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Character skill versus Player Skill: Which do you prefer?
Ihmotepp
Member Posts: 14,495
What do you prefer in an MMORGP? Character skil or player skill?
Character skill means that your character determines what you can do in the game. Player skill means the player determines what you can do in the game.
For example, in a player skill game I could play a character for a long time, reach max level, then give the character to someone that had hardly played the game, and they would still not be able to accomplish much.
And vice a versa. In a Character Skill game, I could give a character that is close to maxed out to a person that had not played the game much, but they would still be able to accomplish a lot because the character would make the difference not the person playing the character.
Here's a Darkfall video from Dread OG:
I think he's right, this game will allow you to use player skill, jumping and turning to shoot, bunny hopping, and stuff like that.
Whereas in a game like DAoC it's not about you the player jumping, turning, bunny hopping, etc., it's about what your character can do.
I'm not saying one is better than the other, just asking what you prefer in your MMORPG?
Obviously there's no choice in a FPS game, it's all about player skill.
Comments
Player skill, aka twitch-based, games I find always degrade down to circle strafeing and repetitive left clicking, which gets real old real fast for me.
Much prefer character skill, where you have to think about what skills you want to use in a fight and develop more of a plan. Not to mention I probably won't kill my wrists with the constant clicking. DAoC did an excellent job at a character skill game.
both, you dont need a twitch based game to have "player skill". You can have player skill in any game, i find that character skill reflects player skill, as it takes a player's skill to choose which character skills to give his character.
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Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
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Simply put, unless there's virtual reality system where my action in the real world is translated to the game world or where my thoughts are linked to a system where it can translate that into character movement, I will stay with character skills.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
theres already a whole genre of games dedicated to player skill ... the FPS if people want thier ping and mouse skills to be the ulitmate factor then by all means go play counterstrike or something.
RPGs are about character skill, not how fast he can run around in circles. the FPS crowd has done more to hurt MMORPG combat than help. You use to be able to get into good tactical fights split second decisions on what skill to us. Now most MMO combat boils down to who has the largest keymapping area who can circle the fastest while jamming on 1 to 3 skills.
I think the character should be an extention of the player, so the character determines what you can do and its relative strength but the player ultimately determines whether an action is successful or not and how effective it is.
I like having stats to adjust and abilities to customize but do not think you should be able to win by virtue of how powerful your character is, a poorly played character should lose no matter what level/skill level it is.
I also like to be in control of my character, so I do not like auto-attack much or passive rolls to dodge/parry and crit, instead I would prefer someway to trigger it myself, because when too many things are random it lessens my tactical control.
So I would prefer if players physical skills mattered more but also if players had more control over the tactical aspects of their characters and didn't make it so automated/random. While still maintaining creative control over my characters abilities that is.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
I think you don't understand. Some games require mad skills, and if you got them you're just like Tiger Woods.
If you watch that video you will see what I'm talking about around 1:51.
In my opinion both definitions are wrong.
Player skill is relative in both systems, everyone can control a character in a game like Gears of War or Call of Duty, judge this as "skill" is almost offensive.
With pratice a player can be better in real time combat, with pratice and strategy a player can be better in strategic combat.
The definition would be Strategic combat versus real time Reflex combat.
Strategic combat can be more deep, real time combat can be exciting, but in the end, a fast pc/controls/connection can be much more decisive than what you call skill.
In classic eletronic RPG the strategic combat will be a mix of your "skill" with your character development as you are in a roleplaying game, but in both mechanics the player alone will not always be totally responsible for the results.
Note: bunny hopping destroy the immersion of any kind of game in my opinion.
...
no offense but that is a very retarded statement and I see a lot of people throw that around as if it's a fact.
the real fact is their is a lot of skill involved in a FPS game. Positioning, movement and timing are the three large ones that are severly lacking in MMORPGS today. they exist to a extent but take a back seat to character skill.
you sir nailed it, and get and deserve a medal.
I value player skill. Not just the movements but a game that requires actual strategy instead of just the time it take to train a character. I do not respect someone in combat for spending a long time leveling an account, I do however respect someone who is good at any level. Actually one of my favorite things to do on a game is take a low level character and have them kill much higher levels characters because it is more entertaining, challenging and unexpected.
We're not necessarily talking about PvP. This could also be a primarily PvE game. So "respecting someone in combat" would have nothing to do with whether you prefer player skills or character skills.
We're not necessarily talking about PvP. This could also be a primarily PvE game. So "respecting someone in combat" would have nothing to do with whether you prefer player skills or character skills.
I have no interest in a pve game .. so that would not apply to me, I would much rather a game I can level solely on players and never have to hit a monsterbot or npc ever
The in game skills should be challenging to players, not characters as well. They should make you have to actually use your brain to accomplish them rather than just go through the motions.
I want about 60% skill and 40% depending on character skills and gear.
Maybe a bit more player skill for a PvP only game and a bit less for a PvE only.
Each MMO have their part of Character and Player Skill. In DAoC you can have the best gear but if your too retarted to use it your dead. I saw a lot of not well geared people like my friend Yshano when he was playing his BM holding 3 to 5 Stealther and beat them one after another. If you don't call that player skills you have a problem. The problem with player skills game is you really need to understand your environment and what your toon can do and analyse eeach situation in a second. I never played WoW bcause of that. There is not really players skills until max level and i saw a lot of noob pwning people becuase the were well geared. I'm actually a manager of a professional counter-strike source team and let me tell you that information. You don't need to play 24/7 to be the best. Just have to be in a good mood, be positive and learn from your lesson and and your brain will do the rest for you.
My 2 Cent
PS: Sorry fo my english i'm french
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I think you don't understand. Some games require mad skills, and if you got them you're just like Tiger Woods.
If you watch that video you will see what I'm talking about around 1:51.
@ that .. that guy needs to seriously get out and get some air and work on talking to people in person ... NEEDS some serious work on his verbal communication skills as well as how to present himself. LMAO!!!
I certainly hope that kids these days do not aspire to be like him.... ROFL!!!
Lots of fapping and you aquiring shit no body cares about.
When did you start playing "old school" MMO's. World Of Warcraft?
I prefer the outcome of a battle to be determined by player skill. Meaning a player who has mastered his class, has enough "legit" PvP experience under his belt, and knows what to do and when to do it should win over some idiot who farmed/ebay gear, has a rock class to your scissors class or has a slight lvl advantage... oh and is also a 12 year old lifeless child who plays 24/7...
Being a crafty player should trump gear/lvl/class.
Anyone who wants to sit and argue that cycling skills over and over like a turn based console RPG or conforming that x class should always beat y class... well youre just a fucking tool
Granted I dont think circle strafing or jumping around should provide anyone an edge and never really have a problem killing these kind of retards... I dont consider this crap to be "player skill"
In the absence of Character skill, you have counter strike/unreal tournament. Character Skill is important for a RPG as your character is the middle man whos skills deal with the game world and system. However, in the absense of player skill, you stat vs stat combat, which is essentially randomized rock paper scissor, or rather X vs Y, the higher variable wins.
The result is that a good mmorpg needs to have both, though the player skill cannot surpass the characters built in skills and stats.
why?
why?
It should be pretty self explanitory, especially if you comprehend what is said in the post.
Role playing games are based on character growth that often use stat (variable) based progress and skills. The whole point of a rpg (genre) is that it meets certain requirements, the main being it is the character you are playing. His/her limitations are your own. A crude form of looking at this is with japanese role playing games that have turn based combat. At its most basic form, the character does all the work and just waits for input from the player. The character becomes a filter, a conduit into which you base your actions upon. Like a car on a highway, its speed and capabilities depend on whats inside it, how its made and tweaked...the highway is where you can go, usually in lines or intersecting lines.
Thus the character, as a rpg focus, is as limited as a vehicle and whats inside it. Its lore, backstory, skills, and statistical capabilities give you then the limited options.
Mixing it in with player skill, the player skill is dependant upon the character skill. Meaning, you can never be better than what the character skill allows.
Games like counterstrike or unreal tournament are not rpgs. They are categorized as first person shooters. Each character, or object i should say, is capable of the same thing. They are static. The player's skill is always the deciding factor and the characters skill is not even part of the equation or taken into consideration. Its purely based on the players input.
This is why we have genres, they categorize and lay down certain expectations. I dont know if that was clear enough, but I hope you get the jist of it.
As for a good mmorpg needing both... a mmorpg stands for massive multiplayer online role playing game. That definition alone should exlain it. Not only it a role playing game based on your character, but its dependant on character interactions (massively multiplayer), players as a sum, and thus their input is important to the over all effect of the massive multiplayer experience.
why?
It should be pretty self explanitory, especially if you comprehend what is said in the post.
Role playing games are based on character growth that often use stat (variable) based progress and skills. The whole point of a rpg (genre) is that it meets certain requirements, the main being it is the character you are playing. His/her limitations are your own. A crude form of looking at this is with japanese role playing games that have turn based combat. At its most basic form, the character does all the work and just waits for input from the player. The character becomes a filter, a conduit into which you base your actions upon. Like a car on a highway, its speed and capabilities depend on whats inside it, how its made and tweaked...the highway is where you can go, usually in lines or intersecting lines.
Thus the character, as a rpg focus, is as limited as a vehicle and whats inside it. Its lore, backstory, skills, and statistical capabilities give you then the limited options.
Mixing it in with player skill, the player skill is dependant upon the character skill. Meaning, you can never be better than what the character skill allows.
Games like counterstrike or unreal tournament are not rpgs. They are categorized as first person shooters. Each character, or object i should say, is capable of the same thing. They are static. The player's skill is always the deciding factor and the characters skill is not even part of the equation or taken into consideration. Its purely based on the players input.
This is why we have genres, they categorize and lay down certain expectations. I dont know if that was clear enough, but I hope you get the jist of it.
Fully agree with Rabenwolf here.
Character Skill and Player skill need to be equally important in an MMORPG. If you have no character skill importance, you lose one of the foundations/important aspects of the RPG component, if you get rid of the player skill, it moves to just being random dice-tosses. That works well in Tabletop RPG's where the major focus is (or for me at least should be) on the actual Roleplaying part, not on the mechanics, but is sort of boring in MMO's.
A good mixture of player skill and character skill is the right way to go IMO.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
why?
It should be pretty self explanitory, especially if you comprehend what is said in the post.
Role playing games are based on character growth that often use stat (variable) based progress and skills. The whole point of a rpg (genre) is that it meets certain requirements, the main being it is the character you are playing. His/her limitations are your own. A crude form of looking at this is with japanese role playing games that have turn based combat. At its most basic form, the character does all the work and just waits for input from the player. The character becomes a filter, a conduit into which you base your actions upon. Like a car on a highway, its speed and capabilities depend on whats inside it, how its made and tweaked...the highway is where you can go, usually in lines or intersecting lines.
Thus the character, as a rpg focus, is as limited as a vehicle and whats inside it. Its lore, backstory, skills, and statistical capabilities give you then the limited options.
Mixing it in with player skill, the player skill is dependant upon the character skill. Meaning, you can never be better than what the character skill allows.
Games like counterstrike or unreal tournament are not rpgs. They are categorized as first person shooters. Each character, or object i should say, is capable of the same thing. They are static. The player's skill is always the deciding factor and the characters skill is not even part of the equation or taken into consideration. Its purely based on the players input.
This is why we have genres, they categorize and lay down certain expectations. I dont know if that was clear enough, but I hope you get the jist of it.
As for a good mmorpg needing both... a mmorpg stands for massive multiplayer online role playing game. That definition alone should exlain it. Not only it a role playing game based on your character, but its dependant on character interactions (massively multiplayer), players as a sum, and thus their input is important to the over all effect of the massive multiplayer experience.
I think the disagreement here is whether or not roles should be defined by the developers or left up to the players. I don't need another daddy
. I do not need the preset limitations predetermined prescripted roles layed out like mommy laying your undies out for you in the morning. If anything that takes much away from the game rather than "adding to the lore". Let players create the lore themselves, which happens in the games as it is. The extremely limited choices layed out by developers limits roleplaying not enhances it. It should be left up to players to create their own player and their own players limitations. The issue here is not role playing the way they set up these games is more like they are telling you a story rather than you creating it yourself.
why?
It should be pretty self explanitory, especially if you comprehend what is said in the post.
Role playing games are based on character growth that often use stat (variable) based progress and skills. The whole point of a rpg (genre) is that it meets certain requirements, the main being it is the character you are playing. His/her limitations are your own. A crude form of looking at this is with japanese role playing games that have turn based combat. At its most basic form, the character does all the work and just waits for input from the player. The character becomes a filter, a conduit into which you base your actions upon. Like a car on a highway, its speed and capabilities depend on whats inside it, how its made and tweaked...the highway is where you can go, usually in lines or intersecting lines.
Thus the character, as a rpg focus, is as limited as a vehicle and whats inside it. Its lore, backstory, skills, and statistical capabilities give you then the limited options.
Mixing it in with player skill, the player skill is dependant upon the character skill. Meaning, you can never be better than what the character skill allows.
Games like counterstrike or unreal tournament are not rpgs. They are categorized as first person shooters. Each character, or object i should say, is capable of the same thing. They are static. The player's skill is always the deciding factor and the characters skill is not even part of the equation or taken into consideration. Its purely based on the players input.
This is why we have genres, they categorize and lay down certain expectations. I dont know if that was clear enough, but I hope you get the jist of it.
As for a good mmorpg needing both... a mmorpg stands for massive multiplayer online role playing game. That definition alone should exlain it. Not only it a role playing game based on your character, but its dependant on character interactions (massively multiplayer), players as a sum, and thus their input is important to the over all effect of the massive multiplayer experience.
I think the disagreement here is whether or not roles should be defined by the developers or left up to the players. I don't need another daddy
. I do not need the preset limitations predetermined prescripted roles layed out like mommy laying your undies out for you in the morning. If anything that takes much away from the game rather than "adding to the lore". Let players create the lore themselves, which happens in the games as it is. The extremely limited choices layed out by developers limits roleplaying not enhances it. It should be left up to players to create their own player and their own players limitations. The issue here is not role playing the way they set up these games is more like they are telling you a story rather than you creating it yourself.
I think you are confusing game design with personal role playing. The foundation of all gaming comes from limitations actually. Limitations via rule sets that the player has to go through create challenges, which then create the game. In game design theory, the first lesson is to understand what a game is. A game by definition is a rule set that then creates a challenge.
You seem to want the mmorpg to be a doll house in which you create whatever drama and rules you want. MMORPGs are not doll houses. They are rule sets often backed by character and world setting and lore. While you are free to make up what you wish within those confines, you must adhere to them, and that there in is the challenge.
If you give a kid a ball and a big yard to play in. Thats not a game. Thats just playing. IF you tell him he can only move the ball with his left foot and must put it in the corner...then thats a game. MMORPGs are games.
The developers create the world, the rule sets, the concrete unescapable defintions of the game, especially when they are supposed to be part of a specific genre. Within those confines you are free to act as you please, but like a rat in a maze, you are limited in your choices. Thats the way it should be. If you dont like that you can always play with a doll house or load up Second Life, which is more of a simulatation than a game.
Player skill. Character skill will be there as well but as a secondary factor, player skill will be the major factor that should determine how well you play.
Character skill will mainly be something I see that you want to build a character in one way, but if character skill becomes too emphasized, it'll just birth cookie cutter builds. I hate cookie cutter builds. It should allow you to build a character the way you want. You can make a fast hitting character or the high ass HP character that will hold some kind of advantage over the typical big burst low HP character or any other way you want. Player skill will reduce cookie cutter builds significantly because a good player can get a random build and beat anyone.
That said I hate it when players think they're good players just because they've sat on their ass playing the game longer than other people. They can say get vanity rewards (vanity = useless in function but for pride) but nothing that makes them 20 times more better than someone 5 levels below them.
You can say "lrn2play n00b" freely and the loser won't feel so bad because hey he just needs to polish up on gaming skills not abandon school, work, and life to play some game to be good at it.
If by player skill you mean aiming and that kind of skills, this does not exist in online playing because of the miriad of cheats and macros and what not.
If you mean strategy, then yes I prefer player skill, but mixed with character skill.