight knit party-based Dungeon crawl, will certainly attract the fans of the original PnP game. I would like to see outdoor zones, towns, caverns, mountain top areas, forested regions and meadows along with the Dungeons, however.
And I heard there won't be crafting, which I am alittle upset about, but overall, if it keeps true to the original D&D concepts, I think D&D Online will be a success, at least to people like me who respect and still enjoy a good Dungeon crawl with a group of players . . .
No, I think the question is do YOU have any concept of Role-Playing. The answer to your question is you don't play a CE rogue in a Neutral/Good group. In the first, if you're going to allow a CE character, that character will have tried to kill every party member at least once during the first adventure (provided you actually read the alignment description and play it word for word instead of only being CE "when it suits you" and to justify getting a piece of loot you wanted). Secondly, after the first attempt on a party member's life, a detect evil spell would undoubtedly be cast by a capable party member (hey, if you're gonna allow a CE in your party and them to attack each other, then you gotta allow Detect Evil/Good and know alignment type spells). Once the Neutral or especially the Good aligned party member found out the rogues true alignment, that rogue is gone, either by death or running away. Regardless, after one adventure, he/she isn't in the party anymore.
In games not directly based on an established game system, sure, I can see why some people might advocate PvP. DDO is based on the established game system that is DnD 3.0/3.5. The classes are not made for PvP (for reasons mentioned countless times in this thread), and the spirit of the game is not such that PvP is warranted. The spirit of the game, which many people convienently tend to forget, is a cooperative party of heroes saving the day. Sure, you CAN turn it into PvP, but the rules/spells/abilities of the PnP game were not created to facilitate balanced/fair PvP. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean that it SHOULD be done.
Cheers
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
DM-"If you roll a natural 20 its almsot gauranteed for something to die"
Boreas- (calls lightning from storm) *rolls a 20*
DM- ".......you nuke the damn area wityh lightning, are you happy now!?"
DM-"If you roll a natural 20 its almsot gauranteed for something to die"
Boreas- (calls lightning from storm) *rolls a 20*
DM- ".......you nuke the damn area wityh lightning, are you happy now!?"
UHHHhhh,, I beg to differ. DnD is nicely PVP. You have factions. Each faction based your characters roll in fighting. Who to trust and not to trust. PVP would be the only way to do this game.
You roll a Wizard ( Ok leaving the land of kids now ) not only do you figure out his stats you figure out your standing in the world .. Good wiz BLAAA or neutral wiz euwn or BAD wiz .. (YEAH baby) .. now you enter the world. You must find your challenges and fight for skills and items. You can group with people but the faction bases how they fight. If you group with a thief hes going to steal from you sooner or later .. that or you might find a dagger in your back.
I think if they do this right it would be awsome. Making it where when you die .. like in DnD your dead character is GONE .. would rock.
Babies play EQ .. us big boys play games of this nature.
Fix to be killed by me .. ( Evil - assassin at your serivce.)
But making friends is nice but getting your loot will be better.
Helllo, My name is Indego Montoya, You killed my father prepare to die.
(Repeat)
Helllo, My name is Indego Montoya, You killed my father prepare to die.
(Repeat)
Stop babbling. If you want a permadeath game where you can gank party members in the back, you're looking in the wrong place. Go act out your l33t awesome pk fantasies somewhere else, because this is definitely not the fundamental design of DnD.
Bark
Bark
Yeah, but you see, that's the problem. The majority of people don't role-play in these games ( which is why I have stopped using MMORPG mostly and using MMOG now). Speaking from my experience, when it comes to PvPers, it's not a majority, it's a totality. Why would you want to stop and "talk" as it might give up an advantage and you get "pwnz". The only 1st tier MMOG that has PvP that was implemented well is DAoC. The mechanics don't allow you to talk to others from other realms, however, the areas you go to where you would possibly meet up with those people are designated PvP areas. I enjoyed the game, and if their item decay wasn't so ridiculous I would still be playing.
The only RP I've seen from my years of playing UO, AC, SWG (these are MMOGs I've played that allowed non-structured PvP as opposed to DAoC's structured PvP) is that of a mute mass murderer (MmM). Run in, gank, run away, never a word spoken.
Besides, there needs to be a balance in having more MMOGs that focus on player cooperation than getting to the high levels so we can fight each other. I just want Turbine to stick to its statement of no-PvP.
Cheers
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez