I can understand the personal opinion on this topic (as I play both F2P and P2P mmos), and I see both good and bad from these types of games.
About F2P: Most games are log budget is because of the culture. Many of the F2P are made in Asia, where people mostly uses internet cafe to play games (about a decade ago internet cafe was getting popular in the state, at least in California where I live. But that went away as many more people are getting DSL and Cable, fast internet at home... These are all contributors to what type of payment method you want.). To use P2P method in internet cafe is not viable for most people in Asia.
Consider this:
if you pay for a whole month, but yet you can't play it at home (too slow a connection), and you have to find internet cafe that carries the game in their computer. That's a waste of time and money for times you cannot play the game. So the developers, in order to fit the need for the gamers there, uses the F2P with item-shop as payment method to give the players a chance while still earn some profit to keep the company a float.
Now many of the Asian company (I follow some of the Taiwan gaming studios and Japan studios) are using F2P as a way to do faster development for mmo (in Asia, Open Beta is pretty much "release" in the gamers' mind)
Even though in Asian countries there are more household using ADSL now (I haven't heard that Cable is common yet), but the mindset has taken hold. Only a few games in the Asian countries that they will charge monthly fee, but most of them are F2P with itemshop.
Anyway, getting off topic...
My point is that not counting the payment method, some F2P have good design behind them, others not so much. The same can applied to P2P games as well. So I would say NO, I'm not tired of them.
Can't really say I'm tired of them as I refuse to play them. I can say that I am tired of developers using that payment model as it is nothing but a scam.
Yup and you pay double for the ones who dont pay at all..I will only buy items if it is permenant only and on sale..Other than that I refuse to buy items at full price and last 30 days only..Eg; Storage,Pets..I want more for my hard earn money..
Some people rob you at gun point..Others will rob you at "Ball Point Pen"
I don't know if you realize this, but you are talking about a video game. An electronic means of entertainment. A person plays a game for enjoyment, not for respect. There's not 1 pixel in any game in existance that one person could hold that makes me in any way "respect" them. If you want respect go out and get an education, get a good job,a nice house, give to a charitable cause, but don't come looking for it in a game.
I realize it is a videogame 100%. While I agree with you on the respect bit I don't support mall MMO's one bit. The reason is I play the game for fun and entertainment. That entertainment does not include me having to buy extra stuff to have the equal opportunities in a game as someone else. I'm quite stingy with my money and I feel the subscription model+expansion model suits me quite well.
Noone dictates that you have to spend any optional money. You talk of equal opportunities but real life is not quite equal to all people. Some people have less free time than others to devote to say a game. Why should someone playing 20 hours a month pay the same as someone playing 200? You make an argument over money but not over time. A persons time is worth money. If you work over you expect some compensation, and generallly that is done with money. If you have less time, say for example I don't have time to do the plumbing work in my house I pay for someone elses time with my money.
I am not arguing that the best items in game should be obtainable only by real world cash, nor should this secondary economy and items be closed off from those who choose not to delve into it. They should be interchangable and not too overpowering. Item focus has long been a sore spot with these games, but honestly at some point I really think someone will come out and offer something more middle ground that isn't so polarizing to the players.
I'm sick of them, A Perfect World drew the last straw with me. All these MMO's are crap and the people who are stupid enough to spend $100's- 1000's are insane.
ALL OF THESE in-game store MMO's are unbalanced and bring nothing new to MMO's except bad marketing.
I think the monthly subscription MMO's offer more and are much more balanced for their whole community.
I have to agree with you. At least with subscription-based MMO's, your character has what he or she has earned in-game. But with the item mall stuff, your character's gear is bought, not earned, and therefore not worthy of respect in any form.
I don't know if you realize this, but you are talking about a video game. An electronic means of entertainment. A person plays a game for enjoyment, not for respect. There's not 1 pixel in any game in existance that one person could hold that makes me in any way "respect" them. If you want respect go out and get an education, get a good job,a nice house, give to a charitable cause, but don't come looking for it in a game.
I mean respect for gaming skills, of course, and that should be obvious in this forum. I also mean respect for the item, as in being impressed with a difficult-to-obtain item that required overcoming tough obstacles.
If you buy, then there is none of that feelings, just like if football players bought, instead of earned, Super Bowl rings.
I'm sick of them, A Perfect World drew the last straw with me. All these MMO's are crap and the people who are stupid enough to spend $100's- 1000's are insane.
ALL OF THESE in-game store MMO's are unbalanced and bring nothing new to MMO's except bad marketing.
I think the monthly subscription MMO's offer more and are much more balanced for their whole community.
I have to agree with you. At least with subscription-based MMO's, your character has what he or she has earned in-game. But with the item mall stuff, your character's gear is bought, not earned, and therefore not worthy of respect in any form.
I don't know if you realize this, but you are talking about a video game. An electronic means of entertainment. A person plays a game for enjoyment, not for respect. There's not 1 pixel in any game in existance that one person could hold that makes me in any way "respect" them. If you want respect go out and get an education, get a good job,a nice house, give to a charitable cause, but don't come looking for it in a game.
I mean respect for gaming skills, of course, and that should be obvious in this forum. I also mean respect for the item, as in being impressed with a difficult-to-obtain item that required overcoming tough obstacles.
If you buy, then there is none of that feelings, just like if football players bought, instead of earned, Super Bowl rings.
1) The point here is nobody cares whether u "respect" thier item or not "THE" point is to have fun.
2) If you think paying $50 initially and then $15 a month is any diffirent than the Mall your're and idiot. At least you have a choice wether or not to use the mall.
I'm sick of them, A Perfect World drew the last straw with me. All these MMO's are crap and the people who are stupid enough to spend $100's- 1000's are insane.
ALL OF THESE in-game store MMO's are unbalanced and bring nothing new to MMO's except bad marketing.
I think the monthly subscription MMO's offer more and are much more balanced for their whole community.
I have to agree with you. At least with subscription-based MMO's, your character has what he or she has earned in-game. But with the item mall stuff, your character's gear is bought, not earned, and therefore not worthy of respect in any form.
I don't know if you realize this, but you are talking about a video game. An electronic means of entertainment. A person plays a game for enjoyment, not for respect. There's not 1 pixel in any game in existance that one person could hold that makes me in any way "respect" them. If you want respect go out and get an education, get a good job,a nice house, give to a charitable cause, but don't come looking for it in a game.
I agree, too many people use items as a means of feeding the ego. It's a poor substitute for garnering respect. Reminds me of the guy whose argument in favor of an Elders Scroll MMO was so that he could walk around with a rare sword and have people idolize him for it.
Playing - FFXIV, ESO Played - FFXI, WoW, Lineage 2, Guild Wars, Aion, SWToR, LotRO, GW2, TERA, Rift, ArcheAge, TSW
I'm sick of them, A Perfect World drew the last straw with me. All these MMO's are crap and the people who are stupid enough to spend $100's- 1000's are insane.
ALL OF THESE in-game store MMO's are unbalanced and bring nothing new to MMO's except bad marketing.
I think the monthly subscription MMO's offer more and are much more balanced for their whole community.
You are totally right, never In an MMO should the amount of cash you have in the real world affect what you have in the game world. Items/Gold etc should be earned though playing not by just maxing out your Visa card.
I'm sick of them, A Perfect World drew the last straw with me. All these MMO's are crap and the people who are stupid enough to spend $100's- 1000's are insane.
ALL OF THESE in-game store MMO's are unbalanced and bring nothing new to MMO's except bad marketing.
I think the monthly subscription MMO's offer more and are much more balanced for their whole community.
I have to agree with you. At least with subscription-based MMO's, your character has what he or she has earned in-game. But with the item mall stuff, your character's gear is bought, not earned, and therefore not worthy of respect in any form.
I don't know if you realize this, but you are talking about a video game. An electronic means of entertainment. A person plays a game for enjoyment, not for respect. There's not 1 pixel in any game in existance that one person could hold that makes me in any way "respect" them. If you want respect go out and get an education, get a good job,a nice house, give to a charitable cause, but don't come looking for it in a game.
I mean respect for gaming skills, of course, and that should be obvious in this forum. I also mean respect for the item, as in being impressed with a difficult-to-obtain item that required overcoming tough obstacles.
If you buy, then there is none of that feelings, just like if football players bought, instead of earned, Super Bowl rings.
1) The point here is nobody cares whether u "respect" thier item or not "THE" point is to have fun.
2) If you think paying $50 initially and then $15 a month is any diffirent than the Mall your're and idiot. At least you have a choice wether or not to use the mall.
We seem to be in the minority, but I tend to agree with you. And as monthly fees tie you to playing one or two games, unless you're going to chuck monthly subscriptions around, then it doesn't suit my way of playing, which entails flitting from one MMO to another, and back, as the whim takes me. I've no doubt those who have played WoW five hours a day, seven days a week, for the last five years have got their money's worth, but even my short subscription periods have only been half used. I certainly think six, seven year old games are going to have a hard time justifyting their subscription fees, when quality F2P games are coming out. Especially games like EQ2 which is introducing a mall on top of a subs base! Of course this dopesn't apply to WoW as they have 10 million plus people willing to pay!
I'm sick of them, A Perfect World drew the last straw with me. All these MMO's are crap and the people who are stupid enough to spend $100's- 1000's are insane.
ALL OF THESE in-game store MMO's are unbalanced and bring nothing new to MMO's except bad marketing.
I think the monthly subscription MMO's offer more and are much more balanced for their whole community.
I have to agree with you. At least with subscription-based MMO's, your character has what he or she has earned in-game. But with the item mall stuff, your character's gear is bought, not earned, and therefore not worthy of respect in any form.
I don't know if you realize this, but you are talking about a video game. An electronic means of entertainment. A person plays a game for enjoyment, not for respect. There's not 1 pixel in any game in existance that one person could hold that makes me in any way "respect" them. If you want respect go out and get an education, get a good job,a nice house, give to a charitable cause, but don't come looking for it in a game.
I mean respect for gaming skills, of course, and that should be obvious in this forum. I also mean respect for the item, as in being impressed with a difficult-to-obtain item that required overcoming tough obstacles.
If you buy, then there is none of that feelings, just like if football players bought, instead of earned, Super Bowl rings.
1) The point here is nobody cares whether u "respect" thier item or not "THE" point is to have fun.
2) If you think paying $50 initially and then $15 a month is any diffirent than the Mall your're and idiot. At least you have a choice wether or not to use the mall.
Well here I have to disagree.The reason the Item Mall is put in place is to Make money .Then what they do is tweak the game so that you need the Items in the Item Mall one way or another, in which you are paying more than you should.I rather pay $15 amonth with out some kind of limitation Vs a game that has been tweaked with limitation..Those who play for free with out spending a dime should not a bitch at all..I mean the game is free for you.But to those who like what they have in the Item Mall spends double not by choice either.Item mall pricing is very high.That means the game is still free for those who DO NOT PAY!That also means that the game needs to make money or they will shut it down.
Some people rob you at gun point..Others will rob you at "Ball Point Pen"
I'm surprised by some comments in this thread as it has progressed. Well maybe not since this is a heated topic with polarized opinions.
To me a game that is free to play is just that, free. Of course it is going to have limitations the same way games of old used to have limited shareware style free mode where you could do or play the game to a certain point and afterwards had to pay. It's pretty much a trial mode. These games also tend to be low budget so of course they are not going to be as polished as high budget P2P games. So either you continue to play it for free with the limitations or reward the developer by buying from the item shop however much you feel they deserve.
Just like P2P versions, there are good F2P games and bad F2P games. In general few are worthy of serious recognition but like most games in the market each tries to fill a niche hoping to attract paying customers. As I had posted before I don't mind F2P games, but I will judge them like I do P2P games. Just like I refuse to buy or sub to a game that I don't feel is worthy I won't pay for items in an item shop if I feel the F2P developer is not doing their job to satisfy my needs. Simple as that.
So as long as the developer can fullfill my gaming needs with a fair, balanced, rewarding game experience I don't care how I reward them. $180 a year, Lifetime Membership, or micropayments it doesn't matter. If the game is solid they will get some of my money. If not I won't play it.
============================== Currently Playing: Lord of the Rings Online since original Open Beta, Atlantica Online Waiting On: Knights of the Old Republic, Aion Played: World of Warcraft (3 years), Ultima Online (2 years), EvE Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Lineage, Perfect World
Whats funny is, a lot of you seem to think F2P games are niche, tiny, obscure games that cant compete with Pay to play games.
News flash, some of the largest, and most successful games use Micro payment models. Originally ALL Online games did. Pay to play games area a MINORITY of the MMO's out there, they are even the smallest as far as player bases are concerned.
Typically, F2P games are where innovation comes from, not pay to play rehash clones.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Whats funny is, a lot of you seem to think F2P games are niche, tiny, obscure games that cant compete with Pay to play games.
News flash, some of the largest, and most successful games use Micro payment models. Originally ALL Online games did. Pay to play games area a MINORITY of the MMO's out there, they are even the smallest as far as player bases are concerned. Typically, F2P games are where innovation comes from, not pay to play rehash clones.
Yep F2P games rake in probably about the same money (at least not much lower) as P2P games. Obviously P2P is far more popular in the west but F2P games rake in significant amounts in Asia.
I continue to state that at some point we will see a hybrid pay model to allow big name companies to cast as wide a net as possible to bring in revenue. They are still inexperienced in finding the balance gamers want but at some point the western player base will give in.
============================== Currently Playing: Lord of the Rings Online since original Open Beta, Atlantica Online Waiting On: Knights of the Old Republic, Aion Played: World of Warcraft (3 years), Ultima Online (2 years), EvE Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Lineage, Perfect World
Most P2P games are already hybrids. Its just that the company running the P2P has no control over the "Item Mall". The market for Virtual Goods is huge, wether it be currency, items, or whole accounts.
Good point! It's true, players in P2P games already buy success, but the games companies aren't getting the dosh.
I'm sick of them, A Perfect World drew the last straw with me. All these MMO's are crap and the people who are stupid enough to spend $100's- 1000's are insane.
ALL OF THESE in-game store MMO's are unbalanced and bring nothing new to MMO's except bad marketing.
I think the monthly subscription MMO's offer more and are much more balanced for their whole community.
I have to agree with you. At least with subscription-based MMO's, your character has what he or she has earned in-game. But with the item mall stuff, your character's gear is bought, not earned, and therefore not worthy of respect in any form.
I don't know if you realize this, but you are talking about a video game. An electronic means of entertainment. A person plays a game for enjoyment, not for respect. There's not 1 pixel in any game in existance that one person could hold that makes me in any way "respect" them. If you want respect go out and get an education, get a good job,a nice house, give to a charitable cause, but don't come looking for it in a game.
I mean respect for gaming skills, of course, and that should be obvious in this forum. I also mean respect for the item, as in being impressed with a difficult-to-obtain item that required overcoming tough obstacles.
If you buy, then there is none of that feelings, just like if football players bought, instead of earned, Super Bowl rings.
1) The point here is nobody cares whether u "respect" thier item or not "THE" point is to have fun.
2) If you think paying $50 initially and then $15 a month is any diffirent than the Mall your're and idiot. At least you have a choice wether or not to use the mall.
Your points are wrong and if you do not understand what I am talking about, then likely I cannot get the concept across to you. Also, the way you try to twist the concept by saying that people who need to be respected in game are missing something in their lives is just silly.
People play MMO's to socialize, progress, and improve their ranking and status among their peers. The whole idea of heroic adventure is to overcome opponents and acquire loot.
If no one "respected" items, then there would be no reason to raid dungeons or to stop by an item mall and plunk down some cash. Obviously, having better items is some kind of status symbol in a game; this is the reason we level, this is the reason we go to the auction house and buy gear.
Otherwise, why not just never leave noobland and run about with your "worn out sword" and smack the same old level 1 kobolds ad infinitum?
Competing, striving, gaining, excelling, exploring dangerous areas, and overcoming obstacles are all part of the fun in these games. There are other facets that are fun as well, such as community, taking risks and so forth. But to ignore the components of achievement in a MMORPG is just being blind.
Now sure, some folks are less aggressive at advancement than others, but I never, never, never met another player in an MMO who did not want to improve his or her character or acquire nicer gear. And when they acquired the latter through tough challenges, they always seemed to take some pride.
Item mall is a device to make money, not to improve a game. Maybe if you are the type who has to buy his achievements rather than earn them, then something is missing in you. Because if you cannot handle challenge in a game, I wonder if you can handle it anywhere.
Whats funny is, a lot of you seem to think F2P games are niche, tiny, obscure games that cant compete with Pay to play games.
News flash, some of the largest, and most successful games use Micro payment models. Originally ALL Online games did. Pay to play games area a MINORITY of the MMO's out there, they are even the smallest as far as player bases are concerned. Typically, F2P games are where innovation comes from, not pay to play rehash clones.
Yep F2P games rake in probably about the same money (at least not much lower) as P2P games. Obviously P2P is far more popular in the west but F2P games rake in significant amounts in Asia.
I continue to state that at some point we will see a hybrid pay model to allow big name companies to cast as wide a net as possible to bring in revenue. They are still inexperienced in finding the balance gamers want but at some point the western player base will give in.
Actually the Hybrid is here already ... See SOE's EQII model
I'm sick of them, A Perfect World drew the last straw with me. All these MMO's are crap and the people who are stupid enough to spend $100's- 1000's are insane.
ALL OF THESE in-game store MMO's are unbalanced and bring nothing new to MMO's except bad marketing.
I think the monthly subscription MMO's offer more and are much more balanced for their whole community.
You are totally right, never In an MMO should the amount of cash you have in the real world affect what you have in the game world. Items/Gold etc should be earned though playing not by just maxing out your Visa card.
Wait ... so by your logic a person who has alot of time on their hands to sit around and play games should benefit while those of us who don't should remain uncompetative due to our time constraints?
I'm sick of them, A Perfect World drew the last straw with me. All these MMO's are crap and the people who are stupid enough to spend $100's- 1000's are insane.
ALL OF THESE in-game store MMO's are unbalanced and bring nothing new to MMO's except bad marketing.
I think the monthly subscription MMO's offer more and are much more balanced for their whole community.
I have to agree with you. At least with subscription-based MMO's, your character has what he or she has earned in-game. But with the item mall stuff, your character's gear is bought, not earned, and therefore not worthy of respect in any form.
I don't know if you realize this, but you are talking about a video game. An electronic means of entertainment. A person plays a game for enjoyment, not for respect. There's not 1 pixel in any game in existance that one person could hold that makes me in any way "respect" them. If you want respect go out and get an education, get a good job,a nice house, give to a charitable cause, but don't come looking for it in a game.
I mean respect for gaming skills, of course, and that should be obvious in this forum. I also mean respect for the item, as in being impressed with a difficult-to-obtain item that required overcoming tough obstacles.
If you buy, then there is none of that feelings, just like if football players bought, instead of earned, Super Bowl rings.
1) The point here is nobody cares whether u "respect" thier item or not "THE" point is to have fun.
2) If you think paying $50 initially and then $15 a month is any diffirent than the Mall your're and idiot. At least you have a choice wether or not to use the mall.
Your points are wrong and if you do not understand what I am talking about, then likely I cannot get the concept across to you. Also, the way you try to twist the concept by saying that people who need to be respected in game are missing something in their lives is just silly.
People play MMO's to socialize, progress, and improve their ranking and status among their peers. The whole idea of heroic adventure is to overcome opponents and acquire loot.
If no one "respected" items, then there would be no reason to raid dungeons or to stop by an item mall and plunk down some cash. Obviously, having better items is some kind of status symbol in a game; this is the reason we level, this is the reason we go to the auction house and buy gear.
Otherwise, why not just never leave noobland and run about with your "worn out sword" and smack the same old level 1 kobolds ad infinitum?
Competing, striving, gaining, excelling, exploring dangerous areas, and overcoming obstacles are all part of the fun in these games. There are other facets that are fun as well, such as community, taking risks and so forth. But to ignore the components of achievement in a MMORPG is just being blind.
Now sure, some folks are less aggressive at advancement than others, but I never, never, never met another player in an MMO who did not want to improve his or her character or acquire nicer gear. And when they acquired the latter through tough challenges, they always seemed to take some pride.
Item mall is a device to make money, not to improve a game. Maybe if you are the type who has to buy his achievements rather than earn them, then something is missing in you. Because if you cannot handle challenge in a game, I wonder if you can handle it anywhere.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. EVERYone's experience and reasons for playing a game is different. While basically it is to have fun, the ways in which an indvidual perceives fun is unique to that individual. As I'm sure some people think Rock is the best music in the world others may say Rap.
I would just like to say that while some ppl have the time to do the four hour dugeon crawl to acquire the epic sword most don't. And you are right, it is gratifying to acheive this milestone but for others it is just not possible within the real world time constriants. Are you saying that because one has the time to spend hours upon hours in a game world that the other should be penalized, fall behind, remain less competative? You have time, I have money seems to me to be different paths to same destination. I would argue that time is more valuable than money ... but thats just my opinion.
Incidentlly game makers make games to make money your enjoyment is only a means to that end. The Item Mall is not in a F2P game to be looked at as improvement or not, it is the way the game makes it's money and is therefore intragal to the game mechanic. No monthly payment in a P2P and No Item Mall in a F2P more than likely means no improvements to the game and ultimately no game.
Wow I just re-read the end to your response and you just could not keep it civil so I had to edit my post with the following:
Your way is not the only way. There is no right or wrong answer when it comes to individual taste. It's one of the basic priciples that the United States Constitution is founded on. Since I don't know you I won't lower myself to respond to your calling me for all intents and purposes lazy ("has to buy acheivments rather than earn them"); flawed (can't handle game challenges so somehow reflects on real life?); and ultimately dishonorable because I make use of what is an essential game mechanic; except to say Thank-you for what up until that point was a decent debate.
*Pls. excuse all the grammtical and spelling errors. 4:00 AM here in Miami
Want a good example of what happens with a over the top item mall, go play Voyage century.
I did like the game, its not much TBH but it did not have elves.. so I give it a shot, I was enjoying it untill I relased that you can PAY to level LOL.
I hope that 1 example gives you an idea of how F*ed up it really is,
while I was there some dude payed 20k whatever there called points, which equals a few thousand dollers for a fishing rod...
I hope that example shows how much more money this guy had then sense which is what these companys really hope for, the ideal customer like him
Want a good example of what happens with a over the top item mall, go play Voyage century. I did like the game, its not much TBH but it did not have elves.. so I give it a shot, I was enjoying it untill I relased that you can PAY to level LOL. I hope that 1 example gives you an idea of how F*ed up it really is, while I was there some dude payed 20k whatever there called points, which equals a few thousand dollers for a fishing rod... I hope that example shows how much more money this guy had then sense which is what these companys really hope for, the ideal customer like him
How is that any different to me going to IGE and buying a lvl 80 WoW account for $2000?
Not that I would cause WoW sucks, but micro transaction games are just legitimising a business model that is evident in ALL MMOs currently on the market.
Video Games is a buiness.Lets pretend that a restaurant gives bread and water out free to everybody who comes in, If everyone just has bread and water how do they make money. To make money they have raise the prices on normal stuff just a bit higher to pay for the "free bread and water”. Free to play mmo are giving away portion of their game for free, they are many players who are playing the game who will never pay 1 cent. Many people are getting angry at those players who want to spend crazy money on the game well guess what those players are paying for you to play the game for free.
Actually microtransaction payment supported games (aka F2P games) are on the rise but it is good because it gives players a chance to try out the game first before supporting it. I've tried tons of games and if they were Pay to play I would have to fork over $15 a month or even pay for the box set just to find out that I didn't like the game enough to pay for it. So yeah F2P is good for the players unfortunately, most F2P are korean/japanese imports that are designed for their local players (which might have different mentality or gaming credo than NA/EU players). So I'm not adverse at all to cash shop supported games but instead I'm sick of mmos that are designed to sell their cash shop too much. In fact I would love titles that support options for both cash shop (F2P) and monthly subscription. Unfortunately only very few games does that. And of course the most important thing is the game should be FUN and interesting (and many of these imports are lacking that).
I'm sick of them, A Perfect World drew the last straw with me. All these MMO's are crap and the people who are stupid enough to spend $100's- 1000's are insane. ALL OF THESE in-game store MMO's are unbalanced and bring nothing new to MMO's except bad marketing. I think the monthly subscription MMO's offer more and are much more balanced for their whole community.
I agree...Thats why I never look at any item mall when I play a F2P game........If you dont know whats there you dont know what you are missing and there is no temptation to spend.
I'm sick of them, A Perfect World drew the last straw with me. All these MMO's are crap and the people who are stupid enough to spend $100's- 1000's are insane.
ALL OF THESE in-game store MMO's are unbalanced and bring nothing new to MMO's except bad marketing.
I think the monthly subscription MMO's offer more and are much more balanced for their whole community.
You are totally right, never In an MMO should the amount of cash you have in the real world affect what you have in the game world. Items/Gold etc should be earned though playing not by just maxing out your Visa card.
Wait ... so by your logic a person who has alot of time on their hands to sit around and play games should benefit while those of us who don't should remain uncompetative due to our time constraints?
learn to manage and plan your online time better then. MMO's are not for you, take Warhammer and it's failure as an MMO for example.. :
They dumbed it down so much and made it so easy for everyone to be on the same lvl and look where its at?
Comments
I can understand the personal opinion on this topic (as I play both F2P and P2P mmos), and I see both good and bad from these types of games.
About F2P: Most games are log budget is because of the culture. Many of the F2P are made in Asia, where people mostly uses internet cafe to play games (about a decade ago internet cafe was getting popular in the state, at least in California where I live. But that went away as many more people are getting DSL and Cable, fast internet at home... These are all contributors to what type of payment method you want.). To use P2P method in internet cafe is not viable for most people in Asia.
Consider this:
if you pay for a whole month, but yet you can't play it at home (too slow a connection), and you have to find internet cafe that carries the game in their computer. That's a waste of time and money for times you cannot play the game. So the developers, in order to fit the need for the gamers there, uses the F2P with item-shop as payment method to give the players a chance while still earn some profit to keep the company a float.
Now many of the Asian company (I follow some of the Taiwan gaming studios and Japan studios) are using F2P as a way to do faster development for mmo (in Asia, Open Beta is pretty much "release" in the gamers' mind)
Even though in Asian countries there are more household using ADSL now (I haven't heard that Cable is common yet), but the mindset has taken hold. Only a few games in the Asian countries that they will charge monthly fee, but most of them are F2P with itemshop.
Anyway, getting off topic...
My point is that not counting the payment method, some F2P have good design behind them, others not so much. The same can applied to P2P games as well. So I would say NO, I'm not tired of them.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
I hate item malls, but lets not generalize all item mall games as "pay to win". Several of them have item malls for cosmetic items only.
Some people rob you at gun point..Others will rob you at "Ball Point Pen"
I realize it is a videogame 100%. While I agree with you on the respect bit I don't support mall MMO's one bit. The reason is I play the game for fun and entertainment. That entertainment does not include me having to buy extra stuff to have the equal opportunities in a game as someone else. I'm quite stingy with my money and I feel the subscription model+expansion model suits me quite well.
Noone dictates that you have to spend any optional money. You talk of equal opportunities but real life is not quite equal to all people. Some people have less free time than others to devote to say a game. Why should someone playing 20 hours a month pay the same as someone playing 200? You make an argument over money but not over time. A persons time is worth money. If you work over you expect some compensation, and generallly that is done with money. If you have less time, say for example I don't have time to do the plumbing work in my house I pay for someone elses time with my money.
I am not arguing that the best items in game should be obtainable only by real world cash, nor should this secondary economy and items be closed off from those who choose not to delve into it. They should be interchangable and not too overpowering. Item focus has long been a sore spot with these games, but honestly at some point I really think someone will come out and offer something more middle ground that isn't so polarizing to the players.
I have to agree with you. At least with subscription-based MMO's, your character has what he or she has earned in-game. But with the item mall stuff, your character's gear is bought, not earned, and therefore not worthy of respect in any form.
I don't know if you realize this, but you are talking about a video game. An electronic means of entertainment. A person plays a game for enjoyment, not for respect. There's not 1 pixel in any game in existance that one person could hold that makes me in any way "respect" them. If you want respect go out and get an education, get a good job,a nice house, give to a charitable cause, but don't come looking for it in a game.
I mean respect for gaming skills, of course, and that should be obvious in this forum. I also mean respect for the item, as in being impressed with a difficult-to-obtain item that required overcoming tough obstacles.
If you buy, then there is none of that feelings, just like if football players bought, instead of earned, Super Bowl rings.
I have to agree with you. At least with subscription-based MMO's, your character has what he or she has earned in-game. But with the item mall stuff, your character's gear is bought, not earned, and therefore not worthy of respect in any form.
I don't know if you realize this, but you are talking about a video game. An electronic means of entertainment. A person plays a game for enjoyment, not for respect. There's not 1 pixel in any game in existance that one person could hold that makes me in any way "respect" them. If you want respect go out and get an education, get a good job,a nice house, give to a charitable cause, but don't come looking for it in a game.
I mean respect for gaming skills, of course, and that should be obvious in this forum. I also mean respect for the item, as in being impressed with a difficult-to-obtain item that required overcoming tough obstacles.
If you buy, then there is none of that feelings, just like if football players bought, instead of earned, Super Bowl rings.
1) The point here is nobody cares whether u "respect" thier item or not "THE" point is to have fun.
2) If you think paying $50 initially and then $15 a month is any diffirent than the Mall your're and idiot. At least you have a choice wether or not to use the mall.
I have to agree with you. At least with subscription-based MMO's, your character has what he or she has earned in-game. But with the item mall stuff, your character's gear is bought, not earned, and therefore not worthy of respect in any form.
I don't know if you realize this, but you are talking about a video game. An electronic means of entertainment. A person plays a game for enjoyment, not for respect. There's not 1 pixel in any game in existance that one person could hold that makes me in any way "respect" them. If you want respect go out and get an education, get a good job,a nice house, give to a charitable cause, but don't come looking for it in a game.
I agree, too many people use items as a means of feeding the ego. It's a poor substitute for garnering respect. Reminds me of the guy whose argument in favor of an Elders Scroll MMO was so that he could walk around with a rare sword and have people idolize him for it.
Playing - FFXIV, ESO
Played - FFXI, WoW, Lineage 2, Guild Wars, Aion, SWToR, LotRO, GW2, TERA, Rift, ArcheAge, TSW
You are totally right, never In an MMO should the amount of cash you have in the real world affect what you have in the game world. Items/Gold etc should be earned though playing not by just maxing out your Visa card.
I have to agree with you. At least with subscription-based MMO's, your character has what he or she has earned in-game. But with the item mall stuff, your character's gear is bought, not earned, and therefore not worthy of respect in any form.
I don't know if you realize this, but you are talking about a video game. An electronic means of entertainment. A person plays a game for enjoyment, not for respect. There's not 1 pixel in any game in existance that one person could hold that makes me in any way "respect" them. If you want respect go out and get an education, get a good job,a nice house, give to a charitable cause, but don't come looking for it in a game.
I mean respect for gaming skills, of course, and that should be obvious in this forum. I also mean respect for the item, as in being impressed with a difficult-to-obtain item that required overcoming tough obstacles.
If you buy, then there is none of that feelings, just like if football players bought, instead of earned, Super Bowl rings.
1) The point here is nobody cares whether u "respect" thier item or not "THE" point is to have fun.
2) If you think paying $50 initially and then $15 a month is any diffirent than the Mall your're and idiot. At least you have a choice wether or not to use the mall.
We seem to be in the minority, but I tend to agree with you. And as monthly fees tie you to playing one or two games, unless you're going to chuck monthly subscriptions around, then it doesn't suit my way of playing, which entails flitting from one MMO to another, and back, as the whim takes me. I've no doubt those who have played WoW five hours a day, seven days a week, for the last five years have got their money's worth, but even my short subscription periods have only been half used. I certainly think six, seven year old games are going to have a hard time justifyting their subscription fees, when quality F2P games are coming out. Especially games like EQ2 which is introducing a mall on top of a subs base! Of course this dopesn't apply to WoW as they have 10 million plus people willing to pay!
I have to agree with you. At least with subscription-based MMO's, your character has what he or she has earned in-game. But with the item mall stuff, your character's gear is bought, not earned, and therefore not worthy of respect in any form.
I don't know if you realize this, but you are talking about a video game. An electronic means of entertainment. A person plays a game for enjoyment, not for respect. There's not 1 pixel in any game in existance that one person could hold that makes me in any way "respect" them. If you want respect go out and get an education, get a good job,a nice house, give to a charitable cause, but don't come looking for it in a game.
I mean respect for gaming skills, of course, and that should be obvious in this forum. I also mean respect for the item, as in being impressed with a difficult-to-obtain item that required overcoming tough obstacles.
If you buy, then there is none of that feelings, just like if football players bought, instead of earned, Super Bowl rings.
1) The point here is nobody cares whether u "respect" thier item or not "THE" point is to have fun.
2) If you think paying $50 initially and then $15 a month is any diffirent than the Mall your're and idiot. At least you have a choice wether or not to use the mall.
Well here I have to disagree.The reason the Item Mall is put in place is to Make money .Then what they do is tweak the game so that you need the Items in the Item Mall one way or another, in which you are paying more than you should.I rather pay $15 amonth with out some kind of limitation Vs a game that has been tweaked with limitation..Those who play for free with out spending a dime should not a bitch at all..I mean the game is free for you.But to those who like what they have in the Item Mall spends double not by choice either.Item mall pricing is very high.That means the game is still free for those who DO NOT PAY!That also means that the game needs to make money or they will shut it down.
Some people rob you at gun point..Others will rob you at "Ball Point Pen"
I'm surprised by some comments in this thread as it has progressed. Well maybe not since this is a heated topic with polarized opinions.
To me a game that is free to play is just that, free. Of course it is going to have limitations the same way games of old used to have limited shareware style free mode where you could do or play the game to a certain point and afterwards had to pay. It's pretty much a trial mode. These games also tend to be low budget so of course they are not going to be as polished as high budget P2P games. So either you continue to play it for free with the limitations or reward the developer by buying from the item shop however much you feel they deserve.
Just like P2P versions, there are good F2P games and bad F2P games. In general few are worthy of serious recognition but like most games in the market each tries to fill a niche hoping to attract paying customers. As I had posted before I don't mind F2P games, but I will judge them like I do P2P games. Just like I refuse to buy or sub to a game that I don't feel is worthy I won't pay for items in an item shop if I feel the F2P developer is not doing their job to satisfy my needs. Simple as that.
So as long as the developer can fullfill my gaming needs with a fair, balanced, rewarding game experience I don't care how I reward them. $180 a year, Lifetime Membership, or micropayments it doesn't matter. If the game is solid they will get some of my money. If not I won't play it.
==============================
Currently Playing: Lord of the Rings Online since original Open Beta, Atlantica Online
Waiting On: Knights of the Old Republic, Aion
Played: World of Warcraft (3 years), Ultima Online (2 years), EvE Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Lineage, Perfect World
Whats funny is, a lot of you seem to think F2P games are niche, tiny, obscure games that cant compete with Pay to play games.
News flash, some of the largest, and most successful games use Micro payment models. Originally ALL Online games did. Pay to play games area a MINORITY of the MMO's out there, they are even the smallest as far as player bases are concerned.
Typically, F2P games are where innovation comes from, not pay to play rehash clones.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Yep F2P games rake in probably about the same money (at least not much lower) as P2P games. Obviously P2P is far more popular in the west but F2P games rake in significant amounts in Asia.
I continue to state that at some point we will see a hybrid pay model to allow big name companies to cast as wide a net as possible to bring in revenue. They are still inexperienced in finding the balance gamers want but at some point the western player base will give in.
==============================
Currently Playing: Lord of the Rings Online since original Open Beta, Atlantica Online
Waiting On: Knights of the Old Republic, Aion
Played: World of Warcraft (3 years), Ultima Online (2 years), EvE Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Lineage, Perfect World
Most P2P games are already hybrids. Its just that the company running the P2P has no control over the
"Item Mall". The market for Virtual Goods is huge, wether it be currency, items, or whole accounts.
Good point! It's true, players in P2P games already buy success, but the games companies aren't getting the dosh.
I have to agree with you. At least with subscription-based MMO's, your character has what he or she has earned in-game. But with the item mall stuff, your character's gear is bought, not earned, and therefore not worthy of respect in any form.
I don't know if you realize this, but you are talking about a video game. An electronic means of entertainment. A person plays a game for enjoyment, not for respect. There's not 1 pixel in any game in existance that one person could hold that makes me in any way "respect" them. If you want respect go out and get an education, get a good job,a nice house, give to a charitable cause, but don't come looking for it in a game.
I mean respect for gaming skills, of course, and that should be obvious in this forum. I also mean respect for the item, as in being impressed with a difficult-to-obtain item that required overcoming tough obstacles.
If you buy, then there is none of that feelings, just like if football players bought, instead of earned, Super Bowl rings.
1) The point here is nobody cares whether u "respect" thier item or not "THE" point is to have fun.
2) If you think paying $50 initially and then $15 a month is any diffirent than the Mall your're and idiot. At least you have a choice wether or not to use the mall.
Your points are wrong and if you do not understand what I am talking about, then likely I cannot get the concept across to you. Also, the way you try to twist the concept by saying that people who need to be respected in game are missing something in their lives is just silly.
People play MMO's to socialize, progress, and improve their ranking and status among their peers. The whole idea of heroic adventure is to overcome opponents and acquire loot.
If no one "respected" items, then there would be no reason to raid dungeons or to stop by an item mall and plunk down some cash. Obviously, having better items is some kind of status symbol in a game; this is the reason we level, this is the reason we go to the auction house and buy gear.
Otherwise, why not just never leave noobland and run about with your "worn out sword" and smack the same old level 1 kobolds ad infinitum?
Competing, striving, gaining, excelling, exploring dangerous areas, and overcoming obstacles are all part of the fun in these games. There are other facets that are fun as well, such as community, taking risks and so forth. But to ignore the components of achievement in a MMORPG is just being blind.
Now sure, some folks are less aggressive at advancement than others, but I never, never, never met another player in an MMO who did not want to improve his or her character or acquire nicer gear. And when they acquired the latter through tough challenges, they always seemed to take some pride.
Item mall is a device to make money, not to improve a game. Maybe if you are the type who has to buy his achievements rather than earn them, then something is missing in you. Because if you cannot handle challenge in a game, I wonder if you can handle it anywhere.
Yep F2P games rake in probably about the same money (at least not much lower) as P2P games. Obviously P2P is far more popular in the west but F2P games rake in significant amounts in Asia.
I continue to state that at some point we will see a hybrid pay model to allow big name companies to cast as wide a net as possible to bring in revenue. They are still inexperienced in finding the balance gamers want but at some point the western player base will give in.
Actually the Hybrid is here already ... See SOE's EQII model
You are totally right, never In an MMO should the amount of cash you have in the real world affect what you have in the game world. Items/Gold etc should be earned though playing not by just maxing out your Visa card.
Wait ... so by your logic a person who has alot of time on their hands to sit around and play games should benefit while those of us who don't should remain uncompetative due to our time constraints?
I have to agree with you. At least with subscription-based MMO's, your character has what he or she has earned in-game. But with the item mall stuff, your character's gear is bought, not earned, and therefore not worthy of respect in any form.
I don't know if you realize this, but you are talking about a video game. An electronic means of entertainment. A person plays a game for enjoyment, not for respect. There's not 1 pixel in any game in existance that one person could hold that makes me in any way "respect" them. If you want respect go out and get an education, get a good job,a nice house, give to a charitable cause, but don't come looking for it in a game.
I mean respect for gaming skills, of course, and that should be obvious in this forum. I also mean respect for the item, as in being impressed with a difficult-to-obtain item that required overcoming tough obstacles.
If you buy, then there is none of that feelings, just like if football players bought, instead of earned, Super Bowl rings.
1) The point here is nobody cares whether u "respect" thier item or not "THE" point is to have fun.
2) If you think paying $50 initially and then $15 a month is any diffirent than the Mall your're and idiot. At least you have a choice wether or not to use the mall.
Your points are wrong and if you do not understand what I am talking about, then likely I cannot get the concept across to you. Also, the way you try to twist the concept by saying that people who need to be respected in game are missing something in their lives is just silly.
People play MMO's to socialize, progress, and improve their ranking and status among their peers. The whole idea of heroic adventure is to overcome opponents and acquire loot.
If no one "respected" items, then there would be no reason to raid dungeons or to stop by an item mall and plunk down some cash. Obviously, having better items is some kind of status symbol in a game; this is the reason we level, this is the reason we go to the auction house and buy gear.
Otherwise, why not just never leave noobland and run about with your "worn out sword" and smack the same old level 1 kobolds ad infinitum?
Competing, striving, gaining, excelling, exploring dangerous areas, and overcoming obstacles are all part of the fun in these games. There are other facets that are fun as well, such as community, taking risks and so forth. But to ignore the components of achievement in a MMORPG is just being blind.
Now sure, some folks are less aggressive at advancement than others, but I never, never, never met another player in an MMO who did not want to improve his or her character or acquire nicer gear. And when they acquired the latter through tough challenges, they always seemed to take some pride.
Item mall is a device to make money, not to improve a game. Maybe if you are the type who has to buy his achievements rather than earn them, then something is missing in you. Because if you cannot handle challenge in a game, I wonder if you can handle it anywhere.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. EVERYone's experience and reasons for playing a game is different. While basically it is to have fun, the ways in which an indvidual perceives fun is unique to that individual. As I'm sure some people think Rock is the best music in the world others may say Rap.
I would just like to say that while some ppl have the time to do the four hour dugeon crawl to acquire the epic sword most don't. And you are right, it is gratifying to acheive this milestone but for others it is just not possible within the real world time constriants. Are you saying that because one has the time to spend hours upon hours in a game world that the other should be penalized, fall behind, remain less competative? You have time, I have money seems to me to be different paths to same destination. I would argue that time is more valuable than money ... but thats just my opinion.
Incidentlly game makers make games to make money your enjoyment is only a means to that end. The Item Mall is not in a F2P game to be looked at as improvement or not, it is the way the game makes it's money and is therefore intragal to the game mechanic. No monthly payment in a P2P and No Item Mall in a F2P more than likely means no improvements to the game and ultimately no game.
Your way is not the only way. There is no right or wrong answer when it comes to individual taste. It's one of the basic priciples that the United States Constitution is founded on. Since I don't know you I won't lower myself to respond to your calling me for all intents and purposes lazy ("has to buy acheivments rather than earn them"); flawed (can't handle game challenges so somehow reflects on real life?); and ultimately dishonorable because I make use of what is an essential game mechanic; except to say Thank-you for what up until that point was a decent debate.
*Pls. excuse all the grammtical and spelling errors. 4:00 AM here in Miami
Want a good example of what happens with a over the top item mall, go play Voyage century.
I did like the game, its not much TBH but it did not have elves.. so I give it a shot, I was enjoying it untill I relased that you can PAY to level LOL.
I hope that 1 example gives you an idea of how F*ed up it really is,
while I was there some dude payed 20k whatever there called points, which equals a few thousand dollers for a fishing rod...
I hope that example shows how much more money this guy had then sense which is what these companys really hope for, the ideal customer like him
How is that any different to me going to IGE and buying a lvl 80 WoW account for $2000?
Not that I would cause WoW sucks, but micro transaction games are just legitimising a business model that is evident in ALL MMOs currently on the market.
Video Games is a buiness.Lets pretend that a restaurant gives bread and water out free to everybody who comes in, If everyone just has bread and water how do they make money. To make money they have raise the prices on normal stuff just a bit higher to pay for the "free bread and water”. Free to play mmo are giving away portion of their game for free, they are many players who are playing the game who will never pay 1 cent. Many people are getting angry at those players who want to spend crazy money on the game well guess what those players are paying for you to play the game for free.
Actually microtransaction payment supported games (aka F2P games) are on the rise but it is good because it gives players a chance to try out the game first before supporting it. I've tried tons of games and if they were Pay to play I would have to fork over $15 a month or even pay for the box set just to find out that I didn't like the game enough to pay for it. So yeah F2P is good for the players unfortunately, most F2P are korean/japanese imports that are designed for their local players (which might have different mentality or gaming credo than NA/EU players). So I'm not adverse at all to cash shop supported games but instead I'm sick of mmos that are designed to sell their cash shop too much. In fact I would love titles that support options for both cash shop (F2P) and monthly subscription. Unfortunately only very few games does that. And of course the most important thing is the game should be FUN and interesting (and many of these imports are lacking that).
I agree...Thats why I never look at any item mall when I play a F2P game........If you dont know whats there you dont know what you are missing and there is no temptation to spend.
You are totally right, never In an MMO should the amount of cash you have in the real world affect what you have in the game world. Items/Gold etc should be earned though playing not by just maxing out your Visa card.
Wait ... so by your logic a person who has alot of time on their hands to sit around and play games should benefit while those of us who don't should remain uncompetative due to our time constraints?
learn to manage and plan your online time better then. MMO's are not for you, take Warhammer and it's failure as an MMO for example.. :
They dumbed it down so much and made it so easy for everyone to be on the same lvl and look where its at?