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So which one was it?
Now that there are starting to be quite a few different Beta leaks I couldn't help but remember the debate that was had a month or so ago.
Why aren't we seeing hardly any Beta Leaks? Remember that coming up again and again.
One of the reasons put forth by quite a few on this forum was the extremely small amount of people in Beta and that those that were in Beta were close friends of Tasos and other devs. This was pointed out as being a detriment to the testing of DarkFall as a large number of testers was key to making sure everything was working as intended.
Another reason that was put forth by a number of other posters here on this forum was that the NDA was very strict and that all of those in Beta took it very seriously and were afraid to break it because of the consequences that would follow.
So here were are at the present time with a few things that I think everyone would agree with.
1) There are more people in Beta now
2) There are more leaks now
3) The NDA is still in effect
So... which one of the previous reasons for the lack of Beta leaks seems to be correct one now. 
Comments
Not saying Aventurine would do this, but if I was beta testing my game and saw many people in forums being suspicious about the lack of leaks and this harming the game image and that might worry the investors, I'd make sure some leaks happen.
Number of leaks is directly related to the number of testers. As a guild leader, I have made it my business to find every leak possible to have a better informed guild. That being said, I have noticed a definite increase in the leaking activity in the last week or two. On a daily basis we are seeing new videos, screen shots, first impressions, Q & As, patch notes, and ability lists.
I don't think anyone can honestly argue at this point that the beta is contained to their friends and family, or argue the game does not exist, unless they are somehow invested in the game failure and trolling. I wold imagine over the course of the next 3 weeks this trend will continue, and hopefully people who are on the fence will be able to get access to information to help them make a decision.
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I hate the beta leak videos. Not many seem to understand what they are seeing.
I agree.
Which is pretty much what some of us were saying back in Dec. when the lack of leaks was very obvious. I don't remember you being one of the vocal ones saying we were wrong, but there were some who quite vocally said we didn't have a clue what we were talking about. They maintained the reason there was a lack of leaks was because of the very strict NDA.
There were some very lengthy posts that went into detail of how Aventurine was going to track down every single NDA breaker and that no matter where you lived in the world that you'd be subject to Greek law and could face some serious jail time... blah... blah... blah. That was the reason there were no leaks... NOT the very small amount of testers involved.
To which, some of us said.... whatever.
Aventurine has 2 options to counter that.
1) Drop the NDA so everyone can judge it for themselves without relying on leaks.
2) Release their own official Beta videos.
Unfortunately for DarkFall's fans... the "unofficial" information is the main source of information; and in some cases the ONLY source.
2) Release their own official Beta videos.
That would be the best. Someone explaining whats happening on the screen. Most comments to videos are made by people not undertsaning a thing....and you read and just go "what?"
The original beta testers were PAID testers. They didn't leak information because it would have meant their company losing a contract, and them losing some pretty sweet testing jobs.
Now it's open to the public leaks are coming fast. It has something to say about the value of paid testers and the lack of value of semi-open beta NDA.
Asdar
I don't think many were arguing over whether the nda was the cause of the lack of leaks but rather that it would be possible for them Aventurine to successfully seek legal recourse if they had the will to take leakers to court.
I don't think many were arguing over whether the nda was the cause of the lack of leaks but rather that it would be possible for them Aventurine to successfully seek legal recourse if they had the will to take leakers to court.
Apparently quite a few are NOT afraid of that now.
As for those arguing that the NDA was the reason for the lack of leaks... heh. Yeah, wouldn't expect them to come and say they were wrong now.
Face it. The reason there weren't leaks before is the number of testers. The NDA has little to do with leaks. There are always leaks when there are the number of testers rises to a certain threshold. That number wasn't there before... now it is.
DarkFall's NDA is no more scary than any other MMOs NDA. It was just used as an excuse for the reason for the lack of leaks. Now we know the reason was just numbers, not the NDA. Once the numbers got high enough... the leaks started rolling in.
The NDA is still in place... yet now we have lots of leaks.
What has changed? Ahh... thats right.
The number of testers.
I doubt it ever was any real beta before the "public" one. It had to be a really pitiful one if it really existed. Maby they only used their famous "bots" to play the game?
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Aventurine has 2 options to counter that.
1) Drop the NDA so everyone can judge it for themselves without relying on leaks.
2) Release their own official Beta videos.
Unfortunately for DarkFall's fans... the "unofficial" information is the main source of information; and in some cases the ONLY source.
Yeah but let's face it the 17 min. video they released in '08 has little or nothing to do with the actual videos from actual persons that played the Beta and leaked their videos. So IMO the 2nd option is out because at this point it wouldn't add to any credibility they have.
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Er...wouldn't this be entirely up to Aventurine, who is the direct cause of the problem? Unlike you, I don't invest any time in beta leaks because the information is usually very sketchy, sometimes completely uncontrolled and its hard to get a feel for what the release is like.
Unlike an open beta such as LotRO, VG, WAR, and AOC had, where I did get a decent idea about the games. Though the limits in every case to a certain level hid flaws in the gameplay which led me to purchase the games, but quickly toss them aside once I got to the more advanced part of the games. (all part of the strategy I suppose, to separate me (the sucker) from my money.
I'll
Who the hell are you, and why should I care?
Congrats! You are a victim of Trollstar!
Aventurine has 2 options to counter that.
1) Drop the NDA so everyone can judge it for themselves without relying on leaks.
2) Release their own official Beta videos.
Unfortunately for DarkFall's fans... the "unofficial" information is the main source of information; and in some cases the ONLY source.
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Considering the number of major patches that have been released over the past week, I agree it speaks volumes about the effectivness of a small group of paid testers. Paid testers are a great starting point, but no game is sufficiently vetted without a massive beta test at some point. That is just the reality.
I believe that Aventurine realized this and pushed back the date so they could have a more complete beta test. They may push the date back again for the same reason.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
We'll see on the 25th...
Considering the number of major patches that have been released over the past week, I agree it speaks volumes about the effectivness of a small group of paid testers. Paid testers are a great starting point, but no game is sufficiently vetted without a massive beta test at some point. That is just the reality.
I believe that Aventurine realized this and pushed back the date so they could have a more complete beta test. They may push the date back again for the same reason.
I agree.
I think it's safe to say that the method of testing Aventurine was using starting back in Sept. (and everything previous to that) wasn't having the results that they wanted. Hence the change, and delay of the game.
Sometime in late Dec./ early Jan. they realized that to effectively test an MMO you need to dump a large amount of players into it. Viola... Beta testing began in earnest.
Suddenly we started hearing about needed to test this and that more. Then we heard about stuff not working like they had thought it would (sprinting/running for example). Basically all the stuff that happens when you actually let players into the game and let them find out what works and what doesn't.
A lot of things sound cool on paper. They may even work in a small group setting. However if those things don't work on a mass scale... they need to be changed or scrapped. That is what Beta testing is all about.
Even from "The Noob's" own screenshot showing the "popularity" of the idea of pre-ordering with the Beta testers it says they are still in Phase 1 of Beta Testing.
It's good they are finally Beta testing the game the way it should have been about a year ago... but at least they are making progress.
Disagree
they did not change their strategy, they lost just time because of things Tasos mentioned.
The game had never big bugs since public testers test it,( beta testers didn't report that , in contrary they reported beta stability as strong point)
That speaks for the good work on testing with the prof testers before...Their testing was effective and the small amount of bugs speaks for effectiveness of their testing philosophy..what they changed during Beta is putting in some changes cause of feedback ..but the original features were functionally ok and bugless ..for example the running works the sprinting works , all is fine..they just listen to feedback and try some changes to please the beta tester about running/sprinting.
The lengthy beta patchenotes proof that the game was ready with all the features ..they just had to transfair the features onto the live servers ..no one can develop the feature they enabled with patch 80 and 100 in 2 weeks ..
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The most amusing thing is that almost all the beta leaks have been really positive, contrary to the drivel posted by the numerous clueless trolls around here...
Why are they almost all positive? because the game is actually damn good. Not for everyone certainly, but for any sandbox or PVP fan, it is the best MMO of the decade. Big call? just wait and see.
Is English a second language for you Raiden?
Just wondering because you once again prove my contention that the most vocal sycophantic fawnbois write like they are using a translator from some foreign language.
Which leads me to believe that either A) you are a shill for Aventurine
You are quite young and don't understand proper grammer C) You failed grammer school English D) You really don't give a F how stupid your comments come off as.
Darth budy, You were doing so well after the last missed release date. You actually sounded reasonable for a change. It is a shame you have gone back to your old ways.
The game has had several large patches to address a number of major bug fixes. To claim otherwise is simply false. The public testers probably addressed some issues, but they cannot break a game like a mass of normal players.
If the game was ready for release there would not be so many patches. Since you have been reading them you see where they have addressed client crashes which has nothing to do with feedback.
Quit trying to spin this game again. You sounded human for a week and now back to the cheerleading squad. If the game is ready please explain why...
Shields are currently pointless.
Decapitation caused client crashes.
City building has not been fully tested.
35 players fighting is such a HUGE deal.
There are issues left to be addressed and anyone with a lick of interest knows it even if they try to ignore it. I think the Devs are doing the right thing here with the delays and more involved public beta. The game has potential... trying to argue any little criticism does not help the game, it only hurts your credibility.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
You know i have replayed to post claimed "Aventurine changed Beta Strategy" ?
You talk about bugs that not only occur while beta test but still can occur on live servers. My argument was that testers reported on the beta test stability as a strong point and just things not turned on what has been with latest builds..There isn't for me change in testing Philosophy. .
Delay yes but not change of philosophy although they listened to feedback and put minor things in.
Shields maybe pointless but they work ! Decapitation bug was because of bad transfer from their source repository to live servers, got fixed very fast. City Building works for the buildings Clans have the gold materials for to build yet, same goes for ships. After the materials was given to a tester he was able to craft ships no prob.
Dunno why the tester can't organize a proper 100+ vs 100+ battle. They soloing too much for my taste.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Considering the number of major patches that have been released over the past week, I agree it speaks volumes about the effectivness of a small group of paid testers. Paid testers are a great starting point, but no game is sufficiently vetted without a massive beta test at some point. That is just the reality.
I believe that Aventurine realized this and pushed back the date so they could have a more complete beta test. They may push the date back again for the same reason.
I agree.
I think it's safe to say that the method of testing Aventurine was using starting back in Sept. (and everything previous to that) wasn't having the results that they wanted. Hence the change, and delay of the game.
Sometime in late Dec./ early Jan. they realized that to effectively test an MMO you need to dump a large amount of players into it. Viola... Beta testing began in earnest.
Suddenly we started hearing about needed to test this and that more. Then we heard about stuff not working like they had thought it would (sprinting/running for example). Basically all the stuff that happens when you actually let players into the game and let them find out what works and what doesn't.
A lot of things sound cool on paper. They may even work in a small group setting. However if those things don't work on a mass scale... they need to be changed or scrapped. That is what Beta testing is all about.
Even from "The Noob's" own screenshot showing the "popularity" of the idea of pre-ordering with the Beta testers it says they are still in Phase 1 of Beta Testing.
It's good they are finally Beta testing the game the way it should have been about a year ago... but at least they are making progress.
Disagree
they did not change their strategy, they lost just time because of things Tasos mentioned.
The game had never big bugs since public testers test it,( beta testers didn't report that , in contrary they reported beta stability as strong point)
That speaks for the good work on testing with the prof testers before...Their testing was effective and the small amount of bugs speaks for effectiveness of their testing philosophy..what they changed during Beta is putting in some changes cause of feedback ..but the original features were functionally ok and bugless ..for example the running works the sprinting works , all is fine..they just listen to feedback and try some changes to please the beta tester about running/sprinting.
The lengthy beta patchenotes proof that the game was ready with all the features ..they just had to transfair the features onto the live servers ..no one can develop the feature they enabled with patch 80 and 100 in 2 weeks ..
Please point out in my thread where I claimed it had big bugs?
Umm... didn't I just say the same thing in my post... to which you said you disagreed?
As they have more people enter and turn more features on... we are starting to see more and more that needs work. THAT was the point some of us were trying to hammer home in November! Let thousands of people into the game and play it! Use their feedback to figure out what works and what doesn't.
It's not a really hard concept to grasp... it just took Aventurine longer to figure out than most MMOs. Hopefully they will keep the game in Development as long as it takes to make sure it is thoroughly tested.
Have the Beta testers done ship battles yet? How about Hover tank battles? How about Mounted combat? The siege and take over of clan cities?
There are still leaks coming in of them having entire dungeons, cities, and even whole regions un-populated of NPCs and mobs. Has the whole game even been completely turned on yet and everything running at the same time? How about with thousands of live players on and hundreds more logging in and out?
When they FINALLY get to that stage... then they can start congratulating themselves at how stable the game is.
When you leave whole areas un-populated and most features turned off with just a few testers playing... yeah it SHOULD run rock solid.
Now that more features are being turned on and a decent amount of people are playing... we're seeing more and more things pop up that didn't manifest themselves before. Huh... who would have guessed it might behave differently with more things turned on and more people logged in.
A leaked video post was just deleted about five minutes ago. The leaks keep coming, more or less.
Search on youtube for Darkfall Gameplay Leak - REAL VOICE/UI
That should do you fine.
Heh... thanks.
I know the leaks are easy to find now. THAT is the point.
More testers = More leaks
That's what we were saying a couple months ago. Some were saying they had plenty of testers... it was just the NDA that was keeping the leaks down. Apparently the new Beta testers are braver?
Since the NDA is still up something must have changed for there to be more leaks.
I'm going to go with more testers.
Heh... thanks.
I know the leaks are easy to find now. THAT is the point.
More testers = More leaks
That's what we were saying a couple months ago. Some were saying they had plenty of testers... it was just the NDA that was keeping the leaks down. Apparently the new Beta testers are braver?
Since the NDA is still up something must have changed for there to be more leaks.
I'm going to go with more testers.
I actually wished I hadn't see any of them... Where before I was more along a fence... after seeing them, I have give thumbs down.