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Skill in the "FPS" Style
Now, I know that the whole click to attack idea is fairly popular in terms of reflex vs. button mash. However, from what I can tell, there is indeed a global cooldown on the time you can make your next attack.... if im mistaken, please correct me. What this means is you basically have to strafe or dodge or block until that .5 seconds or whatever amount of time between then and your next attack is up.
Most fighting games overcome this deficiency with huge numbers of different attacks and combos with various effects and timing as well as targeting various points on the body (high, mid, low). But from what I can tell, there is nothing of the sort here. If I am a fast moving character(less armor) will I be able to stab my opponents legs to slow them down? Will attacking the torso do more damage than attacking say, the arms? Do i have many types of attacks asside from the basic click (different animations for the same attack do not mean different attacks).
Now everyone is very critical of WoW. "It's easy" "Button masher" "No skill" etc. You've all heard, and said it. But when a player has 20 abilities to choose from against a player who has just as many, that makes a large amount of situational variables vs. if someone has only one simple attack, and block. Which requires more skill then, the simple click to attack, or the "button masher" with 20 abilities?
Other variables that could be introduced(but have not as far as i can tell)... different weapons should have different attacks.... simple as that. A spear is not made for slashing people, it is a stabbing weapon, an giant axe is something you bring crashing down on someone with both hands, you should NOT be able to swing it as fast as the guy with the gladius. The gladius is only a foot and a half long, and as such, you should have a hard time against a polearm thats 12 feet long.
It's almost 2010, and I am just not wiling to tolerate clunky graphics while being told that "gameplay is more important than graphics". That excuse won't wash with me any more. I expect my games to have both good graphics and good gameplay.
-Quote Isoke(VN boards)
Comments
There is no skill involved only deciding factor is how much you grinded and how many potions and other supplements you are carrying.
Not so, for example. Lets say a mage has 3 skills. He has a long casting fire burst spell that does a tremendous amount of damage, a fast firing water spell that does little damage, but instantly casts and costs low mana, and quick casting lightning bolt that doesnt do as much damage as the fire burst but doesnt take as long to cast.
Ok.... can you tell me which is better to use in pvp? Thats right, the faster casting ones. Why? Because nobody is dumb enough to let you stand still and do your long ass casting spell which does tremendous amounts of damage, they are going to get in your face and stun, and kill you before you even fire it off. That requires THINKING! Knowing when to use your low damage fast fire, and when to stack it on. KNowing how to distance, and to be directionally oriented toward your opponent. To conserve mana. You can have played for 50 years, and have thousands of pots, and you still wont win, if you can't time abilites and stack spells right. If you only have one or two abilities to use, whats there to learn?
It's almost 2010, and I am just not wiling to tolerate clunky graphics while being told that "gameplay is more important than graphics". That excuse won't wash with me any more. I expect my games to have both good graphics and good gameplay.
-Quote Isoke(VN boards)
Yeah.
As u progress in melee u gain abilities, like knockback, whirlwind attack and various other special attacks.
There is a list out there somewhere.
-Darkstar
If u have in DF with a melier 6-7 diferent moves example simpleattack,sheild bash ,and some other diferent attacks with manual combat system like DF has,and on the other hand lets say wow ' s combat style where a warrior for example has 20-25 skills but always use in a combat charge +harmstring (macro) ,mortal strike,heroic strike whirlwind,and then intercept and again the same story harmstring and mortal strike again,perhaps a fear blah blah, he used 7-8 skills from his 20-25 like a melier in DF does. The diference is thaqt the good warior in wow is seperated from the others on how much fast he spams cliking the right skills and in DF a good warrior will be judged not by how fast hes clicking but from all his combat behavior , movement right timing on attacks, hiting the target more times bloc king and dodging manually wiht good timing.
So the conclusion is that both wow and DF require skills from the player it s just wow requires fast clicking and df requires more tactical thinking right movement in the battlefield e.t.c. If u put along crowded battles and consider that there are things like friendly fire and the fact for example a rogue cant run inside his opponents body to get to his back like it happens in wow (ridiculus) and in DF u cant !( body collision) seems Df 's combat wins cause its more tactical more realistic combat and more fun . Not to mention u wont see mages jumping ridiculusly and launching instant spells (lol) cause in df jumping costs stamina.
Not to mention archery and casting spells will also needs aiming.
Please for gawd's sake proof read what you write before you post. That wall of gibberish gave me a headache.
Keep believing that the combat is so deep in DF, time will tell all.............
Proof?
.. i suggest u go and read what betatesters saying on their previews concerning melee combat skilkls, in 25 , 50 ,75 ,and 100 rank of each mellee skil and sheild u r getting special moves like sheild bash and many others .....
As for the headache go take an aspirin
Please for gawd's sake proof read what you write before you post. That wall of gibberish gave me a headache.
Keep believing that the combat is so deep in DF, time will tell all.............
Facts dont change, and fact is active blocking instead of passive and position based striking instead of targeted means more tactical manouvering for the player.
-Darkstar
this point is extremely moot due to the fact that every casting class in WoW with an incredibly long but extremely powerful spell has some sort of supplemental instant cast 2-3 minute cooldown buff(not as long as you think)that grants instant cast abilities. not to mention most of them have spell hasting buffs, maybe with the exception of the priest and warlock.
and also, of course "no one is going to let you stand still because you will get stunned." thats how every MMO is...wow is basic rock paper scissors. you know how fast mages can destroy rogues because of unproportional health and damage values? theres barely any REAL mitigation to spell damage so if a mage/lock/priest can get some jump or have all his cooldowns up he has an incredibly high chance of literally destroying whoever he faces. on the flipside, the other melee classes are just as capable of extremely high damage output but this is limited due to snares and all that jazz.
I think he was referring to the beta combat videos that show nothing but one click, circle-jerk. I also would like to believe that combat is a bit more in depth, but leakers still say that blocking does not work well enough to be used in combat. I don't see why players are forced to grind to unlock all the skills. It would help immensely if players had at least 2 skill choices in the beginning, and could grind to unlock more.
It's sort of a half-and-half, I would say.
Archery, for example, does take fps-style aiming You have to calculate the arc and distance quickly, and it is quite fun.
Melee combat is very easy and simplistic. 'It's like a knife fight in counter-strike', as someone else here said. There are currently only 3 skills per weapon, all being the same, with only 1 of them working. It comes down to who can run in circles the best without getting bandwidth- or graphical-lag. Last week they input some damage modifiers and delay to various weapons. Given they are brand new to the game, they are constantly tweaked. The difference is not substantial.
Block is currently useless in pvp. In pve, it just reduces some damage; moreso if you have a shield. You don't actually 'block' the attack.
Magic spells are slow, buggy, and inefficient. Yes, talking about endgame lines as well. They are all easy to dodge, even with the big hit-area. Buffs will be surpreme to debuffs. The damage is currently mediocre, especially given the investment.
Assuming many different skills aren't added to melee, I have a feeling everyone is going to have the same skillset, more or less, + or - a few things.
In the example the OP used, games like WoW or EQ2 will have more situational things to think about and that is where the 'skill' comes in - i.e. the fast thinking. In DF, the only thing your ever thinking about in battle is A. how many potions do I have? and B. what is the fastest way to switch weapons, trigger a spell, desheath, etc through this clunky interface?
I'm going to assume that you haven't EVER played WoW then. Rogues are caster KILLERS! They are designed for DESTROYING spellcasters. In fact, Rogues are adept at killing most classes, with exception of the plate wearers. Each class depending on how you spec has the potential to be strong against certain other classes. It is not the class itself, although granted, some classes are stronger slightly naturally against others.
WoW is not just about rotation, you might charge someone as a warrior, it does NOT mean you will get a hamstring off, if you charge a pally, he might bubble, and so the tables turn. or the warlock might deathcoil you at the same time. So then what? YOu have to watch, anticipate and guess. If you think a lock IS going to cast DC at you, then you better have your sword and shield ready for a quick spell reflect.
Also, if Darkfall has 7 attacks, how do you program them onto 3(or 2) mouse buttons? Or does it become the dreaded button masher that is so taboo. And
It's almost 2010, and I am just not wiling to tolerate clunky graphics while being told that "gameplay is more important than graphics". That excuse won't wash with me any more. I expect my games to have both good graphics and good gameplay.
-Quote Isoke(VN boards)
The difference in my opinion is that there is an extra facet to combat in comparison to auto target games. You still need select when to use a skill, what skill to use and initiate the attack as in normal auto target games but in addition you also have to aim the attack.
This has a multiplier effect on the whole level of skill required in order to defeat an opponant who is also doing the same and trying to evade your attacks at the same.
Quite simply its a lot more information for your brain to process and adds an extra level of complexity to the task.
"Also, if Darkfall has 7 attacks, how do you program them onto 3(or 2) mouse buttons?" - I'm not sure about melee but with magic skills you preload the spell using a hot key and then click to release, I suppose it's kind of like selecting different weapons in a fps if your not using a mouse wheel.