This post is a bunch of crap. Rogues are one of the most dominant classes in the game, yet everyone who plays one cries about them all the time. Reroll if you're that unhappy.
WOW, i never really looked at it that way before, your in depth and intelligent analysis has just blown my mind and i think i may never see the game in the same light again. If only i had just thought this way before posting such a pointless thread to start with i could have saved so many people so much time in having to post in it.
There may have been a touch of sarcasm in the above paragraph, please take it as being totally intentional.
You obviously can't accept the fact that the game is for the most part balanced. You can take as many shots at me as you want, I'm not the one whining about a class just because its no longer overpowered.
Originally posted by Gemma You obviously can't accept the fact that the game is for the most part balanced. You can take as many shots at me as you want, I'm not the one whining about a class just because its no longer overpowered.
Is that why they're doing major revamps of classes yet again? Seems they make the rounds every 6 months or so and significant changes are left in their wake.
If the game was "for the most part balanced," they wouldn't need to make any changes at all.
Originally posted by Gemma You obviously can't accept the fact that the game is for the most part balanced. You can take as many shots at me as you want, I'm not the one whining about a class just because its no longer overpowered.
...and if you had taken some time to actually read the posts on this thread then you would see that it isn't about whether rogues are over/underpowered, it is actually about the general usage or not of rogues across the whole spectrum of the WOW gaming experience. Again, if you had taken time to actually read through this thread then you would have seen that players of varying experience have some of the same concerns where as others don't, but then that it the spirit of a debate and exchange of ideas which you may have missed with your own streamlined debating style.
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
For starters, I don't know why people are saying that mobile fights hurt rogues. They used to, if they were assassination, as mutilate had to be used from behind. That has been removed. The talent in subtlety that granted more damage from behind now just grants more damage. All melee DPS benefit from getting behind the target to avoid being parried.
Anyway, the reason I see rogue numbers dropping is the rebalancing within the class. Combat swords used to be the best DPS spec for rogues and was basically a one-button spam spec, just like BM hunters and SB warlocks were. Now mutilate and HAT builds are producing better DPS and they, especially mutilate, take a lot more skill to play. You can't go for an incredibly easy spec and produce insane DPS any more and some people just can't handle that.
Another factor, and this goes for warlocks too, is that death knights appeal to people for a lot of the same reasons that rogues do. Many rogue/warlock players picked those classes to be the bad guy. The death knight is a bad guy and has plate armour, a pet, big two-handed weapons and his own private clubhouse. I reckon that if you did a poll of people who switched to DKs from their previous mains, rogues and warlocks would top the charts.
Originally posted by Gemma You obviously can't accept the fact that the game is for the most part balanced. You can take as many shots at me as you want, I'm not the one whining about a class just because its no longer overpowered.
Is that why they're doing major revamps of classes yet again? Seems they make the rounds every 6 months or so and significant changes are left in their wake.
If the game was "for the most part balanced," they wouldn't need to make any changes at all.
The game isn't balanced in every aspect, and it probably never will be. Its extremely difficult to fine tune classes to be effective in pve and then be balanced pvp. If you had played WoW since the beginning, you would know that each class had a specific patch directed to "fixing" their class, back in vanilla wow. But blizzard realizing they need to keep things interesting decided to add new talents each new expansion, with the addition of 10 new levels, and 10 new talent points. And why not? It keeps the game fun for a lot of people.
Things may not be balanced now, but every WoW player was excited for the new talents in 3.0. Blizz will tweak and balance the game just like they did when TBC came out (remember druids being able to tank everything AND be top on the dmg meter...).
Midnight-ShadowWorld of Warcraft CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 88
rogues are indeed about a hell of a lot, but 99% of them are twinks or just do PvP at level 80. there are no PvE rogues around anymore, thats the point of this thread. in my realm I know of 2 PvE rogues, on a server with 9000 players, there are 2 rogues doing any raiding.
gnome rogues are like vermin, always sprouting everywhere, and a total niusance. players don't realise that you can't just buttom smash with rogues anymore, it takes skill, and people see this and think "fuck this" and move to an "easier" class. its quite pathetic.
players don't realise that you can't just buttom smash with rogues anymore, it takes skill, and people see this and think "fuck this" and move to an "easier" class. its quite pathetic.
This is exactly what I am talking about, you just state it better .
You obviously can't accept the fact that the game is for the most part balanced. You can take as many shots at me as you want, I'm not the one whining about a class just because its no longer overpowered.
...and if you had taken some time to actually read the posts on this thread then you would see that it isn't about whether rogues are over/underpowered, it is actually about the general usage or not of rogues across the whole spectrum of the WOW gaming experience. Again, if you had taken time to actually read through this thread then you would have seen that players of varying experience have some of the same concerns where as others don't, but then that it the spirit of a debate and exchange of ideas which you may have missed with your own streamlined debating style.
And it seems like all you know how to do is harass people. I did read the thread and I find it more of a QQ thread than any sort of civilized debate.
Originally posted by Gemma You obviously can't accept the fact that the game is for the most part balanced. You can take as many shots at me as you want, I'm not the one whining about a class just because its no longer overpowered.
Is that why they're doing major revamps of classes yet again? Seems they make the rounds every 6 months or so and significant changes are left in their wake.
If the game was "for the most part balanced," they wouldn't need to make any changes at all.
Triple posting, but anyways... That's why I said for the most part. It can't ever be 100% balanced because of the players. Developers will add in features that make sense, but players will abuse them, and then they get nerfed and you now have balance. Take the Priest spell "Circle of Healing". Priests used to spam it like crazy because it was amazing, but it was nerfed now and priest healing was returned back to the level it should have been in the first place. It's expected that there will upset people, but to say a class is forgotten because they aren't getting what they want is a little ridiculous. Like I quoted two posts ago, rogues seem to be upset because they can't spam one button anymore.
players don't realise that you can't just buttom smash with rogues anymore, it takes skill, and people see this and think "fuck this" and move to an "easier" class. its quite pathetic.
This is exactly what I am talking about, you just state it better .
And again, this post isn't about whether a rogue can take on people in PvP or whether the "button smashing" has been nerfed. All classes at some point have been taken over by the 'console' generation that want a simple character to play, rogues aren't the only ones, Pallys, Hunters, Warriors have all been through the same cycle, but that is not what this is about.
If you have played a Rogue for a long time like i have then you will have seen the decline in a rogues usefulness across the board. It isn't about whether i can sneak up on someone and kill them without them moving an inch, it is about my contribution to a group and how some now see that. I don't mind nerfs, underpowering, snipes about how we can lock too much, but what i hate is when we are seen as 'useless' by groups because of the tweaks made.
As for the whole balance thing, that is the nature of MMO's unfortunately. It has nothing to do with people 'taking advantage' of changes that are made and then they have to be nerfed, it is just that some changes may work well when tested by a particular group of people on a test server but when you put it out to the general population you get a different dynamic and it may cause a slight imbalance in some way and it is back to the drawing board. Games like these are always in a state of flux as there are so many factors to be taken into account that little tweaks will always need to be made.
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
In my opinion, the problem here is not that rogues are underpowered or useless for PvE, it's only that other classes perceive them as such. People are unwilling to bring rogues along in dungeon or raid because of the fact that rogues can no longer one-button mash and top the DPS charts. People don't realize that a good rogue still does good DPS, or maybe just don't bother because there's so many idiots out there that can't play their class. FFS, I'm still combat sword specced (low 70s) wielding a pair of greens and I can keep up with everyone who's not in old T5/6 gear.
Midnight-ShadowWorld of Warcraft CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 88
coupled with this, most rogues either ninja pull (either from not realising that they can sometimes be seen in stealth, or they are just twats) or try and tank elites in instances. if they survive a fight like this (from the healer spamming heals on them) they think "wow I'm so imba I can tank" and do it more often. groups see this and think "I'm not grouping with a rogue ever again".
on my rogue, now level 20, I got in a group for DM, we were about to start when the leader suddenly kicked me. I asked him why and he said he was taking someone else. the other person was the same level as me and probably did the same amount of damage. this situation is happening more and more often
the ones that don't realize they can be seen in stealth ARE the twats... soon as you stealth the sentry types get a giant glowing eye over their heads. it's obvious from miles away.
If you fail in any PvP as a rogue you should really have a think about your skills and step up your gameplay. And the only thing those stupid statistics show is what classes is the easiest to play. SL/SL locks in TBC anyone, took lot of skill to play... not.
Spoils of War - The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it.
Comments
WOW, i never really looked at it that way before, your in depth and intelligent analysis has just blown my mind and i think i may never see the game in the same light again. If only i had just thought this way before posting such a pointless thread to start with i could have saved so many people so much time in having to post in it.
There may have been a touch of sarcasm in the above paragraph, please take it as being totally intentional.
You obviously can't accept the fact that the game is for the most part balanced. You can take as many shots at me as you want, I'm not the one whining about a class just because its no longer overpowered.
Do you know for certain?
Is that why they're doing major revamps of classes yet again? Seems they make the rounds every 6 months or so and significant changes are left in their wake.
If the game was "for the most part balanced," they wouldn't need to make any changes at all.
...and if you had taken some time to actually read the posts on this thread then you would see that it isn't about whether rogues are over/underpowered, it is actually about the general usage or not of rogues across the whole spectrum of the WOW gaming experience. Again, if you had taken time to actually read through this thread then you would have seen that players of varying experience have some of the same concerns where as others don't, but then that it the spirit of a debate and exchange of ideas which you may have missed with your own streamlined debating style.
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
For starters, I don't know why people are saying that mobile fights hurt rogues. They used to, if they were assassination, as mutilate had to be used from behind. That has been removed. The talent in subtlety that granted more damage from behind now just grants more damage. All melee DPS benefit from getting behind the target to avoid being parried.
Anyway, the reason I see rogue numbers dropping is the rebalancing within the class. Combat swords used to be the best DPS spec for rogues and was basically a one-button spam spec, just like BM hunters and SB warlocks were. Now mutilate and HAT builds are producing better DPS and they, especially mutilate, take a lot more skill to play. You can't go for an incredibly easy spec and produce insane DPS any more and some people just can't handle that.
Another factor, and this goes for warlocks too, is that death knights appeal to people for a lot of the same reasons that rogues do. Many rogue/warlock players picked those classes to be the bad guy. The death knight is a bad guy and has plate armour, a pet, big two-handed weapons and his own private clubhouse. I reckon that if you did a poll of people who switched to DKs from their previous mains, rogues and warlocks would top the charts.
Is that why they're doing major revamps of classes yet again? Seems they make the rounds every 6 months or so and significant changes are left in their wake.
If the game was "for the most part balanced," they wouldn't need to make any changes at all.
The game isn't balanced in every aspect, and it probably never will be. Its extremely difficult to fine tune classes to be effective in pve and then be balanced pvp. If you had played WoW since the beginning, you would know that each class had a specific patch directed to "fixing" their class, back in vanilla wow. But blizzard realizing they need to keep things interesting decided to add new talents each new expansion, with the addition of 10 new levels, and 10 new talent points. And why not? It keeps the game fun for a lot of people.
Things may not be balanced now, but every WoW player was excited for the new talents in 3.0. Blizz will tweak and balance the game just like they did when TBC came out (remember druids being able to tank everything AND be top on the dmg meter...).
rogues are indeed about a hell of a lot, but 99% of them are twinks or just do PvP at level 80. there are no PvE rogues around anymore, thats the point of this thread. in my realm I know of 2 PvE rogues, on a server with 9000 players, there are 2 rogues doing any raiding.
gnome rogues are like vermin, always sprouting everywhere, and a total niusance. players don't realise that you can't just buttom smash with rogues anymore, it takes skill, and people see this and think "fuck this" and move to an "easier" class. its quite pathetic.
/end rant
This is exactly what I am talking about, you just state it better
.
Do you know for certain?
...and if you had taken some time to actually read the posts on this thread then you would see that it isn't about whether rogues are over/underpowered, it is actually about the general usage or not of rogues across the whole spectrum of the WOW gaming experience. Again, if you had taken time to actually read through this thread then you would have seen that players of varying experience have some of the same concerns where as others don't, but then that it the spirit of a debate and exchange of ideas which you may have missed with your own streamlined debating style.
And it seems like all you know how to do is harass people. I did read the thread and I find it more of a QQ thread than any sort of civilized debate.
Do you know for certain?
Is that why they're doing major revamps of classes yet again? Seems they make the rounds every 6 months or so and significant changes are left in their wake.
If the game was "for the most part balanced," they wouldn't need to make any changes at all.
Triple posting, but anyways... That's why I said for the most part. It can't ever be 100% balanced because of the players. Developers will add in features that make sense, but players will abuse them, and then they get nerfed and you now have balance. Take the Priest spell "Circle of Healing". Priests used to spam it like crazy because it was amazing, but it was nerfed now and priest healing was returned back to the level it should have been in the first place. It's expected that there will upset people, but to say a class is forgotten because they aren't getting what they want is a little ridiculous. Like I quoted two posts ago, rogues seem to be upset because they can't spam one button anymore.
Do you know for certain?
And again, this post isn't about whether a rogue can take on people in PvP or whether the "button smashing" has been nerfed. All classes at some point have been taken over by the 'console' generation that want a simple character to play, rogues aren't the only ones, Pallys, Hunters, Warriors have all been through the same cycle, but that is not what this is about.
If you have played a Rogue for a long time like i have then you will have seen the decline in a rogues usefulness across the board. It isn't about whether i can sneak up on someone and kill them without them moving an inch, it is about my contribution to a group and how some now see that. I don't mind nerfs, underpowering, snipes about how we can lock too much, but what i hate is when we are seen as 'useless' by groups because of the tweaks made.
As for the whole balance thing, that is the nature of MMO's unfortunately. It has nothing to do with people 'taking advantage' of changes that are made and then they have to be nerfed, it is just that some changes may work well when tested by a particular group of people on a test server but when you put it out to the general population you get a different dynamic and it may cause a slight imbalance in some way and it is back to the drawing board. Games like these are always in a state of flux as there are so many factors to be taken into account that little tweaks will always need to be made.
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
In my opinion, the problem here is not that rogues are underpowered or useless for PvE, it's only that other classes perceive them as such. People are unwilling to bring rogues along in dungeon or raid because of the fact that rogues can no longer one-button mash and top the DPS charts. People don't realize that a good rogue still does good DPS, or maybe just don't bother because there's so many idiots out there that can't play their class. FFS, I'm still combat sword specced (low 70s) wielding a pair of greens and I can keep up with everyone who's not in old T5/6 gear.
coupled with this, most rogues either ninja pull (either from not realising that they can sometimes be seen in stealth, or they are just twats) or try and tank elites in instances. if they survive a fight like this (from the healer spamming heals on them) they think "wow I'm so imba I can tank" and do it more often. groups see this and think "I'm not grouping with a rogue ever again".
on my rogue, now level 20, I got in a group for DM, we were about to start when the leader suddenly kicked me. I asked him why and he said he was taking someone else. the other person was the same level as me and probably did the same amount of damage. this situation is happening more and more often
the ones that don't realize they can be seen in stealth ARE the twats... soon as you stealth the sentry types get a giant glowing eye over their heads. it's obvious from miles away.
If you fail in any PvP as a rogue you should really have a think about your skills and step up your gameplay. And the only thing those stupid statistics show is what classes is the easiest to play. SL/SL locks in TBC anyone, took lot of skill to play... not.
Spoils of War - The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it.