Look at it this way: RPG is on one end of the spectrum, FPS is on the other. It's not like theres no gray area between the two. You could remove leveling or progression and still be far away from FPS. Hell, you could get rid of progression and still have a much more in depth character creation/customization system than most MMOs have right now. The only real purpose of levels in MMOs is to make up for a lack of content or features and to keep the players grinding away and paying their subs. Should all MMORPGs be level-free? No. But, I have no doubt that an MMO with out progression could succeed, it would just be a different game.
Progression does not have to be in the form of lvls.
Look at it this way: RPG is on one end of the spectrum, FPS is on the other. It's not like theres no gray area between the two. You could remove leveling or progression and still be far away from FPS. Hell, you could get rid of progression and still have a much more in depth character creation/customization system than most MMOs have right now. The only real purpose of levels in MMOs is to make up for a lack of content or features and to keep the players grinding away and paying their subs. Should all MMORPGs be level-free? No. But, I have no doubt that an MMO with out progression could succeed, it would just be a different game.
Progression does not have to be in the form of lvls.
That's the point I was trying to make...in a rambling, slightly incoherant sort of way. When I say "progression" I'm talking about progression of stats. I understand what you're saying about other forms of progression and I agree. There are probably plenty of examples out there of alternate forms of progression, but I doubt most MMO players would even consider that those examples might actually work in an MMORPG.
Look at it this way: RPG is on one end of the spectrum, FPS is on the other. It's not like theres no gray area between the two. You could remove leveling or progression and still be far away from FPS. Hell, you could get rid of progression and still have a much more in depth character creation/customization system than most MMOs have right now. The only real purpose of levels in MMOs is to make up for a lack of content or features and to keep the players grinding away and paying their subs. Should all MMORPGs be level-free? No. But, I have no doubt that an MMO with out progression could succeed, it would just be a different game.
Progression does not have to be in the form of lvls.
I agree totally, but I am sure that people will still complain no matter what you tried to replace them with.
In MMOs, 'Level' is just an abstract scale for describing the capabilities of given objects & entities. Unless everyone permanently plays on equal terms with no room for improvement apart from their own personal skill then there will always be something that will smell strongly of 'Levels'.
I think the main reason 'Levels' get such a bad press is that they are often intrinsically tied to 'Classes'. In a system where there was a limit to how much you could learn, but few restrictions on how you chose to apply yourself, things would be much more interesting.
In theory your capabilities in a given field might still be expressable as levels, but the combinations could provide so much more variety. I haven't played Pen & Paper RPGs much since I left University many years ago, but one of the things I miss the most is being able to find my own solutions to problems rather than being forced to follow set paths. Choosing unconventional ability & equipment combinations was fun.
I realise that MMOs will probably never reach the complexity of Pen & Paper RPGs, but being able to more creatively design your own career & abilities would be a step in the right direction.
If you can't "Have your cake & eat it too", then how can "The proof of the pudding be in the eating"?
As of today, I'd say if someone makes a MMORPG with levels, they are living in the past!
A game that cant survive without levels is lame and poorly designed. Just like a ladder its "take step 1, then 2, then 3"... instead of giving you a bunch of different paths.
Levels only function as a guiding hand to slowly unlock the game for you, giving you new attacks and challenges as you go.
It also makes it VERY EASY for developers to make the game. Since with levels it will be super easy to define what a player really can and cannot do, to really set the boundries right off the bat.
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Levels aren't a broken concept until people start rejecting them en mass, which would force the Blizzards of the world to come up with a new mechanic.
The reailty is that most people are easily entertained, and they don't want to have to think too hard about their games and the effort required to play them. While level grinding might be the online equivalent of reality television in terms of originality and substance, it sells, and is therefore not broken in the only sense that matters: the financial one.
Levels aren't a broken concept until people start rejecting them en mass, which would force the Blizzards of the world to come up with a new mechanic. The reailty is that most people are easily entertained, and they don't want to have to think too hard about their games and the effort required to play them. While level grinding might be the online equivalent of reality television in terms of originality and substance, it sells, and is therefore not broken in the only sense that matters: the financial one.
Well, that's pretty dismissive but whatever. I might be interesting to note that people also look for the easy way out in other things as well. I wonder how many people in this thread, when evaluated would yield surprising results of pedestrian tastes in books, movies, TV shows, Music, Beer, etc.
In any case, levels work and they allow a player to track their performance in a measurable way. The whole problem with stats is that it is sometimes hard to know what is being done if I make one thing "1 point better".
And besides, aren't stats just a different type of leveling? Are people trying to say that someone with fire knowledge of 50 as opposed to fire knowledge of 200 would just as readily be added to a group where mastery in that stat was important to the task at hand?
Are we saying that when people shout for groups there won't be a "looking for dps, must have strength of 500 and constitution of 800" or whatever stats define a good warrior?
More than likely what the real issue is, is the implementation of the game world in relation to levels. The idea that low level content is separated out from high level content, sometimes by significant area.
You end up getting new players logging into vacant or semi-vacant new player areas. Though I can see someone making the argument that that is done to spread the population out so as to not stress the servers.
In any case, people can handle stats but they have to have meaning. I recently dowloaded Asheron's call just to check it out. When making my character I noticed that I had all sorts of stats. Ok, neat let's see...
However, I had no idea if I was adding to a needed stat or gimping myself. I wanted to make a hybrid class but didn't really know how much of one thing would be needed to make one area effective as opposed to just missing out on being useful.
So sure, devs can make stat games but they have to make sense. Adding a number to another number with a title means nothing unless we can have some sort of indicator as to how much that addtiion will add or unless we can easily have a trial and error.
And in the end, I highly suspect you will still have people looking for players who have added to certain stats or max/min'ed their characters.
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But the problem is without levels and classes how can we define each other? A skill system worked great in UO but UO is completely different design concept the current group design based mmo, WoW included. WoW may be very solo friendly but it is designed around the group concept. What would lfg channel look like, "Looking for tank must have minimum 90 weapon skill, 90 tatics, 90 anantomy, 90 healing, 90 resist and 90 parry....".
How can you have a strickly skill based system and be able to identify each other so groups can form up? I don't have the answer. I would love if someone could come up with one tho.
Yes levels are a broken concept. But the problem is without levels and classes how can we define each other? A skill system worked great in UO but UO is completely different design concept the current group design based mmo, WoW included. WoW may be very solo friendly but it is designed around the group concept. What would lfg channel look like, "Looking for tank must have minimum 90 weapon skill, 90 tatics, 90 anantomy, 90 healing, 90 resist and 90 parry....". How can you have a strickly skill based system and be able to identify each other so groups can form up? I don't have the answer. I would love if someone could come up with one tho.
The problem is that 'skills' as you refer to are really just distributed levels. A level is just a milestone marker. In a pure level system the milestones are distributed in a linear fashion. In a skill based system the milestones are spread out in a more lateral fashion but their combinations still indicate a definate level.
In your example that 90/90/90/90/90/... tank could be refered to as an Level 2 tank since he is able to tank the second major boss of the game. While a 40/40/40/30 tank would be a level 1 tank for a similar reason. It's just a question of how you want to define your milestones.
Yes levels are a broken concept. But the problem is without levels and classes how can we define each other? A skill system worked great in UO but UO is completely different design concept the current group design based mmo, WoW included. WoW may be very solo friendly but it is designed around the group concept. What would lfg channel look like, "Looking for tank must have minimum 90 weapon skill, 90 tatics, 90 anantomy, 90 healing, 90 resist and 90 parry....". How can you have a strickly skill based system and be able to identify each other so groups can form up? I don't have the answer. I would love if someone could come up with one tho.
First - LFG is not a must in MMOs. It is something that has been created BECAUSE of the lvling prosess.
How about you log on and join 4-5 friends that you want to play with (or just 3 - 4 random ppl you meet at an NPC). The NPC then gives a quest out FOR THAT particular group. And all will benefit from it. In form of reputation, in form of experience (higher lvls getting more than lower lvls).
You are stuck in the thinking that oh.. Im lvl 80 and I have to find other lvl 80s to play with. Ever thought of a quest system where "lvl 1-10" is needed to talk to certain person to actually acomplish the quest ? And others will have to protect that lvl 1-10 person to get there. There are endless possibilites to create a PVE content. Since Massive in todays world stands more for 2v2 playing in 100 yard Arena rather than to go out look for real adventures - it might be abit hard for ppl to actually grasp this kinda gameplay. But "massive" sadly is a concept that most consider to be just about whos first to lvl 80 to get a title... Where the FIRST part is more important than the actual adventure.
Sorry - but a person that is "first" getting to certain lvls or first getting 100 mounts or whatever is probably the biggest RL looser imaginable. Still MMO developers are creating this content making the END content as the only thing that matters. That is calling for MORE loosers to spend MORE of their crappy life instead of doing something meaningfull.
MMos should be builid around NORMAL PPL that go to work, go to school and Live NORMAL life. It should be around ppl that deside to sit down infront of the computer instead of TV and say... "Hmm tonight I want to take part in an adventure. Lets see where I end up. " Getting to lvl XXX to do this and that and 1000 other things is not what most NORMAL ppl think about.
Its incredable to see how few years of WOW playing closes down EVERY single thoughprocess of what is possible for soo many ppl. One person asked - How are you gonna prevent ppl from doing all the content? ...
Seriously.... Lets take WOW WOTLK for example. Do you see a person lvl 70 go straight into a lvl 80 area ? Nope - Why ? Because he knows the content is to hard ? Or because the quests he is doing are POINTING him to certain direction. You dont need lvls to do that. Red, yellow and green colours already determine if mobs are in your killing range.
I know this is veryhard for many ppl to grasp. Experience that ppl are given for doing this and that ingame is what most ppl think of as the only way of doing things in MMOs now. There are games out there that use diffrent systems and are doing good job of it. And maybe... Just MAYBE this will eventually lead to ppl understanding that there is more to MMO than just go and KILL KILL KILL to gain exp to then get to Next lvl to then get an item that will make it easier to go KILL KILL KILL more to get abit mroe exp to get to the same lvl as this guy that is holding this item that I need to go KILL KILL KILL like 1000 monsters of this kind and 1000 monsters of that kind to be able to get to next lvl....
Maybe one day we will see something diffrent.... But it wont happen any time soon... Sadly..
I think levels are now a broken concept for experienced mmo vets, but were not a broken concept until very recently. Speaking only for myself, I cannot play a new mmo with levels. I just cannot bring myself to grind through levels yet again to get to the end game. Agree with me or not, that's just the way it is.
Yes levels are a broken concept. But the problem is without levels and classes how can we define each other? A skill system worked great in UO but UO is completely different design concept the current group design based mmo, WoW included. WoW may be very solo friendly but it is designed around the group concept. What would lfg channel look like, "Looking for tank must have minimum 90 weapon skill, 90 tatics, 90 anantomy, 90 healing, 90 resist and 90 parry....". How can you have a strickly skill based system and be able to identify each other so groups can form up? I don't have the answer. I would love if someone could come up with one tho.
So you just created lvls with that setup... Deep skill setups with a few skills with tons of points/Dots/levels is nothing but a level systems with out being called that. If you make each skill only have may 5-10 points if that with each point being significantly harder to upgrade, and you have a TON of skills you won't have a level system in skill system disguise.
I might be interesting to note that people also look for the easy way out in other things as well. I wonder how many people in this thread, when evaluated would yield surprising results of pedestrian tastes in books, movies, TV shows, Music, Beer, etc.
True, but that's exactly the issue we're talking about. There's always some amount of tension between the "core" crowd and the "mainstream" crowd. Jazz vs. pop/country, craft brews vs. macro brewed swill, themepark MMOs vs non-linear MMOs...
Of course, you can't expect every one to be part of every core crowd. All of us fall into the main stream crowd when it comes to some thing. The problem we have with MMOs is not that classes, levels, and theme parks exist, the problem is that they're dominating the market right now.
I might be interesting to note that people also look for the easy way out in other things as well. I wonder how many people in this thread, when evaluated would yield surprising results of pedestrian tastes in books, movies, TV shows, Music, Beer, etc.
True, but that's exactly the issue we're talking about. There's always some amount of tension between the "core" crowd and the "mainstream" crowd. Jazz vs. pop/country, craft brews vs. macro brewed swill, themepark MMOs vs non-linear MMOs...
Of course, you can't expect every one to be part of every core crowd. All of us fall into the main stream crowd when it comes to some thing. The problem we have with MMOs is not that classes, levels, and theme parks exist, the problem is that they're dominating the market right now.
I agree 100%. If only some of thsoe bigger companies had the brains to realize that the only way to compete with WoW is to try to appeal to the MMO players out there that want something DIFFERENT. There are really more of us than they seem to think.
Lvls will be never a broke concept of MMO 's experience, cuz It is one of the best systens get to Show how is going our progress in a MMO...
Btw, "lvling" is getting me bored, I do like a game where we don't have to get lvls to be more powerfull, it will be good... I hope get some Good result Playing Darkfall... ; )
But the pendulum is likely to start swinging away from strict class-based leveling systems..
Personally, I find the level system with zones for different levels, and a limited array of choices, to be pretty stifling.
My favorite system is one where you can only 'equip' 10 (for sake of argument) skills at a time. As you progress, you gain more options for interesting combinations. But even a low level with starter skills can contribute anywhere on the map.
Guild Wars progression is a great system. It woudl be more fun if the world were more free...
I personally like the leveling system. I do admit that it is old, and a game that can succeed without a leveling system (such as Darkfall) would be a nice break from the MMORPGs today that all seem to copy each other.
The reason I like the leveling system is because it gives a sense of accomplishment. You work for a certain amount of time to get to level 50 so you can get that new mount or spell, or go start leveling in that new zone, and once you hear that ding for the level, you get a good feeling that you finally made it. At least I do.
That isn't the only reason though. The other reason is because I really enjoy the social aspect of MMORPGs. The process of getting from level 1 to level 50 with a group of people, or a community is really fun for me. For example, in Final Fantasy XI, you would commonly spend most of your time in one zone killing the same monsters until you got up to a certain level. Then you would go to the next zone and repeat until you were a high enough level to stop and do a quest. Now I know that this sound really repetitive and boring, but for me it was a fun chance to group up with five random people and work together for the common goal of gaining a level or two.
As for people who say that the end game is the only good part of a MMORPG. I played Everquest 2 for a little over a year and had tons of fun leveling up and questing with my friends and guild mates. Once my friend and I hit the level cap, we ended up playing the game for a few more weeks and quit. I realize that a lot of game really aren't that much fun before you hit the level cap, but there's definitely a few that make it really fun in between when you start and when you hit the cap.
Of course all of this is my opinion. I may just be too nostaligic for old-school MMORPGs.
Currently on a quest to try every free-to-play MMORPG. Okay, maybe not every single one, but most of them.
I personally like the leveling system. I do admit that it is old, and a game that can succeed without a leveling system (such as Darkfall) would be a nice break from the MMORPGs today that all seem to copy each other. The reason I like the leveling system is because it gives a sense of accomplishment. You work for a certain amount of time to get to level 50 so you can get that new mount or spell, or go start leveling in that new zone, and once you hear that ding for the level, you get a good feeling that you finally made it. At least I do. That isn't the only reason though. The other reason is because I really enjoy the social aspect of MMORPGs. The process of getting from level 1 to level 50 with a group of people, or a community is really fun for me. For example, in Final Fantasy XI, you would commonly spend most of your time in one zone killing the same monsters until you got up to a certain level. Then you would go to the next zone and repeat until you were a high enough level to stop and do a quest. Now I know that this sound really repetitive and boring, but for me it was a fun chance to group up with five random people and work together for the common goal of gaining a level or two. As for people who say that the end game is the only good part of a MMORPG. I played Everquest 2 for a little over a year and had tons of fun leveling up and questing with my friends and guild mates. Once my friend and I hit the level cap, we ended up playing the game for a few more weeks and quit. I realize that a lot of game really aren't that much fun before you hit the level cap, but there's definitely a few that make it really fun in between when you start and when you hit the cap. Of course all of this is my opinion. I may just be too nostaligic for old-school MMORPGs.
I can understand that. But, one of the pros of a non-level based system would be that it promotes a bigger in-game community, since (in theory) every one can group up. Heres an example:
One of the alternatives that people have suggested is a "lateral progression system". What that means is your characters stats never increase, you just gain more skills/spells. So, new characters could start with the most fundamental skills and actually be useful to a group, while the more experienced characters are still much more rounded and versitile.
Personally, I think this is the most realistic alternative.
I can understand that. But, one of the pros of a non-level based system would be that it promotes a bigger in-game community, since (in theory) every one can group up. Heres an example:
One of the alternatives that people have suggested is a "lateral progression system". What that means is your characters stats never increase, you just gain more skills/spells. So, new characters could start with the most fundamental skills and actually be useful to a group, while the more experienced characters are still much more rounded and versitile.
Personally, I think this is the most realistic alternative.
Yep - lateral progression is a very attractive concept.
It is progression, as more tools clearly offer more capacity to deal with challenges. It also fulfils the desire for regular rewards. The thing I most look forward to when I level is not greater power, per se (as the mobs become more powerful with you, so you end up have the same relative power anyway), but more toys - a new spell, special effect, what have you.
Lateral progression will clearly give the advantage to a character with more skills, but offer a new player the potential to contribute even in a high level group. And while unlikely, there is always a chance for a single arrow from a low level character to be the arrow that ultimatley slays the king.
It gives a sense of meaningful impact right from the get go.
I also believe there is some room to get stronger armor, sharper swords, magical items in this system... while still leaving a well played lower level character a chance to overcome them.
Yeah, I can agree that a game with a lateral progression system would be nice. I'm hoping that Darkfall will cause some companies to go more toward this direction with their games because it would be nice to have some diversity in the MMORPGs that are available. Ideally, I would like to see some MMORPGs with the leveling system, and some without. I don't want to see the leveling system go away completely because I still like that classic feel it has to it, but a game with a good lateral progression system would be a huge step forward for MMORPGs.
Currently on a quest to try every free-to-play MMORPG. Okay, maybe not every single one, but most of them.
Comments
Progression does not have to be in the form of lvls.
Progression does not have to be in the form of lvls.
That's the point I was trying to make...in a rambling, slightly incoherant sort of way. When I say "progression" I'm talking about progression of stats. I understand what you're saying about other forms of progression and I agree. There are probably plenty of examples out there of alternate forms of progression, but I doubt most MMO players would even consider that those examples might actually work in an MMORPG.
Progression does not have to be in the form of lvls.
I agree totally, but I am sure that people will still complain no matter what you tried to replace them with.
In MMOs, 'Level' is just an abstract scale for describing the capabilities of given objects & entities. Unless everyone permanently plays on equal terms with no room for improvement apart from their own personal skill then there will always be something that will smell strongly of 'Levels'.
I think the main reason 'Levels' get such a bad press is that they are often intrinsically tied to 'Classes'. In a system where there was a limit to how much you could learn, but few restrictions on how you chose to apply yourself, things would be much more interesting.
In theory your capabilities in a given field might still be expressable as levels, but the combinations could provide so much more variety. I haven't played Pen & Paper RPGs much since I left University many years ago, but one of the things I miss the most is being able to find my own solutions to problems rather than being forced to follow set paths. Choosing unconventional ability & equipment combinations was fun.
I realise that MMOs will probably never reach the complexity of Pen & Paper RPGs, but being able to more creatively design your own career & abilities would be a step in the right direction.
If you can't "Have your cake & eat it too", then how can "The proof of the pudding be in the eating"?
Take the Hecatomb? TCG What Is Your Doom? quiz.
As of today, I'd say if someone makes a MMORPG with levels, they are living in the past!
A game that cant survive without levels is lame and poorly designed. Just like a ladder its "take step 1, then 2, then 3"... instead of giving you a bunch of different paths.
Levels only function as a guiding hand to slowly unlock the game for you, giving you new attacks and challenges as you go.
It also makes it VERY EASY for developers to make the game. Since with levels it will be super easy to define what a player really can and cannot do, to really set the boundries right off the bat.
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Levels aren't a broken concept until people start rejecting them en mass, which would force the Blizzards of the world to come up with a new mechanic.
The reailty is that most people are easily entertained, and they don't want to have to think too hard about their games and the effort required to play them. While level grinding might be the online equivalent of reality television in terms of originality and substance, it sells, and is therefore not broken in the only sense that matters: the financial one.
Well, that's pretty dismissive but whatever. I might be interesting to note that people also look for the easy way out in other things as well. I wonder how many people in this thread, when evaluated would yield surprising results of pedestrian tastes in books, movies, TV shows, Music, Beer, etc.
In any case, levels work and they allow a player to track their performance in a measurable way. The whole problem with stats is that it is sometimes hard to know what is being done if I make one thing "1 point better".
And besides, aren't stats just a different type of leveling? Are people trying to say that someone with fire knowledge of 50 as opposed to fire knowledge of 200 would just as readily be added to a group where mastery in that stat was important to the task at hand?
Are we saying that when people shout for groups there won't be a "looking for dps, must have strength of 500 and constitution of 800" or whatever stats define a good warrior?
More than likely what the real issue is, is the implementation of the game world in relation to levels. The idea that low level content is separated out from high level content, sometimes by significant area.
You end up getting new players logging into vacant or semi-vacant new player areas. Though I can see someone making the argument that that is done to spread the population out so as to not stress the servers.
In any case, people can handle stats but they have to have meaning. I recently dowloaded Asheron's call just to check it out. When making my character I noticed that I had all sorts of stats. Ok, neat let's see...
However, I had no idea if I was adding to a needed stat or gimping myself. I wanted to make a hybrid class but didn't really know how much of one thing would be needed to make one area effective as opposed to just missing out on being useful.
So sure, devs can make stat games but they have to make sense. Adding a number to another number with a title means nothing unless we can have some sort of indicator as to how much that addtiion will add or unless we can easily have a trial and error.
And in the end, I highly suspect you will still have people looking for players who have added to certain stats or max/min'ed their characters.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Yes levels are a broken concept.
But the problem is without levels and classes how can we define each other? A skill system worked great in UO but UO is completely different design concept the current group design based mmo, WoW included. WoW may be very solo friendly but it is designed around the group concept. What would lfg channel look like, "Looking for tank must have minimum 90 weapon skill, 90 tatics, 90 anantomy, 90 healing, 90 resist and 90 parry....".
How can you have a strickly skill based system and be able to identify each other so groups can form up? I don't have the answer. I would love if someone could come up with one tho.
The problem is that 'skills' as you refer to are really just distributed levels. A level is just a milestone marker. In a pure level system the milestones are distributed in a linear fashion. In a skill based system the milestones are spread out in a more lateral fashion but their combinations still indicate a definate level.
In your example that 90/90/90/90/90/... tank could be refered to as an Level 2 tank since he is able to tank the second major boss of the game. While a 40/40/40/30 tank would be a level 1 tank for a similar reason. It's just a question of how you want to define your milestones.
First - LFG is not a must in MMOs. It is something that has been created BECAUSE of the lvling prosess.
How about you log on and join 4-5 friends that you want to play with (or just 3 - 4 random ppl you meet at an NPC). The NPC then gives a quest out FOR THAT particular group. And all will benefit from it. In form of reputation, in form of experience (higher lvls getting more than lower lvls).
You are stuck in the thinking that oh.. Im lvl 80 and I have to find other lvl 80s to play with. Ever thought of a quest system where "lvl 1-10" is needed to talk to certain person to actually acomplish the quest ? And others will have to protect that lvl 1-10 person to get there. There are endless possibilites to create a PVE content. Since Massive in todays world stands more for 2v2 playing in 100 yard Arena rather than to go out look for real adventures - it might be abit hard for ppl to actually grasp this kinda gameplay. But "massive" sadly is a concept that most consider to be just about whos first to lvl 80 to get a title... Where the FIRST part is more important than the actual adventure.
Sorry - but a person that is "first" getting to certain lvls or first getting 100 mounts or whatever is probably the biggest RL looser imaginable. Still MMO developers are creating this content making the END content as the only thing that matters. That is calling for MORE loosers to spend MORE of their crappy life instead of doing something meaningfull.
MMos should be builid around NORMAL PPL that go to work, go to school and Live NORMAL life. It should be around ppl that deside to sit down infront of the computer instead of TV and say... "Hmm tonight I want to take part in an adventure. Lets see where I end up. " Getting to lvl XXX to do this and that and 1000 other things is not what most NORMAL ppl think about.
Its incredable to see how few years of WOW playing closes down EVERY single thoughprocess of what is possible for soo many ppl. One person asked - How are you gonna prevent ppl from doing all the content? ...
Seriously.... Lets take WOW WOTLK for example. Do you see a person lvl 70 go straight into a lvl 80 area ? Nope - Why ? Because he knows the content is to hard ? Or because the quests he is doing are POINTING him to certain direction. You dont need lvls to do that. Red, yellow and green colours already determine if mobs are in your killing range.
I know this is veryhard for many ppl to grasp. Experience that ppl are given for doing this and that ingame is what most ppl think of as the only way of doing things in MMOs now. There are games out there that use diffrent systems and are doing good job of it. And maybe... Just MAYBE this will eventually lead to ppl understanding that there is more to MMO than just go and KILL KILL KILL to gain exp to then get to Next lvl to then get an item that will make it easier to go KILL KILL KILL more to get abit mroe exp to get to the same lvl as this guy that is holding this item that I need to go KILL KILL KILL like 1000 monsters of this kind and 1000 monsters of that kind to be able to get to next lvl....
Maybe one day we will see something diffrent.... But it wont happen any time soon... Sadly..
I think levels are now a broken concept for experienced mmo vets, but were not a broken concept until very recently. Speaking only for myself, I cannot play a new mmo with levels. I just cannot bring myself to grind through levels yet again to get to the end game. Agree with me or not, that's just the way it is.
So you just created lvls with that setup... Deep skill setups with a few skills with tons of points/Dots/levels is nothing but a level systems with out being called that. If you make each skill only have may 5-10 points if that with each point being significantly harder to upgrade, and you have a TON of skills you won't have a level system in skill system disguise.
True, but that's exactly the issue we're talking about. There's always some amount of tension between the "core" crowd and the "mainstream" crowd. Jazz vs. pop/country, craft brews vs. macro brewed swill, themepark MMOs vs non-linear MMOs...
Of course, you can't expect every one to be part of every core crowd. All of us fall into the main stream crowd when it comes to some thing. The problem we have with MMOs is not that classes, levels, and theme parks exist, the problem is that they're dominating the market right now.
maybe not broken but definately played out, somthing innovative would be nice for a change
I never play engame, I like creating new characters. So it really depends on the players. But the OP does have a good point.
yes
True, but that's exactly the issue we're talking about. There's always some amount of tension between the "core" crowd and the "mainstream" crowd. Jazz vs. pop/country, craft brews vs. macro brewed swill, themepark MMOs vs non-linear MMOs...
Of course, you can't expect every one to be part of every core crowd. All of us fall into the main stream crowd when it comes to some thing. The problem we have with MMOs is not that classes, levels, and theme parks exist, the problem is that they're dominating the market right now.
I agree 100%. If only some of thsoe bigger companies had the brains to realize that the only way to compete with WoW is to try to appeal to the MMO players out there that want something DIFFERENT. There are really more of us than they seem to think.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
Lvls will be never a broke concept of MMO 's experience, cuz It is one of the best systens get to Show how is going our progress in a MMO...
Btw, "lvling" is getting me bored, I do like a game where we don't have to get lvls to be more powerfull, it will be good... I hope get some Good result Playing Darkfall... ; )
Or Not ~~
Reasonable minds can disagree on this one.
But the pendulum is likely to start swinging away from strict class-based leveling systems..
Personally, I find the level system with zones for different levels, and a limited array of choices, to be pretty stifling.
My favorite system is one where you can only 'equip' 10 (for sake of argument) skills at a time. As you progress, you gain more options for interesting combinations. But even a low level with starter skills can contribute anywhere on the map.
Guild Wars progression is a great system. It woudl be more fun if the world were more free...
I personally like the leveling system. I do admit that it is old, and a game that can succeed without a leveling system (such as Darkfall) would be a nice break from the MMORPGs today that all seem to copy each other.
The reason I like the leveling system is because it gives a sense of accomplishment. You work for a certain amount of time to get to level 50 so you can get that new mount or spell, or go start leveling in that new zone, and once you hear that ding for the level, you get a good feeling that you finally made it. At least I do.
That isn't the only reason though. The other reason is because I really enjoy the social aspect of MMORPGs. The process of getting from level 1 to level 50 with a group of people, or a community is really fun for me. For example, in Final Fantasy XI, you would commonly spend most of your time in one zone killing the same monsters until you got up to a certain level. Then you would go to the next zone and repeat until you were a high enough level to stop and do a quest. Now I know that this sound really repetitive and boring, but for me it was a fun chance to group up with five random people and work together for the common goal of gaining a level or two.
As for people who say that the end game is the only good part of a MMORPG. I played Everquest 2 for a little over a year and had tons of fun leveling up and questing with my friends and guild mates. Once my friend and I hit the level cap, we ended up playing the game for a few more weeks and quit. I realize that a lot of game really aren't that much fun before you hit the level cap, but there's definitely a few that make it really fun in between when you start and when you hit the cap.
Of course all of this is my opinion. I may just be too nostaligic for old-school MMORPGs.
Currently on a quest to try every free-to-play MMORPG. Okay, maybe not every single one, but most of them.
I can understand that. But, one of the pros of a non-level based system would be that it promotes a bigger in-game community, since (in theory) every one can group up. Heres an example:
One of the alternatives that people have suggested is a "lateral progression system". What that means is your characters stats never increase, you just gain more skills/spells. So, new characters could start with the most fundamental skills and actually be useful to a group, while the more experienced characters are still much more rounded and versitile.
Personally, I think this is the most realistic alternative.
I can understand that. But, one of the pros of a non-level based system would be that it promotes a bigger in-game community, since (in theory) every one can group up. Heres an example:
One of the alternatives that people have suggested is a "lateral progression system". What that means is your characters stats never increase, you just gain more skills/spells. So, new characters could start with the most fundamental skills and actually be useful to a group, while the more experienced characters are still much more rounded and versitile.
Personally, I think this is the most realistic alternative.
Yep - lateral progression is a very attractive concept.
It is progression, as more tools clearly offer more capacity to deal with challenges. It also fulfils the desire for regular rewards. The thing I most look forward to when I level is not greater power, per se (as the mobs become more powerful with you, so you end up have the same relative power anyway), but more toys - a new spell, special effect, what have you.
Lateral progression will clearly give the advantage to a character with more skills, but offer a new player the potential to contribute even in a high level group. And while unlikely, there is always a chance for a single arrow from a low level character to be the arrow that ultimatley slays the king.
It gives a sense of meaningful impact right from the get go.
I also believe there is some room to get stronger armor, sharper swords, magical items in this system... while still leaving a well played lower level character a chance to overcome them.
Yeah, I can agree that a game with a lateral progression system would be nice. I'm hoping that Darkfall will cause some companies to go more toward this direction with their games because it would be nice to have some diversity in the MMORPGs that are available. Ideally, I would like to see some MMORPGs with the leveling system, and some without. I don't want to see the leveling system go away completely because I still like that classic feel it has to it, but a game with a good lateral progression system would be a huge step forward for MMORPGs.
Currently on a quest to try every free-to-play MMORPG. Okay, maybe not every single one, but most of them.