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Are our expections so high that any new MMO is doom to cricticism?
noblot
Member Posts: 287
After reading a lot of post sabout WAR, it occurred to me that much of the comparision of new MMOs is in relations to MMOs that have had years to develope and improve,
Unlike other computer games, MMOs grow and evolve over time, generally improving quite substantly (and content increasing vastly). So are we making unfair criticisms of the new boys on the blocks?
Comments
No. I critique new MMOs to the standards of what MMOs contained feature wise 5 years ago. It's pretty sad when MMOs 5 years ago had more depth and features then new MMOs now.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
of course we are, anyone who says otherwise is ignorant.
it wont stop though, its just going to keep going on and on.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
I evaluate all MMOs , New, Old or somewhere in between straightup with no comparisons to anything other than the content within. If I like it, it's because of the game play of that MMO, period.
If one person wants for a game to have feature X, and another person wants for a game not to have feature X, a single game isn't going to make both happy.
I say "otherwise" and I'm anything but "ignorant".....
I don't know much about you other than your statement above which has revealed YOUR ignorance...
No. I critique new MMOs to the standards of what MMOs contained feature wise 5 years ago. It's pretty sad when MMOs 5 years ago had more depth and features then new MMOs now.
Actually, the average MMO 5 years ago did not have more depth than the average MMO does today. If anything they are about the same. And, surprisingly enough, the few MMOs that had an unusually high amount of depth (ie EQII) didn't do so well either.
I think the 3rd poster got it right. Our expectations are too high, and will only continue to get higher. It's happening across the board for games though, it's not just with MMOs. We will always want games to be bigger, more complex, prittier, more action packed, more fun than those that came before it. It's not human nature to rationalize how we feel about anything (games included). As such we will generally never stop to consider that the plateau has already been reached, and while we can trick ourselves into thinkign 'this one's different' it'll be a little while before we can truly see a 'new' type of game.
MMOs, unlike other forms of gaming, not only have the ability to, but must be allowed to evolve over time. Being that they are, by far, the most complex form of games (to create), it is nearly impossible to release a 'completed' MMO. The trick is to release a basic framework that is enjoyable enough for it's players, that it can survive long enough to mature.
This is much easier said than done, and is the reason most MMOs (new ones especially) seem to be heavily criticized / doomed to failure. If you don't get lucky, and release your MMO at the right time, you won't get many second chances to 'fix' it.
In a word, YES.
The reason for this is very very simple and underestimated. Most MMO players live in a fantasy world and want to play in one too. $ rules the MMO market, always has, always will, not the players. Lips service is reality. (and not the good kind either...*sigh*)
[edit] Oh, and anyone not believing that a new MMO will be criticized heavily has not visited ANY of the current "in production" MMO forums....especially any Beta forums... FACT ... LOL [/edit]
I don't think so. It's true that most people compare games to others that have had much longer to develop but there's something else to take into consideration there. Games use ideas from other games. Most games coming out now have features that took those games that had time to develop years to implement. That's because these new games don't have to come up with the idea and figure out a good way to implement it. New games SHOULD have a lot of the features that it took other games years to create because they can learn from their predecessors. Putting that aside, I generally try not to compare games to the point that if a brand new game isn't already as polished as a game that's been released for years that I'd consider it to be a failure or waste of time. If I find a game that I think has a lot of potential but isn't necessarily the best at the moment, I'll still give it a shot and enjoy the features it has for the time being, hoping that it will develop into what I know it can become. People need to realize that a game at launch is far from complete. Usually it takes a game a year or two to reach a certain level of greatness. Unfortunately a lot of games succeed after a few years and then try to please everyone and end up making the game far worse.
No. I critique new MMOs to the standards of what MMOs contained feature wise 5 years ago. It's pretty sad when MMOs 5 years ago had more depth and features then new MMOs now.
I agree. I feel that what people are expecting or asking for in new MMO's isn't too much. Although your question has it's merrit, the reality of it is that most MMO's are too similar, and don't do anything new. AoC I had 'a lot' of fun with, and I felt that it did indeed try to break out of the traditional MMO gameplay, although unfortunately I also felt it was incomplete. Zones, guild cities, tradeskills, huge lag spikes in certain zones, graphical issues, and more had too many problems, or thing's missing, that should have been fixed/in for release... Also I didn't like the instancing =/.
Back to the original question, and quoting Abrahamm, each MMO should out-do the last one, ideally atleast. All other genre's do it. Right now the shooter genre is in the spotlight, and it seems like every couple months a new one comes out with blows the last one out of the water. Why can't we have games like Killzone 2, for MMOs. A game that is outstanding in all categories, because the effort was put into it. All MMO's seem to either be just like the other one's we've played but 'different', some new features here, but missing some other features; be great and revolutionizing in acouple area's, but then the rest be kinda tacked on, or sometimes, even be worse then the one's already out.
Obviously expectation's are raised, and sometimes we over-hype ourselves, but that's not unique to MMOs. The difference is that in other genre's we actually get something some unique, original ideas, and if not then atleast it look and plays better then it's predecessor. Honestly though, you can't blame MMO studios for their work. Thanks to WoW the MMO gaming population is ridiculous, and since they are businesses they want to profit off of it. This means staying with what's been tried and tested to work. We've seen other games like Tabula Rasa, which I never got to play but personally thought it looked epic, which do try something new, and from what I last heard (haven't been following the news for MMO's too much in general, nvm TR specifically) they are letting people make free account's something soon, or it already happened.
MMO's need subscriptions to make a profit, unlike other games that rely simply on the number of games sold off the shelf, so they wan't to make sure that they can sell their game and keep their customers.
TLDR;MMO studio's arn't pushing the bar to make new MMO's truely better. As it stands each MMO is essentially the same, just some focus different aspects then others. example, AoC=combat, WAR=PVP.
They do this because MMO's are high-risk, and especially being in a recession, a lot of companies can't afford it.
I think whats important is that people have an open mind.
So long there enough population for you to enjoy the game and that you do enjoy the game you play then nothing else really matters.
Personal preference shouldn't be confused or bundled in with the "follow the sheep mentality" because it is individual afterall, so long it fits in with your own needs and if those needs are satisfied.
In essence that personal preference and individual taste leads back around, sometimes in a vicious circle hence the criticism postings we see
Then again it depends if that personal preference comes about by being spoilt by playing games that have plenty of development time.
For me I like to fasten the seat belt and enjoy the ride through the thick and thin of it all!
No. I critique new MMOs to the standards of what MMOs contained feature wise 5 years ago. It's pretty sad when MMOs 5 years ago had more depth and features then new MMOs now.
Actually, the average MMO 5 years ago did not have more depth than the average MMO does today. If anything they are about the same. And, surprisingly enough, the few MMOs that had an unusually high amount of depth (ie EQII) didn't do so well either.
Really? Name me these games. I haven't seen a game with depth come out since 2004.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
No. I critique new MMOs to the standards of what MMOs contained feature wise 5 years ago. It's pretty sad when MMOs 5 years ago had more depth and features then new MMOs now.
Actually, the average MMO 5 years ago did not have more depth than the average MMO does today. If anything they are about the same. And, surprisingly enough, the few MMOs that had an unusually high amount of depth (ie EQII) didn't do so well either.
Really? Name me these games. I haven't seen a game with depth come out since 2004.
An example was listed in my original post. Here, let me color it for you. Also as stated in my original post, there are few MMOs that do have a high lvl of depth. Keep in mind this is refering to the MMO genre, if you are comparing them to say, single player RPGs, that's an entirely different discussion.
While what constitutes as 'a high level of depth' is primarily subjective, I think it would be hard to argue that my original example would be of an MMO that isn't one of the few MMOs with a high lvl of depth. While I think it was developed slightly out of the 5-year period (1-2 years before, don't remember the exact launch date), I still think it applies to this context.
No. I critique new MMOs to the standards of what MMOs contained feature wise 5 years ago. It's pretty sad when MMOs 5 years ago had more depth and features then new MMOs now.
Actually, the average MMO 5 years ago did not have more depth than the average MMO does today. If anything they are about the same. And, surprisingly enough, the few MMOs that had an unusually high amount of depth (ie EQII) didn't do so well either.
Really? Name me these games. I haven't seen a game with depth come out since 2004.
An example was listed in my original post. Here, let me color it for you. Also as stated in my original post, there are few MMOs that do have a high lvl of depth. Keep in mind this is refering to the MMO genre, if you are comparing them to say, single player RPGs, that's an entirely different discussion.
While what constitutes as 'a high level of depth' is primarily subjective, I think it would be hard to argue that my original example would be of an MMO that isn't one of the few MMOs with a high lvl of depth. While I think it was developed slightly out of the 5-year period (1-2 years before, don't remember the exact launch date), I still think it applies to this context.
Everquest II came out in 2004. Nearly 5 years ago. Like I said, nothing with the features, depth, complexity and freedom of the original MMOs has come out since 2004.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
No. I critique new MMOs to the standards of what MMOs contained feature wise 5 years ago. It's pretty sad when MMOs 5 years ago had more depth and features then new MMOs now.
Actually, the average MMO 5 years ago did not have more depth than the average MMO does today. If anything they are about the same. And, surprisingly enough, the few MMOs that had an unusually high amount of depth (ie EQII) didn't do so well either.
Really? Name me these games. I haven't seen a game with depth come out since 2004.
An example was listed in my original post. Here, let me color it for you. Also as stated in my original post, there are few MMOs that do have a high lvl of depth. Keep in mind this is refering to the MMO genre, if you are comparing them to say, single player RPGs, that's an entirely different discussion.
While what constitutes as 'a high level of depth' is primarily subjective, I think it would be hard to argue that my original example would be of an MMO that isn't one of the few MMOs with a high lvl of depth. While I think it was developed slightly out of the 5-year period (1-2 years before, don't remember the exact launch date), I still think it applies to this context.
Everquest II came out in 2004. Nearly 5 years ago. Like I said, nothing with the features, depth, complexity and freedom of the original MMOs has come out since 2004.
I agree
Some players are mainly interested in novelty. A new game releases, they go play it a while, the novelty wears off, they quit and go complain about the game. Rinse and repeat with the next new release. That a game can't retain the novelty factor forever shouldn't be surprising.
If you want the polish of a game that has been out for a while, then play a game that has been out for a while. Don't play games when they first released, as they won't be terribly polished. How bad the initial problems are can vary considerably from one game to the next, but most games are quite a bit more polished six months after release than the day they release.
I think the answer to the question in the title of your post is not that individuals expectations are so high but rather that everyone has a different set of expectations and they all read into a games hype what they want to hear....not what is necessarily actually being said. Because everyone wants/expects something different out of every game...there will always be a subset of the population that while critisize, whine, complain and moan. There will always be another group that will make post after post to get devs to completely transform every game into thier fantasy of what a game will be. There will also always be that group that can see no wrong in a game being developed and wiill defend the game no matter what.
Then there are the rest of us that patiently wait, take a game as it is and judge whether we will be happy playing it and spending whatever money the devs require of us to play it.
I think part of it is too high expectations, but also its the number of games that have been rushed to market in a broken state or with incomplete/missing content. It might also help the whole mmo industry to focus more on basic game play at launch.
Nearly every MMO I have waited for to be released has been overly-hyped by the communities supporting the game, through no fault of the communities it is something that happens over time, talking up certain high lighted areas of the game lead to rose tinted visions of the game to be, but not what the game really is.
Expectations are usually very high early on in the conception of most MMO's because the ppl looking are those that are usually already bored with everything else that is on offer, any idea that looks to be new is usually heralded as the next best thing but usually turns out to be something that has been done before and usually better.
The developers need to rein in a communities expectations before they are allowed to run riot and lead to ppl accusing the developers of ruining their vision of the perfect game. Developers have a responsibility to the community to relate the true state of the game rather than sugar coat issues or delays, being honest I think is very important if you want to keep your community on your side.
I would go so far to say that Developers should stay as quiet as long as possible until they have a good solid game to show to the community rather than announce a project that they know they probably wont have funds enough to complete or lack of the right ppl to ensure the game is what it's advertised as being.
After coming into MMO's from EQ1 I have already been on far too many roller-coaster rides when following the next big thing, I have learnt my lesson the hard way and felt let down too many times to get my hopes up on the words of a games developer, I take things as they come now and won't be taken in by the hype machines anymore.
Wait a minute. Perhaps you should ask 'why are our expectations so high?' The marketing divisions of these games are way over hyping their product. Promising a gaming experience and feature that will blow us away. Then when the game ships and and the features aren't in, or are broken and the game doesn't deliver the 'ground-breaking' gaming experience the publisher raved about, BUT we're paying the price of a product that was supposed to have and be all the things we were offered, why shouldn't people be critical? Without even getting into the details of the game, at the very lease people should be upset because they were offered A at a given price but were delivered B.
If people are too critical, its only because the games are being over-marketed and unrealistically over-hyped. If that comes back to bite the company in the ass in the terms of unhappy customers I don't see it as anyone's fault but the company.
I completely agree.
Devs should have the right to remove content without crying and the gnashing of teeth. they should be able to test and alter without players moaning and complaining.
However, after all is said and done, players should then be given a reasonably polished gameplay experience.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Is it fair to want so much from a game, especially when we're talking about adding sandbox features? Maybe not.
However, it is reasonable to ask for a decent game on release, not after a year of release. I'm not going back to Vanguard now, no matter how much it's iimproved, I'll just try TOR later down the road.
I think a lot of complaints are down to either bad game design or the game being unfinished. I think people have a right to complain if they have bought something like this and it was advertised as something else.
As a side point I think devs are leaving themselves vulnerable to criticism. Firstly they are releasing unfinished games and secondly they are trying to please too large a group of people and therefore making watered down games. The mmorpg market contains a diverse group of people who want different things, instead of trying please them all they should make mmorpgs catered to specific groups and advertise them as such.
I would say no to an extent, and I don't think I am being ignorant. There are new games out there like the Chronicles of Spellborn, Aion, and Jumpgate: Evolution that I honestly expect to live up to the developers expectations. Notice, I did not say hype. I also would not be surprised if Champions Online, and one of Sony's two in developement games actually deliver a decent experience. You do have games like Age of Conan last year, and Darkfall this year (maybe) that have such a noisy fanbase that it is hard not to reply to the spam with counter-spam, and I have certainly delivered my weight in counter-spam. WAR was over-hyped for sure, but I don't place them in the same league. For one, you had them coming from a popular lineage of games, and it wasn't that they didn't produce a game that worked, it did, but in the end just wasn't very interesting.
I think the forums here, like many forums on the web produce heated discussion that makes it seem like the crowd is anti-everything new, but in the end when you look at those heated discussions it is usually coming from 2-5 people per thread. Yes, I have been one of those people. And these certainly push the latest threads on the front page to reflect quick replies.
If you really want to see conversations on MMORPG, I would suggest ignoring the front page and diving deeper into the game forum you are interested in, you will find it is much more constructive.
Played (more than a month): SWG, Second Life, Tabula Rasa, Lineage 2, Everquest 2, EvE, MxO, Ryzom.
Tried: WoW, Shadowbane, Anarchy Online, Everquest, WWII Online, Planetside
Beta: Lotro, Tabula Rasa, WAR.
It's interesting that ppl's views tend to be dominated by what the developers are saying from the very start of a project, the expectations of the community then grow from those first few golden features that will set that MMO apart from the others.
However if we look at the mirade of MMO's out there today that have all promised alot but delivered very little are we then really that surprised that expectations become shattered and communities feel cheated out of a gaming experience that was supposed to be the ultimate in MMO gaming.
Over the decade or so of 3d MMO's how far has the genre actually moved to fully deliver on the many promises of immersivness/Dynamic gaming/full interaction/real world impact/Player created content etc etc that we hear so often when a new MMO is announced, in fact it becomes something of a familar format when any new game is announced, some promise new avenues of progression, some tell us your path will be totally unique to anyone elses, your actions will have real consequences and that PvP will be meaningful, these are but a few promises that are bound to peak the interests of any jaded MMO gamer and it's no wonder the game suddenly becomes over hyped and the expectations of the community rises along with it.
I'm sure many of us will have tales to tell of feeling deflated when entering a game you have been following for years to find that the so called Massive PvP battles are infact nothing but a large empty zone with a few rabbits scurrying around, or the uniqueness of your character is exactly the same as your friends as soon as you max lvl. MMO tech really isn't upto the promises of the developers at this present time, oh they certainly look that way when the game is being shown at events like E3 or other conventions, but when you get to the meat of the game it will undoubtedly run just like any other typical MMO already on the market, just with a different skin on it.
Expectations need to be mixed with the realism about where MMO's are at and lets be honest they are basically stuck in a quagmire of repitition.
Unfortunately none of us are above becoming exctited over a project that we are genuinely enthusiastic about and the devs will take advantage of that for as long as possible until ppl suddenly realise that they just bought another ordinary MMO and find that their expectations have taken another battering.