Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Is Dynamic content the solution? (long)
Vexam
Member Posts: 16
What if we could play through content the way we want to? Instead of clearing a keep and finally killing the "boss" for our quest item, why couldn't we poison his expensive wine while it is on it's way to the keep and then sneak to the bathroom to wait for him? Why couldn't we do a quick chore for a guard to earn their trust and then take them out and steal their clothes to disguise ourselves? Or better yet - we could craft that same suit. We could even pretend to be nobility by wearing fancy suits and having our group mates (players) dress up as our maids. But what if one of them failed to act convincingly and blew our cover?
You poison the drink but find out the hard way that there was a food tester. You just wasted your money on poison and now security is tighter....
The above is an example of a "quest" or problem that players would have to solve. However, they wouldn't be limited to the tried and failed method of simply clearing all the guards and claiming their rewards. The content remains static in this case. However, what if the entire scenario was dynamically generated based on factors like past performance? What if a sabotage mission had many solutions but the actual locations of the key targets were random?
What if GROUP content wasn't marked that way because of the amount of enemies but because of the number of tasks that must be simultaneously completed? In a game with class systems, that could mean that the healer needs to heal a team of NPCs while the rogue sneaks past security to disable a trap. However, someone needs to hit a switch within 5 seconds of the rogue disabling a trap. It's too high... you'll need someone to throw something at it by aiming...
We've long complained that for years we've gone from disappointment to disappointment where MMOs are concerned. Warhammer is busy failing at meaningful PvP while AoC's plan to make combat more interesting was to remove auto-attack and add fatalities. I log in to these games and within an hour conclude that it is LUDICROUS that someone seriously thinks this is what I want to do with my time until max level and beyond. It was new and interesting for our first couple MMOs but now is the time to retire that system.
Why is character progression so limited? Why is there no RPG (read: STORY) element in any of today's games? Why is increased mana, mana regen, hp or damage the only variable in our encounters? Why is PvE progression jumping into a fixed instance every week and doing the same thing over and over? Really - who is entertained by this? Who is a fan of jumping into a fixed PvP instance to see who has the most crowd control or anti-crowd control? Let's login and grind pvp to get enough points to buy a whole set of gear that we can enjoy for two weeks before the new gear comes out!
Approach someone that isn't familiar with an MMO and suggest that this is how you spend your free time and tell me how they react.
All this to say that I believe new games shouldn't strive to improve the system. They should try to change the system. It's hard to imagine how MMOs would work without class based systems, without levels and without gear as we know it. But I look at other genres and see that they don't have any of these things and they are immensly fun and we keep playing them. However, their content is rarely updated. I'd like to suggest that that is why we pay a subscription fee for our MMOs. Let's start focusing on how we want to get what we want instead of the one path to get there. A few ideas:
- Multiple ways of doing anything and everything.
- Dynamic progression content that supports a multitude of playstyles. This means you will never NEED a healer, or NEED a tank, or NEED anything.
- Co-op focused content. Not group content (aka solo content with more mobs). Content where you genuinely need to work together to move on.
- Consequence to actions with permanent reputation changes. No gear/progression limitations. Just play through the way you want to - become more good, or more evil and become accepted or rejected by factions because of this.
- Let your story be known. Were you sloppy during your last mission? Why don't the people you've stolen from send people to kill/capture you? You could see them coming over time as shadow figures that hide behind corners wherever you go. Eventually, they strike. And just like in single player games or FPS like Deus Ex or Jedi Knight, have an equal skill battle that is CHALLENGING.
- Dynamic combat where your "Stats" (mana, health, gear) are secondary to your skill. If your enemy takes too large a swing and you're able to get a quick slice at his neck - that's it. Fight over, he's dead no matter how epic his sword is.
The main idea is that the current way we play MMOs is STALE and boring. I want to have fun again and that does not include 80 levels of bullshit and 4 months of grinding.
Thanks for reading this far. I hope that we can generate some good ideas to implement in our next gen mmos in this thread. I kept it short on the guild/group aspect of things because that is just a huge other post in and of itself. There is so much untapped potential in the player interaction category that it makes my head spin.
Comments
Yes Dynamic Content is the answer. Its cheaper, and it has no content limit since it creates itself and can create more. Ontop of all this Dynamic Content is more fun and random then the static content we have now. However, most mmo companies prefer the hire 500 people approach, then hire 30 scripters/programmers approach
I don't know about it being cheaper/easier to do...
But I agree; Dynamic Content RAH RAH RAH!
This is a really great idea!
I hope MMOs of the future will be more innovative and this idea is a step in the right direction.
*edit*
I also don't want to forget to mention my appreciation for posts that arent just complaints, but also have constructive ideas
I'd say it's only 68 levels of bullshit now. The last 12 are pretty good. And only 2-3 months of grind.
well ehm.. it wouldnt really be dynamic, it would still be static content, mulitple choice static content, but still static content.
My point is, it all has to be programmed, and making a quest with multiple solutions means 5 times as much programming to do per quest.
Not that anyone will care, they will read off the internet the EASIEST way to do something and they will do that, if the game has random triggers they will read charts on fansites that tells them how to figure the random triggers and proceed with the path of least resistance from there.
-Darkstar
Dynamic content isn't cheaper. If there are multiple ways to complete a quest those all have to be programmed, then balanced, then checked for exploits. Now multiply this by your typical number of quests people expect now a days and you've just increase your workload 4-5X. Plus like it was mentioned earlier, people REALLY don't care as much as you think. So what if you can kill the boss by poisoning him instead? If your skills mean little then what benefit does poisoning him have? If its easier to do that, I sure as hell will do it. If its easier to chop his head off, I'll do that=) I'm not going to purposely choose the more difficult option unless I get rewarded BETTER for doing it. Yup, MOST people will cheat so a whole lot of effort goes right down the toilet.
Deus Ex can be completed in 40 hours, probably less if I recall. It was fun, but thats like 2 weeks of content for many people. That game took years to make. Thats not a functional business model for a MMO. Dynamic and random is quite different. If its random, it sucks. If its dynamic QUALITY content, there has to be a whole lot of complex code running the systems. Since this needs repetition, dynamic content is just a lot of static choices. You think its dynamic. Its really not.
We seem to have different views on what Dynamic means in terms of content. What I mean is content that writes itself, what the original poster means is content that is given multiple choice answers. You can literally make a script to write quests, to have quests only appear for certain people, and to have those quests have twists. All while not needing 500 content generators.
Josher,
We understand the "limitations" of a dynamic solution. It would be a bunch of static content dynamically generated. However, it would not and does not require complex code. If any of you are familiar with Left 4 Dead, imagine that on top of having random spawns of events and at different times/places, the safe house/exit would also have a random spot.
So basically, instead of linear progression, you could enter an area and have a very easy sequence because the key and the plans happened to be in the first few rooms. Or someone else could have them deep within two different buildings (and be accordingly rewarded).
In terms of functional business model for an MMO, I don't see why it would be ridiculous to get content a lot more frequently. Hire more devs? Allow user generated content to be submitted for approval? Let guilds create their own content that is private to their guild? Training facilities? Epic palaces? I think current MMOs should have more content devs instead of giving a patch every 2 months with a few tweaks to the classes.
Being rewarded for how you complete a dynamic event is a whole other discussion. However, I disagree that people will always choose the easiest. I think most will choose what is most fun. Take Hitman and Deus Ex for example. You could go guns blazing. You could also sneak around.
A better example is Tribes 2. Imagine a standard capture the flag game. However, to get your weapons and medium/heavy armor, your inventory stations need to be powered by the generator. Same thing for the vehicle spawn and the turrets. In this case you could try your luck at going for the flag but if it is too heavily guarded, it might be more interesting to knock out the generator and take advantage of the minute of chaos to reach your goal. You don't always have to have all the choices is what I am saying. Maybe sneaking around is too damn hard and you'll just need your buddy to pull a distraction while you get the goods.
Maybe the alternate solutions won't always be so obvious.
Finally, in the Jedi Knight series, your lightsaber reflects all incoming laser fire. One storm trooper or even a few are not much of a threat. But spread a few of them through a room - some on the second floor, some across the way, and suddenly, you leave yourself open to attack while dealing with one group. You have to approach the situation a lot more carefully and you better be quick about what you have to do. These things have nothing to do with gear or hp or anything else - just a good way to make things challenging and interesting.
And trust me - players will find themselves quite pleased to have overcome something challenging. Before PvP rewards, we still did pvp because it was fun. Let's focus this genre on fun instead of loot.
when i initially read the wall of text at the top i thought he was talking about just static multiple choice questing, which obviously i thought was more time consuming, expensive and would never catch on. However i was unaware you can code a game so that it dynamically writes its own quests etc. If this could be done without increasing cost too much and be implemented effectively in the sort of way the OP suggested i think it would make for a fantastic breath of fresh air from the monotonous cycle MMOs have got into these days.
The problem is finding a company that could realistically tackle a new system like this and implement it well because the odds are the first game to try this will be made by a low budget company who is trying to make the next big MMO and they will cause it to be a massive flop and then nobody else will pick up the idea because from past experience it hasnt worked and therefore the people with the money will not want to take the risks for a game that potentially wont work.
A good read.
You know, when I was first hearing about Online Games, way back, I was influenced in my expectations by the many years of Pen and Paper RPGs. My expectation somehow was, there would be some hundred Game Masters dealing with the doings of the players. Now call that hilarious to expect, yes, but back then I didnt know a heck about MMOs. The idea that there was constantly the same staying content in an MMO never came to my mind. It was so absurd to me, when I finally found out how MMos REALLY were managed, that I stayed away from them for many years to come. MMORPGs were for me the epitome of everything boring and redundant. Camping for boss mobs for hours, being PKed by psyched fellow gamers, spending months in grind to raise the carpenting skill, sitting idly for minutes to restore mana and health... it all seemed like utter madness to me to ever waste time with such shit.
Somehow I feel we MMO gamers are kinda brainwashed to believe things are fun and to believe things must be as they are. In fact, these days it dawns to me that MMOs are not fun at all, and more or less never were. When I think of the REALLY good times I had in MMOs, in SWG and EQ2, it was because I was in a really great guild with really cool people. Something which for whatever reason I have never been able to replicate since then. Maybe guilds got worse, maybe it was bad luck, but I was never really satisfied ever since. Maybe MMos are not for me, but I definitely think these days MMOs are way overrated and way under-developed.
My only real hope for a lead forward these days remains SWTOR.
The idea of dynamic content is a great idea, but I guess without a game master as in pen and paper its hard to really implement, and I cant really imagine now that any company employes thousands of GMs running the game world. Or that some really clever programming could really do it. Oh well...
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I try read first part bu it was boring to much wall of txt, sorry for that.
TL;DR
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
People dont want unpredictable gameplay like dynamic spawns or npc's or whaever can be dynamic in a mmo, i see what happen with darkfall 90% whine and cry that its to difficult for them.
A dynamic mmo would be for a small group of players who can think for themselfsand figure it out.
Majority wants games be guided all the way no surprises, and with dynamic you get surprise they dont like it.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Yes, I want dynamic content. However, your example about poisoning the gaurds, or making costumes to look like guards, instead of killing them, does not strike me as dynamic. It's just an alternative way to fulfill a static quest. That doesn't appeal to me in the least.
Also, yuour request for better RPG, that is STORIES has no appeal to me either. In a static world I don't care what the story is, and if you want to make the world dynamic then the PLAYERS should make up the most interesting stories, not the NPC's.
The only part I like is the group play. I've often suggest similar group mechanics which require players to cooperate with one anohter. I think this would be fun.
I am with you OP.
Hopefully Bioware is thinking a bit along these lines, and maybe CCP/White wolf. Quests in MMOs are usually just boring today, particulary group quests.
Dynamic content is tremendously hard to do in a linear, level-based game. What you're talking about is, basically, a massively multiplayer physical simulation. And, believe me, I'm all for it. The issue of scaling that type of technology for so many users, however, is a bit difficult, especially with balance issues.
If we're talking about a broader definition of dyanamic, however, I really think that we need to look at advancing a few ideas that are really important to a massively multiplayer game, instead of a game that is played in small, disconnected groups, as most MMOs are today.
Developers need to be actively involved in playing the game. The development of new content is great for level-based MMOs, but it spreads a population thin. I tried playing EQ2 the other day and it was barren--SOE's design choices have made that inevitable. Instead of expanding land, I feel strongly that developers need to change the land. Something already exists: WoW's phasing system is flawed, but represents a wonderful realization that makes me giddy for their next MMO. Why? Because it is an acknowledgment that players want to see consequences in their actions. The PvMP model in LOTRO or even Left-4-Dead could be made into a terrific way to define that structure, as long as the developers serve as the counterpoint. I'm excited to see how Aion's developers treat that third entity and whether they'll make it hostile or simply decoration. If it is the former, it could give players a compelling narrative, or national identity, that is sorely lacking in most of these binary system games (WOW, WAR) that have to be balanced or "fair." In those games, any move to take control of land is very temporary, symmetrical, and, most importantly, the developers have no way to actually change the content of the game based on the outcome.
We're starting to see the "genrefication" of MMOs that will divide between a model that has been nearly perfected in Asia (level-based, time-intensive), and the more Western (open world, sandbox, time-scaling) development. That's not to say that all Western games follow that path, though. In actuality, most still follow the model that is so successful in Korea and China, which is why we see so many games being rebranded. But I think that Blizzard, SOE, Turbine, Cryptic and so on all recognize that there is a huge market for a game that moves more towards Second Life than Lineage, to move away from the theme park model and create lands that are relevant beyond being a "starting area."
So, in using the term dynamic I take the macro- approach. I don't need or want a developer to create a series of quests. I want them to create a world.
Hello 'brothers', not many of us, but we do exist... its good to hear from you and keep me from switching off. Sorry about the first line, but I had to wipe a tear from my eye when I read a few of the previous posts, emotion getting to me again...
Yes, we need to start underlining RPG in our MMOrpg games. They are to be fair doing a good job of getting made, released (usually) and building a population (sometimes), and most importantly- making some cash. Yeah they must do that, if not they'll die out regardless of how good they are. Unfortunatly this last point also means they seldom take risks, and as much as I'd love a dynamic (evolving) game, it can be done very badly- very easily.
With no set mission, most folk start scratching their heads and wondering why they bought this game... and lets be fair we'd be included in that. With no introduction to a game world (and I dont mean a little video) we'd be lost and probably very bored. Sure we may be able to kill the evil tyrant, but I dont know that yet and need to be spoon fed the adventure I could have. Remember that period of your life from zero to now... yep all your life, that was the introduction you got from the real world, and you still dont know everything.
The issue is... you need a very complex game system handling a vast number of stats you'd need to interact with each other in 'more limitless' ways, and this would need to be running without lag for as many players as possible. Not impossible, but if you dont get it right, you've just lost the millions you spent. And yep, its going to be millions to make it pretty and large enough (and advertised enough) for people to play... and you need people a lot of then in order to make your cash back and ensure the dynamic story will develop.
Wow, sounds depressing. And believe me, I dont want to depress your ideas... as was previously stated 'we need more ideas rather than just complaints', its just that I've been struggling with my politics system all morning (another struggling games developer) and its getting to me.
I think we can introduce the 'more ways to kill the tyrant' easy enough, its just a matter of taking longer writing the stories and giving more options... but thats not what we want, we want you (the player) to write the stories.. and that's what I hope others (those with the millions) are working on (not just a few of us).
Sorry about the long rant... I'll let others get a word in now... (back later)
I'm back, So dynamic content eh? Like previously mentioned we need evolving 'player generated' content. If we simply open up the options of completing a static mission then sure, things would be more interesting, indeed you could repeat the quest several times and do so in a different way each time, most likely with your alts each with their own skill set. But lets face it, this is what WOW should be rather than what MMO-RPG should be.
The only way of getting dynamic content from 'current MMOs' is having a hundred writters supported by a thousand devs and have them watch everything that happens on each server and keep writing, writing, writing. Not only expensive, but probably not very fun to play as it would be half written and badly coded.
Some super advanced AI might do the job but as none manage a convincing Turin-test I doubt they're up to the job yet either.
So its down to you and me, the most creative and powerful computing system we currently have.
The system I have in mind involves a natural economy, class-less skill based system, not twitch control (else character stats less useful than player skill), player definable law system, persistance (PCs can meet their alts), 'real-distances' (not need actual real, but ensure that resources cant move too quickly around the world- eg no instant post), in depth PC crafting (incl buildings), player owned buildings (incl shops and restaurants), food being required to live, a social system based upon perception rather than absolutes (no names and alignment floating over your head), 'rest rewards' based upon environment (including cleanliness).... and so on (it really does go on).
With these new but not necesaily complex systems in place we find a game system where we have the seed of roleplaying, however we also need a player quest system just to make it easier for those who need pointing at adventure.
The fact is in a fleshed out world we can define our own goals, but a great many people will find such a world very dull as they dont want to spend so much time building as they do just adventuring, I understand that, I dont always want to spend a whole day looking for something to do. Instead I'd sooner just walk into the local 'adventurers tavern' (they'll exist as we have a need for them) and ask in the right way if anyone knows of any 'jobs'. Many jobs will be just that, jobs, you see when you're offline your character can be working or training as you see fit, but a few will be more interesting 'quests'.
Another point is that the world must already exist, many sandbox designs leave you in an empty sand pit and wonder why most folk leave. Real life is a sandbox, yet you may notice a great many things already in existence, towns and cities, economies and laws, alliances and wars. The game should be built without any of these, indeed be capable of running from stone age to medieval just like most RTS, and then to make the game interesting have the DEVs play the game (hi speed ) following a prewritten story until the system is ready to go live. Players can be slowly introduced permitting everything to come alive, NPCs will be killed off in favour of PCs joining the game (a few super NPCs can stay in the background for future plot lines). Eventually you'll reach the start of the game, now advertise and start charging.
Anyone got the cash as I've got a few ideas how to spend it???
because the technology is not there.
The boss has to want to drink the poison drink. Either you have to script that .. which makes it NOT dynamic .. or at least you have to code every single possible action (very expensive), or you have to have a algorithm of general behavior, which no one has developed yet.
Elikal, you took the words right out of my mouth.
Again, I understand the scenarios I highlighted in the OP are dynamic solutions to a static goal. The goal could be dynamic too. To give you guys an idea of the possibilities of randomly spawned/generated enemies: L4D developers got the system implemented in under 2 weeks for their entire game.
Chrswlf, I think the whole point is to let go of what we currently have as the set in stone standard of MMOs. Forget levels, forget gear. Forget linear progression. Forget killing as the only way to progress. Forget the grind. Look at what planetside did. Leveling up gave you access to more certification points but not new certifications. You could have access to more weapons, but you couldn't use them all at the same time. Play how you want to play, when you want to play.
I think after reading all these posts I realize that the genre needs to be focused on the mass number of people playing instead of the number of NPCs they interact with. More thoughts later.
That is not true. The technology is there. Scripting AI has been around for awhile. Sure, it would probably be more like a library of possible actions that the AI chooses to use or not. The king of a castle might not be approachable between 5 and 6 because he's out riding. Next time, he might decide to go hunting from 5:30 to 6:30.
Unpredictable content might be a better way to describe it.
And "coding every single possible action" is not "very expensive." You make a set of physical actions that determine how a character moves. Then you determine how a robe interacts on that model while it's moving. Now, whether you use Robe A or Robe B won't have you running around changing the movement code. Same idea for content.
And imagine the quantity of private content users could generate. Give us the tools.
chrswlf was absolutely right with his final statement. "I don't need or want a developer to create a series of quests, I want them to create a world."
Give us the base upon which we, the players, can build. Not event content, make player interaction change the world. Let people shape the MMO. Let each server, if we even have them, be different from the next. Let each guild be more than just a chatroom. Let it be a part of the game.
I imagine too much imbalance and a whole lot of bitching in a system like this, leading to lots of unfun and griefing mechanics. People accomplishing what others can't because they easily exploited something and since its a part of the game its suddenly OK. Thats not going to fly mainstream and its going to take someone mainstream to do it right. As long as you have a playerbase willing to be experimented on, which is exactly what this would be, you're golden=) But give too much control to the player and the worst comes out. Look at Eve. Years of work and I call it work because thats what playing Eve basically is, flushed down the drain. No going back. No recovery. Accomplishments gone in a day, because of the players. You may THINK that makes the game better. No. it just doesn't make it a game anymore. It becomes a simulation and I understand some people want that. Most don't. They don't see their games as simulations. They see them as breaks from the biggest simulation we have, life.
Most don't want to step out of the daily grind and walk into another even WORSE one.
That is not true. The technology is there. Scripting AI has been around for awhile. Sure, it would probably be more like a library of possible actions that the AI chooses to use or not. The king of a castle might not be approachable between 5 and 6 because he's out riding. Next time, he might decide to go hunting from 5:30 to 6:30.
Unpredictable content might be a better way to describe it.
And "coding every single possible action" is not "very expensive." You make a set of physical actions that determine how a character moves. Then you determine how a robe interacts on that model while it's moving. Now, whether you use Robe A or Robe B won't have you running around changing the movement code. Same idea for content.
And imagine the quantity of private content users could generate. Give us the tools.
chrswlf was absolutely right with his final statement. "I don't need or want a developer to create a series of quests, I want them to create a world."
Give us the base upon which we, the players, can build. Not event content, make player interaction change the world. Let people shape the MMO. Let each server, if we even have them, be different from the next. Let each guild be more than just a chatroom. Let it be a part of the game.
It won't work unless all the NPCs are doing random things. Otherwise you have to script for EVERY SINGLE ONE of them, and all teh possibilities, and the interaction. Combinatorial explosion set in very fast.
And the bugs will be really bad.
Unfortunately I also agree with Josher
The vast bulk of folk just want a game, and one that they can learn how to win, or at least read a walkthough for some of the tougher bits. When we make fantasy-sim regardless of how many RPGers will love it, I doubt we'll find enough players to fill the world and so fuel a global economy.
Its a matter of ensuring that the gamers get a game and the RPGers get role-play and the sandboxers have a world to play around with. Get it right and each of these groups will enjoy all aspects, yeah- the gamers will enjoy a bit of crafting as long as they dont have to do it, and might even like a bit of role-playering if it suits them.
And as I said before thats the prob, its too easy to do wrong.
I would instead call this Alternative Quest Pathing. It’s a great idea but comes up against a few problems, the foremost being that many players would not like this approach. If we can overcome that it would make for superb play. You get this sort of play in solo RPG's
The game would tailor its game play to the type of player you are. Want to rush head on in and kill everything, well there is a quest like that for you. Sneak around and steal anther quest in the same Path. Or use diplomacy to talk your through. As long as the Paths take roughly the same time it could work. But that’s just three paths and three times the hours needed to create that one Quest Path module.
The future perhaps, but not at least for a few years yet.