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Why Crafting Does Not Belong in MMORPG's
JK-Kanosi
Member Posts: 1,357
Before I begin my little rant, let me preface this with a bit about myself. I'm a 28 yr old gamer, a dad, a husband, and I've been playing MMORPG's since 2001. I've also studied Economics, and understand how markets work; supply and demand, equilibrium's and etc. All I ask is that you think critically about what I say and not shoot from the hip.
I believe crafting COULD offer an extra layer of depth to a MMORPG, and if it wasn't due to the fact that RPG"s in general cater to adventrous types, not crafter types, it'd probably do okay. You see, MMORPG's are games, not second lives, not alternate lives or anything some people like to use them for. This doesn't mean people cannot immerse themselves while playing or that I think it's wrong to, because after all, my all time favorite game was SWG and I loved to immerse myself in that game and roleplay.
My first point is that the majority of folks are adventurers and have no desire to craft. Their main goal is to experience adventure. Easy enough to understand, right?
Well, the IDEA of crafters offering goods and services sounds just as good in-game as merchants providing goods in the real worlds sounds good, because it offers a service for something we don't want to do ourselves. The difference between real life and a game, is that we only live parts of our characters lives. Most of us only live our characters adventurous part of their lives while in-game, and really only focus on it, while in our real lives, we do many things, because we have to, in order to afford the goods and services needed to survive. We don't play games to experience the same stress.
My second point is that games with crafting generally require adventurers to buy things from those crafters in order to compete in-game. This can be good or bad, depending on the players, but it turns out bad, because people don't play games to experience real life stress, in-game.
The bottom line is that people are greedy and as long as greed exist, avenues of allowing greed to ruin a game should not exist. In the games freshest in my memory, only crafters can produce most of the materials needed to craft the goods aventurers need in order to stay competitive in the game. Therefore, if an adventurer cannot raise enough money by adventuring, which most cannot without a lot of grinding, then they are forced to take up a crafting profession themselves in order to create their own stuff or supply materials for other crafters to create what the adventurers need.
So my third point is that the materials needed to craft things adventurers need are so overpriced that adventurers are forced to craft in order to stay competitive.
Let me bring you back to one of my earlier points. MMORPG's are GAMES that people play for FUN, and do not want to deal with the same stress they deal with in real life. I'm not saying you shouldn't work for things in a game, because working for something brings a greater degree of satisfaction than getting it instanty. BUT, players should be able to play that GAME in the way they see fit. Considering RPG's are known to cater towards adventurous people who like to build their characters up as they experience new adventures, it's only logical to expect developers to allow adventurers to be able to make it in a game by just adventuring. An imbalance is created when crafting is introduced in a game, because the crafted goods are needed in order to further adventure. This gives crafters power over the adventurers that adventurers don't have over crafters. Therefore, greed wins over crafters and the price of this greed is adventurers starting up crafting professions in order to compete in a genre whose very name has for decades catered to the adventurer.
The genre isn't MMOSIMS, or MMOMarkets; it's MMORPG's. I support crafting in MMO's as long as adventurers have the same power over crafters as crafters have over adventurers.
/discuss
P.S.- KEEP IT CIVIL PLEASE
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
Comments
Id have to say I dont agree with your post at all. In most mainstream MMO"s on the market right now, crafted items dont provide people that much of an advantage over other players if at all. Most good gear comes from PVP and raiding in most of the MMO's these days, the only exception ive played is vanguard where alot of the really nice stuff is crafted, until end game. My main problem with your post is the fact that you say crafting makes everyone poor, and unable to afford anything. Your so far off that mark right there its not even funny. Selling raw (harvested) materials on the open markets in MMO's, to crafters!, is one of THE best ways to make money. Its the easiest way to make money in wow, and it sure as heck has helped me make good money in vanguard, and in LOTRO, and in pretty much every other MMO ive played. It seems to me your just angry because everything is priced high and you dont feel like doing your part and putting inn alittle harvesting while you adventure. Ive never done a harvesting "run' I just collect materials while I adventure and ive always done quite well. If in the end I want something crafted I can collect the mats myself if need be and commision a crafter to make it, or I could spend the time to work up crafting myslef, which I find fun, especialy in vanguard. So there I kept it civil, but I dont agree with you at all.
crafting = timesink = revenue. Mmo's are hard pressed to provide content for gamers. Crafting takes care of players bored with killing x amount of mobs and gives the greedy a way to pick cyber pockets. It's a win/win for the company.
I'll also have to disagree with your post.
*if* Crafting is done right I believe it makes the whole game better. WoWish crafting IMO isn't very good and doesn't add alot where as a system like SWG's added tons to the game. Both Content wise, and for story telling / socializing (the clothing and player housing is still to this day not done anywhere else in the same degree save for SecondLife)
I don't play MMOG's to be a big adventurer, and I'm never first at doing anything because I put my time elsewhere. I create huge networks of people I know just from doing casual grouping, and I craft if that option is given to me. I also "suffer" from alt-oholicm and if the game offers more crafting professions than I have toon slots for I end up paying for extra accounts or spaces (like All-access for EQ2, must craft!)
I wish more MMOG's would focus on the player driven economy and the place the player crafting where it belongs so that the adventurers can enjoy their stuff, and those of us that enjoy providing the services can do that and still feel like we're helping out.
I just skimmed through your post because I noticed a glaring error in your though process right away and didn't feel the need to read the whole thing.
Your giant error is you are telling other people what an MMO should be, and how they should play it. You mention several times that an MMO is supposed to be "A game" and not an "Alternate life" and that the "game" is supposed to be fun. You completely fail to realise that many people find FUN in an MMO being a second WORLD for them to live in with an alternate character. You also claim that most people are the adventurous type, but does that mean that we shouldn't provide any entertainment for those that aren't? I personally am an adventurer, and when I first started playing SWG and saw their were pure crafting professions, I thought it was silly and that no one would play it, because my narrow minded view didn't think that there were other play styles. Well once in game, I couldn't believe how many crafters there were, and how much they enjoyed it. After a while I loved the amount of crafting in the game, the player driven economy, and ended up doing some crafting myself.
So, expand your mind a little. Just because YOU don't like crafting, and YOU are the adventurous type, doesn't mean everyone is.
While the crafting in current MMOs is really a sad excuse for what it could be, a good crafting system can provide a lot of extra stuff for EVERYONE to do, even adventurers.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Harvesting is a profession that isn't adventurous in nature. You don't harvest in any other RPG game to make money, instead you make money by selling the loot you get and through money drops. WoW in particular requires you to buy crafted goods, mainly gems, enchants, food/drink, and potions if you want to stay competitive in raids. If you don't craft or harvest, which in the end is the same thing really, you are SoL. I'm the pure adventurer type and prefer to make my money through loot and cash drops. When loot and cash drops isn't sufficient enough to buy crafted goods in a RPG, the crafters have too much power.
Whether or not harvesting or crafting is easy, isn't the point. The point is that if an adventurer plays as a pure adventurer, he has no market power in the game economy.
I log into WoW once a week to raid. Milderthed is my name, Gilneas is my server. Look me up if you don't believe me. I make around 200g a week from raiding, which obviously isn't sufficient enough to afford several hundred gold costing enchants, food, elixirs, or the mats to have them crafted. I absolutely WOULD have to do harvesting runs on a daily basis to afford that. Again, I'm playing the RPG the way RPG's have been played for decades. The reason I play online, is that I can adventure with other people, instead of alone. Crafting is an added component, an un-needed component, to the genre that I prefer not to get involved with in any measure, but am forced to in order to continue to play the game the way I prefer to play.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
I agree with the time sink theory. I usually complete content in under 6 months these days in modern MMORPG's and then I'm off to play another game, just as a person would go from one single player RPG to another. If I got involved in the economy of the game more directly, it would prolong the amount of time I'm subscribed to the game, but I wouldn't gain any enjoyment from that extra amount of time.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
You're not doing this thread any justice by cherry picking certain lines and words from the OP's statement, and then carrying on as if you coherently understand his argument. The OP made a connection between real-life stress, and how that is reflected on MMOs because of crafting - which is a very thought invoking concept. This is merely a postulation, so there's no need for personal vindictiveness - the OP obviously HAS "expanded his mind a little" in order to come to the conclusion that he did.
Again im going to have to dissagree with you, why should a game provide you with enough cashflow to keep your character competitive if you only log in ONCE a week. Its just sounding morea nd more like your too lazy and wish the game was easier to catter to your playstyle. In the end this is looking to be a "if you cant take the heat, get out of the kitchen" situation, and in this case, if you dont like WoW the way it is, simply dont play it, I dont anymore
I agree that SWG crafting was good and I liked and respected the crafters and the economy in that game. I participated in the market gladly, because the market was competitive and I was able to afford crafted goods by just adventuring. I was a loyal customer to crafters who treated me right, and all was well until the NGE hit.
That is definitely a good example of how crafting in a game should/could be. But the games more fresh in my mind are WoW and LoTRO, where you either craft your own goods or harvest materials for crafters to afford their goods. Both are things I prefer not to do, even if harvesting is just a little out of my way while adventuring. Imagine reading a good fantasy novel, and then in mid-sentence during a fight, they say, "Oh wow, a copper node, let me go mine that real quick and then I'll get right back to you."
In the end, I don't think we disagree with each other. We both support a well crafted economy in-game. Maybe I didn't explain things clearly enough in my OP. I either want NO ECONOMY or a GOOD ECONOMY. Not the type of economy that exists in modern MMORPGs. It's just too weighted towards crafters and harvesters atm.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
I agree that SWG crafting was good and I liked and respected the crafters and the economy in that game. I participated in the market gladly, because the market was competitive and I was able to afford crafted goods by just adventuring. I was a loyal customer to crafters who treated me right, and all was well until the NGE hit.
That is definitely a good example of how crafting in a game should/could be. But the games more fresh in my mind are WoW and LoTRO, where you either craft your own goods or harvest materials for crafters to afford their goods. Both are things I prefer not to do, even if harvesting is just a little out of my way while adventuring. Imagine reading a good fantasy novel, and then in mid-sentence during a fight, they say, "Oh wow, a copper node, let me go mine that real quick and then I'll get right back to you."
In the end, I don't think we disagree with each other. We both support a well crafted economy in-game. Maybe I didn't explain things clearly enough in my OP. I either want NO ECONOMY or a GOOD ECONOMY. Not the type of economy that exists in modern MMORPGs. It's just too weighted towards crafters and harvesters atm.
I think most can agree with that, but your title just begs people to disagree with you.
You're not doing this thread any justice by cherry picking certain lines and words from the OP's statement, and then carrying on as if you coherently understand his argument. The OP made a connection between real-life stress, and how that is reflected on MMOs because of crafting - which is a very thought invoking concept. This is merely a postulation, so there's no need for personal vindictiveness - the OP obviously HAS "expanded his mind a little" in order to come to the conclusion that he did.
If a person finds crafting or harvesting, or any MMO stressful, they need some serious medication im afraid. Its a GAME, juts like the OP says, unfortunately hes a hypocrit to his own argument. Its is a game, and im sure many people find it fun and NON STRESSFUL, if that isnt the case for him, its not the GAME for him.
I asked to keep this civil. Asking me to expand my mind is like saying I am narrow-minded. That's an insult and I took it as one.
Just because I wrote one post on the subject, doesn't mean that's all I think about it. As you can see, it was long enough as is, and if I posted EVERYTHING I thought about crafting, then no one would read it.
Do you really think I'm so blind as that I can't see that there are people that don't like to adventure, or that people like crafting in MMO's, or that some people prefer to live out their real lives in-game, rather than out of the game? Well, I've played MMORPG's long enough to where you'd have to be blind to not see that. This is why I didn't mention all of that in my OP. I assume, that people at least have basic knowledge on the subject, but I guess you don't, which is why you assumed I was narrow-minded on it.
Crafting can work and has worked in MMORPG's, and when it does work, it adds more depth to a game that even adventurers like myself love. BUT, MMO's aren't like SWG anymore and I've accepted the current state of MMORPG's and have learned to enjoy them for what they are. With that said, maybe I should have reworded my Topic as: Why Crafting Does Not Belong in the Current Batch of Modern MMORPG's. However, that's a mouthful and titles are meant to be shorter on forums.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
I first want to state that crafting in MMO's is not a bad thing. I personally dont craft because I find it boring. I would craft if it were handled differently. I dont have a problem with the actual crafting process in most games but how crafting as a whole is incorporated with other spheres of the games. My opinion is that crafting shouldnt rely so heavily on adventuring. A true crafter shouldnt have to be a high level adventure just so he can go into high level zones to mine uber rare rocks or slay high level creatures to get certain hides or pelts. In most MMO's you have to be a high level adventurer to be a productive crafter. I think crafting would be better if players commisioned certain items by bringing you the hides,ore,wood,etc and paid you to craft their items. An example would be advertise in a city that I craft shields. I would place my crafter in a trading center and players would come to me to do their work. That would be what aI would like.
I really don't understand the mentality of: "I don't like it, so it shouldn't be in MMOs."
There are people out there that love crafting; I'm thinking back to the hardcore crafters in UO, SWG and EVE especialy. I met quite a few awesome people who quite literally played the game only for the crafting skills and enjoying the RP of being "a merchant" and enjoying economic PvP.
The newer mainstream MMOs don't do crafting well, this is true. The solution to this isn't to just remove it, it's to bloody well make it better.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I think the biggest flaw in your theory is that people are competing in most games. Unless we are talking about hardcore pvp, then most crafted items are optional. To many people think they are required, because they more often than not replace pve rewards.
What usually makes crafting systems problematic is how they compete with adventuring rewards, because the two paths typically offer the same categories of rewards. Both would offer swords for example and most people flock to crafted items, because they are guarenteed rewards that are typically easier to obtain, especially for people that solo more than they group. Most games that have a decent crafting system suffer one of two fates. Either the crafted items are so good they tend to remove the desire/need to actually adventure or the pve rewards outshine the crafted ones. Most games I've played started out as one extreme and ended up at the other by max level.
Most developers think they can somehow balance both to make them both attractive paths of advancement, but that is nearly impossible. Instead they should make them augment each other.
Again im going to have to dissagree with you, why should a game provide you with enough cashflow to keep your character competitive if you only log in ONCE a week. Its just sounding morea nd more like your too lazy and wish the game was easier to catter to your playstyle. In the end this is looking to be a "if you cant take the heat, get out of the kitchen" situation, and in this case, if you dont like WoW the way it is, simply dont play it, I dont anymore
Thank you for your input. In the seven years or so that I've played, it's never crossed my mind that perhaps I should quit the genre, since I don't want to spend 20-30 hours a week playing it.
No seriously, I spent a lot of time per week leveling up, experiencing content and etc., but once you hit max level, the only thing to do is to raid if you want to see all of the content the game offers. When I say content, I mean story. I play RPG's for the story and character development. Except for sandbox games, because I approach those a lot different.
You can only raid a dungeon once per week. Currently, I'm trying to gear up for Malygos, which is the last raid I need to do in order to experience the last bit of content I haven't seen yet. Naxx, is the only raid I need, and as said, I can only raid it once per week. So why SHOULD I log into the game more than once a week? To make money? Is it more lazy to work in games, which you prefer, or to work in real life and experience adventure in games (which is what I look for)?
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
I think you should try out a game concentrated more on pvp than pve. It sounds like you would have more fun playing a game where a player's skill is required more than the latest piece of loot.
You're not doing this thread any justice by cherry picking certain lines and words from the OP's statement, and then carrying on as if you coherently understand his argument. The OP made a connection between real-life stress, and how that is reflected on MMOs because of crafting - which is a very thought invoking concept. This is merely a postulation, so there's no need for personal vindictiveness - the OP obviously HAS "expanded his mind a little" in order to come to the conclusion that he did.
If a person finds crafting or harvesting, or any MMO stressful, they need some serious medication im afraid. Its a GAME, juts like the OP says, unfortunately hes a hypocrit to his own argument. Its is a game, and im sure many people find it fun and NON STRESSFUL, if that isnt the case for him, its not the GAME for him.
Thank you Captain Obvious, but that remains to be seen. Currently, my DPS is competitive enough to keep raiding. I raid with a great group of guys/gals and they are reasonable and don't support the hyper-inflation the market has seen in-game either. I'm going to try and make it through the game without overspending on things that are overpriced and so far so good, but looking over the AH prices on goods made me think about the matter more in-depth, which prompted this post.
Maybe not you, but many people only play the current batch of MMORPG's as they would a single player game. Meaning, we level up, while enjoying the content along the way and the good company of others, and then we raid or PvP or whatever it is that end game offers in any particular game. After that, we move on to another game. This website is a testament to this sort of playstyle, otherwise it wouldn't exist. After all, if people stuck with one game, this website would be sort of useless. I mean look at how many games are represented on this website and think of how few players there are comparatively. The fact is that people bounce from one game to the next after they experience the game or get bored and want to experience another game. It's no different than single player games in that regard.
Anyways, I'm way off topic here. The major concensus on this thread so far is that crafting has it's place if it's created right, and SWG is given as the best example of how to do it. I agree with this sentiment. You've kind of narrowed the argument to one game, WoW, which wasn't intended and I supported the derailing of the thread by responding to you.
So back on topic.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
Have you checked EVE online's manufacturing?
I think we're in agreement then. You're idea has been done in some measure in sandbox games and I actually like that idea. But sandbox games are different and foster a different style of gameplay that linear games do not. For one, you create your own content, and a lot of people, including myself participate in building a community as that content. Part of building a community, is building an economy. What game economies need is an equilibrium, which they don't have, which is why I said crafting doesn't belong in MMORPG's. In MMORPG's current state, I could say crafting doesn't belong, or I could reword it and say crafting doesn't belong in it's current state. Either way, my message is the same and I don't think crafting works the way it's being done.
When crafters NEED to rely on adventurers for materials, and when adventurers NEED to rely on crafters for gear, it creates and equilibrium that balances out the economy. Completely opposite of today's crafting economies.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
In EVE, crafters are ultimately necessary for gameplay. They manufacture all kinds of important things. Their products are always in high demand.
The EVE virtual economy is not suffering either.
Yeah, EvE is another good example of crafting done right. But I'd expect nothing less in a game that employs economists to balance the economy.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
Whereas in some other games, crafting serves virtually little purpose.
You're not doing this thread any justice by cherry picking certain lines and words from the OP's statement, and then carrying on as if you coherently understand his argument. The OP made a connection between real-life stress, and how that is reflected on MMOs because of crafting - which is a very thought invoking concept. This is merely a postulation, so there's no need for personal vindictiveness - the OP obviously HAS "expanded his mind a little" in order to come to the conclusion that he did.
If a person finds crafting or harvesting, or any MMO stressful, they need some serious medication im afraid. Its a GAME, juts like the OP says, unfortunately hes a hypocrit to his own argument. Its is a game, and im sure many people find it fun and NON STRESSFUL, if that isnt the case for him, its not the GAME for him.
Thank you Captain Obvious, but that remains to be seen. Currently, my DPS is competitive enough to keep raiding. I raid with a great group of guys/gals and they are reasonable and don't support the hyper-inflation the market has seen in-game either. I'm going to try and make it through the game without overspending on things that are overpriced and so far so good, but looking over the AH prices on goods made me think about the matter more in-depth, which prompted this post.
Maybe not you, but many people only play the current batch of MMORPG's as they would a single player game. Meaning, we level up, while enjoying the content along the way and the good company of others, and then we raid or PvP or whatever it is that end game offers in any particular game. After that, we move on to another game. This website is a testament to this sort of playstyle, otherwise it wouldn't exist. After all, if people stuck with one game, this website would be sort of useless. I mean look at how many games are represented on this website and think of how few players there are comparatively. The fact is that people bounce from one game to the next after they experience the game or get bored and want to experience another game. It's no different than single player games in that regard.
Anyways, I'm way off topic here. The major concensus on this thread so far is that crafting has it's place if it's created right, and SWG is given as the best example of how to do it. I agree with this sentiment. You've kind of narrowed the argument to one game, WoW, which wasn't intended and I supported the derailing of the thread by responding to you.
So back on topic.
This thread was generated because you play wow and you dont like its system, which is alot different from many of the MMO's on the market....so you are pissed off at crafting in WOW, so you create a generalized statement about how crafting in ALL mmo's should be done away with, than back peddle a little when SWG is mentioned....than you back peddle AGAIN when EVE is mentions....your the one derailing your thread my friend, and not only that provideing a less that stable argument, your opinion seems to change on a whim, its clear to see this thread was emotionaly driven. I never mentioned you were speaking about WoW in particular, but based on your sig, and why you were frustrated it didnt take sherlock holmes to deduce you are talking mainly about WoW. This thread doesnt belong in the general forum, it belongs in the WoW forum because thats REALLY what your talking about. Im sorry you cant even realize that.
If you think is SUCH hard work to play a video game and mine some ore or do x other harvesting activities, id love to see your RL job evaluations on a yearly basis. Crafting in many games is fruitful, and enjoyable, unfortunatley in WoW it is mainly just a grind, and a cash cow for mat farmers. I know why your jaded and I can appreciate that, but I still dont agree with you one little bit, along with most of the other posters in this thread.
One important thing to remember about MMOs is that you're creating a community that caters to a wide variety of people. While some may be "pure adventurous" types, there are others that enjoy other aspects of a game, such as crafting. To appeal to only one demographic wouldn't be a very smart business tactic, and doesn't create much of a community in the game.
Out of all the MMOs I've played, the ones that encouraged players to cooperate in order to succeed had the best communities. While the in-game expenses might appear staggering to someone just starting out, there were usually plenty of Vets that had learned the ins-and-outs of the system, and were willing to help out the newcomers. While monopolies might emerge in certain parts of this type of market, they usually don't last long once other players realize there is a high demand and everyone is forced to price items competatively. On the reverse end of that spectrum, the MMOs I've played that required little to no player cooperation tended to have a relatively poor community.
While running around fighting and fighting stuff may be the only aspect of a game that appeals to you, there are a many MMO players out there that want a deep, immersive experience, and to many that means the ability to create the items in their world. To me it also means having a solid community with players that are capable of cooperating with each other. Otherwise you're just playing a single player game with a chat room.
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