Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
The ratio of class based vs skill based...
Eronakis
Member UncommonPosts: 2,249
I am very curious to see how this is going to come out. At the moment, it seems alot of top games use a class base system. Too bad SOE had to mess up SWG, and I believe SWG would still be the top sandbox game. Anyways, I am very curious to see the ratio of how many people like a class based over a skill based system or vice versa.
I choose a class based system, if the class system is indepth. I choose this because, I enjoy group play more than solo play. I think a class based system is more efficient for group play than a skill based. Because you have the archetypes set in place. Each class can complement each other in the group and make it balanced. However, I do see the different strategies with a skill based and keeping the gameplay fun because you made your own "class". In my opinion, it would be rather frustrating to find a group, and have all DPS type of "classes" and wipe. If somehow the sandbox style can break the mold of not having the trinity of classes dependble on each other, that would make it interesting, however I have yet to see that accomplished correctly. I think a skill based system works well if the majority of the content is solo play.
If you post and vote, I ask, please tell WHY you choose that way and how it works well in group play. Maybe I haven't played enough sandbox styles to comprehend such a notion. Also, if you would, please also tell why a class system is horrible beside it allows you to have no freedom?
Comments
I'm going to have to say class based simply because it's more convenient. Some people argue that skill based allow for more costumization, but usually there is a system in place that somewhat forces you to specialize in a certain number of skills anyway. A good class system has every playstyle covered and is easy to balance when compared to a skill based system.
Saying "LF Paladin 4 man!" is more convenient than saying "LF Player with 20 healing, 30 armor, 30 shield block!"
Neither.
Rank/faction based system is my choice. Fight, organize, trade and support to gain rank within your faction. You get more options to lead and maybe you can use better items while ranking up but I never liked the idea of standard mmo's that you gain strength health etc based on levels.
I think it's funny how you refer to having multiple areas to level in "skill-based"
but anyway...classes are more convenient, but I perfer "skill-based" more.
It lets me mold my character into what I want it to be.
We should start using the terms class-based and style-based...because that's what it really is.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guys! I'm hopelessly lost in a mountain of mole hills! Them damn moles!
Very interesting, I don't think I have ever heard that before.
I opted for picking my own stuff and making my character exactly what I've always wanted it to be but never could because I was pigeonholed by the class system. I like the freedom to do whatever I chose and I expect the same of others. I have never asked anybody to make a specific build or spec a certain way and always found it more fun to work with what I got then having everything premade.
I'd suggest you go and give the "skill-based" system a better try but quite frankly all the "skill-based" games are all but dead and wouldn't prove much fun.
Edit: Of course with a "skill-based" system there will be those who copy what ever they feel is the strongest build or imitate the person who last outdid them somehow in the hopes of being stronger, better, or on top. And there will also be those people who found some combination of skills that they feel is superior to all others and will try and force whomever they party with to go that route. But I think there are good and bad sides to everything.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
I love skill base games as long as they are not the level based hidden in a Skill based game as above. Give me a skill based game with no more than 5-10 levels per ability
I love skill base games as long as they are not the level based hidden in a Skill based game as above. Give me a skill based game with no more than 5-10 levels per ability
Why do you like skill based over class based for group play?
It is impossible to balance a skill system with diversity. Just look at UO, everyone is a tank-mage.
Once a site like elitistjerk gets hold of all the game mechanics info, they will devise an optimal skill build and everyone will be using it.
Class system is much better because it promotes diversity.
You Fail
Class system means every tank is the same build, every cleric is the same build, every rogue is the same build, and worse, every character is easily identifiable by the gear they wear.
You may have people choosing similar builds in a skill system, but there will always be diversity and you never know what the other character will be using against you in a PvP match unlike a class system where you know exactly what their strengths and weaknesses are in advance.
You Fail
Class system means every tank is the same build, every cleric is the same build, every rogue is the same build, and worse, every character is easily identifiable by the gear they wear.
You may have people choosing similar builds in a skill system, but there will always be diversity and you never know what the other character will be using against you in a PvP match unlike a class system where you know exactly what their strengths and weaknesses are in advance.
Clearly you have never played Ragnarok Online.
I wrote this on another thread but it seems to fit here as well..
Let me ask this for those perferred standbox players...
Would it be reasonable to say there are four archetypes, you can choose, from, such as fighter, priest, theif and mage. Maybe, once you picked that skill set from that archetype there is a massive veriety of skills to choose from with penalties for choosing others over some. Maybe down the road, you can mix abilities from different trees, and if you decide not to, you can some kind of bonus for being that pure style. Or is this way still leaned towards a class system? (Pretty much, there are set skills for the archetype and different players will have different skills within that archetype so it's kind of sandboxed)
You Fail
Class system means every tank is the same build, every cleric is the same build, every rogue is the same build, and worse, every character is easily identifiable by the gear they wear.
You may have people choosing similar builds in a skill system, but there will always be diversity and you never know what the other character will be using against you in a PvP match unlike a class system where you know exactly what their strengths and weaknesses are in advance.
So when you see a guy wearing robes and a 2h sword you wont know what build he has...?
Class and Skill based have their pros and cons, I like both. I like Class because I dont have to really "think" what I want to do, it's all planned out. I like skill because of the diversity of things I can be, in class based systems theres not always your perfect class, but with skill based their is. Class based is easier to make, therefore more games have it. You can implement skill based systems under a Class based system, such as talent points, which isn't too great since everyone choose the same build as if it were a fully skill based system.
Currently restarting World of Warcraft
First: I Prefer skill-based.
Because: Your question about the four archetypes is the reason why i dont touch a class based game. For me its about making a charcter, not a class. And what if the priest looses his faith in a god? Does he become a fighter then? Or does it have to do what tools thay use?
I have never understood the class based system. Why not create a person?
You Fail
Class system means every tank is the same build, every cleric is the same build, every rogue is the same build, and worse, every character is easily identifiable by the gear they wear.
You may have people choosing similar builds in a skill system, but there will always be diversity and you never know what the other character will be using against you in a PvP match unlike a class system where you know exactly what their strengths and weaknesses are in advance.
Clearly you have never played Ragnarok Online.
Or City of Heroes, which has archetypes, but several differnt build for each archetype.
I agree with the original poster, classes are good for group play. Skills seem to lead towards solo play, which is not as fun IMO.
First: I Prefer skill-based.
Because: Your question about the four archetypes is the reason why i dont touch a class based game. For me its about making a charcter, not a class. And what if the priest looses his faith in a god? Does he become a fighter then? Or does it have to do what tools thay use?
I have never understood the class based system. Why not create a person?
Alright, but you will still have different attributes according to hat particular class style. The only difference is you choose what skills to have; which in turn is saying you have 1/3rd of a fighter, 1/3rd of a priest and 1/3rd of a thief, which really like somone says there are classes in a skill based, however they are not titled and you come up with a hybrid/jack of all trades type of '"class".
I must respectfully disagree with you on this point. So many times my friends and I wanted to go out and make our own characters and then play them together without having the "perfect" group make up because it's that much more interesting to me. When you read some of the books out there you don't always see some guy with a massive weapon, a healer behind him and a wizard to back him up and this is something my friends and I would like to recreate. Pick a medium armored character plus an archer and a thief and have an adventure. Sure without a healer it might be more difficult but I think in the end it's more fun... at least to me.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
I must respectfully disagree with you on this point. So many times my friends and I wanted to go out and make our own characters and then play them together without having the "perfect" group make up because it's that much more interesting to me. When you read some of the books out there you don't always see some guy with a massive weapon, a healer behind him and a wizard to back him up and this is something my friends and I would like to recreate. Pick a medium armored character plus an archer and a thief and have an adventure. Sure without a healer it might be more difficult but I think in the end it's more fun... at least to me.
Yeah I think that would be very interesting as well. However, with out the "trinity" concept, would you all be able to progress in the game? Thats the only thing I see setting it apart from a class based system. Because usually to progress I have been told you are kind of forced to go that certian "spec".
I chose skill based system as it is superior to a class based system in almost every singel way imaginable.
Firstly, it allows you to build your own character, get the skills you want, and be what you want. You have to plan out what you want to get, when you want to get it, and how it will play into your final character. In a class system, it is simply "Kill mobs until I ding, rinse, repeat".
Your concern about not haveing defined roles and making grouping harder isn't really justified. It's not like a skill based system doesn't have its "roles". If you are built to mostly do DPS, you are a dpser. If you are built to withstand damage, you are a tanker. Same with healing. The great thing about a skill system is that it allows you the freedom to be EXACTLY what you want to be. It can also make grouping a lot easier. Take SWG for instance. I was a Master Carbineer, Master Rifleman, Combat Medic 4XXX. I had the ability to do nasty ranged damage, along with heal myself fairly decently. But, if my group needed a healer, I could throw on my +Healing Efficiency clothes and heal for the group. Even though I wasn't specced for healing, and wasn't the greatest, I could usually get the job done.
That wasn't my first build, which was Master Rifles, Master Tera Kasi, with some Commando. I didn't really like that build, so I dropped it and rebuild myself the way I described before. You can't do that in a class based game. Once you level up, you are stuck with what you are.
I didn't know anyone else with the build I ran with, but I loved it and I played it well and I stuck with it right up to the day SOE ripped it from my character's cold dead fingers. Sure, there were fotm builds that some people ran with, but you will find that in EVERYGAME(Just look at WoW when Locks were OP, then Resto Druids, then Rogues. In every case there were TONS of people regrinding said OP classes). But there were also a lot of people with unique builds that they really enjoyed.
That is the kind of freedom, character immersion, and diversity that you will NEVER find in a class based game.
BTW, I think the problem is as much with classes as it is with levels.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I must respectfully disagree with you on this point. So many times my friends and I wanted to go out and make our own characters and then play them together without having the "perfect" group make up because it's that much more interesting to me. When you read some of the books out there you don't always see some guy with a massive weapon, a healer behind him and a wizard to back him up and this is something my friends and I would like to recreate. Pick a medium armored character plus an archer and a thief and have an adventure. Sure without a healer it might be more difficult but I think in the end it's more fun... at least to me.
The difference is in the satisfaction of coordination and organization, and that feeling that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
Let's say you have a group of three players, vs three mobs. In a skill based game, the advantage in grouping is just in numbers. It probably doesn't matter that much if you all gang up on one mob at a time, or you all fight a mob separately.
But in the class based system, the advantage is in coordinating and working as a team, not just because of the numbers. It's important that the healer watch the tanks hit points, it's important that the tank make sure the nuke doesn't get aggro. It's important that you concentrate on each other, not just the mobs you are fighting.
With the skill system, it's just every man for himself, which to me is not as intersting. Seems to me, you're actually making the OP's point. You don't want to coordinate, you just want to zerg.
I must respectfully disagree with you on this point. So many times my friends and I wanted to go out and make our own characters and then play them together without having the "perfect" group make up because it's that much more interesting to me. When you read some of the books out there you don't always see some guy with a massive weapon, a healer behind him and a wizard to back him up and this is something my friends and I would like to recreate. Pick a medium armored character plus an archer and a thief and have an adventure. Sure without a healer it might be more difficult but I think in the end it's more fun... at least to me.
The difference is in the satisfaction of coordination and organization, and that feeling that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
Let's say you have a group of three players, vs three mobs. In a skill based game, the advantage in grouping is just in numbers. It probably doesn't matter that much if you all gang up on one mob at a time, or you all fight a mob separately.
But in the class based system, the advantage is in coordinating and working as a team, not just because of the numbers. It's important that the healer watch the tanks hit points, it's important that the tank make sure the nuke doesn't get aggro. It's important that you concentrate on each other, not just the mobs you are fighting.
With the skill system, it's just every man for himself, which to me is not as intersting. Seems to me, you're actually making the OP's point. You don't want to coordinate, you just want to zerg.
That sounds more boring then zerging. In your scenario, you are confined to one role. The healer heals, the tank tanks, and the dps does damage. That doesn't sound fun at all, that just sounds boring. While with the other poster's scenario, say they must take out one of those 3 mobs first because they do the most damage and they won't survive long if it stays alive. Perhaps they will have to try and rotate who is taking damage from the mobs so that one person doesn't take it all and die. There is so many more possiblities in these games beyond the healer healing, the tank tanking, and the dps doing damage.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Well there are levels when you do increases your skills right? Just more complex I believe. What if a class based system had that to go off of, but serveral different ways to do stuff with out limiting, such as combo systems and other stuff I can't think of anymore lol. (Danm I'll post again when I remember what I was going to write).
All class based systems are not built the same.
The ability to create a fighter/wizard/thief or a barbarian/cleric (with various degrees of level difference between choices) allows for an amazing amount of flexibility
It is just as easy to pigeonhole skill based systems with the observation that such games usually produce 2 or 3 very specific builds, i.e. clones.
I'm very sick of classes and poor character creation freedom, which is my I'm not playing any MMO at the moment.
Anything that restricts the players creativity is a bad thing. If cryptic can pull of a classless game I will be very impressed. But I don't have my hopes up there.
Bethesda has the right idea, but they always skimp on total possible number of skill, not to mention their tendency for bugs.
So a classless game is great in theory but I don't see anyone pulling it off well that is.
The best bet would be cryptic as far as design skills, but when they sold CoX to ncsoft CoX got a lot better fast. So cryptic has some issues.
What I would really like to see is classes used for quest and roleplay purposes, not for skill selection. So a fighter would spent his time in the battlefield, a thief, in the city, and so on.
I chose class based. You see, Im an idiot and need to be told exactly how to play the game, what to
hunt and where to hunt it. I want a class so people know exactly what I can offer a group . If I had
to rely on skill and personality to get into a group I wouldnt stand a chance. I want to be told what
area is for my 'class lvl' with the help of a con. system, because i dont like the challange of finding them myself.
I must respectfully disagree with you on this point. So many times my friends and I wanted to go out and make our own characters and then play them together without having the "perfect" group make up because it's that much more interesting to me. When you read some of the books out there you don't always see some guy with a massive weapon, a healer behind him and a wizard to back him up and this is something my friends and I would like to recreate. Pick a medium armored character plus an archer and a thief and have an adventure. Sure without a healer it might be more difficult but I think in the end it's more fun... at least to me.
The difference is in the satisfaction of coordination and organization, and that feeling that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
Let's say you have a group of three players, vs three mobs. In a skill based game, the advantage in grouping is just in numbers. It probably doesn't matter that much if you all gang up on one mob at a time, or you all fight a mob separately.
But in the class based system, the advantage is in coordinating and working as a team, not just because of the numbers. It's important that the healer watch the tanks hit points, it's important that the tank make sure the nuke doesn't get aggro. It's important that you concentrate on each other, not just the mobs you are fighting.
With the skill system, it's just every man for himself, which to me is not as intersting. Seems to me, you're actually making the OP's point. You don't want to coordinate, you just want to zerg.
That sounds more boring then zerging. In your scenario, you are confined to one role. The healer heals, the tank tanks, and the dps does damage. That doesn't sound fun at all, that just sounds boring. While with the other poster's scenario, say they must take out one of those 3 mobs first because they do the most damage and they won't survive long if it stays alive. Perhaps they will have to try and rotate who is taking damage from the mobs so that one person doesn't take it all and die. There is so many more possiblities in these games beyond the healer healing, the tank tanking, and the dps doing damage.
I think Ihmotepp has a good point there. It's really just different clashes of perspectives. Again, I think people are sick of classes because they are one dimensional to that archetype. I think you can make a class system fun with out having every class play 2-every role in the game. Devs lack depth. I think AION with their combo system as the right direction for class based systems, however it's still not in depth IMO. I just think there needs to be way more stategies to play a class in different situations as well as different styles but still kept with the same theme.