Atlantica Online: Discussing the Backstory

Stradden · January 2009

Today, we here at MMORPG.com continue our series of Atlantica Online Dev Journals with Kim Tae Gon, the Producer of Atlantica Online. Today, we present a look at the game's backstory.

After delving into the turn-based combat system and the mercenaries of Atlantica Online in my previous developer's journals, I'd like to share with all of you the backstory of the game, and how we came to create our version of the Atlantis legend.

In Atlantica's take on Atlantis, the highly advanced civilization was the first to invent Oriharukon, an energy source produced by integrating four different crystals --Dragon, Phoenix, Giant, and Redemption crystals. With the Oriharukon, the people of Atlantis were able to evolve differently than other human civilizations at that time. Initially, Oriharukon was used just to amplify the magic abilities Atlantians had come to possess. But extensive research into the effects of Oriharikon unlocked new powers -- the ability to enhance the physical and mental skills of a person. It not only increased the strength of a human, but also increased a person's life expectancy, as Oriharukon slowed the aging process.

Read Discussing the Backstory

Boltonsquad · January 2009

Awesome game 10/10, something really different what MMO's have never done or ive never seen before.

Sisko2009 · January 2009

I'm still waiting for Atlantica to take action against a Neo-Nazi guild called "Holocaustic" in the game. In Atlantica, a players username and guild name are displayed over the player. So a lot of the times when you play you have to see "Holocaustic" floating over people's heads and it's really not right to have to watch Neo-Nazis, racists or hate mongerers spewing their venom.

I've stopped playing until they take action against them.

***** Update *****

The name of the guild formerly named "Holocaustic" has changed to "Sentience". I think this is a very good development for the Atlantica community.

(January 22nd 2009 9:26 AM EST)

Binko · January 2009

Why must that be Nazi? Maybe it's just a name? Are you Jewish?

Anyway, great game!

tbiaslorin · January 2009

Agreed. Sometimes a name is just a name. There is also a guild with the name of a terrorist group in-game, and while I think the name is tasteless, I am glad they are people playing games and not blowing people up.

The word holocaust, while often associated with the Nazis, also has a meaning as just a noun. Have you actually discussed the name with the guild leaders or are you just assuming they are neo-Nazi? Have they harassed you or other players?

If someone is causing a disruption through their actions, by all means get the GM's involved. However, if they are just folks playing a game with what you consider a tasteless name, well, I don't think there is much you can do.

Sisko2009 · January 2009

Binko said:

Why must that be Nazi? Maybe it's just a name? Are you Jewish?

Anyway, great game!

----------------------------

I reply:

Well first, the creator of the guild said that the Holocaust was ""Rightly deserved by the Jews".

Secondly, the name "Holocaustic" could mean nothing other than idolizing the Holocaust.

As for my race, or religion, why would that matter? Isn't it racist to evaluate one's opinion based upon their race or religion?

Sisko2009 · January 2009

tbias said:

Agreed. Sometimes a name is just a name. There is also a guild with the name of a terrorist group in-game, and while I think the name is tasteless, I am glad they are people playing games and not blowing people up.

The word holocaust, while often associated with the Nazis, also has a meaning as just a noun. Have you actually discussed the name with the guild leaders or are you just assuming they are neo-Nazi? Have they harassed you or other players?

If someone is causing a disruption through their actions, by all means get the GM's involved. However, if they are just folks playing a game with what you consider a tasteless name, well, I don't think there is much you can do.

------------------------------------

I reply:

Sometimes a name is just a name. If the name is a Neo-Nazi name, then the name is a Neo-Nazi name. Just calling it a name, does not change that it is a Neo-Nazi name. If a game has a user rating of 0.0 and I say sometimes a game is just a game, that doesn't change the fact that the game has a 0.0 user rating.

As for what you can do about it, people can just not play the game, as I've stopped doing and they can also spread the word that the owners of the game do not mind if a Neo-Nazi group shows off their hate in the game.

Ozmodan · January 2009

Originally posted by Binko

Why must that be Nazi? Maybe it's just a name? Are you Jewish?
Anyway, great game!

What a immature and ignorant reply. Names are never just names.

The problem with all these free to plays, they do not invest in support staff to any extent. Hence you have to take the bad with the good. Names of players or guilds are rarely looked at.

Hate groups should never be tolerated at any level. Hopefully something will be done.

I don't play this game much anymore, the combat sequences just seems so staged and unnatural.

tbiaslorin · January 2009

Originally posted by Sisko2009

tbias said:
Agreed. Sometimes a name is just a name. There is also a guild with the name of a terrorist group in-game, and while I think the name is tasteless, I am glad they are people playing games and not blowing people up.
The word holocaust, while often associated with the Nazis, also has a meaning as just a noun. Have you actually discussed the name with the guild leaders or are you just assuming they are neo-Nazi? Have they harassed you or other players?
If someone is causing a disruption through their actions, by all means get the GM's involved. However, if they are just folks playing a game with what you consider a tasteless name, well, I don't think there is much you can do.

------------------------------------
I reply:

Sometimes a name is just a name. If the name is a Neo-Nazi name, then the name is a Neo-Nazi name. Just calling it a name, does not change that it is a Neo-Nazi name. If a game has a user rating of 0.0 and I say sometimes a game is just a game, that doesn't change the fact that the game has a 0.0 user rating.
As for what you can do about it, people can just not play the game, as I've stopped doing and they can also spread the word that the owners of the game do not mind if a Neo-Nazi group shows off their hate in the game.

The problem is you still haven't shown that it IS in fact a Neo-Nazi name, or guild, and you are judging a group of people without any evidence on the basis of a single word. I wonder who else did that in history? You are simply attaching to the word a connotation that YOU choose, no matter what the players of the guild actually think. If you choose to be so short-sighted, I can't stop you, and I hope you find a game better suited to your very thin skin.

One of the problems of political correctness is that people choose to be offended by the smallest things, and common sense has long been thrown out the window. What happened during the Holocaust was unimaginable, something none of us (unless you are a Holocaust survivor) can possibly imagine. I am not diminishing in the slightest what they have gone through, and I regularly find myself moved to tears by their stories and the stories of that era.

However, wanting to ban the use of certain words, and books, and ideas is something the Nazis also tried to do. Holocaust, as a noun, simply means great destruction; if used in that sense there is nothing wrong with the name of that guild. As stated, I agree with you that if the players really are Neo-Nazis and they are abusing or harming other players the GM's should do something. However, you've given no proof of your opinion other than the name of their guild, and have not said they ever did anything to bother anyone. So in this case, without any proof of your opinion, you are the only one causing an injustice by slandering their name here.

mindmeld · January 2009

can a word mean 2 diffrent thing for sure but.

pretty much everyone knows or thinks Holocaust, is about among other things the jew extermination and other groups and been used since 1800 for murder of a large group of people.

And if you use the word Holocaust you know it will cause problem and you want the attention regardless if its bad.

Finnaly how many here knows the word Holocaust, also means

The term holocaust originally derived from the Greek word holókauston, meaning a "completely (holos) burnt (kaustos)" sacrificial offering to a god. Its Latin form (holocaustum) was first used with specific reference to a massacre of Jews by the chroniclers Roger of Howden[7] and Richard of Devizes in the 1190s. Since the late 19th century, it has been used primarily to refer to disasters or catastrophes.

Most have googled or asked about it and would know its a hotly debated word , and if you have one ounce of dignity in you , you wouldnt use it pure and simple.

Myself i dont get upset to stop a game because of a word and its meaning but i totally understand people that will or do.

Sisko2009 · January 2009

Originally posted by tbiaslorin

The problem is you still haven't shown that it IS in fact a Neo-Nazi name, or guild, and you are judging a group of people without any evidence on the basis of a single word. I wonder who else did that in history? You are simply attaching to the word a connotation that YOU choose, no matter what the players of the guild actually think. If you choose to be so short-sighted, I can't stop you, and I hope you find a game better suited to your very thin skin.

One of the problems of political correctness is that people choose to be offended by the smallest things, and common sense has long been thrown out the window. What happened during the Holocaust was unimaginable, something none of us (unless you are a Holocaust survivor) can possibly imagine. I am not diminishing in the slightest what they have gone through, and I regularly find myself moved to tears by their stories and the stories of that era.

However, wanting to ban the use of certain words, and books, and ideas is something the Nazis also tried to do. Holocaust, as a noun, simply means great destruction; if used in that sense there is nothing wrong with the name of that guild. As stated, I agree with you that if the players really are Neo-Nazis and they are abusing or harming other players the GM's should do something. However, you've given no proof of your opinion other than the name of their guild, and have not said they ever did anything to bother anyone. So in this case, without any proof of your opinion, you are the only one causing an injustice by slandering their name here.

No, the problem is that you've made several mistakes. Firstly, you did not read my post where I said that the guild founder said that the Jews deserved the Holocaust. So that ends your argument about interpreting the guild name right there. I don't know how much clearer the guild leader could have been about his guild being a Neo-Nazi one.

Secondly, even if not for his admission that he thinks the Jews deserved the Holocaust, the name Holocaustic means that the guild itself is Holocaustic and since the guild is Holocaustic, they obviously have no problem with the Holocaust.

As for my supposed "thin skin", well I'm not thin-skinned, and thin or thick skin is irelevant to the issue anyway. The issue is mainly to inform people that the owners of Atlantica tolerate a Neo-Nazi group to advertise itself in their game. So any perspective gamer has the option of choosing to play such a game or not. Even people like yourself who dishonestly say that it's "thin-skinned" to take exception to Nazism, but then say "if the players really are Neo-Nazis and they are abusing or harming other players the GM's should do something" can still make an informed choice on the game now.

As for supposed "political correctness", this has nothing to do with politics. This is not about Democrats or Republicans, liberals or conservatives. If you want to talk about politics, go work for a campaign. This has nothing to do with politics.

As for what the Nazi's tried to do, well murdering human beings is something that Nazi's tried to do, and it's unfortunate that you think that this is less important than banning that ideology in a video game. You also fail to read what I said again. In case you are unable to understand common sense here, I am not the government. I am just letting people know what the owners of Atlantica have failed to do. I don't have the power to ban anything.

As for slander, it's not possible to slander a guild with the name "Holocaustic."

Lastly, had you not failed to read what you were replying to, the guild leader said the Jews deserved the Holocaust, so this is not a matter of "opinion" as you claim.

tbiaslorin · January 2009

Originally posted by Sisko2009

Originally posted by tbiaslorin

The problem is you still haven't shown that it IS in fact a Neo-Nazi name, or guild, and you are judging a group of people without any evidence on the basis of a single word. I wonder who else did that in history? You are simply attaching to the word a connotation that YOU choose, no matter what the players of the guild actually think. If you choose to be so short-sighted, I can't stop you, and I hope you find a game better suited to your very thin skin.

One of the problems of political correctness is that people choose to be offended by the smallest things, and common sense has long been thrown out the window. What happened during the Holocaust was unimaginable, something none of us (unless you are a Holocaust survivor) can possibly imagine. I am not diminishing in the slightest what they have gone through, and I regularly find myself moved to tears by their stories and the stories of that era.
However, wanting to ban the use of certain words, and books, and ideas is something the Nazis also tried to do. Holocaust, as a noun, simply means great destruction; if used in that sense there is nothing wrong with the name of that guild. As stated, I agree with you that if the players really are Neo-Nazis and they are abusing or harming other players the GM's should do something. However, you've given no proof of your opinion other than the name of their guild, and have not said they ever did anything to bother anyone. So in this case, without any proof of your opinion, you are the only one causing an injustice by slandering their name here.

No, the problem is that you've made several mistakes. Firstly, you did not read my post where I said that the guild founder said that the Jews deserved the Holocaust. So that ends your argument about interpreting the guild name right there. I don't know how much clearer the guild leader could have been about his guild being a Neo-Nazi one.

Secondly, even if not for his admission that he thinks the Jews deserved the Holocaust, the name Holocaustic means that the guild itself is Holocaustic and since the guild is Holocaustic, they obviously have no problem with the Holocaust.

As for my supposed "thin skin", well I'm not thin-skinned, and thin or thick skin is irelevant to the issue anyway. The issue is mainly to inform people that the owners of Atlantica tolerate a Neo-Nazi group to advertise itself in their game. So any perspective gamer has the option of choosing to play such a game or not. Even people like yourself who dishonestly say that it's "thin-skinned" to take exception to Nazism, but then say "if the players really are Neo-Nazis and they are abusing or harming other players the GM's should do something" can still make an informed choice on the game now.

As for supposed "political correctness", this has nothing to do with politics. This is not about Democrats or Republicans, liberals or conservatives. If you want to talk about politics, go work for a campaign. This has nothing to do with politics.

As for what the Nazi's tried to do, well murdering human beings is something that Nazi's tried to do, and it's unfortunate that you think that this is less important than banning that ideology in a video game. You also fail to read what I said again. In case you are unable to understand common sense here, I am not the government. I am just letting people know what the owners of Atlantica have failed to do. I don't have the power to ban anything.

As for slander, it's not possible to slander a guild with the name "Holocaustic."

Lastly, had you not failed to read what you were replying to, the guild leader said the Jews deserved the Holocaust, so this is not a matter of "opinion" as you claim.

Yep, I did miss that, my apologies; also my tone was less courteous than it should have been, so you have my apologies there as well. Just to verify, I will contact the guild leader tonight, as I have heard differing opinions on what he actually said, both here and on the offical Atlantica forums where this discussion initially occurred.

For those arriving late, here is the weeks old thread from the official forum:

http://atlantica.ndoorsgames.com/center/ATForum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11899&posts=22&start=1

Sisko, are you one of the original posters in this thread?

Moving on, I also said if the guild were abusing and harrassing folks, the GM's should step in. No one yet has said they were, just that folks were offended by the guild name. To me, that is the definition of thin-skinned and political correctness; being offended by a word, and trying to censor it because of that. At least in the US, the KKK and Neo-Nazis are allowed to march in the streets and make websites and have rallies and some folks, both Christian and Muslim, preach hate in their places of worship. That is their right. Do I despise them for that? Yes, and that is my right. However, I can not ask the governement to ban them from spouting their hate-speech, just as I wouldn't ask NDoors to do it unless they were truly harassing people.

So yes, I do believe that banning an ideology in game is a worse idea than standing up for the rights of people to think what they want, and that is in keeping with what the Founders believed. (Like the old saw 'I don't like what you say but I'll fight for your right to say it.')

As a private entity, NDoors does have the right to censor their game, and if they choose to (just like it ticks me off that I can't say God in game without it appearing like ####), I am ok with that. However, if they choose not to, I am also ok with that.

It's funny, if someone had come here asking for help in combating, through an in-game war or whatnot, a guild that spouted hate, I would say 'sign me up'. If someone had asked me to join a Pro-Israeli group called the IDF or Warriors of Samson with the sole purpose of combating a guild that espoused ugly views, I would say 'sign me up'.

However, if you want me to be offended and kick someone out of a game over a word, well, sorry, I'm not much for censorship, even for those ideas that offend my moral center.

I guess I am just an anomoly in this day and age, and I am annoyed by the people who are offended by the Cleveland Indians and the Washington Redskins, who want to sanitize our lives and our language, who want to take God out of the public forum, who think that games shouldn't keep score so they don't hurt our children's feelings, and who want to equate words with actions. Men and women used to be made of sterner stuff.

Sisko2009 · January 2009

Originally posted by tbiaslorin

Yep, I did miss that, my apologies; also my tone was less courteous than it should have been, so you have my apologies there as well. Just to verify, I will contact the guild leader tonight, as I have heard differing opinions on what he actually said, both here and on the offical Atlantica forums where this discussion initially occurred.
For those arriving late, here is the weeks old thread from the official forum:
http://atlantica.ndoorsgames.com/center/ATForum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11899&posts=22&start=1
Sisko, are you one of the original posters in this thread?
Moving on, I also said if the guild were abusing and harrassing folks, the GM's should step in. No one yet has said they were, just that folks were offended by the guild name. To me, that is the definition of thin-skinned and political correctness; being offended by a word, and trying to censor it because of that. At least in the US, the KKK and Neo-Nazis are allowed to march in the streets and make websites and have rallies and some folks, both Christian and Muslim, preach hate in their places of worship. That is their right. Do I despise them for that? Yes, and that is my right. However, I can not ask the governement to ban them from spouting their hate-speech, just as I wouldn't ask NDoors to do it unless they were truly harassing people.
So yes, I do believe that banning an ideology in game is a worse idea than standing up for the rights of people to think what they want, and that is in keeping with what the Founders believed. (Like the old saw 'I don't like what you say but I'll fight for your right to say it.')
As a private entity, NDoors does have the right to censor their game, and if they choose to (just like it ticks me off that I can't say God in game without it appearing like ####), I am ok with that. However, if they choose not to, I am also ok with that.
It's funny, if someone had come here asking for help in combating, through an in-game war or whatnot, a guild that spouted hate, I would say 'sign me up'. If someone had asked me to join a Pro-Israeli group called the IDF or Warriors of Samson with the sole purpose of combating a guild that espoused ugly views, I would say 'sign me up'.
However, if you want me to be offended and kick someone out of a game over a word, well, sorry, I'm not much for censorship, even for those ideas that offend my moral center.
I guess I am just an anomoly in this day and age, and I am annoyed by the people who are offended by the Cleveland Indians and the Washington Redskins, who want to sanitize our lives and our language, who want to take God out of the public forum, who think that games shouldn't keep score so they don't hurt our children's feelings, and who want to equate words with actions. Men and women used to be made of sterner stuff.

* I am the poster "Lich King" in that thread.

* You may choose to spin situations anyway you choose. You can say that being offended by Neo-Nazism is being thin-skinned, or being stuck on "political correctness." Of course I think that is absurd, but you are free to believe what you wish. It's no less absurd than a terrorist sympathizer mocking the dead, and then if you take offense, you are stuck on "political correctness."

* I've made my arguments about the merits of censoring hate groups on the thread you list. To quickly sum them up: if a company cannot censor hate groups in the game, then you cannot stop me from coming into your house and espousing hate.

The company owns the software and the server. You own your home. You can stop people from coming in your home and espousing hate. The company can stop people from coming on their server and espousing hate. Totally legal, totally free speech.

* I had actually considered personally wiping out Holocaustic, however among other reasons, you have to be the head of a nation to PK other players and I am not the head of any nation. Besides that hurdle, it's up to Atlantica's owners (Ndoors) whether or not they want Neo-Nazis advertising their beliefs or not. That's their decision.

* You do mention politics towards the end. While I am interested in keeping my powder dry for the "Holocaustic" guild, I will just mention that it is unfortunate that you choose to link keeping God in the public forum with so-called political correctness. That, at least, is debatable. Racism is not.

As for people used to being made of "sterner stuff", well I guess by your logic, it should be OK to go around calling people "mick", "wop", "n*gger", "broad", "wetback", etc. I would say that if someone can be "stern" enough to talk that shit, get out from behind your computer screen and say it to their face. Don't tell a Jew over the internet that you favor the Holocaust. Go up to a Jew ON THE STREET and tell him you favor the Holocaust. Do that, otherwise, you're merely enabling shit-talking internet cowards.

tbiaslorin · January 2009

Originally posted by Sisko2009

Originally posted by tbiaslorin

Yep, I did miss that, my apologies; also my tone was less courteous than it should have been, so you have my apologies there as well. Just to verify, I will contact the guild leader tonight, as I have heard differing opinions on what he actually said, both here and on the offical Atlantica forums where this discussion initially occurred.
For those arriving late, here is the weeks old thread from the official forum:
http://atlantica.ndoorsgames.com/center/ATForum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11899&posts=22&start=1
Sisko, are you one of the original posters in this thread?
Moving on, I also said if the guild were abusing and harrassing folks, the GM's should step in. No one yet has said they were, just that folks were offended by the guild name. To me, that is the definition of thin-skinned and political correctness; being offended by a word, and trying to censor it because of that. At least in the US, the KKK and Neo-Nazis are allowed to march in the streets and make websites and have rallies and some folks, both Christian and Muslim, preach hate in their places of worship. That is their right. Do I despise them for that? Yes, and that is my right. However, I can not ask the governement to ban them from spouting their hate-speech, just as I wouldn't ask NDoors to do it unless they were truly harassing people.
So yes, I do believe that banning an ideology in game is a worse idea than standing up for the rights of people to think what they want, and that is in keeping with what the Founders believed. (Like the old saw 'I don't like what you say but I'll fight for your right to say it.')
As a private entity, NDoors does have the right to censor their game, and if they choose to (just like it ticks me off that I can't say God in game without it appearing like ####), I am ok with that. However, if they choose not to, I am also ok with that.
It's funny, if someone had come here asking for help in combating, through an in-game war or whatnot, a guild that spouted hate, I would say 'sign me up'. If someone had asked me to join a Pro-Israeli group called the IDF or Warriors of Samson with the sole purpose of combating a guild that espoused ugly views, I would say 'sign me up'.
However, if you want me to be offended and kick someone out of a game over a word, well, sorry, I'm not much for censorship, even for those ideas that offend my moral center.
I guess I am just an anomoly in this day and age, and I am annoyed by the people who are offended by the Cleveland Indians and the Washington Redskins, who want to sanitize our lives and our language, who want to take God out of the public forum, who think that games shouldn't keep score so they don't hurt our children's feelings, and who want to equate words with actions. Men and women used to be made of sterner stuff.

* I am the poster "Lich King" in that thread.

* You may choose to spin situations anyway you choose. You can say that being offended by Neo-Nazism is being thin-skinned, or being stuck on "political correctness." Of course I think that is absurd, but you are free to believe what you wish. It's no less absurd than a terrorist sympathizer mocking the dead, and then if you take offense, you are stuck on "political correctness."

* I've made my arguments about the merits of censoring hate groups on the thread you list. To quickly sum them up: if a company cannot censor hate groups in the game, then you cannot stop me from coming into your house and espousing hate.

The company owns the software and the server. You own your home. You can stop people from coming in your home and espousing hate. The company can stop people from coming on their server and espousing hate. Totally legal, totally free speech.

* I had actually considered personally wiping out Holocaustic, however among other reasons, you have to be the head of a nation to PK other players and I am not the head of any nation. Besides that hurdle, it's up to Atlantica's owners (Ndoors) whether or not they want Neo-Nazis advertising their beliefs or not. That's their decision.

* You do mention politics towards the end. While I am interested in keeping my powder dry for the "Holocaustic" guild, I will just mention that it is unfortunate that you choose to link keeping God in the public forum with so-called political correctness. That, at least, is debatable. Racism is not.

As for people used to being made of "sterner stuff", well I guess by your logic, it should be OK to go around calling people "mick", "wop", "n*gger", "broad", "wetback", etc. I would say that if someone can be "stern" enough to talk that shit, get out from behind your computer screen and say it to their face. Don't tell a Jew over the internet that you favor the Holocaust. Go up to a Jew ON THE STREET and tell him you favor the Holocaust. Do that, otherwise, you're merely enabling shit-talking internet cowards.

I must say this is the liveliest discussion I've had about an online game since I played Mankind 10 years ago!

* You may believe my take is spin or not, just as you are spinning a single word into an ideology that you are offended by so much you want it censored. The group is not randomly whispering people and telling them Jews suck. The group is not shouting the channels that Jews are bad. The group is not harassing people, except to the extent where that word over their head drives some folks batty. I agree, we each have our opinion, and mine is that looking at a word over someone's head in-game and being offended by it is just a bit silly, thin-skinned, and trying to censor it is just more politically correct nannyism-gone-wild. I think actually going on a campaign on internet forums to get it censored is even more excessive, but well within your rights. (Just as my stand against censorship is getting to be a little excessive and silly, but well within my rights.)

* I never said NDoors didn't have the right to censor; I just disagreed with your desire to do so. If I invite you into my house, sure I'll let you speak your mind. You should not then be offended that I've invited over someone else and complain that he is wearing a Holocaustic t-shirt. You chose to be there. You have both come into my house to speak your mind, and I am not going to stop either of you. However, if you have not been invited, or disinvited, then you need to stop or I am within my rights to shoot you as an intruder. This is where NDoors comes in. They can choose, or not, to allow Holocaustic to exist, and I agree that is their right. That is both our point of view, and I have never denied it. And I wouldn't be offended if NDoors did actually ban them (though they should have the chance to change their name first).

* A single word is not advertising Neo-Nazi beliefs. If there were guilds in the game with the word Black, or White, or Yellow, I could attach all sorts of bad (or good) things to them if I chose. If the leader of the guild 'White' was a neo-Nazi and said that white people are the best, but the 2nd in command said 'White' means 'white as in Angels and white knight', should we ban them or not?

There is another guild with the name of a terrorist group as their guild name, and it ticks me off (just as much as Neo-nazis tick me off), but not to the extent where I want to force them to change it. You are attaching meaning to something, a guild name; they are not actively promoting to you their beliefs, it is the other way around and you are putting your definition onto that group of people. It sounds like you asked them what it meant and then got offended when he told you.

I believe that NDoors would be just as justified in determining whether they want thin-skinned censors advertising their beliefs or not, and choose to ban you as well, or deciding that I am too intolerant of censors and want to ban me. In both case, we should agree that that is NDoors' right as the owner of the 'house', correct? Did you see some of the signs at the protests over the Israel/Palistinian affair just recently? They were pretty disgusting, and if you think Holocaustic is bad, I hope you are crusading against them x 100. Again, although my opinion is that those rallies are disgusting and are true sponsors of 'hate speech', they are within the rights of a free people, and it is what makes us different than say, Cuba or Saudi Arabia or China.

* If you think that the mere mention of God in the public forum is 'unfortunate' and represents 'politics', now you know why I hate political correctness. Why is discussing God in the public forum debatable but racism not? I believe that a public forum is just that, public, and if people want to espouse hate-filled views, that's ok. I get to disagree with them, or not read it. Some of political correctnesses main targets is the Ten Commandments in the town square, prayers at high-school football games, and 'In God We Trust' on our dollar bills. If I went to a football game and they gave prayers in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Mandarin, and Swahili, but their intent is to provide a blessing on the game and that no one gets hurt, I'd say 'cool', even if I didn't subscribe to any of those beliefs. (Though I'm guessing you think that's not so cool)

* As a matter of fact, I believe that 'sticks and stones can break my bones, but words will never hurt me.' I am actually a member of at least one of those words you mention, and guess what my reaction to them is? So what. On a bad day they will all make me angry. On a really bad day I will hit you if you call me one. But guess what I will never do? Try to tell you that you can't say them. I've also never said there shouldn't be consequences to people's actions. If someone went up to a Jew on the street and said they favored the Holocaust, I would hope the Jew (and everyone else in the vicinity) would beat the crap out of the guy saying it. And then, most likely, the whole mob would get arrested: ie. consequences are a two-way street.

(Commercial break: I'm finding it kind of silly that we both agree in principle that the things and ideas in question are bad, but are spending so much time arguing about what the reaction to it should be. Just sayin'.=))

The word Tsunami has horrible connotations for 100,000 people that have died in them; does that mean we can't use the word Tsunami as a guild name? The problem with banning one guild name is that next you will be offended by the Galley Slaves, and then the Witch Doctors and then White Trash and then Tsunami and then Stalin's Momma, and so on. One reason Freedom of Expression is guaranteed in the Bill of Rights as an absolute is because censorship is a slippery slope that only ends when the censors say that the only words we can use to communicate are 'If, but, and the'. (and then they will ban the word 'but' because it sounds too much like the word 'butt')

* Enabling s***-talking internet cowards is not a crime. Every forum has them; most websites have them. And if you are offended as easily that the word Holocaustic makes you want the owners to ban it, then I'd be surprised if you spent any time at all not mad at someone.=)

Sisko2009 · January 2009

Originally posted by tbiaslorin
I must say this is the liveliest discussion I've had about an online game since I played Mankind 10 years ago!
* You may believe my take is spin or not, just as you are spinning a single word into an ideology that you are offended by so much you want it censored. The group is not randomly whispering people and telling them Jews suck. The group is not shouting the channels that Jews are bad. The group is not harassing people, except to the extent where that word over their head drives some folks batty. I agree, we each have our opinion, and mine is that looking at a word over someone's head in-game and being offended by it is just a bit silly, thin-skinned, and trying to censor it is just more politically correct nannyism-gone-wild. I think actually going on a campaign on internet forums to get it censored is even more excessive, but well within your rights. (Just as my stand against censorship is getting to be a little excessive and silly, but well within my rights.)

* I never said NDoors didn't have the right to censor; I just disagreed with your desire to do so. If I invite you into my house, sure I'll let you speak your mind. You should not then be offended that I've invited over someone else and complain that he is wearing a Holocaustic t-shirt. You chose to be there. You have both come into my house to speak your mind, and I am not going to stop either of you. However, if you have not been invited, or disinvited, then you need to stop or I am within my rights to shoot you as an intruder. This is where NDoors comes in. They can choose, or not, to allow Holocaustic to exist, and I agree that is their right. That is both our point of view, and I have never denied it. And I wouldn't be offended if NDoors did actually ban them (though they should have the chance to change their name first).

* A single word is not advertising Neo-Nazi beliefs. If there were guilds in the game with the word Black, or White, or Yellow, I could attach all sorts of bad (or good) things to them if I chose. If the leader of the guild 'White' was a neo-Nazi and said that white people are the best, but the 2nd in command said 'White' means 'white as in Angels and white knight', should we ban them or not?

There is another guild with the name of a terrorist group as their guild name, and it ticks me off (just as much as Neo-nazis tick me off), but not to the extent where I want to force them to change it. You are attaching meaning to something, a guild name; they are not actively promoting to you their beliefs, it is the other way around and you are putting your definition onto that group of people. It sounds like you asked them what it meant and then got offended when he told you.

I believe that NDoors would be just as justified in determining whether they want thin-skinned censors advertising their beliefs or not, and choose to ban you as well, or deciding that I am too intolerant of censors and want to ban me. In both case, we should agree that that is NDoors' right as the owner of the 'house', correct? Did you see some of the signs at the protests over the Israel/Palistinian affair just recently? They were pretty disgusting, and if you think Holocaustic is bad, I hope you are crusading against them x 100. Again, although my opinion is that those rallies are disgusting and are true sponsors of 'hate speech', they are within the rights of a free people, and it is what makes us different than say, Cuba or Saudi Arabia or China.

* If you think that the mere mention of God in the public forum is 'unfortunate' and represents 'politics', now you know why I hate political correctness. Why is discussing God in the public forum debatable but racism not? I believe that a public forum is just that, public, and if people want to espouse hate-filled views, that's ok. I get to disagree with them, or not read it. Some of political correctnesses main targets is the Ten Commandments in the town square, prayers at high-school football games, and 'In God We Trust' on our dollar bills. If I went to a football game and they gave prayers in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Mandarin, and Swahili, but their intent is to provide a blessing on the game and that no one gets hurt, I'd say 'cool', even if I didn't subscribe to any of those beliefs. (Though I'm guessing you think that's not so cool)

* As a matter of fact, I believe that 'sticks and stones can break my bones, but words will never hurt me.' I am actually a member of at least one of those words you mention, and guess what my reaction to them is? So what. On a bad day they will all make me angry. On a really bad day I will hit you if you call me one. But guess what I will never do? Try to tell you that you can't say them. I've also never said there shouldn't be consequences to people's actions. If someone went up to a Jew on the street and said they favored the Holocaust, I would hope the Jew (and everyone else in the vicinity) would beat the crap out of the guy saying it. And then, most likely, the whole mob would get arrested: ie. consequences are a two-way street.

(Commercial break: I'm finding it kind of silly that we both agree in principle that the things and ideas in question are bad, but are spending so much time arguing about what the reaction to it should be. Just sayin'.=))

The word Tsunami has horrible connotations for 100,000 people that have died in them; does that mean we can't use the word Tsunami as a guild name? The problem with banning one guild name is that next you will be offended by the Galley Slaves, and then the Witch Doctors and then White Trash and then Tsunami and then Stalin's Momma, and so on. One reason Freedom of Expression is guaranteed in the Bill of Rights as an absolute is because censorship is a slippery slope that only ends when the censors say that the only words we can use to communicate are 'If, but, and the'. (and then they will ban the word 'but' because it sounds too much like the word 'butt')

* Enabling s***-talking internet cowards is not a crime. Every forum has them; most websites have them. And if you are offended as easily that the word Holocaustic makes you want the owners to ban it, then I'd be surprised if you spent any time at all not mad at someone.=)

1) Since you have already conceded that "Holocaustic' is Neo-Nazi, your saying that I have spun the guild into a Neo-Nazi group, rather than them being a Neo-Nazi group is disingenuous of you.

2) OK, so you agree that NDoors is not violating any free speech rights by censoring the Neo-Nazi guild.

3) The single word "Holocaustic" is advertising their racist beliefs. Especially given, that the guild leader says that the Holocaust was "rightly deserved by the Jews", then the meaning of the guild name means just that. I am not attaching a meaning to anything. The guild leader attached his own meaning, and secondly the English language indicates what the meaning of the word is.

4) Ndoors is justified to do whatever they want. They can turn the entire site over to Neo-Nazis and their cowardly enablers. I am also justified to inform people that that is what they have done.

5) Again, you fail to comprehend the written word. I did not say that it is unfortunate whatever your beliefs are about God in the public sphere. I said that it is unfortunate that you choose to link defending God in the public sphere with defending racism in the public sphere.

6) Given that the motives of the guild master of "Holocaustic" have already been established, it is not analogous to talk about some hypothetical guild master of a hypothetical guild named "Tsunami". The guild master of Holocaustic is a known racist. The other hypothetical guild and guild master is totally unknown. No analogy there.

7) Well you can speculate about my personal life all you want. It's merely a diversion from the issue. The only reason you support this internet cowardice is because you regularly engages in this sort of trash-talking over the internet. You prefer talking trash over the internet since you know that if you had to do it in person, you never would, so you take the cowards way out and do it over the internet.

[Deleted User] · January 2009

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Kordesh · January 2009

I like how this thread has degenerated into people screaming at each other because they think that the world "Holocaust" in itself means only one thing and one thing alone, and that everyone else is too stupid to know of any other definition. You've practically managed to not only sit up in an ivory tower but bring your high horse with you too which is quite a feat. If the guild leader has said what was mentioned previously, then yes, it's out of line because it's obvious they are using it with ill intent and they should be banned for being racist dickbags (though likely they're just also immature kids trying to be edgy online). Otherwise, just STFU already. Welcome to your average f2p community, a pack of rabid 13yr olds trying to act "too kewl for skool" on the internet because "I know its offensive because it uses the word Holocaust as the root word and that was bad I learned it in history class yesterday ^^".

Sisko2009 · January 2009

Originally posted by Kordesh

I like how this thread has degenerated into people screaming at each other because they think that the world "Holocaust" in itself means only one thing and one thing alone, and that everyone else is too stupid to know of any other definition. You've practically managed to not only sit up in an ivory tower but bring your high horse with you too which is quite a feat. If the guild leader has said what was mentioned previously, then yes, it's out of line because it's obvious they are using it with ill intent and they should be banned for being racist dickbags (though likely they're just also immature kids trying to be edgy online). Otherwise, just STFU already. Welcome to your average f2p community, a pack of rabid 13yr olds trying to act "too kewl for skool" on the internet because "I know its offensive because it uses the word Holocaust as the root word and that was bad I learned it in history class yesterday ^^".

There was no screaming (at least not on my part) and no one claimed that anyone else is too stupid to know of another definition. You just made all that up. STFU yourself, bitch.

Kordesh · January 2009

Originally posted by Sisko2009

Originally posted by Kordesh

I like how this thread has degenerated into people screaming at each other because they think that the world "Holocaust" in itself means only one thing and one thing alone, and that everyone else is too stupid to know of any other definition. You've practically managed to not only sit up in an ivory tower but bring your high horse with you too which is quite a feat. If the guild leader has said what was mentioned previously, then yes, it's out of line because it's obvious they are using it with ill intent and they should be banned for being racist dickbags (though likely they're just also immature kids trying to be edgy online). Otherwise, just STFU already. Welcome to your average f2p community, a pack of rabid 13yr olds trying to act "too kewl for skool" on the internet because "I know its offensive because it uses the word Holocaust as the root word and that was bad I learned it in history class yesterday ^^".

There was no screaming (at least not on my part) and no one claimed that anyone else is too stupid to know of another definition. You just made all that up. STFU yourself, bitch.

"Finnaly how many here knows the word Holocaust, also means" -mindmeld

I'd call that suggesting people are too stupid to know of any other definition.

Your expert use of "STFU BITCH" shows some real maturity totally putting to rest any argument that everyone posting walls of text about that stupid guild which has nothing to do with the topic, are whining children...

tbiaslorin · January 2009

Heh, upping the temperature a bit I see; so much for keeping the powder dry.=)

1) Since you have already conceded that "Holocaustic' is Neo-Nazi, your saying that I have spun the guild into a Neo-Nazi group, rather than them being a Neo-Nazi group is disingenuous of you.

* Hmm, where did I do that? I have implied that 'if it is, I still don't think the word should be censored'; quite different. I also said I would talk to the guild leader to make sure you weren't making crap up, because you have no given no proof that any of this entire situation is true, and to my knowledge, he has never posted on this issue on either the Atlantica or MMORPG forum and everything is currently just hearsay.

2) OK, so you agree that NDoors is not violating any free speech rights by censoring the Neo-Nazi guild.

* Yep, I always did. So you agree that NDoors would not be violating any free speech rights if they censored quasi-Nazi censors?

3) The single word "Holocaustic" is advertising their racist beliefs. Especially given, that the guild leader says that the Holocaust was "rightly deserved by the Jews", then the meaning of the guild name means just that. I am not attaching a meaning to anything. The guild leader attached his own meaning, and secondly the English language indicates what the meaning of the word is.

* So if a Neo-Nazi guild leader attaches a meaning to the word 'Bob' to mean 'I hate Indonesians' that is somewhow racist and should be banned? The word Holocaustic also means 'destroyed by fire'. If you wanted to ban every word hijacked by someone to give it two meanings, you'll be banning much of the English language. Pretty much what political correctness gone wild is about.

4) Ndoors is justified to do whatever they want. They can turn the entire site over to Neo-Nazis and their cowardly enablers. I am also justified to inform people that that is what they have done.

* Agreed. They could also turn the site over to quasi-Nazi censors and their cowardly enablers. I am also justified to inform people that this is what they might do.

5) Again, you fail to comprehend the written word. I did not say that it is unfortunate whatever your beliefs are about God in the public sphere. I said that it is unfortunate that you choose to link defending God in the public sphere with defending racism in the public sphere.

* Heh. Why is it unfortunate? Political correctness and it's associated boo-hooing is a sickness gone wild in our society, and should be fought in every discussion.

6) Given that the motives of the guild master of "Holocaustic" have already been established, it is not analogous to talk about some hypothetical guild master of a hypothetical guild named "Tsunami". The guild master of Holocaustic is a known racist. The other hypothetical guild and guild master is totally unknown. No analogy there.

* This is your way of avoiding the question. Again, if the motives of a person in a guild named 'Bob' are bad, should we ban the name 'Bob'? Analogies are often hypothetical in order to draw comparisons. You simply don't want to because it will show how ridiculous it is to censor a word with two meanings just because you don't like one of them. If we banned the leader of the guild and got someone in his place who is not a Neo-Nazi, and he proclaims that he is not a Neo-Nazi, would you still want to censor the word?

7) Well you can speculate about my personal life all you want. It's merely a diversion from the issue. The only reason you support this internet cowardice is because you regularly engages in this sort of trash-talking over the internet. You prefer talking trash over the internet since you know that if you had to do it in person, you never would, so you take the cowards way out and do it over the internet.

* Lol, now who is speculating about an issue? If we want to play 'I'm rubber and you're glue' game, then you are the coward in that you can't even read a word over someone's head in an MMO without getting all weak in the knees and offended so you go crying to the game's publisher for a tissue so you don't have to be offended any more. It is more cowardly to simply get the nanny-state to remove what offends you than actually having to confront it. I'd have infinitely more respect if you berated the guild leader for being a bigot and challenging him to a duel than I do for you trying to get Big Brother to protect your delicate sensibilities. Again, the definition of thin-skinned.=)

And you are participating in just as much trash-talking as anyone on this issue by telling me what I prefer, yes? And I don't regularly engage in trash-talking, though I did when I was younger; in fact, I thought up until this post we were having a relatively spirited discussion with a difference of opinion. I see trash-talking more as 'You're such a newb, loserbutt, and I could pwn u anytime.' The reason I chose to engage in this battle is because the whiners, the censors, the politically correcters have gotten so used to getting their way that it is time someone fought back, even in a tiny way.

Again, as I've said before, we agree in principle on everything about this subject, except for what the consequence should be. No matter what either of us says, nothing is going to change that, and thus I accept you in sort of a 'brother's in arms' kind of way.=) We both hate racism, bigotry and intolerance, and that's a good thing.

tbiaslorin · January 2009

To everyone in this thread, I apologize. After reading some of the 'other' comments, I realize it was inappropriate to spam forth huge walls of text.

Thus, this will be my last post in this thread, and what I wished I had said instead:

"I love Atlantica, and I love its backstory. While I think some of the translations come across as slightly wonky, overall the concept is quirky, fun, and memorable. I definitely look forward to seeing what else you come up with!

Additionally, while I believe that the vast majority of players abhore racism, I believe any comments regarding Atlantica's developers and their actions would be better served by a discussion in the Atlantica forum, either on thier site or here on MMORPG, instead of in a thread discussing Atlantica's backstory."

Thanks, and I'll shut up now!=)

Sisko2009 · January 2009

Originally posted by Kordesh

"Finnaly how many here knows the word Holocaust, also means" -mindmeld

I'd call that suggesting people are too stupid to know of any other definition.

Your expert use of "STFU BITCH" shows some real maturity totally putting to rest any argument that everyone posting walls of text about that stupid guild which has nothing to do with the topic, are whining children...

Well you could call that suggesting people are too stupid to know of any other definition. Too bad my name is not mindmeld. I will say one thing for you though. Whatever else you may say, you cannot read, sir.

As for my expert use of "STFU Bitch", too bad you ommit how you were the first one to say "STFU." If you're going to lie, you might want to put a bit more effort into it.

Sisko2009 · January 2009

Originally posted by tbiaslorin

Heh, upping the temperature a bit I see; so much for keeping the powder dry.=)
1) Since you have already conceded that "Holocaustic' is Neo-Nazi, your saying that I have spun the guild into a Neo-Nazi group, rather than them being a Neo-Nazi group is disingenuous of you.

* Hmm, where did I do that? I have implied that 'if it is, I still don't think the word should be censored'; quite different. I also said I would talk to the guild leader to make sure you weren't making crap up, because you have no given no proof that any of this entire situation is true, and to my knowledge, he has never posted on this issue on either the Atlantica or MMORPG forum and everything is currently just hearsay.

2) OK, so you agree that NDoors is not violating any free speech rights by censoring the Neo-Nazi guild.

* Yep, I always did. So you agree that NDoors would not be violating any free speech rights if they censored quasi-Nazi censors?

3) The single word "Holocaustic" is advertising their racist beliefs. Especially given, that the guild leader says that the Holocaust was "rightly deserved by the Jews", then the meaning of the guild name means just that. I am not attaching a meaning to anything. The guild leader attached his own meaning, and secondly the English language indicates what the meaning of the word is.

* So if a Neo-Nazi guild leader attaches a meaning to the word 'Bob' to mean 'I hate Indonesians' that is somewhow racist and should be banned? The word Holocaustic also means 'destroyed by fire'. If you wanted to ban every word hijacked by someone to give it two meanings, you'll be banning much of the English language. Pretty much what political correctness gone wild is about.

4) Ndoors is justified to do whatever they want. They can turn the entire site over to Neo-Nazis and their cowardly enablers. I am also justified to inform people that that is what they have done.

* Agreed. They could also turn the site over to quasi-Nazi censors and their cowardly enablers. I am also justified to inform people that this is what they might do.

5) Again, you fail to comprehend the written word. I did not say that it is unfortunate whatever your beliefs are about God in the public sphere. I said that it is unfortunate that you choose to link defending God in the public sphere with defending racism in the public sphere.

* Heh. Why is it unfortunate? Political correctness and it's associated boo-hooing is a sickness gone wild in our society, and should be fought in every discussion.
6) Given that the motives of the guild master of "Holocaustic" have already been established, it is not analogous to talk about some hypothetical guild master of a hypothetical guild named "Tsunami". The guild master of Holocaustic is a known racist. The other hypothetical guild and guild master is totally unknown. No analogy there.

* This is your way of avoiding the question. Again, if the motives of a person in a guild named 'Bob' are bad, should we ban the name 'Bob'? Analogies are often hypothetical in order to draw comparisons. You simply don't want to because it will show how ridiculous it is to censor a word with two meanings just because you don't like one of them. If we banned the leader of the guild and got someone in his place who is not a Neo-Nazi, and he proclaims that he is not a Neo-Nazi, would you still want to censor the word?

7) Well you can speculate about my personal life all you want. It's merely a diversion from the issue. The only reason you support this internet cowardice is because you regularly engages in this sort of trash-talking over the internet. You prefer talking trash over the internet since you know that if you had to do it in person, you never would, so you take the cowards way out and do it over the internet.

* Lol, now who is speculating about an issue? If we want to play 'I'm rubber and you're glue' game, then you are the coward in that you can't even read a word over someone's head in an MMO without getting all weak in the knees and offended so you go crying to the game's publisher for a tissue so you don't have to be offended any more. It is more cowardly to simply get the nanny-state to remove what offends you than actually having to confront it. I'd have infinitely more respect if you berated the guild leader for being a bigot and challenging him to a duel than I do for you trying to get Big Brother to protect your delicate sensibilities. Again, the definition of thin-skinned.=)
And you are participating in just as much trash-talking as anyone on this issue by telling me what I prefer, yes? And I don't regularly engage in trash-talking, though I did when I was younger; in fact, I thought up until this post we were having a relatively spirited discussion with a difference of opinion. I see trash-talking more as 'You're such a newb, loserbutt, and I could pwn u anytime.' The reason I chose to engage in this battle is because the whiners, the censors, the politically correcters have gotten so used to getting their way that it is time someone fought back, even in a tiny way.
Again, as I've said before, we agree in principle on everything about this subject, except for what the consequence should be. No matter what either of us says, nothing is going to change that, and thus I accept you in sort of a 'brother's in arms' kind of way.=) We both hate racism, bigotry and intolerance, and that's a good thing.

1) Here's what you said: "Yep, I did miss that, my apologies; also my tone was less courteous than it should have been, so you have my apologies there as well. Just to verify, I will contact the guild leader tonight, as I have heard differing opinions on what he actually said, both here and on the offical Atlantica forums where this discussion initially occurred."

So you admitted that you failed to read where I quoted the "Holocaustic" guild leader saying the Jews deserved the Holocaust. So it's not a question of any spinning (as you claim). He said he believes in Neo-Nazi ideology. Case closed.

2) Not really a question, just a childish swipe.

Since you're not actually discussing the issue here and just taking childish swipes, I'll stop replying to the bulk of your comments now.

So you can continue to talk your trash over the internet, whether it be personal insults or racist insults, however its obvious to see that you are too cowardly to repeat it to my face.

Sisko2009 · January 2009

***** Update *****

The name of the guild formerly named "Holocaustic" has changed to "Sentience". I think this is a very good development for the Atlantica community.

I have updated my first post on this thread to reflect this.

rogee14 · January 2009

Deleted this wasted thread, talk about derailed off topic ffs.

Kainis · January 2009

Originally posted by rogee14

Deleted this wasted thread, talk about derailed off topic ffs.

No kidding. I was looking toward learning more about the backstory from some players. Not a philosophical rant about symantix. Here is to hoping that future replies will stay on topic...

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