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Stats vs Skill
Jackdog
Member UncommonPosts: 6,321
Interesting thread over on the main forums about stats.
forums.ageofconan.com/showthread.php
the gist of it it is that in AoC right now stats don't matter much at all but that is one of the things that will be changing some time this summer. Not really a easy task because you have to tweak in each item in the data base and also all the PvE mobs have to be adjusted.
But that's not what I why I made this thread . I was wondering how people over here feel about how much items should affect the player. Myself I think there is a balance to be had where one does not have to feel as if they have the absolute best gear to be competitive, as you do in WoW, yet there is enough of a effect to where you feel some satisfaction when you acquire a better piece.
Some PVE centric games have managed to accomplish this quite well, only time will tell whetehr FC can pull it off. They sure blew it with the gem system and I will have to see it to believe it when they start tweaking in the regular gear database.
I miss DAoC
Comments
You pretty much hit how I feel about it. Being 100% gear based is just painful.
That was one of AOC's selling points, that pvp was skill based and lower level players had a chance against higher level players. Looks like thats going to change.
While I see where some would like this design I think the big drawback is that the core concept in these games is the risk vs reward factor. For a PvE player about the only way to reward them for accomplishing that difficult quest is a nifty piece of gear that boosts their abilities.
I miss DAoC
There have been alot of talk over the years about MMOs and skill.
First off. There are many kind of skills. One beeing social skill that in a mmo world should be rewarded as much as the skill to push buttons. After all this is a MMO game based on Social values.
Secondly - Button smashing skills only in a mmo game simply does not work. I play COD4 against my friends and we have a blast. We have simulare Ping so we are using our skills to beat the other with same lvl of gear.
Now... I have also played ppl across the world in Cod 4. Joined a server where I had ping of 450 and the others had 40-50. I lost 90% of the time. I quit that server cause it was kinda obvious it was my ping that was determining the outcome - not my skills. I found another server with better Ping and did alot better.
Now.. MMO games have one thing in common. You play through the SAME SERVER LOCATION. YOu can not switch server if you are 1000km from the current server to get better ping. Its all the same !
WHy is there no COD4 MMO server ? Exactly - Ping...
Why is there no MMO based on 100% skills ? Exactly - Ping...
It doesn't matter how skilled you are. If the person you are figthing against is having better ping he will win. Same skill lvl of players and ping will determine the outcome. To think that there will ever be a MMO game where skills Only determine anything is absurd to even think off.
PPL playing MMOS and asking for skills only should go back to FPS. But in most cases those ppl are loosers there and are relying on ping in MMOs to get an advantage.
they should make the distinction between pve and pvp clearly.
for pve, the amount of time required to get an item (along with how many others you need around) should scale wih how good the item is.
Lets say each lvl your overall power as a chacter increases by 20% (so lvl 40 naked joe = lvl 39 naked joe x (1.2)) then
hardest group quest that takes longest to complete should reward you with an item which increases your power(at that level with an item at that lvl) by 20% / (number of items you can have on you). All the rest should scale down accordingly. 1 hour solo quest shouldnt give more than 2 hour solo, and that shouldnt give more than 1 hour group quest.
i should be able to ditch same amount of dmg/healing/protection 1 level higher than me can if he isnt equipped well and im equipped well. For this to work leveling needs to be reconsidered, its too easy to level and what you get other than some cap lvls which block access to stuns combos etc has minimum benefits atm.
for pvp i think armor should only be social clothing. by social clothing i mean stats from armors&weapons should be same or minimal (1%, or someting like 1-8 dmg vs 2-7 )within same class. getting pvp levels should open new visuals for armors and weapons and maybe some emotes&titles etc.
I need more vespene gas.
Does anyone think that having skill points instead of levels helps this issue? Personally I prefer skill points instead of levels because in this genre level> almost anything.
I know it wasnot easy working on the balance but PVP in SWG before the great cleansong was fun because you really didnt know what the other guy was capable of. There were infinite templates to suit every taste
I guess Ill just add that and sandbox to my wishlist for future games
One of the things that got me interested in AoC was the claim that skills/tactics were more important than stats derived from gear.
While I can accept that a percentage of players actually like what Funcom implemented in AoC, to me the whole PvP design failed on numerous levels:
Well I could go on but I guess you get my point.
If Funcom wanted to balance the game with BOTH PvP and PvE in mind they should work a little with what they actually got...
PvP would benefit from more focus on PvP'ing instead of grinding gear/gold.
PvE could benefit from more variation in skillsets, the hunt for rare-skinned gear etc.
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
(repeat ad infinitum)
This puts down the myth that naked fighting works ok: Getting Naked For Science: Armour Is Good 'Mmkay! Video
I see no difference to how my stats and gameplay correlate in compared from Lotro to AoC right now. Solely in terms of Skill AoC offers more edge and ability in PvP that most games because people at lower levels can fight back and be challenging. Gear is a small make up in this area by still an important part just like with most other games.
As can be seen here: www.youtube.com/watch and www.youtube.com/watch you can if your knowledgeable and skillfull enough quite easily take on people 20 + levels above, something proven many times over.
FC have been working internally on reitemization since back from November I believe which is not too far off and will be welcomed.
Gear has an effect, the best stuff can take time to get but is accessible in approach, next tiers down are just as good crafted with the difference between 1st and 2nd best minimal. Even when the rebalance comes AoC's gear won't matter as much as those in other games like WAR where it is over upwards of 60% or WoW where it is higher. Publically stated for AoC if I remember right up to 40%, and that is only on a few things.
I mean AoC is a game where lowbies can take on high levels, because the way the combat system is set up, things are more free flowing and more in control giving you additional confidence I find.
Excellent post Avery. I have not seen that armor vs naked experiment before, but armor does really make a difference. Interesting.
EDIT: OMG AWESOME, who's playing that assasin. Have not seen anyone playing as well as that guy before. He use the dodge ability a lot I see.
Well its an interesting issue on how stats are broken in AoC, coupled with most talent trees being broken in some way. Perhaps the skill in playing AoC is guessing which class and which stats are broken the least. If you ask anyone what works and what doesn't work in the game you end up with either people pretending they know, or people shrugging. I really believe that these issues have confused the makers of the game (FC) themselves.
But I see any mmorpg as an electronic version of TSR D&D games, the dice the gear should all based around that concept. Most people will find that nothing about AoC really makes sense.
Is there any reason to PvE?--Nope it's skill based, gear doesn't matter. (you can fight naked)
Is it an Action game? -Nope it's turn based in real time with cool downs.
Is it a hybrid like Fallout3 or KotOR? Nope they had direct button to action controls (eg left click to shoot weapon)
So stats don't work, and if they did they don't matter?
No Direct button Control?
But it's turned based?
So what is it?
Answer: A Royal Cluster F**k
Stats are working in AoC. 10 str gives 1 dps more, so the effect of the stats isn't all that great. But stats does work, there can be some that needs tweaking but compared to launch where stats didn't mean anything they do now have a minor difference. This difference is however very small and most people wouldn't want to stack up on strength as the extra damage you get from it isn't really worth it.
Personally I like how the gear is in AoC at the moment, when gear means max 25% of the characters ability to kick ass it all boils down to knowledge of the class and knowledge of your opponents class. People going to go spastic now, but this is where skill comes into the picture. With the itemization patch they aim to boost the stats and gear to be closer to 50% or so rather then the 25% we see today. Hopefully this won't turn the game into another WoW clone where you have to farm for certain types of gear. That was one of the things I really disliked about WoW, and if AoC turns into the same, quite possibly that will be a reason for me to consider quitting as I don't want to be forced to do x things over and over just to be able to compete with others.
Playing: Battlefield - Bad company (Xbox360) Arma2, DFO (PC)
On my radar: TSW, MO
MMO's played: SWG (pre cu/cu), WoW, AoC, WAR, DFO, Planetside
MMO's that I have tested: Lotro, L2, Aion, Ryzom
I think I lean towards a mix of the two..For example:
In EVE, I like that two individuals can have entirely different experiences based solely on how they distribute their skills/attributes. The title rewards you for specializing, and yet provides enough difference within that specialization to make distinctions between you and another player in the same class of ship; depending on what each of you wanted to do with your time online. It's dizzying and complex, and I like that amount of choice where I feel my skill and experience within the environment is key to my or my corps success.
In EQ2, there is a gigantic world with loads of weapons/gear that DO have a significant impact on your character's role; and almost entirely for PVE playstyles and encounters. Not so much where it unbalances the game in my view; but enough to make me "RAR" at mobs being destroyed by said gear/weapon. Add in the achievement trees and I'm happy enough with the blend of skill/stat+uniqueness for my avatar.
it all depends on how they do it. LoTRO found a nice compromise by making the raid gear suited for threats only found in the raid dungeons. The six man instance gear is equal or only only slightly better than the critted crafted gear and the solo quest gear. Of course that means a lot of work and skill balancing the gear and laying out the raid and instnace encounters. I doubt if FC has the manpower or skill to pull it off.
I miss DAoC
i think they have the skill, i remember AO as a complicated skill based game where you spend a good time of your game on the items you can get, and try to get into.
the more i think about it, more i wonder why they bothered with yet another fantasy mmo albeit the dark setting, AO2 would have done much better.
anyway i hope they can pull it together, if they make the wrong move with the stats i dont think they would get any more subs than what they have right now, free trials or not.
I need more vespene gas.
It is very important in AoC to feat your character right. All those feats look very attractive but you need to specialize in one tactic so that you can get the best possible protection and damage output pr second. Typically there are multiple ways of doing this pr character and the game is often about figuering out what the tactics from the other guys side is and counter before you are dead. Stats also make some difference, also gear, but iit's ultimately your feating and tactics that mean something.
It is very important in AoC to feat your character right. All those feats look very attractive but you need to specialize in one tactic so that you can get the best possible protection and damage output pr second. Typically there are multiple ways of doing this pr character and the game is often about figuering out what the tactics from the other guys side is and counter before you are dead. Stats also make some difference, also gear, but iit's ultimately your feating and tactics that mean something.
Feats defines what character you are, and most of the feats does work. There is still some talk about feats not working, but I have seen people claim them not to be working and other people say that they do work. Feats are a interesting way to tune your character to do the role you want him to do.
Playing: Battlefield - Bad company (Xbox360) Arma2, DFO (PC)
On my radar: TSW, MO
MMO's played: SWG (pre cu/cu), WoW, AoC, WAR, DFO, Planetside
MMO's that I have tested: Lotro, L2, Aion, Ryzom
It is very important in AoC to feat your character right. All those feats look very attractive but you need to specialize in one tactic so that you can get the best possible protection and damage output pr second. Typically there are multiple ways of doing this pr character and the game is often about figuering out what the tactics from the other guys side is and counter before you are dead. Stats also make some difference, also gear, but iit's ultimately your feating and tactics that mean something.
Feats defines what character you are, and most of the feats does work. There is still some talk about feats not working, but I have seen people claim them not to be working and other people say that they do work. Feats are a interesting way to tune your character to do the role you want him to do.
Ohh all Feats (or at least 99% of them) are most definitely working (and it has been so for half a year or so). I know that because I have been through a lot of refeating and optimization of my main lately. Trying to make him optimizaed for both Raid tanking and PvP, via use of the stances.
Age of Conan made the right choice with gear and that's why 11 million people play it for the last 5 years.
And how many millions are not playing it while playing some other MMO's ?
If AoC ever becomes item centric game like most other MMO's well thats the time I will say bye bye AoC it was fun while lasted.
I liked what they did and hope it wont change much by itemization patch.
In AoC you can give some average player best items available and skilled player will kill him naked using only weapon and no armor at all.
Futilez[Do You Have What It Takes ?]
In AoC you can give some average player best items available and skilled player will kill him naked using only weapon and no armor at all.
This is true,
..I believe it's called: Combo Molding.....
forums.ageofconan.com/showthread.php
And how many millions are not playing it while playing some other MMO's ?
If AoC ever becomes item centric game like most other MMO's well thats the time I will say bye bye AoC it was fun while lasted.
I liked what they did and hope it wont change much by itemization patch.
In AoC you can give some average player best items available and skilled player will kill him naked using only weapon and no armor at all.
Well, this is not entirely the case as Amazing Avery showed before today (in a vid) that armor and equipment makes a difference. But your point is right, a guy that have not grinded every raid instance can take out vets with 100's of play hours if he knows his shit. I think this is a very good thing.
In AoC you can give some average player best items available and skilled player will kill him naked using only weapon and no armor at all.
This is true,
..I believe it's called: Combo Molding.....
forums.ageofconan.com/showthread.php
Lol no combo molding
Futilez[Do You Have What It Takes ?]