I guess the grass is always greener on the other side. You think adventurers are too dependent on crafters? I've always felt that crafters are too dependent on adventurers for both materials and money, which is generated by the mere process of adventuring in most games.
You say that adventurers are forced to pick up a crafting skill to compete? Well in many games crafters HAVE to pick up an adventuring skill. Period. They don't even have a choice. Often, crafting abilities are tied to level, which can only be increased by adventuring. You may say you're less competitive if you don't craft, but in how many games are you literally forced to craft the way crafters are forced to adventure?
Nevertheless, I agree that the current system has its problems. Crafting often doesn't work as a system as well as it should, but that doesn't mean it doesn't belong.
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I had a whole trollish but witty response but what is the point?
Different strokes for different folks. Some people want to play a world simulator, some people want to play in a theme park, some people want to play second life and do degenerate and lascivious things like campaign for politicians (The sex industry in Second Life is actually honorable compared to that).
Basically, MMORPGs should be diverse as humanity is diverse.
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii. --In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses. --The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence! --CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
I noticed the OP made the point of repeatedly trying to drill in the fact that its a game. Well if everyone understands that its a game then how do they get stressed over crafting or stressed at all? A game frustrates you? Sure, but to say a game would stress you out? I've never encountered a crafting system so complex or infuriating that it made me want to go smoke or take anti-depressants.
I'm a bit of a crafter myself and in most games I've found crafting to be on the boring side and mostly something to pass the time or add some depth to the game by having guilds and crafting classes or skills.
I think the majority of people have taken the OP out of context, personally.
One of the things I really hate doing is having to gather materials to give to a crafter to get something, especially when you're trying to play through a game at your own pace. Now, I know allot of that can be attributed to the guild structure in many games, such as WoW, Lineage II, etc. However, I feel that the economy does not improve this, and lead's to a mentality that does not favor gamers who want to play at their own pace.
Many of you have brought up that the OP marks a certain type of player, "the adventurer", the mainstay of a game, and doesn't take into account other gaming styles, such as crafting. However, I believe the post (though I would disagree with some of the wording) does carry some weight. Many people on this thread for example for example have not taken into account the playing style of the poster for this thread, or have crudly said that they are completely wrong, or said that they are someone who feels that all competition, etc, should be removed.
So, to my opinion...
I personally feel that a good MMO allows all people to play the way they want to, within the means of the mechanics and constraints of any virtual world. The problem I would say is that these mechanics are not always well defined. Most games, because of the limitation of the mechanics, support a set of playstyles, but due to many of their systems, they favor a specific subset of that over the others. This is nothing more than an optimization problem, to be honest, as guides are often released witht the best ways to get from "Lvl 1-80" for certain classes, or "Max skills 0-100..." etc.
I am not saying this is directly the fault of players or the developers either. Players, especially those who are either competitive or completionist, which I tend to be, attempt to optimize the way they do things in any game. Eventually, an optimization is bound to be found, and once it has been, the game becomes, though time consuming, a trivial act. It can still be enjoyable to some, but it often fosters a mentality that others should do it the faster way as well, or they're just not seen as competitive or wanting to progress further in the game. I've seen this allot, especially in WoW and similar guild structures.
(I have been kicked out of allot; I eventually quit, because while I like to optimize, I like to optimize my way, which didn't work for allot of my guildies; they also expected me to make commitments that just didn't give me time in real life to do real life things; my friend is now going through the exact same thing, though he has put allot of real life on hold for his guild; excuse my tangent).
I will also note that I cannot completely fault developers for it either, though it is usually a system that is added half-assed near the end in the development of a game. It might be planned, but usually isn't given allot of attention.
Overall, I think that "adventurers" as you would call them, or non-crafters if you will, should not have to be relient on "crafters", and vice versa, unless that is the way the game was specifically structured and done well to boot.
I think the majority of people have taken the OP out of context, personally. One of the things I really hate doing is having to gather materials to give to a crafter to get something, especially when you're trying to play through a game at your own pace. Now, I know allot of that can be attributed to the guild structure in many games, such as WoW, Lineage II, etc. However, I feel that the economy does not improve this, and lead's to a mentality that does not favor gamers who want to play at their own pace. Many of you have brought up that the OP marks a certain type of player, "the adventurer", the mainstay of a game, and doesn't take into account other gaming styles, such as crafting. However, I believe the post (though I would disagree with some of the wording) does carry some weight. Many people on this thread for example for example have not taken into account the playing style of the poster for this thread, or have crudly said that they are completely wrong, or said that they are someone who feels that all competition, etc, should be removed. So, to my opinion... I personally feel that a good MMO allows all people to play the way they want to, within the means of the mechanics and constraints of any virtual world. The problem I would say is that these mechanics are not always well defined. Most games, because of the limitation of the mechanics, support a set of playstyles, but due to many of their systems, they favor a specific subset of that over the others. This is nothing more than an optimization problem, to be honest, as guides are often released witht the best ways to get from "Lvl 1-80" for certain classes, or "Max skills 0-100..." etc. I am not saying this is directly the fault of players or the developers either. Players, especially those who are either competitive or completionist, which I tend to be, attempt to optimize the way they do things in any game. Eventually, an optimization is bound to be found, and once it has been, the game becomes, though time consuming, a trivial act. It can still be enjoyable to some, but it often fosters a mentality that others should do it the faster way as well, or they're just not seen as competitive or wanting to progress further in the game. I've seen this allot, especially in WoW and similar guild structures. (I have been kicked out of allot; I eventually quit, because while I like to optimize, I like to optimize my way, which didn't work for allot of my guildies; they also expected me to make commitments that just didn't give me time in real life to do real life things; my friend is now going through the exact same thing, though he has put allot of real life on hold for his guild; excuse my tangent). I will also note that I cannot completely fault developers for it either, though it is usually a system that is added half-assed near the end in the development of a game. It might be planned, but usually isn't given allot of attention. Overall, I think that "adventurers" as you would call them, or non-crafters if you will, should not have to be relient on "crafters", and vice versa, unless that is the way the game was specifically structured and done well to boot.
I don't know of any games where either has to rely on the other. The problem is that these people aren't upset because they rely on each other, they are upset because they want the best of everything and in order to do that you have to partake in every aspect of the game.
You can't just say I want to play it my way and get everything by doing that, but at the same time it doesn't mean you have to rely on someone to play effectively. You can just raid and still be an effective player or just PVP and be effective. You won't be the best, but I think in order to be the best you have to put in that extra effort, and if the OP doesn't have it in him to take those extra steps then he has to settle with being average.
I don't know of any games where either has to rely on the other. The problem is that these people aren't upset because they rely on each other, they are upset because they want the best of everything and in order to do that you have to partake in every aspect of the game. You can't just say I want to play it my way and get everything by doing that, but at the same time it doesn't mean you have to rely on someone to play effectively. You can just raid and still be an effective player or just PVP and be effective. You won't be the best, but I think in order to be the best you have to put in that extra effort, and if the OP doesn't have it in him to take those extra steps then he has to settle with being average.
exactly!
When the original poster said "be competitive" I knew he was talking about exaclty what you just said.
No one can play a game at their own pace and at the same time be competitve. Those two statements contradict each other. Either you play at your own pace regardless of how your gear is compared to others or you want to be in a measuring content for gear.
The only way to have the above is to remove any obstacles or effort required to achieve anything in a game so that everyone can get whatever they want without any effort or interaction with other players.
Furthermore I just don't perscribe to the mindset that anything is "needed" in an mmo. Obviously there are nice things that are desirable and it is important to have goals, but nothing is manditory as far as I can tell. Especially to the point where developers need to remove an entire economy or playstyle option.
Wow, I just don't know where to start. I guess I'll start with a question. What mmo have you played? Because it seams to me that you have not played a single mmo ever with those statements.
Excluding UO and I guess Eve, which are different designs from most mmos, crafting is little more then a novality feature. No one has to buy anything from a crafter because all the gear from quest rewards and drops are far superior to crafted items.
First of all, the reason people got into MMOs in the first place in the late 90's is because they weren't "adventurer types" in an era dominated by "adventurer games" like Tomb Raider. I'm not saying things haven't changed, but at the start of these games with UO and MUDs, the games were dominated by "builder types," not "destroyer/achiever" types. Part of the reason MMOs took off was because they offered aspects of play that weren't available in action/adventure games...aspects like crafting.
Secondly, MMOs are by their definitions "second lives," whether we try to mask them or not. That's because they are persistant worlds that change alongside the persistant characters that also develop and change. The question, therefore, isn't whether they should try to be "second lives," because they cannot help but be second lives whether there is crafting or not. Rather, the question we should be asking is to what degree is an online life meaningful, and what are the avenues available to find meaning. Crafting is just one example of an area where a player can find meaning through play.
I agree that adventurers have no desire to craft, but that doesn't mean they don't appreciate a good crafting system when it's there. They benefit from a good in-game economy, because at least they know the goods are available and can be procured. The only other alternative is the looting system, which causes adventurers to grind meaningless MOBs until they meet that 1/10,000 chance for the loot they want, or they have to suffer through raids that take multiple hours to complete, with more players than there are loots to satisfy them.
I have to question the thought that in-game economies and crafting causes "stress" for these reasons:
1) There is no more stressful activity in the games than combat, especially the stress that comes with grinding for loots.
2) If people play the games for combat, then they want more stress in their lives, not less.
3) Crafting and other activities are actually breaks from the stress of non-stop combat, and allow someone to find meaningful reasons to stay in the game when they are "stressed out" doing quests.
I mean, how stressful can it be to trade the gold you looted off of monsters or earned during quests for the equipment you need? Is it any more stressful than grinding MOB after MOB and coming up empty, simply because the random number in the loot generator didn't give you something? Is it any more stressful than running quest after quest and boss after boss only to get some loot you don't want, don't need, or can't use after all the effort?
I also don't think that crafting systems create greed as much as looting systems and item stores create greed. Because the root of greed is the luxury of not having to care about others, which is something that games which allow players to acquire all things promotes.
I admit that sometimes, resources can be hard to find, or may be expensive. But if they are so rare and gamebreaking that the rarity is an issue, then the developer can simply cause more to spawn. The problem with heroic weapons and equipment is that they can only be acquired via heroic encounter, which means that there will always be either a shortage of them (causing stress) or an overabundance of them, meaning that the heroic item is no longer very heroic. Better to put lootmaking in the hands of the players, where they can fill any shortage that may arise through crafting new things.
I agree with saraphimknig who explains that good games try to accomodate preferences, not favor some over others. When economies are well designed, everybody's needs can be satisfied by doing the thing they are good at doing. Thus, adventurers can adventure exclusively, bringing that wealth back to town, where crafters can craft exclusively, exchanging that wealth for the goods and services they produce. Both depend on each other, and therefore, the needs of both are satisfied.
But if you give adventurers the power to equip and tend to themselves without any tradesman, then how is the tradesman going to find satisfaction in the game? By doing the thing they don't want to do (combat)? How is that fair to the crafter? If the answer to the in-game economy problem the OP talks about is to "wrest power from the crafters," then there's no reason for the crafter to exist, which is probably what the OP wants anyway.
But when we take away "building" and "servicing" from the games, we alienate a lot of computer gamers who take pleasure in such activities; like the millions who play The Sims or Sim City. We also reduce the ambiance of the game worlds. These are the folks that bring the games to life, and their departure makes the games seem shallow and bland. It would be like playing Fallout 3 without Megaton; it just wouldn't be as good.
So to conclude, I personally think that there isn't much value in the price we pay for these games when crafting and other non-combat things aren't around. Because all that's left is just a combat engine, a loot table, animations, and a thousand clones of xXDEATHDEALERXx running around doing the same things...and that's just boring.
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Originally posted by olddaddy So, how do the crafters set prices in WOW? What is their anchor on reality? By that I mean, anyone can dream up any price, but what is a product really worth?
My understanding is that in EQ2, you have to actually do something to craft, so that if you have the materials, cranking out 100 of an item is a non-trivial task. In WoW, crafting basically consists of getting the materials, clicking a button, and waiting a few seconds. If you want to craft 100 of something, you get the materials, click a button, and wait a lot longer. If it's a long wait, you go AFK, but move the mouse every several minutes so that the game doesn't catch that you're AFK and stop.
As such, in WoW, an item is basically worth whatever the materials to craft it cost, or possibly a lot less if there's a glut of the items from people trying to level crafting. The only real exceptions are if you're the only oen on the server who can craft an item, or if you can track down all such people and convince them all to collude on prices (which necessarily requires that there be few people). In that case, you've got a monopoly, so you charge as much as you can get people to pay.
How awful! Well I guess the OP will not enjoy the next thread I will start entitled: "Why combat does not belong in MMORPG's" how about you, would you go for that?
If the game has something else that it does well enough, sure. A Tale in the Desert has no combat, but it probably has the best crafting system there is (as distinguished from trading in a broader economy), so I played it for a year and a half.
I suppose the OP makes a valid point. MMOs are not our lives (or they shouldn't be), so why should we be subjected to the same stress and problems that we experience in real life? Of course, I find this to be a very narrow view that roughly correlates to the linear/thempark boom in recent years. Many players don't want worlds; they want games. This type of game works, for some, but it gimps the possibility of the MMO genre.
True, most people don't want exact replicas of life, so even games that advertise that they are real life (Second Life) have game-like systems (flying). Still, just the fact that people would play Second Life suggests that many people like the idea of worlds (as opposed to games). A sandbox MMO provides more than just a one way street. Sure, you can fight goblins if you choose, but you can also craft, explore, trade, and socialize.
The point is, "world simulations" are fun. Maybe not to everyone, definitely not to everyone, but there are people who actually enjoy playing hours upon hours of Sim City. Obviously the OP is not one of these people, that doesn't mean they don't exist. He just seems to be angry about the apparent power that crafters have over adventurers.
However, more often than not, adventurers have power over crafters: the power to kill them. In a game where crafting is a feasible method of progression, the crafting players will usually not be able to fend off the adventurers in combat. This creates a slightly violent version of the supply/demand system, but it works nonetheless. Even if this wasn't the case, crafters want money, and the adventurers have it. That's the only true power of the crafting system. The adventurers can't get any farther into the game without better gear, but the crafters can't expand their businesses unless they make equipment for the adventurers.
Basically, I see no problems with linear games that have no crafting to speak of. Why pretend you're something you're not? If you're going to half-ass the crafting system and market, then there's no point in doing it at all. However, a sandbox game needs crafters. It cannot properly function without them. Personally, I prefer a crafting-oriented sandbox world, but to each his own.
Crafting does wonders for MMO's, if done correctly. SWG had it right until they started making loot drops better than crafted items. Sure, the good crafters horded tons of money, but at the time, that's what they did when they logged in. Crafted. While the rest were off killing and exploring, crafters made the tools essential for them to do so. The economy is never going to be perfect in any MMO, there's always exploiters and dupers and the like in any online game. In my mind no game has thus far topped SWG's crafting system, and how well it brought the community together by making you actually visit the home/store of the crafter to buy the items.
Not everyone gets stressed out by this type of gameplay. I loved it.
I'm not a crafter. I hate crafting in fact. But I understand that for some people its their preferred style of gameplay which makes MMO's much more interesting.
I support a good crafting system, as long as the developers can keep it more or less balanced. I hate playing games like L2 where you basically had to craft to be earn enough money to pay for your gear. As long as you can basically earn enough money adventuring to pay crafters for their wares I'm all good.
EVE's like this. It has a robust crafting economy, and yet I can avoid crafting (and harvesting) completely and not feel like a 2nd class citizen. Sure, I'm impressed by someone who can build a Titan, and I'm sure its very profitable for them, but I'm not envious, because the game mechanics allow me to earn enough ISK shooting stuff that I'm able to purchase the ships and upgrades that I'm looking for.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Originally posted by JK-Kanosi I log into WoW once a week to raid. Milderthed is my name, Gilneas is my server. Look me up if you don't believe me. I make around 200g a week from raiding, which obviously isn't sufficient enough to afford several hundred gold costing enchants, food, elixirs, or the mats to have them crafted. I absolutely WOULD have to do harvesting runs on a daily basis to afford that. Again, I'm playing the RPG the way RPG's have been played for decades. The reason I play online, is that I can adventure with other people, instead of alone. Crafting is an added component, an un-needed component, to the genre that I prefer not to get involved with in any measure, but am forced to in order to continue to play the game the way I prefer to play.
Interesting. I have never played WOW, only EQ 2.
So, how do the crafters set prices in WOW? What is their anchor on reality? By that I mean, anyone can dream up any price, but what is a product really worth?
As I stated in my post above, my prices are set as 3X fuel cost, to cover materials, labor, and overhead. I am sure if I arbitrarily threw out a price of 50 gold per item, someone might pay it. Or someone, like you, might decide "screw it, I'll raid for something better".
Right now in EQ 2 experience comes so easy you pretty much out level the gear/skills, which is an anchor on price reality.
If you like raiding, fine. But if you are a casual gamer, that doesn't have alot of loot, I want you to have fun, but I also want you to buy from me. As long as you can afford your equipment and skill upgrades you will enjoy your liesure activity of gaming in a competitive manner. And I will enjoy my nice house, furniture, paying my guildhall upkeep, etc. Mutual benefits if the market actually works.
Well, I cannot speak for all crafters for my server, and especially not for all of the WoW servers. Prices are set by three factors really: How much materials are; How much people are willing to pay; What others are pricing at. Now, this does actually resemble a real life economy on a very basic level, which is good.
The problem is that in WoW, you NEED gems for your gear, and IF you want to remain competitive, you also should get Food (provides buffs), Elixirs, and Enchants. Those particular things are actually expensive, and rightfully so after looking at the materials to create those things. However, the materials themselves are overpriced and my only conclusion is that they are in demand, which drives up the prices.
In other words, the market is working as intended, and those who gather or craft really don't have to worry about the inflation too much. Those who have to worry are the pure adventuring types, especially after max level when the things to do are reduced and making money becomes a grind if you want to make a lot of it. Again, nothing THAT new to the genre, it's just that in real life, you choose whichever career you want in order to make a living, to afford to buy those things that you need in life. In the game, you aren't free to choose your career, instead you are forced to craft or to gather, if you want to afford the goods crafters create.
So basically, an in-game economy mimmicks the basics of real life markets, however, the major flaw in in-game economies is that they aren't fleshed out enough to compensate for everyones lifestyle the way the real life economy fixes itself due to the freedom people have in the real world.
If a game can mimmick real life more, it's economy/market system will be a lot better. From my experience, sandbox games can offer this, but not linear games. Which is probably why WoW's economy suffers from extreme inflation, while EvE and old SWG had a way of balancing themselves out.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
Originally posted by JK-Kanosi Well, I cannot speak for all crafters for my server, and especially not for all of the WoW servers. Prices are set by three factors really: How much materials are; How much people are willing to pay; What others are pricing at. Now, this does actually resemble a real life economy on a very basic level, which is good. The problem is that in WoW, you NEED gems for your gear, and IF you want to remain competitive, you also should get Food (provides buffs), Elixirs, and Enchants. Those particular things are actually expensive, and rightfully so after looking at the materials to create those things. However, the materials themselves are overpriced and my only conclusion is that they are in demand, which drives up the prices. In other words, the market is working as intended......
It would seem to me that the WOW market is not working as intended, but suffers from the same sort of hyper-inflation that prices alot gamers out of contention. This adversely influences their "fun" factor.
Gathering and selling to crafters, and crafting and selling to adventurers, does not increase the money supply in the game, it only re-distributes it. Somehow in WOW, as in other games, the developers have increased the money supply out of proportion. This creates the problem that new gamers (starting out) and gamers that don't want to gather/craft become priced out of the markets through inflation.
POTBS also did this. Grinding and quests was the way money was introduced into the economy in a controlled manner, however they failed to introduce sufficient money sinks to counter it. Then they introduced ship insurance, meaning that when your ship sank you were re-imbursed in cash for the loss. Another introduction of money into the game without a corresponding counter. The result was hyper inflation, a Locust Mastercraft Corvette that originally sold for $6000 later sold for $24,000. A new player couldn't generate $24,000 to buy that Corvette, he/she was priced out of the market.
All gathers/crafters do is accumulate the money from the adventurers, and each other, acceptable as adventurers are the ones that create more money. However gatherers/crafters have no counter, so they accumulate hordes of cash. Then the adventurers protest, so the developer introduces more cash to make them (temporarily) happy. Enter inflation, and once again the adventurer gets the short end, as they were really better off without the inflation.
It's not the fault of the gatherers/crafters, it is the fault of the developers, for not adding AND removing money from the economy. It is poor game developement that is at fault here. Let's not give the game developers a free pass by telling them not to worry about balancing their game.
In the war between publishers and developers ("Just make the game more like Mario Cart"), maybe we shouldn't be so fast to green light the publishers agenda.
Before I begin my little rant, let me preface this with a bit about myself. I'm a 28 yr old gamer, a dad, a husband, and I've been playing MMORPG's since 2001. I've also studied Economics, and understand how markets work; supply and demand, equilibrium's and etc. All I ask is that you think critically about what I say and not shoot from the hip. I believe crafting COULD offer an extra layer of depth to a MMORPG, and if it wasn't due to the fact that RPG"s in general cater to adventrous types, not crafter types, it'd probably do okay. You see, MMORPG's are games, not second lives, not alternate lives or anything some people like to use them for. This doesn't mean people cannot immerse themselves while playing or that I think it's wrong to, because after all, my all time favorite game was SWG and I loved to immerse myself in that game and roleplay. My first point is that the majority of folks are adventurers and have no desire to craft. Their main goal is to experience adventure. Easy enough to understand, right? Well, the IDEA of crafters offering goods and services sounds just as good in-game as merchants providing goods in the real worlds sounds good, because it offers a service for something we don't want to do ourselves. The difference between real life and a game, is that we only live parts of our characters lives. Most of us only live our characters adventurous part of their lives while in-game, and really only focus on it, while in our real lives, we do many things, because we have to, in order to afford the goods and services needed to survive. We don't play games to experience the same stress. My second point is that games with crafting generally require adventurers to buy things from those crafters in order to compete in-game. This can be good or bad, depending on the players, but it turns out bad, because people don't play games to experience real life stress, in-game. The bottom line is that people are greedy and as long as greed exist, avenues of allowing greed to ruin a game should not exist. In the games freshest in my memory, only crafters can produce most of the materials needed to craft the goods aventurers need in order to stay competitive in the game. Therefore, if an adventurer cannot raise enough money by adventuring, which most cannot without a lot of grinding, then they are forced to take up a crafting profession themselves in order to create their own stuff or supply materials for other crafters to create what the adventurers need. So my third point is that the materials needed to craft things adventurers need are so overpriced that adventurers are forced to craft in order to stay competitive. Let me bring you back to one of my earlier points. MMORPG's are GAMES that people play for FUN, and do not want to deal with the same stress they deal with in real life. I'm not saying you shouldn't work for things in a game, because working for something brings a greater degree of satisfaction than getting it instanty. BUT, players should be able to play that GAME in the way they see fit. Considering RPG's are known to cater towards adventurous people who like to build their characters up as they experience new adventures, it's only logical to expect developers to allow adventurers to be able to make it in a game by just adventuring. An imbalance is created when crafting is introduced in a game, because the crafted goods are needed in order to further adventure. This gives crafters power over the adventurers that adventurers don't have over crafters. Therefore, greed wins over crafters and the price of this greed is adventurers starting up crafting professions in order to compete in a genre whose very name has for decades catered to the adventurer. The genre isn't MMOSIMS, or MMOMarkets; it's MMORPG's. I support crafting in MMO's as long as adventurers have the same power over crafters as crafters have over adventurers. /discuss P.S.- KEEP IT CIVIL PLEASE
Your premises are horribly flawed.
1. Most MMOs do not require you to use crafted gear. WoW is a perfect example. The best items are acquired by adventuring, not crafting. At a most, there is a tie (e.g. LoTRO).
2. It is also false that one needs to craft in order to get money in most MMOs. Many games, WoW included, provide tons of loot from adventuring that can be sold to crafters. This is often the most valuable stuff in the game. And then there are the "gathering" professions, which are not really crafting at all. Also, many MMOs allows you to earn tons of in-game money by simply running quests or simply fighting random NPCs. There's absolutely no need to craft for money. Name one mainstream MMO that requires you to craft for money.
3. Finally, you wrongly assume that people do not find crafting and running a virtual business "fun." Some people don't find the idea of getting their faces virtually bashed in by ogres to be fun. If non-adventuring aspects of games were not fun, there would be no Sims, Second Life, Sim-City, etc. Yet these games are enormously popular. There's no reason that they should not be incorporated into MMOs.
In fact, as I said before, in every MMO I've played (SWG, LoTRO, WoW, some EQ2), adventurers have just as much power over crafters, if not more, than the other way around.
____________________________________________ im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
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I guess the grass is always greener on the other side. You think adventurers are too dependent on crafters? I've always felt that crafters are too dependent on adventurers for both materials and money, which is generated by the mere process of adventuring in most games.
You say that adventurers are forced to pick up a crafting skill to compete? Well in many games crafters HAVE to pick up an adventuring skill. Period. They don't even have a choice. Often, crafting abilities are tied to level, which can only be increased by adventuring. You may say you're less competitive if you don't craft, but in how many games are you literally forced to craft the way crafters are forced to adventure?
Nevertheless, I agree that the current system has its problems. Crafting often doesn't work as a system as well as it should, but that doesn't mean it doesn't belong.
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I had a whole trollish but witty response but what is the point?
Different strokes for different folks. Some people want to play a world simulator, some people want to play in a theme park, some people want to play second life and do degenerate and lascivious things like campaign for politicians (The sex industry in Second Life is actually honorable compared to that).
Basically, MMORPGs should be diverse as humanity is diverse.
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I noticed the OP made the point of repeatedly trying to drill in the fact that its a game. Well if everyone understands that its a game then how do they get stressed over crafting or stressed at all? A game frustrates you? Sure, but to say a game would stress you out? I've never encountered a crafting system so complex or infuriating that it made me want to go smoke or take anti-depressants.
I'm a bit of a crafter myself and in most games I've found crafting to be on the boring side and mostly something to pass the time or add some depth to the game by having guilds and crafting classes or skills.
I think the majority of people have taken the OP out of context, personally.
One of the things I really hate doing is having to gather materials to give to a crafter to get something, especially when you're trying to play through a game at your own pace. Now, I know allot of that can be attributed to the guild structure in many games, such as WoW, Lineage II, etc. However, I feel that the economy does not improve this, and lead's to a mentality that does not favor gamers who want to play at their own pace.
Many of you have brought up that the OP marks a certain type of player, "the adventurer", the mainstay of a game, and doesn't take into account other gaming styles, such as crafting. However, I believe the post (though I would disagree with some of the wording) does carry some weight. Many people on this thread for example for example have not taken into account the playing style of the poster for this thread, or have crudly said that they are completely wrong, or said that they are someone who feels that all competition, etc, should be removed.
So, to my opinion...
I personally feel that a good MMO allows all people to play the way they want to, within the means of the mechanics and constraints of any virtual world. The problem I would say is that these mechanics are not always well defined. Most games, because of the limitation of the mechanics, support a set of playstyles, but due to many of their systems, they favor a specific subset of that over the others. This is nothing more than an optimization problem, to be honest, as guides are often released witht the best ways to get from "Lvl 1-80" for certain classes, or "Max skills 0-100..." etc.
I am not saying this is directly the fault of players or the developers either. Players, especially those who are either competitive or completionist, which I tend to be, attempt to optimize the way they do things in any game. Eventually, an optimization is bound to be found, and once it has been, the game becomes, though time consuming, a trivial act. It can still be enjoyable to some, but it often fosters a mentality that others should do it the faster way as well, or they're just not seen as competitive or wanting to progress further in the game. I've seen this allot, especially in WoW and similar guild structures.
(I have been kicked out of allot; I eventually quit, because while I like to optimize, I like to optimize my way, which didn't work for allot of my guildies; they also expected me to make commitments that just didn't give me time in real life to do real life things; my friend is now going through the exact same thing, though he has put allot of real life on hold for his guild; excuse my tangent).
I will also note that I cannot completely fault developers for it either, though it is usually a system that is added half-assed near the end in the development of a game. It might be planned, but usually isn't given allot of attention.
Overall, I think that "adventurers" as you would call them, or non-crafters if you will, should not have to be relient on "crafters", and vice versa, unless that is the way the game was specifically structured and done well to boot.
I don't know of any games where either has to rely on the other. The problem is that these people aren't upset because they rely on each other, they are upset because they want the best of everything and in order to do that you have to partake in every aspect of the game.
You can't just say I want to play it my way and get everything by doing that, but at the same time it doesn't mean you have to rely on someone to play effectively. You can just raid and still be an effective player or just PVP and be effective. You won't be the best, but I think in order to be the best you have to put in that extra effort, and if the OP doesn't have it in him to take those extra steps then he has to settle with being average.
exactly!
When the original poster said "be competitive" I knew he was talking about exaclty what you just said.
No one can play a game at their own pace and at the same time be competitve. Those two statements contradict each other. Either you play at your own pace regardless of how your gear is compared to others or you want to be in a measuring content for gear.
The only way to have the above is to remove any obstacles or effort required to achieve anything in a game so that everyone can get whatever they want without any effort or interaction with other players.
Furthermore I just don't perscribe to the mindset that anything is "needed" in an mmo. Obviously there are nice things that are desirable and it is important to have goals, but nothing is manditory as far as I can tell. Especially to the point where developers need to remove an entire economy or playstyle option.
Wow, I just don't know where to start. I guess I'll start with a question. What mmo have you played? Because it seams to me that you have not played a single mmo ever with those statements.
Excluding UO and I guess Eve, which are different designs from most mmos, crafting is little more then a novality feature. No one has to buy anything from a crafter because all the gear from quest rewards and drops are far superior to crafted items.
First of all, the reason people got into MMOs in the first place in the late 90's is because they weren't "adventurer types" in an era dominated by "adventurer games" like Tomb Raider. I'm not saying things haven't changed, but at the start of these games with UO and MUDs, the games were dominated by "builder types," not "destroyer/achiever" types. Part of the reason MMOs took off was because they offered aspects of play that weren't available in action/adventure games...aspects like crafting.
Secondly, MMOs are by their definitions "second lives," whether we try to mask them or not. That's because they are persistant worlds that change alongside the persistant characters that also develop and change. The question, therefore, isn't whether they should try to be "second lives," because they cannot help but be second lives whether there is crafting or not. Rather, the question we should be asking is to what degree is an online life meaningful, and what are the avenues available to find meaning. Crafting is just one example of an area where a player can find meaning through play.
I agree that adventurers have no desire to craft, but that doesn't mean they don't appreciate a good crafting system when it's there. They benefit from a good in-game economy, because at least they know the goods are available and can be procured. The only other alternative is the looting system, which causes adventurers to grind meaningless MOBs until they meet that 1/10,000 chance for the loot they want, or they have to suffer through raids that take multiple hours to complete, with more players than there are loots to satisfy them.
I have to question the thought that in-game economies and crafting causes "stress" for these reasons:
1) There is no more stressful activity in the games than combat, especially the stress that comes with grinding for loots.
2) If people play the games for combat, then they want more stress in their lives, not less.
3) Crafting and other activities are actually breaks from the stress of non-stop combat, and allow someone to find meaningful reasons to stay in the game when they are "stressed out" doing quests.
I mean, how stressful can it be to trade the gold you looted off of monsters or earned during quests for the equipment you need? Is it any more stressful than grinding MOB after MOB and coming up empty, simply because the random number in the loot generator didn't give you something? Is it any more stressful than running quest after quest and boss after boss only to get some loot you don't want, don't need, or can't use after all the effort?
I also don't think that crafting systems create greed as much as looting systems and item stores create greed. Because the root of greed is the luxury of not having to care about others, which is something that games which allow players to acquire all things promotes.
I admit that sometimes, resources can be hard to find, or may be expensive. But if they are so rare and gamebreaking that the rarity is an issue, then the developer can simply cause more to spawn. The problem with heroic weapons and equipment is that they can only be acquired via heroic encounter, which means that there will always be either a shortage of them (causing stress) or an overabundance of them, meaning that the heroic item is no longer very heroic. Better to put lootmaking in the hands of the players, where they can fill any shortage that may arise through crafting new things.
I agree with saraphimknig who explains that good games try to accomodate preferences, not favor some over others. When economies are well designed, everybody's needs can be satisfied by doing the thing they are good at doing. Thus, adventurers can adventure exclusively, bringing that wealth back to town, where crafters can craft exclusively, exchanging that wealth for the goods and services they produce. Both depend on each other, and therefore, the needs of both are satisfied.
But if you give adventurers the power to equip and tend to themselves without any tradesman, then how is the tradesman going to find satisfaction in the game? By doing the thing they don't want to do (combat)? How is that fair to the crafter? If the answer to the in-game economy problem the OP talks about is to "wrest power from the crafters," then there's no reason for the crafter to exist, which is probably what the OP wants anyway.
But when we take away "building" and "servicing" from the games, we alienate a lot of computer gamers who take pleasure in such activities; like the millions who play The Sims or Sim City. We also reduce the ambiance of the game worlds. These are the folks that bring the games to life, and their departure makes the games seem shallow and bland. It would be like playing Fallout 3 without Megaton; it just wouldn't be as good.
So to conclude, I personally think that there isn't much value in the price we pay for these games when crafting and other non-combat things aren't around. Because all that's left is just a combat engine, a loot table, animations, and a thousand clones of xXDEATHDEALERXx running around doing the same things...and that's just boring.
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My understanding is that in EQ2, you have to actually do something to craft, so that if you have the materials, cranking out 100 of an item is a non-trivial task. In WoW, crafting basically consists of getting the materials, clicking a button, and waiting a few seconds. If you want to craft 100 of something, you get the materials, click a button, and wait a lot longer. If it's a long wait, you go AFK, but move the mouse every several minutes so that the game doesn't catch that you're AFK and stop.
As such, in WoW, an item is basically worth whatever the materials to craft it cost, or possibly a lot less if there's a glut of the items from people trying to level crafting. The only real exceptions are if you're the only oen on the server who can craft an item, or if you can track down all such people and convince them all to collude on prices (which necessarily requires that there be few people). In that case, you've got a monopoly, so you charge as much as you can get people to pay.
If the game has something else that it does well enough, sure. A Tale in the Desert has no combat, but it probably has the best crafting system there is (as distinguished from trading in a broader economy), so I played it for a year and a half.
The reason crafting is in MMO's is because MMORPG's are preparing the masses to become virtual assembly line workers.
I suppose the OP makes a valid point. MMOs are not our lives (or they shouldn't be), so why should we be subjected to the same stress and problems that we experience in real life? Of course, I find this to be a very narrow view that roughly correlates to the linear/thempark boom in recent years. Many players don't want worlds; they want games. This type of game works, for some, but it gimps the possibility of the MMO genre.
True, most people don't want exact replicas of life, so even games that advertise that they are real life (Second Life) have game-like systems (flying). Still, just the fact that people would play Second Life suggests that many people like the idea of worlds (as opposed to games). A sandbox MMO provides more than just a one way street. Sure, you can fight goblins if you choose, but you can also craft, explore, trade, and socialize.
The point is, "world simulations" are fun. Maybe not to everyone, definitely not to everyone, but there are people who actually enjoy playing hours upon hours of Sim City. Obviously the OP is not one of these people, that doesn't mean they don't exist. He just seems to be angry about the apparent power that crafters have over adventurers.
However, more often than not, adventurers have power over crafters: the power to kill them. In a game where crafting is a feasible method of progression, the crafting players will usually not be able to fend off the adventurers in combat. This creates a slightly violent version of the supply/demand system, but it works nonetheless. Even if this wasn't the case, crafters want money, and the adventurers have it. That's the only true power of the crafting system. The adventurers can't get any farther into the game without better gear, but the crafters can't expand their businesses unless they make equipment for the adventurers.
Basically, I see no problems with linear games that have no crafting to speak of. Why pretend you're something you're not? If you're going to half-ass the crafting system and market, then there's no point in doing it at all. However, a sandbox game needs crafters. It cannot properly function without them. Personally, I prefer a crafting-oriented sandbox world, but to each his own.
Crafting does wonders for MMO's, if done correctly. SWG had it right until they started making loot drops better than crafted items. Sure, the good crafters horded tons of money, but at the time, that's what they did when they logged in. Crafted. While the rest were off killing and exploring, crafters made the tools essential for them to do so. The economy is never going to be perfect in any MMO, there's always exploiters and dupers and the like in any online game. In my mind no game has thus far topped SWG's crafting system, and how well it brought the community together by making you actually visit the home/store of the crafter to buy the items.
Not everyone gets stressed out by this type of gameplay. I loved it.
I'm not a crafter. I hate crafting in fact. But I understand that for some people its their preferred style of gameplay which makes MMO's much more interesting.
I support a good crafting system, as long as the developers can keep it more or less balanced. I hate playing games like L2 where you basically had to craft to be earn enough money to pay for your gear. As long as you can basically earn enough money adventuring to pay crafters for their wares I'm all good.
EVE's like this. It has a robust crafting economy, and yet I can avoid crafting (and harvesting) completely and not feel like a 2nd class citizen. Sure, I'm impressed by someone who can build a Titan, and I'm sure its very profitable for them, but I'm not envious, because the game mechanics allow me to earn enough ISK shooting stuff that I'm able to purchase the ships and upgrades that I'm looking for.
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Interesting. I have never played WOW, only EQ 2.
So, how do the crafters set prices in WOW? What is their anchor on reality? By that I mean, anyone can dream up any price, but what is a product really worth?
As I stated in my post above, my prices are set as 3X fuel cost, to cover materials, labor, and overhead. I am sure if I arbitrarily threw out a price of 50 gold per item, someone might pay it. Or someone, like you, might decide "screw it, I'll raid for something better".
Right now in EQ 2 experience comes so easy you pretty much out level the gear/skills, which is an anchor on price reality.
If you like raiding, fine. But if you are a casual gamer, that doesn't have alot of loot, I want you to have fun, but I also want you to buy from me. As long as you can afford your equipment and skill upgrades you will enjoy your liesure activity of gaming in a competitive manner. And I will enjoy my nice house, furniture, paying my guildhall upkeep, etc. Mutual benefits if the market actually works.
Well, I cannot speak for all crafters for my server, and especially not for all of the WoW servers. Prices are set by three factors really: How much materials are; How much people are willing to pay; What others are pricing at. Now, this does actually resemble a real life economy on a very basic level, which is good.
The problem is that in WoW, you NEED gems for your gear, and IF you want to remain competitive, you also should get Food (provides buffs), Elixirs, and Enchants. Those particular things are actually expensive, and rightfully so after looking at the materials to create those things. However, the materials themselves are overpriced and my only conclusion is that they are in demand, which drives up the prices.
In other words, the market is working as intended, and those who gather or craft really don't have to worry about the inflation too much. Those who have to worry are the pure adventuring types, especially after max level when the things to do are reduced and making money becomes a grind if you want to make a lot of it. Again, nothing THAT new to the genre, it's just that in real life, you choose whichever career you want in order to make a living, to afford to buy those things that you need in life. In the game, you aren't free to choose your career, instead you are forced to craft or to gather, if you want to afford the goods crafters create.
So basically, an in-game economy mimmicks the basics of real life markets, however, the major flaw in in-game economies is that they aren't fleshed out enough to compensate for everyones lifestyle the way the real life economy fixes itself due to the freedom people have in the real world.
If a game can mimmick real life more, it's economy/market system will be a lot better. From my experience, sandbox games can offer this, but not linear games. Which is probably why WoW's economy suffers from extreme inflation, while EvE and old SWG had a way of balancing themselves out.
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Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
It would seem to me that the WOW market is not working as intended, but suffers from the same sort of hyper-inflation that prices alot gamers out of contention. This adversely influences their "fun" factor.
Gathering and selling to crafters, and crafting and selling to adventurers, does not increase the money supply in the game, it only re-distributes it. Somehow in WOW, as in other games, the developers have increased the money supply out of proportion. This creates the problem that new gamers (starting out) and gamers that don't want to gather/craft become priced out of the markets through inflation.
POTBS also did this. Grinding and quests was the way money was introduced into the economy in a controlled manner, however they failed to introduce sufficient money sinks to counter it. Then they introduced ship insurance, meaning that when your ship sank you were re-imbursed in cash for the loss. Another introduction of money into the game without a corresponding counter. The result was hyper inflation, a Locust Mastercraft Corvette that originally sold for $6000 later sold for $24,000. A new player couldn't generate $24,000 to buy that Corvette, he/she was priced out of the market.
All gathers/crafters do is accumulate the money from the adventurers, and each other, acceptable as adventurers are the ones that create more money. However gatherers/crafters have no counter, so they accumulate hordes of cash. Then the adventurers protest, so the developer introduces more cash to make them (temporarily) happy. Enter inflation, and once again the adventurer gets the short end, as they were really better off without the inflation.
It's not the fault of the gatherers/crafters, it is the fault of the developers, for not adding AND removing money from the economy. It is poor game developement that is at fault here. Let's not give the game developers a free pass by telling them not to worry about balancing their game.
In the war between publishers and developers ("Just make the game more like Mario Cart"), maybe we shouldn't be so fast to green light the publishers agenda.
Your premises are horribly flawed.
1. Most MMOs do not require you to use crafted gear. WoW is a perfect example. The best items are acquired by adventuring, not crafting. At a most, there is a tie (e.g. LoTRO).
2. It is also false that one needs to craft in order to get money in most MMOs. Many games, WoW included, provide tons of loot from adventuring that can be sold to crafters. This is often the most valuable stuff in the game. And then there are the "gathering" professions, which are not really crafting at all. Also, many MMOs allows you to earn tons of in-game money by simply running quests or simply fighting random NPCs. There's absolutely no need to craft for money. Name one mainstream MMO that requires you to craft for money.
3. Finally, you wrongly assume that people do not find crafting and running a virtual business "fun." Some people don't find the idea of getting their faces virtually bashed in by ogres to be fun. If non-adventuring aspects of games were not fun, there would be no Sims, Second Life, Sim-City, etc. Yet these games are enormously popular. There's no reason that they should not be incorporated into MMOs.
In fact, as I said before, in every MMO I've played (SWG, LoTRO, WoW, some EQ2), adventurers have just as much power over crafters, if not more, than the other way around.
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im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good