I am not going as fanatical as some in this thread pushing the sandbox agenda. its been provem that you dont really need every sandbox element in order to make a successful game. that being said here is my list
1) Character Customization - people what to personalize thier character figuring out how to get the most out of thier character. Whether this is a Dual class system, skill tree system (wow) or an alternate advancement system (EQ/EQ2). people want to stand out from being "cleric 123930" . If you go with a class system give people options allow dual classing or maybe subjobs that could be picked up for other abilities. people like to be special.
2) things to do - now i know this seems easy but people like variety, worse things some of these games now have done is proclaim thier niche ... Warhammers "this is an RVR game" or eq2's "this is a PVE game". Offers things to do for everyone, don't just make a "PVP game" make a game where PVP is a part of it ... don't just make a "raid game" make a game where raiding is just one aspect of it.
3) group content and smart AI - yes group content is needed, grouping needs to be encourage people should want to group thats part of the genre the Multiplayer part. obviously we don't want those with real life issues not to play so yes we should have solo content as well lots of it but grouping should not be forgotten.
4) Combat - lets face it MANY play MMOs to be the knight in shining armor the evil sorcerer not old Ben the pumpkin picker. a good combat system is a must a deep complex system thats easy to pick up but very rewarding to master. For ME that system would be one that doesnt rely too much on autoattack, maybe something DAOCs where you had different attacks depending on your position, if your character blocked or parried and other factors.
5) crafting - now while many play to be the knight in shining armor and evil sorcerer ... many other play to be the donald trump of the fantasy world. Definately need a strong crafting system that is useful at the beginning and endgame one like combat where its easy to pick up but very rewarding if you can master it(yet very complex to master).
Hiya there, I am a big quester and very often a soloer because of that. I have found in every game that it is impossible to see many areas if you are alone because you choose to play that way, because there is no-one else to play with or for what ever other reason. I feel this is a very big mark against MMOs. I can't talk for other people but I feel if there is a way for areas to be adjusted to the person currently in them it would be a big help for enjoyment.
Secondly I feel every game should have areas that have a random quest giver. It is simply insanely boring having to kill mob after mob just to level. Every game is a time trap, if you want to trap people give them something interesting, fun, and constructive to do. It isn't fun trying to gather 100 wolf skins, it really isn't fun having to kill 2000 wolves just to get to level 3.
These are two ides that I believe will give a game far more variety and replayability during each level, in each area, throughout the whole game.
Regards,
Goeegoanna
p.s. I always play a healer so make sure you give them extra special love in your games. Don't make them too squishy
I have found in every game that it is impossible to see many areas if you are alone because you choose to play that way, because there is no-one else to play with or for what ever other reason. I feel this is a very big mark against MMOs.
thats your problem not the games. I have seen every zone of every game I played because I don't have this unhealthy obsession with playing solo. yes you might have to group with other players, i know its a scary thought but sometimes its a must .... get over it.
So let me ask a question of all the "skill based" fans......What makes skill based better??.....Arent games like EQ/WoW skill based also?? I mean I cant kill much with my warrior if my sword skill is 1, so I have to raise the skill too right??.....When skill based games like UO were around did people diligently work hard on raising their skills or did they immediately download programs like Razor where they could just set up the program and come back 8 hours later with maxed skills??.....What I saw in most skill based games was anything but skill but simply using bots, macros, sripts, whatever to do the leveling for them.......From what it sounds like players just want an easy route and dont want to work for anything....Theres a reason why companies dont bother with skill based games and thats because players would leave after a short time...... I guarantee any skill based game there would be players with max skills in one day.
You don't have a full understanding of what a good skill based system is and can be. Firstly, WoW is not a skill based system. WoW is a level/class system in which Blizzard tacked on another time sink with the weapon skill. Honestly, what is the actual point of the weapon skill in WoW besides frustration and a time waster? A skill based system which is simply nothing more than a level attached to a weapon is shallow and boring. Beyond WoW's weapon skill number, nothing about WoW is skill based. You have a specified class, you have specific skills that you get when you get to specific levels. Your progression is about as linear as you can get.
Now take SWG skill system. They had 32 professions, each with a Novice skill box, 16 skill boxes in a tree, and a master skill box. You needed the novice box in order to unlock the boxes in the tree, and you needed all of the tree boxes to get the master box.
Now, every profession required different experience types, and some professions required different experience type for different columns in the tree. Take Rifleman for instance. Using your rifle gave you rifle experience points, and any combat also gave you some general combat points. Now, with your rifleman experience points, you could buy any of the novice, master, or first 3 columns of the tree boxes. The forth column of the tree boxes required general combat experience.
Now each of these skill boxes cost not only XP to unlock them, but skill points also. Each character got 250 skill points to use, which meant you could master 2 professions and dabble in another, or dabble in many different professions.
So, to your original question, why is this infinitely better than any level/class based game? Simple. You have the choice and freedom to build your character EXACTLY the way you want to. Where in WoW you simply choose your class, grind xp, and get the skills the developers have decided you should get, in SWG I build my character form scratch. If I wanted to be a Master Rifleman, Master Tera Kasi, with a little Artisan, I could do that. If I wanted to be a Master Carbineer, Master Bounty Hunter with some entertainer skills, I could do that. Or I could be an Doctor, Chef, and Architect. You could be whatever you wanted. I personally was a Master Carbineer, Master Rifleman, 4XXX Combat medic. I could do great range damage with the ability to do ok healing. A little gear swapping and I could be a decent healer.
It's about being what you want to be, molding your character to your exact play style, and playing exactly what you like, not being confined by what the developers say you should like.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
So let me ask a question of all the "skill based" fans......What makes skill based better??.....Arent games like EQ/WoW skill based also?? I mean I cant kill much with my warrior if my sword skill is 1, so I have to raise the skill too right??.....When skill based games like UO were around did people diligently work hard on raising their skills or did they immediately download programs like Razor where they could just set up the program and come back 8 hours later with maxed skills??.....What I saw in most skill based games was anything but skill but simply using bots, macros, sripts, whatever to do the leveling for them.......From what it sounds like players just want an easy route and dont want to work for anything....Theres a reason why companies dont bother with skill based games and thats because players would leave after a short time...... I guarantee any skill based game there would be players with max skills in one day.
You don't have a full understanding of what a good skill based system is and can be. Firstly, WoW is not a skill based system. WoW is a level/class system in which Blizzard tacked on another time sink with the weapon skill. Honestly, what is the actual point of the weapon skill in WoW besides frustration and a time waster? A skill based system which is simply nothing more than a level attached to a weapon is shallow and boring. Beyond WoW's weapon skill number, nothing about WoW is skill based. You have a specified class, you have specific skills that you get when you get to specific levels. Your progression is about as linear as you can get.
Now take SWG skill system. They had 32 professions, each with a Novice skill box, 16 skill boxes in a tree, and a master skill box. You needed the novice box in order to unlock the boxes in the tree, and you needed all of the tree boxes to get the master box.
Now, every profession required different experience types, and some professions required different experience type for different columns in the tree. Take Rifleman for instance. Using your rifle gave you rifle experience points, and any combat also gave you some general combat points. Now, with your rifleman experience points, you could buy any of the novice, master, or first 3 columns of the tree boxes. The forth column of the tree boxes required general combat experience.
Now each of these skill boxes cost not only XP to unlock them, but skill points also. Each character got 250 skill points to use, which meant you could master 2 professions and dabble in another, or dabble in many different professions.
So, to your original question, why is this infinitely better than any level/class based game? Simple. You have the choice and freedom to build your character EXACTLY the way you want to. Where in WoW you simply choose your class, grind xp, and get the skills the developers have decided you should get, in SWG I build my character form scratch. If I wanted to be a Master Rifleman, Master Tera Kasi, with a little Artisan, I could do that. If I wanted to be a Master Carbineer, Master Bounty Hunter with some entertainer skills, I could do that. Or I could be an Doctor, Chef, and Architect. You could be whatever you wanted. I personally was a Master Carbineer, Master Rifleman, 4XXX Combat medic. I could do great range damage with the ability to do ok healing. A little gear swapping and I could be a decent healer.
It's about being what you want to be, molding your character to your exact play style, and playing exactly what you like, not being confined by what the developers say you should like.
Master Droid Engineer/Master Artisan/Master Merchant,harsh language would have killed a kreetle before my pistol could. I almost forgot my Master CH,Master Ranger and as much Teras Kasi as I could get character, I really loved being one of the few people around who could pop those awesome elite camps.
The game has to be fun to play. In my experience, that's the single most important feature of a game (Really!). As obvious as it may seem, devs seem to think huge lists of features are solid foundations to build on.
I cant hardly play level based games anymore. I like realism in my games. For example im walking down a forrest path, all of a sudden a cute little bunny walks out in front of me. I think to myself "Ahh a bit of rabbit stew would be nice right about now!" I then pull out my trusty bow and shoot it with an arrow.... WTF its coming after me and attacking! My friend happens to be coming down the path from the other direction and says to me "Dude thats a lvl 40 rabbit, yer lvl 5 what was you thinking?" I reply "WTH man its a F'in rabbit! Whats this lvl 40 bullhockey?"
Long story short levels dont apply well to wildlife. Give animals realistic behaviors, rabbits and deer are shy and run quickly from danger. Make them very wary and elusive targets. Stealth or patience the only way to kill them. And dont make them unrealisticly tough to kill. One or two well placed arrows or weapon strikes(if you happened to sneak up close enough or ambush one) In other words let deer be deer, not epic battle material. Save that for a ancient grizzly, elephant bull or tiger etc. A grizzly easily could wipe the floor with most any man unless yer bow hunting or a spell caster(even then you might die tho grizzly are tough bastards). So it might take 3 - 4 people to take one down.
But using this method you dont need levels. Just give animals and monsters etc reasonable behavior and difficulty that there natures dictate. Also speed, a deer can run 30 mph+ easy. Give enemies speed realistic with there body design. So if ya run across a grizzly in the woods, ya know ya cant outrun it. So you pray it isnt hungry and slowly back away from it(if you turn around and run from it it'll trigger its hunting instinct)
This leads me to my last point as to why i dislike levels. Every mmo with lvls you start out in the noob area, then you hit the lvl 1-20 area, 20-30 etc ad nauseum. It feels way to linear. Id rather the whole world be lvl 1 but with variously powerful beings inhabiting it.
I think that you need decent graphics, pvp, player driven economy, and make gear less important and skill more important.
P.S i think housing and mounts/vehicles are cool because they really add to the feeling of being in the game.
P.S.S i like the idea about not having level 40 bunnies. I think that it might be cool to not give any levels to animals so that a player would have to guess and say "i might be good ebough to kill that rabid wolf"
I have found in every game that it is impossible to see many areas if you are alone because you choose to play that way, because there is no-one else to play with or for what ever other reason. I feel this is a very big mark against MMOs.
thats your problem not the games. I have seen every zone of every game I played because I don't have this unhealthy obsession with playing solo. yes you might have to group with other players, i know its a scary thought but sometimes its a must .... get over it.
What are you talking about an unhealthy obsession with playing solo? That is such an inconsiderate, insular way to look at the situation. Firstly sometimes people like a little time to themselves , that's no big deal.
What the big problem is that for many people is that they have no choice but to play alone. Remember that not everyone is in the same country therefore, not in the same time zone. Not everyone speaks the same language so they may find it hard to obtain a party or function in one.
For my example I am Australian, we play Guild Wars in European servers, that's between +9 and +10 hours time difference. I often found areas devoid of anyone at particular times yet with 20 or 30 servers connected at others.
Often there were Spanish, German, Italian, French servers up. People would try to party together. There would be a multi-national party but sometimes the others could not speak any English.
So, my suggestion gives people something to do while they wait for others to arrive. Not everyone is still in school. Most people play to have fun with others but because of circumstances like work, geography and language we don't all have the luxury.
I choose to play healers because I love to heal groups. Sure the problem is mine because I have less fun but, the problem is no one's if the game has some decent activities for their players who have such circumstances.
Comments
I am not going as fanatical as some in this thread pushing the sandbox agenda. its been provem that you dont really need every sandbox element in order to make a successful game. that being said here is my list
1) Character Customization - people what to personalize thier character figuring out how to get the most out of thier character. Whether this is a Dual class system, skill tree system (wow) or an alternate advancement system (EQ/EQ2). people want to stand out from being "cleric 123930" . If you go with a class system give people options allow dual classing or maybe subjobs that could be picked up for other abilities. people like to be special.
2) things to do - now i know this seems easy but people like variety, worse things some of these games now have done is proclaim thier niche ... Warhammers "this is an RVR game" or eq2's "this is a PVE game". Offers things to do for everyone, don't just make a "PVP game" make a game where PVP is a part of it ... don't just make a "raid game" make a game where raiding is just one aspect of it.
3) group content and smart AI - yes group content is needed, grouping needs to be encourage people should want to group thats part of the genre the Multiplayer part. obviously we don't want those with real life issues not to play so yes we should have solo content as well lots of it but grouping should not be forgotten.
4) Combat - lets face it MANY play MMOs to be the knight in shining armor the evil sorcerer not old Ben the pumpkin picker. a good combat system is a must a deep complex system thats easy to pick up but very rewarding to master. For ME that system would be one that doesnt rely too much on autoattack, maybe something DAOCs where you had different attacks depending on your position, if your character blocked or parried and other factors.
5) crafting - now while many play to be the knight in shining armor and evil sorcerer ... many other play to be the donald trump of the fantasy world. Definately need a strong crafting system that is useful at the beginning and endgame one like combat where its easy to pick up but very rewarding if you can master it(yet very complex to master).
Hiya there, I am a big quester and very often a soloer because of that. I have found in every game that it is impossible to see many areas if you are alone because you choose to play that way, because there is no-one else to play with or for what ever other reason. I feel this is a very big mark against MMOs. I can't talk for other people but I feel if there is a way for areas to be adjusted to the person currently in them it would be a big help for enjoyment.
Secondly I feel every game should have areas that have a random quest giver. It is simply insanely boring having to kill mob after mob just to level. Every game is a time trap, if you want to trap people give them something interesting, fun, and constructive to do. It isn't fun trying to gather 100 wolf skins, it really isn't fun having to kill 2000 wolves just to get to level 3.
These are two ides that I believe will give a game far more variety and replayability during each level, in each area, throughout the whole game.
Regards,
Goeegoanna
p.s. I always play a healer so make sure you give them extra special love in your games. Don't make them too squishy
thats your problem not the games. I have seen every zone of every game I played because I don't have this unhealthy obsession with playing solo. yes you might have to group with other players, i know its a scary thought but sometimes its a must .... get over it.
make it where almost every item is player created or dropped by monsters. like what eve online did
You don't have a full understanding of what a good skill based system is and can be. Firstly, WoW is not a skill based system. WoW is a level/class system in which Blizzard tacked on another time sink with the weapon skill. Honestly, what is the actual point of the weapon skill in WoW besides frustration and a time waster? A skill based system which is simply nothing more than a level attached to a weapon is shallow and boring. Beyond WoW's weapon skill number, nothing about WoW is skill based. You have a specified class, you have specific skills that you get when you get to specific levels. Your progression is about as linear as you can get.
Now take SWG skill system. They had 32 professions, each with a Novice skill box, 16 skill boxes in a tree, and a master skill box. You needed the novice box in order to unlock the boxes in the tree, and you needed all of the tree boxes to get the master box.
Now, every profession required different experience types, and some professions required different experience type for different columns in the tree. Take Rifleman for instance. Using your rifle gave you rifle experience points, and any combat also gave you some general combat points. Now, with your rifleman experience points, you could buy any of the novice, master, or first 3 columns of the tree boxes. The forth column of the tree boxes required general combat experience.
Now each of these skill boxes cost not only XP to unlock them, but skill points also. Each character got 250 skill points to use, which meant you could master 2 professions and dabble in another, or dabble in many different professions.
So, to your original question, why is this infinitely better than any level/class based game? Simple. You have the choice and freedom to build your character EXACTLY the way you want to. Where in WoW you simply choose your class, grind xp, and get the skills the developers have decided you should get, in SWG I build my character form scratch. If I wanted to be a Master Rifleman, Master Tera Kasi, with a little Artisan, I could do that. If I wanted to be a Master Carbineer, Master Bounty Hunter with some entertainer skills, I could do that. Or I could be an Doctor, Chef, and Architect. You could be whatever you wanted. I personally was a Master Carbineer, Master Rifleman, 4XXX Combat medic. I could do great range damage with the ability to do ok healing. A little gear swapping and I could be a decent healer.
It's about being what you want to be, molding your character to your exact play style, and playing exactly what you like, not being confined by what the developers say you should like.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
You don't have a full understanding of what a good skill based system is and can be. Firstly, WoW is not a skill based system. WoW is a level/class system in which Blizzard tacked on another time sink with the weapon skill. Honestly, what is the actual point of the weapon skill in WoW besides frustration and a time waster? A skill based system which is simply nothing more than a level attached to a weapon is shallow and boring. Beyond WoW's weapon skill number, nothing about WoW is skill based. You have a specified class, you have specific skills that you get when you get to specific levels. Your progression is about as linear as you can get.
Now take SWG skill system. They had 32 professions, each with a Novice skill box, 16 skill boxes in a tree, and a master skill box. You needed the novice box in order to unlock the boxes in the tree, and you needed all of the tree boxes to get the master box.
Now, every profession required different experience types, and some professions required different experience type for different columns in the tree. Take Rifleman for instance. Using your rifle gave you rifle experience points, and any combat also gave you some general combat points. Now, with your rifleman experience points, you could buy any of the novice, master, or first 3 columns of the tree boxes. The forth column of the tree boxes required general combat experience.
Now each of these skill boxes cost not only XP to unlock them, but skill points also. Each character got 250 skill points to use, which meant you could master 2 professions and dabble in another, or dabble in many different professions.
So, to your original question, why is this infinitely better than any level/class based game? Simple. You have the choice and freedom to build your character EXACTLY the way you want to. Where in WoW you simply choose your class, grind xp, and get the skills the developers have decided you should get, in SWG I build my character form scratch. If I wanted to be a Master Rifleman, Master Tera Kasi, with a little Artisan, I could do that. If I wanted to be a Master Carbineer, Master Bounty Hunter with some entertainer skills, I could do that. Or I could be an Doctor, Chef, and Architect. You could be whatever you wanted. I personally was a Master Carbineer, Master Rifleman, 4XXX Combat medic. I could do great range damage with the ability to do ok healing. A little gear swapping and I could be a decent healer.
It's about being what you want to be, molding your character to your exact play style, and playing exactly what you like, not being confined by what the developers say you should like.
Master Droid Engineer/Master Artisan/Master Merchant,harsh language would have killed a kreetle before my pistol could.
I almost forgot my Master CH,Master Ranger and as much Teras Kasi as I could get character, I really loved being one of the few people around who could pop those awesome elite camps.
The game has to be fun to play. In my experience, that's the single most important feature of a game (Really!). As obvious as it may seem, devs seem to think huge lists of features are solid foundations to build on.
I cant hardly play level based games anymore. I like realism in my games. For example im walking down a forrest path, all of a sudden a cute little bunny walks out in front of me. I think to myself "Ahh a bit of rabbit stew would be nice right about now!" I then pull out my trusty bow and shoot it with an arrow.... WTF its coming after me and attacking! My friend happens to be coming down the path from the other direction and says to me "Dude thats a lvl 40 rabbit, yer lvl 5 what was you thinking?" I reply "WTH man its a F'in rabbit! Whats this lvl 40 bullhockey?"
Long story short levels dont apply well to wildlife. Give animals realistic behaviors, rabbits and deer are shy and run quickly from danger. Make them very wary and elusive targets. Stealth or patience the only way to kill them. And dont make them unrealisticly tough to kill. One or two well placed arrows or weapon strikes(if you happened to sneak up close enough or ambush one) In other words let deer be deer, not epic battle material. Save that for a ancient grizzly, elephant bull or tiger etc. A grizzly easily could wipe the floor with most any man unless yer bow hunting or a spell caster(even then you might die tho grizzly are tough bastards). So it might take 3 - 4 people to take one down.
But using this method you dont need levels. Just give animals and monsters etc reasonable behavior and difficulty that there natures dictate. Also speed, a deer can run 30 mph+ easy. Give enemies speed realistic with there body design. So if ya run across a grizzly in the woods, ya know ya cant outrun it. So you pray it isnt hungry and slowly back away from it(if you turn around and run from it it'll trigger its hunting instinct)
This leads me to my last point as to why i dislike levels. Every mmo with lvls you start out in the noob area, then you hit the lvl 1-20 area, 20-30 etc ad nauseum. It feels way to linear. Id rather the whole world be lvl 1 but with variously powerful beings inhabiting it.
Peace
I think that you need decent graphics, pvp, player driven economy, and make gear less important and skill more important.
P.S i think housing and mounts/vehicles are cool because they really add to the feeling of being in the game.
P.S.S i like the idea about not having level 40 bunnies. I think that it might be cool to not give any levels to animals so that a player would have to guess and say "i might be good ebough to kill that rabid wolf"
thats your problem not the games. I have seen every zone of every game I played because I don't have this unhealthy obsession with playing solo. yes you might have to group with other players, i know its a scary thought but sometimes its a must .... get over it.
What are you talking about an unhealthy obsession with playing solo? That is such an inconsiderate, insular way to look at the situation. Firstly sometimes people like a little time to themselves , that's no big deal.
What the big problem is that for many people is that they have no choice but to play alone. Remember that not everyone is in the same country therefore, not in the same time zone. Not everyone speaks the same language so they may find it hard to obtain a party or function in one.
For my example I am Australian, we play Guild Wars in European servers, that's between +9 and +10 hours time difference. I often found areas devoid of anyone at particular times yet with 20 or 30 servers connected at others.
Often there were Spanish, German, Italian, French servers up. People would try to party together. There would be a multi-national party but sometimes the others could not speak any English.
So, my suggestion gives people something to do while they wait for others to arrive. Not everyone is still in school. Most people play to have fun with others but because of circumstances like work, geography and language we don't all have the luxury.
I choose to play healers because I love to heal groups. Sure the problem is mine because I have less fun but, the problem is no one's if the game has some decent activities for their players who have such circumstances.