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Grinding and "Leveling"
Eronakis
Member UncommonPosts: 2,249
I shall ask the public. Is "leveling" grinding? I mean, leveling as in anything such as leveling your character or skills. My friend suggests that if you do a veriety of things it's not grinding.
Grinding means you do something very reptitive for those who don't know. I will reply depending on posts.
Comments
they are not mutually exclusive nor inclusive you can have one without the other. You can also have both, it depends on the game.
Grinding has two meanings. One, anything you do over and over. Two, anything you do over and over that is boring and a pain in the ass.
Depends on which of those definitions you are using.
For example, people say some games have "quest grinding". That means you do quests to gain XP, and that's how you gain the majority of XP, doing quests over and over. Some people think that's great fun, some people think it's a pain in the ass, either way it's "grinding" quests, because it's repetitive.
Try playing Minions of Mirth. It's free. It uses "skills" not "levels". you swing your sword, you go up in sword skill. You swing your axe, you go up in axe skill. You think it feels any different that playing a level based game, and waiting for a ding! in level? It doesn't. The "grind" is the same.
The grind is the same, it doesn't matter if you're playing a themepark or sandbox type of genre game.
Grinding is doing something for the sake of leveling that you wouldn't seriously consider doing if it didn't level you. Leveling that occurs in the background while you do whatever you are inclined to do without regard to whether it will level you is not grinding.
Puzzle Pirates is a clear example of leveling without grinding. There are things that you can level up in, but they don't make you stronger, so people don't do things for the sake of leveling.
Grinding doesn't necessarily entail doing something repetitive. The level system in A Tale in the Desert is an example of this. You do all sorts of different things to level, but most of them are completely stupid (e.g., build a cheap and tiny obelisk and then tear it down), which makes its level system quite grindy.
If you don't like grinding, why even bother with playing MMORPGs? -_-
Minions of Mirth has levels as well as skill raising so i dont think this game represents a skill based game very well.
Peace
My own PERSONAL definition of "grinding," is when I am forced to do something repeatedly that I do not enjoy and that is exactly the same. I don't consider questing to be grinding, but then I READ the quests in all the games I play and follow the lore and the stories. To ME, that is a FUN part of MMORPGs.
I would consider something to be grinding when, like another poster said, it's something I would not even consider doing for fun, but I am forced to do it to attain something, either a level, an item, etc. For instance....to use a game everyone knows and either loves or hates....in WoW, the questing is not grinding to me. The reputation grinds after level 80 are much LESS grindy NOW than they used to be because I can wear the tabard of the faction I want to "champion" while running instances (which is something I enjoy) to obtain rep. Prior to WotLK I would have DEFINITELY called raising rep for ANY faction....grinding. I don't find it "fun" to have to farm rings, plants, marks, or the like, off of mobs JUST to raise my reputation with a certain faction. For me that is repetitive and boring and has no MEANING in the game world. It takes away from immersion and frankly just pisses me off.
That being said, WoW is not the only game I play, nor is it anywhere NEAR the first MMO I've played. I find SOMETHING in all of the MMOs I have played to BE "a grind." But leveling in and of itself? No. If I'm doing things I enjoy doing to level...it's not a grind. Killing the exact same mobs over and over and over with no purpose other than to level? THAT is a grind.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Again, depends on the definition of "grinding". I always use it to refer to doing something that I don't enjoy doing in order to advance my character in some way, not just any repetitive action. Some repetitive actions can be fun. Take bowling for example. It's exactly the effing same every time you roll the ball, yet somehow it remains fun (for those who enjoy it, not me).
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im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
There are a lot of games that I won't play for precisely that reason. Games like Puzzle Pirates, Guild Wars, and Wizard101 entail minimal grinding, which is why I play that sort of games.
I don't mind it at all. I think that we will never get rid of a grind. It will always be there. I remember seeing somewhere that someone said that you only grind in themepark games and you never grind in sandbox games. But I disagree with that.
I think if your main goal is to level and everything (or most) things you do in the game are for the sake of leveling.....then yes leveling is grinding.
I tend to play games for the content and social aspect. Levels just come with that.
https://www.youtube.com/user/NemsGaming
I agree with that as well.
The way I see it Grinding = Sword of the new world style game play, Quests that give very tinny portions of exp often less than 2% of your total, about 2-3 quests per level and they are all kill 25-250-600 of X or Y mob. The rest of the time you are running around a massive Area most likely AoE 20 mobs at a time and spend about 30 hours to get one level after the level 100/120 Mark. Nothing but killing mobs very little to no qeusts and even less variety in other game activities like Crafting or events. THAT is grind. No short term rewards for your work just Start--------------Finish game play.
Leveling- Guild wars has leveling, quests and storyline that really is a storyline follows events and adds cinematics. short term rewards for each bit of story you clear, Unlock new areas, get a weapon a skill or an item.
WoW is not grind WoW is leveling to me, Quests everywhere questing gives more than 60% of your total exp, at least half of the quests are travel talk to NPC or escort quests, they are not all Kill X number of Y mobs. Crafting PvP at almost all levels, lots of in game events. This is not grinding this is questing.
These are all my opinions, and how I see the differances in them, Sword of the new world is a PERFECT example of what a 95% pure GRIND game is all about, Zero innovation in the quests very little story and what is there is basically broken, zero to little character customization, and very little optional activities or events to do outside of grinding.
A grind game does not have to suck though, FFXI gives you a MILLION things to do outside of gorup grinding, Sure the majority of the leveling is done group grinding but the majority of your time spend in game WONT be. There are a TON of quests you can do quests that you can do at level 40 that will have benefits for you up to level 75 and beyond, Teleport quests, for example, Supply quests, stuff that you do at low and mid levels and you are thankfull you did at high levels because it made your life easier, A TON of gear can be hunted or quested individually tons of Crafting you can do as well as tons of different events solo and group you can take part in garrioson, besigued, Champagin battle, BCNM. WSNM, Dynamis, Sky, tons of stuff to do the game leveling is a grind, but its sorrounded by variety, even has a epic storyline for each expansion with cinematics, to me that is GRIND game done RIGHT.
Well, I'm going to put forth a definition of grinding, one which will be very close to that others have used here. Grinding is an action you wouldn't otherwise do which you are performing simply to advance your character. This usually involves repetition and monotony.
This definition alone makes grind a subjective term. If you are someone who likes bite-sized pieces of lore presented to you and going through long quest chains to see how they turn out, then WoW's leveling system will not feel like a grind. On the other hand, if you are somebody who views questing as tedious, WoW's leveling system will feel no different to you than merely grinding out mobs for XP.
Of course, there are also some games which don't feature robust quest content but have combat which is interesting and varied enough to feel enjoyable over the longterm to its fans. I got two characters to lvl 50 in CoH before they lowered the XP required. It never felt like a grind to me, but to some, getting to level 50 was a painful experience.
The bottom line? It's ultimately subjective. No game aims to feel boring to its players. Every game has some fans who never feel like they're grinding, and others who really hate what they consider "grindy" aspects of the game. Therein lies the cause of grind. Every game has mechanics used to prolong playtime which most players actually enjoy. Your classic level system is a good example of this. However, you will inevitably end up with some players who severely dislike these advancement mechanics but play the game to experience specific other aspects they do like. Hence they perceive it as a grind which is forced upon them in order for them to experience what they want to.
This makes avoiding a player perception of grind very tricky. One way is to have a derth of quality content which people will actually go through for the sake of enjoyment, and to additionally give people all the required "experience" (or whatever arbitrary advancement mechanic you've chosen) through the course of doing this content. Another way is to make the gameplay so compelling that people enjoy it for the sake of itself and don't notice the repetition.
For me, grinding is doing an activity I don't enjoy simply for the reward the game offers me at the end. This need not be "advancement" per se. It could be direct access to content. For example, I might grind through the early parts of a quest chain in order to get to the last, interesting part of the quest chain. Or it could be a social/appearence reward. For example, collecting a resource in order to make a new set of statless clothing to change my character's appearance.
To the extent that levels act as a gate to new, interesting content, and that the content available early on is not interesting (either inherently or because I've already seen it with another character) then leveling up can be a grind for me.
I like how Vanguard does it. It takes 2-3 alts to fully see and use the whole world of Telon.
The way I see it, is that if a person is mainly concerned with "leveling" in the least amount of time, then most all things will be considered "grinding".
For me, I really can't say i consider anything to be a "grind". I just play the game, and most all things come eventually. About the only thing I would consider to be "grinding" would be Traits/Deeds. But that is only if you are in a hurry to get it done. Otherwise, playing the game will usually get you there in time.
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And this perfectly illustrates why the first people who "rushed to endgame" in both WoW, EQ2 (hahaha to RUSHING to endgame in THAT one...good luck), AoC, Warhammer, and every other game under the sun, are always the ones bitching that "the game has no content" and it's a GRIND. Well, WTF...dumba**...try taking ADVANTAGE of the content. THEY turned it IN to a "grind." These are the people that don't participate in server wide events, they don't READ quests, they don't involve themselves in the story, they don't craft items for themselves, friends, and to sell....they just RUSH TO THE "END" and then complain that they got to the end too fast.
Like what you posted above....I just PLAY THE GAME. Levels come in time when you're just taking your time and "stopping to smell the roses," so to speak. I play MMORPGs for the story, the exploration, the crafting, the social aspects, etc. New "shinies" (armor, weapons, and the like) all come in time as you go. Actually....this works in sandbox games too, not just linear quest and level-based games. I'm not sure why the players that power level even BOTHER with MMOs at all. They obviously would be better suited, personality-wise, to single player rpgs, FPS, or some other genre.
That's my "other" 2 cents on the subject.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
They're definately NOT mutually exclusive. I was grinding when I played EQ, DAOC, AO, L2 and the later stages of WAR. I was leveling the whole time when I played WOW and E&B. The reasons are world design and the overall pain in the assery of how you acheive those levels. In the grinding games the process of leveling up was extremely repetitive and/or tedious, lacking in any adventure or variety. You had one way to advance and that was it. In the leveling games, leveling just happened while playing. I wasn't paying attention to the numbers nor did I have to. The world was interesting enough.
If its fun, its not a grind and YES, its subjective. Those that normally complain about ALL MMOs being grinds are ussually those more concerned with the process of making numbers go up. To me, you'll NEVER have fun in these games if numbers are all that matter.
Heh, E&B. That was a game that had a ton of potential, and was actually quite fun.
Sorry for being
.
Resume the regular programming.
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I belive that when it comes to MMOs its a grind if thats the way you see it. Some games require you to do quest afther quest afther quest. Some people say they dont like it but others say they do so to the ones that enjoy it is it a grind to them? The same thing goes for games that force you to kill mob afther mob to level. Is it a grind to people that like doing these things?
If the game is realy fun you shouldn't realy notice the grinding.
Anyone "grinding" is not playing a game they have fun with, but playing a game they feel compelled to advance in.
It says more about the player than it does the game.
Grinding simply means having to go out each day and kill a very large amount of mobs in order to gain leveling experience , similar to the concept " daily grind "
Generally applied to games that offer little or no questing exp .
Leveling can be done without "grinding " depending on the game.
Grind = repetitive killing for exp .
Not any more, in the old days it did. Now it is anything that the player findd repetitive and boring. Could be quest grinding, pvp grinding, crating grinding, anything, not just pve killing.