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General: Voon Debate: PvP vs. PvE
Stradden
Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696
On Wednesday, MMORPG.com's own Jon Wood takes part in a Voon debate between PvE and PvP. Our own Managing Editor will be making the case for Player vs player action.
In this world of Massively Multiplayer Online games, there is one topic which continues to cause many discussions around the world. Player vs. Player or Player vs. Environment. Which one promotes more immersion? Is there one that caters to more role-playing opportunities? Is the social aspect of an MMO jeopardized by allowing PvP content?
Join us on Wednesday, February 18, 2009, at 1:00pm EST when Jon “Stradden” Wood, Managing Editor at MMORPG.com, and Staci “Rosethorne” Krause, Editorial Manager at IGN Vault Network, draw a line in the sand and dig their heels in to present their sides of this debate. Questions from the audience will be accepted during the live Q&A portion of the event.
Can’t attend the live debate? Don’t worry! Send us your question(s) in advance for consideration, and then visit the replay in Voon! For a limited time, we’ll be rebroadcasting this event daily at 10pm EST. Details can be found at http://voon.vivox.com.
Check out Voon!
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
You guys aren't going to be jumping on the voon bandwagon like your competition, are you?
I'll wait for transcripts.
*shrug* thought we'd at least give it a try. It's good to ahve a lot of tools in the 'ol toolbox.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Personally I don't see the conflict, both are needed for a successful MMO although some like Lotro have just a fasimile of it . Full pvp games without pve have flopped. Problem with pvp is usually the implementation of it.
I think a better discussion would be the manner of the pvp, full loot, consequences, how skills and equipment effect it, etc.
Because of the unsuccessful nature of games without a pve element and the less than stellar success of those without pvp, I think any developer is going to include both to cover all bases in their product.
Making pve challenging enough to replace pvp is not going to happen any time soon, the technology limits how elaborate the pve AI is at the present time although that could change in the next decade.
Myself, I don't think much of the pvp offered in any of the current MMO's, including Eve which probably has the best pvp that I have experienced at the moment. The funny thing is, the original UO had better pvp than most of the current games today. That in itself, is a very sad fact.
*shrug* thought we'd at least give it a try. It's good to ahve a lot of tools in the 'ol toolbox.
Silly Jon /bonk!
Seriously though, trying new things is never a bad idea, but regardless of my dislike for voon in particular, forcing people to navigate away from your site in order to gain access to content isn't a good thing.
If you want to delve into the world of audio internet journalism, then there's nothing wrong with a good old-fashioned podcast. That way you avoid the need for your potential listeners to leave the site, go through the hassle of registering an account elsewhere, and forcing them to be online at a certain time (or times) in order to hear your content.
We've had podcasts in the past, they didn't work out.
This isn't just your standard podcast type of situation, it's a debate between two editors of competing websites. Not exactly something we can do on anything but "neutral turf", and Voon provides that opportunity.
I'm well aware of journalish 101 and I've also got a bit of experience with this whole "running a new site" thing. The folks at Voon asked me to participate in this debate, and I agreed, this does not mark a radical shift in our current policies.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Missed the broadcast.
Jon's got a good familaiirty with a ton of MMOs and he's seen things from both the player side and the developer side, so I'm anxious to read the transcripts of this.
Darwa, axlotls rock.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
There actually is no written transcript from us, but we are replaying the broadcast in Voon nightly at 10pm EST. No idea if MMORPG.com will provide a transcript, though.
Jon and Staci both did a great job, it was a lot of fun. I hope we can do this again some time!
Maggie "AutumnKiss" Olsen
Community Manager
Vivox, Inc.
Community Manager, Vivox, Inc.
There actually is no written transcript from us, but we are replaying the broadcast in Voon nightly at 10pm EST. No idea if MMORPG.com will provide a transcript, though.
Jon and Staci both did a great job, it was a lot of fun. I hope we can do this again some time!
Maggie "AutumnKiss" Olsen
Community Manager
Vivox, Inc.
10pm EST is 3am for me.
I think this illuminates my point.
Not necessarily, Darwa. Simply because I choose a specific time to rebroadcast the recording does not mean that Jon or his counterpart, Staci, will choose different times. They will be receiving the recording from me today to put up on their respective sites should they decide to do so.
If I played the rebroadcast at 10pm your time, that would be the middle of the work day for others. We are unable to please everyone all of the time, I simply do my best to meet the needs of as many as possible. If you do not fit in that category, I am very sorry. As much as all of us in this industry try to work with timezones around the globe, it is impossible to make it perfect for everyone.
That being said, I can certainly do another broadcast earlier in the day for other folks like you. All it takes is a quick flick of my wrist and a bribe to my operations team. How about 3pm EST? Is that more convenient for you?
Community Manager, Vivox, Inc.
You're missing my point entirely, Autumnkiss.
Why would someone want to register for voon and need to be online at a certain time, when they could simply download a podcast?
Even if you wanted to explore the 'neutral turf' explanation, that could easily be accomplished with Ventrilo, Teamspeak, or any other number of VOIP programs that don't require registration.
I'm failing to see the benefit of voon.
Ultima Online PvP was good in that everyone was on equal footing. it all came down to how you specc'd yer skill, the craftable gears, and most importantly player skill because of the equal footing.
Now a days for PvP MMOs there are so many classes that it causes so many class balance issue. you'll always have a Over Powered class.
But yeah, I missed the days of UO PvP todays MMO PvP pales in comparison to it.
Believe it or not, there is a difference psychologically between watching/listening to something either live or with other people, rather than doing it alone. This does not mean that everybody is affected by said difference, but it is there for many.
That is why people go to concerts rather than watch a video of it. It's to "feel" the energy and emotion even though, no matter what, you're still going to be hearing the same music and you won't be as hot as you would if you were in a cramped up auditorium with 3,000 other people.
Watching something on your own accord rather than someone else's is much more comforting to the average human being because as we are raised, we are raised to follow like sheep. Doing something on someone else's accord can make people feel as though they're accomplishing something, whereas they may feel that they can be lazy with the same project or task if they are doing it for themselves due to not having any authority above them.
It's all a placebo or nocebo effect, whichever way it affects you. That's all.
I'm in complete agreement with your sentiment, but I think you missed my point as well.
After spending the last few years working with artificial intelligence, I'm currently retraining as a counselling psychologist, so I'm well aware of all this
To use your analogy, why would I want to watch a video of a live recording that I can only watch at certain times on a specific television, instead of having a video of the live recording that I can watch any time on any television?
As Tekkaman said, it's about engaging in an activity with others, rather than alone. You can definitely download a pre-recorded cast and listen to it in the relative solitary confinement of your basement, office, or bedroom... wherever your computer may be. But what about discussing a topic with others in a live environment?
While we were doing this live event, the tone, inflection and general flow of conversation was much nicer than a typical text chat. Jon and Staci could have very well prepared their answers in advance, written them down, and pasted them into some chat window. Or we could have done a recording in private, with multiple takes to get it right, and then put the cast out there for people to listen to after it was "perfect".
What Voon allowed us to do, however, was bring people together from separate geographic locations and engage in a conversation with each other as if we were all in the same room, and anyone who wanted to could join in to listen and talk with each other after the presentation was over. No need for passwords or server information or permission to use it. You just go to the site, download, register, and log in. Anything that is not behind a private password protection is available for the average person to join in to. Live or pre-recorded.
Voon provides large-scale auditorium-style voice capabilities to anyone and everyone who wants to use it, for free. We are not positioning ourselves as a competitor of Teamspeak or Ventrilo, and I will not engage in a debate of "us vs. them".
The bottom line? Voon is a great tool for many venues. Developer chats are more vibrant and engaging in voice rather than the old standby of IRC. Podcasts are recorded before a live audience in Voon, and then replayed both on that site and in Voon afterward. One guy schedules discussions for his followers on Twitter. Not even a gamer... just a random person who thought it was a great way to bring people together.
Community Manager, Vivox, Inc.
I'm not remotely questioning the preferences between live and recorded. Not at all.
I'll only ask this one last time, before I grin and walk away.
Why would someone to register and be online at a specific time to listen to something instead of downloading it and having it available when they want?
Why would you meet up with friends at a specific time at a bar or restaurant for drinks/dinner/conversation, when you can just go there by yourself any time you want without them? Or why would you go to the movies at the local theatre when you can just wait for it to come out on DVD?
It's about doing something with others, in a real-time setting, rather than going about it by yourself. But you can record any audio you hear in Voon (recording is client-side), so you can have available any time you want if you record it.
You're asking the same question over and over, and getting the same answer phrased differently. You just don't agree with the response... or maybe what you're asking is not what you are really seeking the answer to?
(Edited to fix and add!)
Community Manager, Vivox, Inc.
Why would you meet up with friends at a specific time at a bar or restaurant for drinks/dinner/conversation, when you can just go there by yourself any time you want without them? Or why would you go to the movies at the local theatre when you can just wait for it to come out on DVD?
It's about doing something with others, in a real-time setting, rather than going about it by yourself. But you can record any audio you hear in Voon (recording is client-side), so you can have available any time you want if you record it.
You're asking the same question over and over, and getting the same answer phrased differently. You just don't agree with the response... or maybe what you're asking is not what you are really seeking the answer to?
(Edited to fix and add!)
So Jon and Staci will be on there tonight if I tuned in to the conversation, and we can interact with the recording? Is that what you're saying?
Failing that, then all you're offering is a recording, and I don't understand why someone would choose to register and be forced into a timeslot as oppose to downloading a podcast. Video killed the radio star, and not the other way around, remember?
I'm not having a go at you (in fact, the way you helped with my gmail issue left a positive mark in my book), nor have I mentioned why I don't like voon. You say I'm getting the same answers rephrased, so allow me to phrase my question using the simplest form of English that I can manage.
Forgive the caps, but I'm willing to try anything at this point
THIS IS ABOUT THE REPLAY(S) AND NOT THE LIVE EVENT
Why would someone want to register and 'tune in' at a set time instead of being able to listen to the recording whenever they like?
Well, Darwa... up to this point I thought your question was "Why invite people to join a live event in Voon at a specific time rather than let them wait for the recording to be available for download", not about the replays after the fact.
So let me now provide you with the simplest information I can.
Voon provides recording capabilities, but that is not its target goal or purpose. The target goal and purpose is to provide live, large-scale audio capabilities in an auditorium-style setting.
The replays after the fact are a courtesy to people who were unable to make the live recording. They are by no means exclusive to Voon (at least, at this point). All recordings being replayed in Voon right now are found in other places (the sites that originally recorded the material), with the exception of yesterday's debate... which I say only because I do not as of right now know if Jon or Staci have published a link from their sites to a hosted download of the recording, which I emailed to them both earlier today.
This answer seems unfinished to me, but only because I tend to get rather wordy sometimes... so I'm sitting on my hands now!
Community Manager, Vivox, Inc.
Vivox did well in appointing you, AutumnKiss. You are clearly very eloquent and your calming demeanour shows through even here
Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. With hindsight, we should probably have had our little tête-à-tête on voon and replayed it at set times
Haha! I lol'd at my desk! Thanks for your kind words... and thanks for the discussion!
Community Manager, Vivox, Inc.
After reading the initial argument on the front page I have to say both of you make great points. I for one, enjoy pvp more. If I wanted a pve game I'd go buy a PS3 or Xbox, get a better storyline and some movie clips in between to immerse me into the story more. That being said I think for a game to thrive it needs a bit of both.
There is a HUGE desire for a good pvp game on the market. This can be shown by many of the games including the 600 lb gorilla WOW having a large amount of choices to pvp. I really don't think the argument should be which is more necessary but why can't companies find a balance between the two and make both enjoyable?
Safe zones are a not a necessity, but in my opinion are highly recommended in a game. There are times when even I don't feel like pvp'n and I just want to be social.
The same gear,resources, loot that drop in pve zones should drop off players or be found in pvp areas as well. Enough with the one or the other, the drops should be equalized. WaRhammer is a good example for this. We were promised to get the best gear off PvP but only by running a PVE Instance can you truly get the best gear. PvP'rs hate to be forced to do PvE.
At the same time, PvE'rs should not be excluded from getting the best stuff in game because they don't pvp.
I really think a game should be built from the ground up on pvp balance and the pve should be molded to fit that design. For some reason, developers cannot seem to do this very thing. When they understand and listen to players more about IWin buttons, CC issues, and stop making items that are incredible in power instead of just another way to customize your character then maybe we'll get that balance. Look at WoW, half the time people are chasing these silly mounts like bears and ostriches that do nothing to further the power of your character or affect pvp at all. You don't need to make items powerful for people to want them. Greed will take care of that for you.
I really think DaoC had the right idea on building a game that could cater to both crowds but somehow lost the concept in a need to overemphasize loot and try to capture more of the pve crowd.
Give me DaoC's mechanics and RvR , WAR's character design, CoH's character customization, WoW's stability, EvE's economy and skill training system(with the timer reduced to realistic settings) , and a world design/layout like LotR and I've found my perfect game.