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Animation: Do we all agree?
This is my first time posting in these forums, but I just need to get this out. I appologize if this is a dead horse.
First: I love the concept of Darkfall. I admit, I'm very interested to see what becomes of this game.
That being said though, let's get one thing straight here: the character animations are bad.
This doesn't make the game bad. I'm just saying, the character animations are bad. Is there anyone in their right mind that finds the character animations wonderful little slices of heaven?
Discuss. The purpose of this discussion is not to troll or hate on Darkfall as a game, but merely on a specific aspect of it. Hopefully this will vent some hating into (what I consider) a valid area. Really, does anyone have a good defense of Darkfall's character animations? Don't derail this discussion into claims that the game is still good on the whole - I accept that it probably will be. Just focus on the animations themselves.
To be fair, many MMOs I have played have lacked in the animation department - the feel of moving/doing stuff with your character; the fluidity. Perhaps it's a very difficult thing to perfect. Flame me if you will, but that is one area that WoW really shines in. Character animation in WoW is fluid and well-paced. Granted we're talking Blizzard versus Adventurine here, but please, is it really acceptable for Darkfall in 2009? Their animation isn't going to change in two weeks or two months, maybe never. I could be wrong on this, but I don't think good animation is something you just patch into a game later.
Anybody?
Comments
This is the only game that I am looking forward to. The concepts in DF look very promising, all in all I think it will be a really good game eventually. But I must admit I agree with you ... the melee sword swinging animation doesnt even look human. The character moves in a way that looks unreal, sluggish and not natural. I'm hoping this is something that gets "fixed" somehow. This may be wishful thinking on my part though.
I agree the animations are bad, but honestly with all of the other things that need to be addressed before launch, I would make it a low priority.
I can deal with bad animations much easier then broken mechanics in the game. They should not forget about them, but it is something I think could wait until after launch.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
The developers have so many things on their plate right now that I doubt very much we will see improvements to the animations--some of which are okay, but some of which could really be improved.
Bad animations do bother me. So this is an issue I not only have with DF but with Vanguard as well. It's immersion breaking, affects my attack timing, and makes my character seem more cartoony (in a bad way).
Truth be told ingame they look ok, especially with good armor on. naked on youtube looks like crap
Of course this could be bc most are not looking at animations, but looking to see where the next PK is comin from to axe you over the head.
i'd say its bad because the dev team would not have access to the stuff the big developers have. When it comes to animations a guy in a (high tech) suit is used to make animations more fluid and realistic. I doubt the Darkfall devs would have been able to use one and it shows in the animations, but they can be improved upon later.
i would rather see them fix up other features (mostly ones that effect gameplay) rather than animations.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
Perhaps you are right, but I don't understand how animations would be different from the youtube beta leaks as opposed to in-game. Graphics, yes, I can see those being better in-game with the quality turned up. But we're talking animation here - how fluid the movement is. Characters in Darkfall hardly move their torso at all when they run, they just stiffly hold their weapon and their legs move back and forth. Maybe you can overlook the animations when you're getting PKed, but I hardly think that's a valid strategy for making things "alright".
This is a very good point. I'm curious though - can you actually go in and reprogram every character animation in the game, post-production? Has any MMO developer done that before? I just wonder... not only will they be busy with balancing, but also is it even fesible from a technical standpoint to patch in something as rooted as animations after the product is live? If anyone has answers or examples, please share. I really would like to know, because if such a thing is possible or even likely, that would greatly increase my long-term hope for Darkfall.
EDIT: typo demon
They look real bad to me as well...surprisingly bad I actually laughed first beta leak I seen.
Meh they aren't good. If you are viewing them when not playing the game vs. when in game they will look much worse. Maybe because I am not that critical of graphics. My favorite MMO's are UO, FFXI, and I love Linnkrealms which just started popping up out of nowhere. Ryzom, and EVE which have awkward or no animations at all.
It just doesn't matter that much to me. In game it feels ok.
Really the sounds and spell effects are a milliion times higher up on any priority list for me.
From the waist down they dont move when they fight. It is all upper body.
Rag on WoW all you want but the combat animations are awesome as characters bend their knees and step into battles, etc.
This is a very good point. I'm curious though - can you actually go in and reprogram every character animation in the game, post-production? Has any MMO developer done that before? I just wonder... not only will they be busy with balancing, but also is it even fesible from a technical standpoint to patch in something as rooted as animations after the product is live? If anyone has answers or examples, please share. I really would like to know, because if such a thing is possible or even likely, that woul greatly increase my long-term hope for Darkfall.
All of this can be updated, and may be. Don't forget they said that the final client may be around 18gb, and the beta is half that. There could be a lot of placeholders, but no one knows. These types of things are generally why judgment should be reserved until a game launches.
Not good. Actually in my mind they are terribly made.
For the amount of years Darkfall has been in production, the animations should not be so robotic. Though now it is so closed to launch, Aventurine probably put that on the bottom of the list.
The animations are pretty lame… but hey I am a HUGE World War II Online fan and those animations suck. That game still rocks though
I could live with DF animation….The only animation that is beyond horrible and borderline laughable are the dual weapon animations
I have come here to chew bubble gum and kick ass... and Im all out of bubble gum
Yes WoW animations rock house. Blizzard has the resources to hire a multitude of full time artists. Aventurine doesn't have those resources. Expecting similar quality from a Blizzard title and a small indy company is entirely unrealistic.
Not that I am making excuses. It is just important to understand these things. If animations and such are a key point for you it may be wise to wait on Darkfall and see if it is for you as more and more videos and reviews come out.
This is a very good point. I'm curious though - can you actually go in and reprogram every character animation in the game, post-production? Has any MMO developer done that before? I just wonder... not only will they be busy with balancing, but also is it even fesible from a technical standpoint to patch in something as rooted as animations after the product is live? If anyone has answers or examples, please share. I really would like to know, because if such a thing is possible or even likely, that would greatly increase my long-term hope for Darkfall.
EDIT: typo demon
Maybe, but it'd probably be with new character models altogether which usually don't come until an MMO is out for years, if they come at all. However, if you were generating new character models and you wanted to use better, more realistic animations for them, that'd make sense to me. I don't think they could do it in a typical patch though - that's a lot of data. More likely than not, they'll have to sell it in an expansion maybe a whole new game altogether.
Edit: To respond to Death1942, Motion Capture technology is still pretty damn expensive and most MMOs I've seen, with the exception of AoC, haven't used it. In AoC, the animations are great, except that characters' feet move like they're skating on ice. Or have they fixed that? That's really unrealistic, even if the feet movement match very well with the upper body motions.
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A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
All of this can be updated, and may be. Don't forget they said that the final client may be around 18gb, and the beta is half that. There could be a lot of placeholders, but no one knows. These types of things are generally why judgment should be reserved until a game launches.
Good info. Thanks for the response. Hopefully that holds true and Adventurine is able to do something about the animations after they rake in some cash from release. That might be the best we can hope for as far as the animations go. However, with that money they might decide to prioritize other improvements as well.
EDIT: typo demon strikes again
Most people beyond the obsessed see the animations and sound as pretty baaad. I am surprised aventurine did not do better. Especially in the sound department. Small company fine.. but lower standards ? Sorry they have to compete with the big boys. Innovation is key and these two areas are let down badly.
Oh, absolutely.
Small indie company making a "WoW clone": "Please, we need your continued support and enthusiasm while we're going through these difficulties. We're a small company after all!"
MMORPG.com community: "LOL NOOBZ JOO PHAIL"
Small indie company making a full-loot PvP sandbox, when there are other "hardcore" PvP sandboxes coming out by what seem to be more competent companies: "Please, we need your continued support and enthusiasm while we're going through these difficulties. We're a small company after all!"
MMORPG.com community: "ZOMG YES I LOVE JOO GAIZ HAI TROLLS LEVE DEM ALONE."
Well, that's how I see it. Best way to peoples' hearts here is smack "PvP" and "sandbox" together.
--------------------------------------
A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
Mm, agreed. It's all fine and good for die-hard fans to be patient with animations and sounds and such. But I have to smirk a little when I hear some Darkfall fanboys praise DFO as the second coming that will judge WoW down into Hell... I mean, really? There are more reasonable fanboys, to be sure...but some of the crazy ones really worry me...
This is an established industry, and while I respect and even give a nod of approval to Darkfall for trying something different, you can't escape the final line: the customer, and the current market. The people who have not been following this game since 2001; the people who will learn about this game only after it is released, will judge the game based on youtube videos.
This is the reality of our time. We all did it with AoC and WAR, and we'll do it here too. If a game doesn't look fluid and fun, the average gamer will be less interested in it at face value, and therefore less likely to browse deeper and discover the quite possibly shiny underbelly to DFO.
Mm, agreed. It's all fine and good for die-hard fans to be patient with animations and sounds and such. But I have to smirk a little when I hear some Darkfall fanboys praise DFO as the second coming that will judge WoW down into Hell... I mean, really? There are more reasonable fanboys, to be sure...but some of the crazy ones really worry me...
This is an established industry, and while I respect and even give a nod of approval to Darkfall for trying something different, you can't escape the final line: the customer, and the current market. The people who have not been following this game since 2001; the people who will learn about this game only after it is released, will judge the game based on youtube videos.
This is the reality of our time. We all did it with AoC and WAR, and we'll do it here too. If a game doesn't look fluid and fun, the average gamer will be less interested in it at face value, and therefore less likely to browse deeper and discover the quite possibly shiny underbelly to DFO.
This is where skeptics and fanbots can finally agree. They both want the game to be the best it can be, but for different reasons.
Fanbots want a great game for themselves. They've really been looking forward to DF and, if it delivers on what it promises very well, they'll be in MMO heaven. That's a respectable desire and no one is blaming them for it.
Skeptics...are a bit different. Some might want to try it themselves, which means they want a great game to try, but others think that should DF release in an unacceptable level of quality (unacceptable to the average gamer, as you mentioned), it'll be a big black mark on the sandbox type of game, and they don't want that. Fortunately for DF, there are other sandboxes coming out which may save the idea of sandboxes if DF fails to impress or deliver all its features.
--------------------------------------
A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
As I said I am a fan of World War II Online and I think small companies like Cornered Rat and Aventurine can get away with cheese ball animation so long as the game play makes up for it.
The pvp in World War II Online is so good and demands such skill, situational awareness, teamwork, and tactics that you forget about the animation.
The melee combat in Darkfall in a mindless clickfest with people running around like chickens with their heads cut off or just posting up standing still swinging (pve) – it is here especially that the bad animation becomes glaring obvious
I have come here to chew bubble gum and kick ass... and Im all out of bubble gum
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Animations are bad. Sound is bad. This is not bothering me much, per se. What is bothering me is WHY. I don't think it's the money. People are selling very good walking (or anything you can think of) animations for less than 1$ in Second Life. I have seen good animations made by amateur people in Youtube.
Then, why?
Are they so clueless as not being able to find a good animator? Or to buy animations at a reasonable price? Are they so deep in shit that don't have the time/energy/talent to realize what needs to be improved?
The beta animations and beta sound do need some work. But the difference between ordinary MMOs, is that in DF you have too look what others are doing...FPS style. So you wont have any time watching how beautiful things look.
And the beta testers dont mind the animations to much.
That would be because the beta testers obviously are not going to continue beta testing something they don't like >.>