The short, honest answer here: because people like their MMORPGs to be boring and predictable.
Aside from that, I agree with some of the earlier posters. If you want to change the trinity you have to change the AI and aggro mechanics. Personally, I'd go for some thing more closely resembles PvP.
Can we at least agree that you don't need specialization (much less the "holy trinity") to have cooperative, team/group oriented gameplay? I mean if nothing else, can we at least put that little fallacy of rationalization to rest?
What do you define as "cooperative, team/group oriented gameplay?" Do you need specialization for playing with a few friends? No, and I don't know of any game that does. Do you need specialization to implement engaging and detailed PvE content? Yes, and I don't know of any game that has succeeded otherwise.
I think i am going to talk a little bit more about my cox exp.We had a team made up of
Fire/Kin controller-dps/buffer
Dark Melee/ Dark Armor scrapper- dps
Earth/Storm controller- CC class
Ice/Ene Blaster-Dps
Assault/Devices-Dps
Illusion/Kin controller-buffer,CC
We had no tanker(tanking class) or defender(healing class).We where a very effective team because the buffer class in coh is a effective as heal class, why do you have to heal when you can cut down damage every body takes or the damage of the boss gives.We survive without a tank because the controllers especially the earth/storm could keep the big attacker of dps class and scrapper in pinch could act like a tank.
The point being the game is built around the trinity but support classes(cc,buffer,debuffer,off tanks) where actually good.You weren't force to use trinity you could actually use something different.The biggest key was break the healer dependence most class in CoH are hybrids that carry some form self dependence meaning healers don't to babysit for the whole fight.Even mmo use the old formula can give more importance to the "support classes".
Also If you have aggro in the game,You will probably have the trinity in it .Game that use cover,enemy placement and enemy formation types would be less dependent on the trinity system.
Can we at least agree that you don't need specialization (much less the "holy trinity") to have cooperative, team/group oriented gameplay? I mean if nothing else, can we at least put that little fallacy of rationalization to rest?
What do you define as "cooperative, team/group oriented gameplay?" Do you need specialization for playing with a few friends? No, and I don't know of any game that does. Do you need specialization to implement engaging and detailed PvE content? Yes, and I don't know of any game that has succeeded otherwise.
I see, so "engaging and detailed PvE content" is...
Can we at least agree that you don't need specialization (much less the "holy trinity") to have cooperative, team/group oriented gameplay? I mean if nothing else, can we at least put that little fallacy of rationalization to rest?
What do you define as "cooperative, team/group oriented gameplay?" Do you need specialization for playing with a few friends? No, and I don't know of any game that does. Do you need specialization to implement engaging and detailed PvE content? Yes, and I don't know of any game that has succeeded otherwise.
I see, so "engaging and detailed PvE content" is...
Tank: taunt taunt taunt
DPS: fireball fireball fireball
Healer: heal heal heal
What are you proposing? Turn the game into Call of Duty? Yes, Call of Duty is fun, but it doesn't need to be massive.
It's truely excrutiating, the lack of ability for most MMO players to think outside of the box. It's truely apparent how levels and classes are drilled into the head of people. Nobody seems to care about fantasy realism, when they are too busy running on the treadmill for that new leet ring or weapon on some WoW clone.
I have/had high hopes for Darkfall, albeit Aventurine seems like they have no idea what their doing. I have seen a few Skill based MMO's in my time, UO, DF, and I guess EVE. All the others follow a holy trinity for some god aweful reason.
Can anyone truely explain to me why they like things like that? Why does anyone want to be pigeon holed into a "Tank" class. Last time i checked, I was learning accounting and marketing, then thought, to myself "self, I want to learn to program" Then I thought, "It would be nice if I could repair vehicles. Humans have the ability to learn a VAST amount of skills, not just hit attack button, make armor, gather ore. Whipdefreakingdo, that has a whole lot of depth.
I have played countless MMO's over the past 10 years, and I just can't do it anymore, All i do in these games is grab a sword, or cast a fireball, kill a goblin, get stronger, kill bigger goblin, get stronger kill elite goblin, rinse repeat, Hit cap lvl, Kill epic goblin, hope to get loot, Kill epic goblin, Get loot, Kill epic goblin get more loot, finish epic loot set, Kill even bigger goblins, rinse repeat.
If you find that treadmill at all interesting, you should all be psychologicaly checked out, because you are all victims of a skinner's box
Games right now lack any sort of FANTASY realism.
Is it so hard to ask for a game that *Gasp* has a dynamic story.
Has a dynamic world that actually can be changed and affected by player actions, for better or worse.
Has unique bosses. Seriously guys, If I kill Malygos, they how the fuck is he back alive every week?
Has a realistic loot system. If i kill a freak cow, it better drop EVERYTHING that a cow would be, hoofs, meat, hide, and not sometimes, ALL THE TIME.
Has a realistic economy, The auction house doesn't count. Has a circular, not open-ended economy, If you dont know what I'm talking about go take a macro-economics class.
Has a realistic combat system. I mean seriously WTF are hit points?
Has some AI that could remotely out think a child with down sydrome, or even a normal person.
I could go on and on and on, but ill stop there... for now
It's funny, most sandbox pvp games seem great, as does darkfall, I myself am a PVP person, Not because I enjoy ganking, (infact I hate the whole idea of ganking) but because I cant put myself through fighting another pve monster. I Made a macro back in the wayday of TBC to kill raid bosses with my belkin n52. I hit the button and my character just shot frostbolts untill the raid mob was dead, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, mana gem, 2 ,2 , 2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 , evocate 2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 , invis for agrro 2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2
I usually went and watched tv or something.
But hey, I understand my roommate still plays wow, and he enjoys it, even says the monsters are difficult. It pretty much concreted the idea that i thought he was mentally challenged all this time. I didn't think people could be so bad, no wonder you people stay out of pvp. I got him to admit that he sucked and thats why he doesnt pvp.
It's funny, most sandbox pvp games seem great, as does darkfall, I myself am a PVP person, Not because I enjoy ganking, (infact I hate the whole idea of ganking) but because I cant put myself through fighting another pve monster.
Ok I'm done ranting
Ok, go play Darkfall. Don't forget to macro your spells up.
I think one thing this thread forgets is there will always be new players that have never done the Holy Trinity before.
They're born all the times. They are called babies. Then they grow up into little gamers.
A lot of 30+ gamers likely played pen and paper D&D style games that had class roles growing up.
Class roles are the base of fantasy from J.R Tolkien and other original fantasy literature it seems.
Always an archer, a warrior, a wizard and some sort of oracle or healy type person running around together.
Even look at the 3 class games like Guantlet - Fighter, Archer and Mage still different type of classes.
Even in skill based games, you end up with loose classes, if you will. If I spend all my points in fire magic and intelligence, I basically created a wizard that doesn't have that 'class' name.
Why is this form of group combat an automatic feature of practically every MMO, especially fantasy MMOs. There are so many other alternatives. I have ideas. Let's hear yours first.
Seriously my alternative is simply not going with the holy trinity, I group for the fun it provides aswell the challenge I can face, which does NOT mean that going into a instance with the holy trinity is not fun as I am sure that is also fun else people won't be doing that, but never have I made groups that consisted out of the basic setup, to me it's far more challenging to make a group regardless what prof/skill they have, aslong they have the proper lvl to enter and go into a dungeon/instance.
I also try when possible to go into a dungeon/instance at a lower lvl group or the apropriat lvl to enter such instance. I am not so much a play it safe and easy type of player, there for I myself have no need to have the holo trinity in a group.
Thats my alternative as I know to many people/players/gamers rely on the holy trinity and when a game does not offer that many dislike or seem to dislike it.
Can we at least agree that you don't need specialization (much less the "holy trinity") to have cooperative, team/group oriented gameplay? I mean if nothing else, can we at least put that little fallacy of rationalization to rest?
What do you define as "cooperative, team/group oriented gameplay?" Do you need specialization for playing with a few friends? No, and I don't know of any game that does. Do you need specialization to implement engaging and detailed PvE content? Yes, and I don't know of any game that has succeeded otherwise.
I see, so "engaging and detailed PvE content" is...
Tank: taunt taunt taunt
DPS: fireball fireball fireball
Healer: heal heal heal
What are you proposing? Turn the game into Call of Duty? Yes, Call of Duty is fun, but it doesn't need to be massive.
Like most MMOs need to be? Unless you're a die-hard, mega-raid enthusiast, how often do you team up with more than a dozen people at any given time for PvE content?
Let's be honest here. With a few notable exceptions, the genuine value of "massive" is questionable at best, if not ridiculously blown out of proportion.
Can we at least agree that you don't need specialization (much less the "holy trinity") to have cooperative, team/group oriented gameplay? I mean if nothing else, can we at least put that little fallacy of rationalization to rest?
What do you define as "cooperative, team/group oriented gameplay?" Do you need specialization for playing with a few friends? No, and I don't know of any game that does. Do you need specialization to implement engaging and detailed PvE content? Yes, and I don't know of any game that has succeeded otherwise.
I see, so "engaging and detailed PvE content" is...
Tank: taunt taunt taunt
DPS: fireball fireball fireball
Healer: heal heal heal
What are you proposing? Turn the game into Call of Duty? Yes, Call of Duty is fun, but it doesn't need to be massive.
Like most MMOs need to be? Unless you're a die-hard, mega-raid enthusiast, how often do you team up with more than a dozen people at any given time for PvE content?
Let's be honest here. With a few notable exceptions, the genuine value of "massive" is questionable at best, if not ridiculously blown out of proportion.
Well in WAR in tier 1 and 2s when the game came out i found myself teaming with PQ/RvR WBs with dozen+ people almost all the time, but things sadly changed after tier 3s/couple weeks after release...
I'm not going to read every reply, but I see a lot of people saying "the holy trinity is fine." Clearly the original poster doesn't agree, so I don't really see why you're wasting your time trying to tell them that it's fun or the best solution. I think maybe they're seeing what other people think about different options that could work instead of just waiting for devs to shovel the next heap of crap they call innovation into our mouths.
Can we at least agree that you don't need specialization (much less the "holy trinity") to have cooperative, team/group oriented gameplay? I mean if nothing else, can we at least put that little fallacy of rationalization to rest?
What do you define as "cooperative, team/group oriented gameplay?" Do you need specialization for playing with a few friends? No, and I don't know of any game that does. Do you need specialization to implement engaging and detailed PvE content? Yes, and I don't know of any game that has succeeded otherwise.
I see, so "engaging and detailed PvE content" is...
Tank: taunt taunt taunt
DPS: fireball fireball fireball
Healer: heal heal heal
What are you proposing? Turn the game into Call of Duty? Yes, Call of Duty is fun, but it doesn't need to be massive.
Like most MMOs need to be? Unless you're a die-hard, mega-raid enthusiast, how often do you team up with more than a dozen people at any given time for PvE content?
Let's be honest here. With a few notable exceptions, the genuine value of "massive" is questionable at best, if not ridiculously blown out of proportion.
I don't think that's accurate. In Call of Duty or Battlefield there is no need for "Massive" because there is no persistence. There is never a need, IMO, for persistence in a FIrst Person Shooter game. The game is decided by twitch skills, not gear.
You can't have both. EITHER the character decides the battle, or the player twitch skills. If player twitch skills, then gear doesn't really matter, and there is little need for persistence.
In an MMORPG the CHARACTER matters, not the player, so you need persistence, You can roam from zone to zone and meet people in all those zones (or areas if the game world is zoneless) or like in DAoC you have people to PvE with, and at the same time in the same world tehre are poeple to PVP with. In fact the PvP'ers can call on the PVE'ers to drop what they are doign and go PvP.
No need for that in an FPS game. Log on and shoot peop;le. If that's what you want, again I suggest Call of Duty, adn Battlefield, both great FPS games.
I really dont' think making them massive would help them be any more fun.
Shrinking down an MMORPG to a lobby game, does make it less fun, witness Guild WArs.
A lot of 30+ gamers likely played pen and paper D&D style games that had class roles growing up. Class roles are the base of fantasy from J.R Tolkien and other original fantasy literature it seems. Always an archer, a warrior, a wizard and some sort of oracle or healy type person running around together. Even look at the 3 class games like Guantlet - Fighter, Archer and Mage still different type of classes. Even in skill based games, you end up with loose classes, if you will. If I spend all my points in fire magic and intelligence, I basically created a wizard that doesn't have that 'class' name.
well i grew up with pen & paper d&d some 25 years back and i have to say that both as a dungeon master or as player i never saw it a given neccessity to have certain classes in game.
if i had 5 people on my table that wanted to play bards, rogues and wizards id tell them its prolly tough without cleric and thief but in the end the adventure would still work somehow just more difficult. in typical mmos you couldnt even go out wo a tank/ healer.
and if i remember tolkien right, they didnt really need specialists either. sure in the "little hobbit" they needed a hobbit as thief but they didnt spend their days in the pony waiting for a buffer/ tank/ healer to log on.
atm i enjoy playing tcos. im only mid level but it feels to me that any kind of combination works in group play.
i played together with 2 fellow rogues and still we managed. its different then playing with a mage or warrior in group but trying out different combinations is fun as well.
i suspect the trinity of healer/tank/dps is not so much a demand of the players but an easy way for devs to make quests/ adventures a more complex challenge then tank draws agro, healer heals tank, dps does damage on every single encounter.
if your bored, visit my blog at: http://craylon.wordpress.com/ dealing with the look of mmos with the nvidia 3d vision glasses
Every MMO has some semblance of a tank, some semblance of a healer, and of course some DPS if it has any significant focus on PvE at all. Its a pretty basic concept. Say 10 mobs versus 10 players. 10 players all hit one mob. Mob dies quick. All 10 mobs hit one player. Playe dies quick. This continues until one side has depleted the more significant threats of the other. Sure, it may be fun for the one player who lived through it all, but the other 9 are stuck on the ground dead due to some ridiculous mechanic. So, how do you fix it?
Please, read first, then post. I've already given several counterexamples to your claim.
The most obvious counterexample is boarding combat in Puzzle Pirates. There, you can only have one drop hit you per piece that you place. If all the enemy mobs attack one player at once, he can go slow and take quite a while to place enough pieces for enough hits to get through to kill him. Meanwhile, the rest of his team can attack the mobs unmolested. By the time that one player dies, a large fraction of the enemy mobs could be dead and the battle well in hand. Of course, the AI is that mobs don't all attack one player at once, because it would be so easy to kill them if they did.
Guild Wars doesn't use the standard system, either. There, the solution is to throw some quick heals or temporary buffs to the player under attack to keep him alive. If the mobs are all melee, they can be slowed enough to allow him to get away. If ranged, he can dodge back and forth to avoid most of the attacks. Of course, if the mobs are melee, anyone that doesn't have that good of armor can stay back during the pull, so that the mobs pulled will attack someone with heavier armor because he's closer.
Believe me I plan on it, not because its going to be the OMFGWTFBBQ god of all games, just because it seems to be the best thing out there, depending on their failed launch
I don't fail to realize that, I realize that there is about 9 million people that play WOW with it being their first MMO, My Ex-GF is hooked to WoW like heroin. They just don't know any better, and thats fine, if you think wow is that innovative, and sweet then play it by all means. But I have played enough EQ-clones in my wayday, to be sick of them.
So dude, when WoW or whatever game you play gets boring from doing the same shit a million times, and trust me it will, when the thrill of your first MMO wears off, then we can talk. I'll teach you a few things about being out-side the box
And it worked for D&D just great 30 years ago. Is it too much to ask for some evolution in gaming?
I'm not asking for the hammer to come and destroy the holy trinity, I realize that people for some odd reason like that model. Puzzels the hell out of me, but its not really nessesary for me to understand.
All I ask is tolerance to the idea of more sandbox games in the industry, You guys get what you want, why can't I?
As for your last point, I'm completely ok for that, but just comparing a skill based vs level based isnt much to go on
Slapping a skill based system in WOW would not automatically make it a good game, far from it in my eyes
Every MMO has some semblance of a tank, some semblance of a healer, and of course some DPS if it has any significant focus on PvE at all. Its a pretty basic concept. Say 10 mobs versus 10 players. 10 players all hit one mob. Mob dies quick. All 10 mobs hit one player. Playe dies quick. This continues until one side has depleted the more significant threats of the other. Sure, it may be fun for the one player who lived through it all, but the other 9 are stuck on the ground dead due to some ridiculous mechanic. So, how do you fix it?
Please, read first, then post. I've already given several counterexamples to your claim.
The most obvious counterexample is boarding combat in Puzzle Pirates. There, you can only have one drop hit you per piece that you place. If all the enemy mobs attack one player at once, he can go slow and take quite a while to place enough pieces for enough hits to get through to kill him. Meanwhile, the rest of his team can attack the mobs unmolested. By the time that one player dies, a large fraction of the enemy mobs could be dead and the battle well in hand. Of course, the AI is that mobs don't all attack one player at once, because it would be so easy to kill them if they did.
Guild Wars doesn't use the standard system, either. There, the solution is to throw some quick heals or temporary buffs to the player under attack to keep him alive. If the mobs are all melee, they can be slowed enough to allow him to get away. If ranged, he can dodge back and forth to avoid most of the attacks. Of course, if the mobs are melee, anyone that doesn't have that good of armor can stay back during the pull, so that the mobs pulled will attack someone with heavier armor because he's closer.
I read your post, and even understood it, but apparently you missed part of mine. The Puzzle Pirates solution you identified doesn't work in all cases. Anyone who attempted to build a game around the concept of Puzzle Pirates could make it work, but how would you adapt that to a real time 3d game?
Second, you specifically mention "Healing" in your Guild Wars write up in the post I'm quoting... Thereby, defeating your own argument. Not to mention, what happens if you CAN'T slow mobs down enough to get away as a ranged character? And your last statement is the very definition of tank, someone who is drawing the attention of the other mobs so that others who can't absorb the damage arne't getting hit. You've literally made my case for me.
I think too many of you are stuck on the idea that someone mentioned (hell, even replied to my post directly about) a Tank = Taunt, DPS = Damage skill, Healer = Heal. There is absolutely no reason a healer can't be someone who merely prevents damage being done to the party instead of absorbing it. The effect is the same end result, you just don't call someone who does the second a healer when in reality they're effectively healing people by preventing damage.
Likewise, a Tank doesn't have to be someone who sits in the front row and uses some random skill that forces mobs attention, all a "Tank" needs to do (in order to be a tank) is be able to survive taking hits from the mob when someone else can't and some way of keeping that mobs attention. Which doens't always require the use of a taunt like ability.
If you read and understood my post explaining that Puzzle Pirates has no concept of tanking, then why did you afterwards assert that every MMO--including Puzzle Pirates--has a concept of tanking and healing? You seem to now be conceding the point.
A "tank" in Guild Wars does not have any means to keep a mob's attention. At most, he can force mobs off of some other player by body blocking them. The ally can run through the "tank" (which could well be a minion that will die in two hits), but mobs cannot, so mobs cannot chase the fleeing ally.
But that is not a particularly important way of getting mobs off of a player in Guild Wars. Rather, the main key is that every character--not merely every class, but every character of every class--has to be able to take quite a few hits when called upon. A timely use of a blocking or +armor skill, or a potent protective skill from another class (e.g., spirit bond or weapon of warding) can do this.
If it's really important to get mobs off of a player, the preferred means of doing this is with area of effect/damage over time attacks. Mobs see that if they stand there attacking a player, they're going to take a ton of damage from breath of fire or sandstorm or whatever. The AI is built such that the mobs scatter out of the area attack, thus leaving the player alone. On my monk, I'd sometimes carry kirin's wrath for this very reason.
Alternatively, area defensive skills can get mobs off of a player. Enfeebling blood, ward against melee, eruption, and some others can (in some cases) ensure that even if the mobs do stand there hacking away at a player, they don't do that much damage.
In order to say that Guild Wars has tanking in the usual sense, you'd basically have to claim that every class is a tank class (not much of a holy trinity there), and that a lot of spells not designed to pull mobs to you constitute tanking.
Guild Wars does have healing, of course. But your claim was that every MMO has tanking and healing, not just that it has either one or the other. And incidentally, every class in Guild Wars is also a damage dealer, and in the right circumstances (which vary by class, of course), capable of doing more damage than most other classes.
Theres a reason why so many people look for PvP in an MMO...because PvE (for the most part) is repetitive, boring, and easy. Of course, we all know the reason for that is the retard-level AI that falls for the same tank-and-spank strategy every time. Does the same strategy work in PvP? Hell no. For one, only the noobs will stand there, hitting the un-killable tank in the face while his healers healing him and his nukers are WTF pwning every thing in sight. And, on top of that, other players actually force you to react and adapt, rather than following a simple plan.
So what I'm trying to say is, if you make PvE less predictable and more varied, you won't be stuck with the same holy trinity dominating every encounter.
Comments
The short, honest answer here: because people like their MMORPGs to be boring and predictable.
Aside from that, I agree with some of the earlier posters. If you want to change the trinity you have to change the AI and aggro mechanics. Personally, I'd go for some thing more closely resembles PvP.
Can we at least agree that you don't need specialization (much less the "holy trinity") to have cooperative, team/group oriented gameplay?
I mean if nothing else, can we at least put that little fallacy of rationalization to rest?
What do you define as "cooperative, team/group oriented gameplay?" Do you need specialization for playing with a few friends? No, and I don't know of any game that does. Do you need specialization to implement engaging and detailed PvE content? Yes, and I don't know of any game that has succeeded otherwise.
I think i am going to talk a little bit more about my cox exp.We had a team made up of
Fire/Kin controller-dps/buffer
Dark Melee/ Dark Armor scrapper- dps
Earth/Storm controller- CC class
Ice/Ene Blaster-Dps
Assault/Devices-Dps
Illusion/Kin controller-buffer,CC
We had no tanker(tanking class) or defender(healing class).We where a very effective team because the buffer class in coh is a effective as heal class, why do you have to heal when you can cut down damage every body takes or the damage of the boss gives.We survive without a tank because the controllers especially the earth/storm could keep the big attacker of dps class and scrapper in pinch could act like a tank.
The point being the game is built around the trinity but support classes(cc,buffer,debuffer,off tanks) where actually good.You weren't force to use trinity you could actually use something different.The biggest key was break the healer dependence most class in CoH are hybrids that carry some form self dependence meaning healers don't to babysit for the whole fight.Even mmo use the old formula can give more importance to the "support classes".
I'm still waiting for UO without the OMFG ffa pvp rules; if you don't like it your a pansy carebear mentality.
DDO and Guildwars don't do a bad job of not forcing the holy trinity down your throat.
Also If you have aggro in the game,You will probably have the trinity in it .Game that use cover,enemy placement and enemy formation types would be less dependent on the trinity system.
What do you define as "cooperative, team/group oriented gameplay?" Do you need specialization for playing with a few friends? No, and I don't know of any game that does. Do you need specialization to implement engaging and detailed PvE content? Yes, and I don't know of any game that has succeeded otherwise.
I see, so "engaging and detailed PvE content" is...
Tank: taunt taunt taunt
DPS: fireball fireball fireball
Healer: heal heal heal
What do you define as "cooperative, team/group oriented gameplay?" Do you need specialization for playing with a few friends? No, and I don't know of any game that does. Do you need specialization to implement engaging and detailed PvE content? Yes, and I don't know of any game that has succeeded otherwise.
I see, so "engaging and detailed PvE content" is...
Tank: taunt taunt taunt
DPS: fireball fireball fireball
Healer: heal heal heal
What are you proposing? Turn the game into Call of Duty? Yes, Call of Duty is fun, but it doesn't need to be massive.
It's truely excrutiating, the lack of ability for most MMO players to think outside of the box. It's truely apparent how levels and classes are drilled into the head of people. Nobody seems to care about fantasy realism, when they are too busy running on the treadmill for that new leet ring or weapon on some WoW clone.
I have/had high hopes for Darkfall, albeit Aventurine seems like they have no idea what their doing. I have seen a few Skill based MMO's in my time, UO, DF, and I guess EVE. All the others follow a holy trinity for some god aweful reason.
Can anyone truely explain to me why they like things like that? Why does anyone want to be pigeon holed into a "Tank" class. Last time i checked, I was learning accounting and marketing, then thought, to myself "self, I want to learn to program" Then I thought, "It would be nice if I could repair vehicles. Humans have the ability to learn a VAST amount of skills, not just hit attack button, make armor, gather ore. Whipdefreakingdo, that has a whole lot of depth.
I have played countless MMO's over the past 10 years, and I just can't do it anymore, All i do in these games is grab a sword, or cast a fireball, kill a goblin, get stronger, kill bigger goblin, get stronger kill elite goblin, rinse repeat, Hit cap lvl, Kill epic goblin, hope to get loot, Kill epic goblin, Get loot, Kill epic goblin get more loot, finish epic loot set, Kill even bigger goblins, rinse repeat.
If you find that treadmill at all interesting, you should all be psychologicaly checked out, because you are all victims of a skinner's box
Games right now lack any sort of FANTASY realism.
Is it so hard to ask for a game that *Gasp* has a dynamic story.
Has a dynamic world that actually can be changed and affected by player actions, for better or worse.
Has unique bosses. Seriously guys, If I kill Malygos, they how the fuck is he back alive every week?
Has a realistic loot system. If i kill a freak cow, it better drop EVERYTHING that a cow would be, hoofs, meat, hide, and not sometimes, ALL THE TIME.
Has a realistic economy, The auction house doesn't count. Has a circular, not open-ended economy, If you dont know what I'm talking about go take a macro-economics class.
Has a realistic combat system. I mean seriously WTF are hit points?
Has some AI that could remotely out think a child with down sydrome, or even a normal person.
I could go on and on and on, but ill stop there... for now
It's funny, most sandbox pvp games seem great, as does darkfall, I myself am a PVP person, Not because I enjoy ganking, (infact I hate the whole idea of ganking) but because I cant put myself through fighting another pve monster. I Made a macro back in the wayday of TBC to kill raid bosses with my belkin n52. I hit the button and my character just shot frostbolts untill the raid mob was dead, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, mana gem, 2 ,2 , 2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 , evocate 2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 , invis for agrro 2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2 ,2
I usually went and watched tv or something.
But hey, I understand my roommate still plays wow, and he enjoys it, even says the monsters are difficult. It pretty much concreted the idea that i thought he was mentally challenged all this time. I didn't think people could be so bad, no wonder you people stay out of pvp. I got him to admit that he sucked and thats why he doesnt pvp.
Ok I'm done ranting
Ok, go play Darkfall. Don't forget to macro your spells up.
I think one thing this thread forgets is there will always be new players that have never done the Holy Trinity before.
They're born all the times. They are called babies. Then they grow up into little gamers.
A lot of 30+ gamers likely played pen and paper D&D style games that had class roles growing up.
Class roles are the base of fantasy from J.R Tolkien and other original fantasy literature it seems.
Always an archer, a warrior, a wizard and some sort of oracle or healy type person running around together.
Even look at the 3 class games like Guantlet - Fighter, Archer and Mage still different type of classes.
Even in skill based games, you end up with loose classes, if you will. If I spend all my points in fire magic and intelligence, I basically created a wizard that doesn't have that 'class' name.
Seriously my alternative is simply not going with the holy trinity, I group for the fun it provides aswell the challenge I can face, which does NOT mean that going into a instance with the holy trinity is not fun as I am sure that is also fun else people won't be doing that, but never have I made groups that consisted out of the basic setup, to me it's far more challenging to make a group regardless what prof/skill they have, aslong they have the proper lvl to enter and go into a dungeon/instance.
I also try when possible to go into a dungeon/instance at a lower lvl group or the apropriat lvl to enter such instance. I am not so much a play it safe and easy type of player, there for I myself have no need to have the holo trinity in a group.
Thats my alternative as I know to many people/players/gamers rely on the holy trinity and when a game does not offer that many dislike or seem to dislike it.
What do you define as "cooperative, team/group oriented gameplay?" Do you need specialization for playing with a few friends? No, and I don't know of any game that does. Do you need specialization to implement engaging and detailed PvE content? Yes, and I don't know of any game that has succeeded otherwise.
I see, so "engaging and detailed PvE content" is...
Tank: taunt taunt taunt
DPS: fireball fireball fireball
Healer: heal heal heal
What are you proposing? Turn the game into Call of Duty? Yes, Call of Duty is fun, but it doesn't need to be massive.
Like most MMOs need to be? Unless you're a die-hard, mega-raid enthusiast, how often do you team up with more than a dozen people at any given time for PvE content?
Let's be honest here. With a few notable exceptions, the genuine value of "massive" is questionable at best, if not ridiculously blown out of proportion.
What do you define as "cooperative, team/group oriented gameplay?" Do you need specialization for playing with a few friends? No, and I don't know of any game that does. Do you need specialization to implement engaging and detailed PvE content? Yes, and I don't know of any game that has succeeded otherwise.
I see, so "engaging and detailed PvE content" is...
Tank: taunt taunt taunt
DPS: fireball fireball fireball
Healer: heal heal heal
What are you proposing? Turn the game into Call of Duty? Yes, Call of Duty is fun, but it doesn't need to be massive.
Like most MMOs need to be? Unless you're a die-hard, mega-raid enthusiast, how often do you team up with more than a dozen people at any given time for PvE content?
Let's be honest here. With a few notable exceptions, the genuine value of "massive" is questionable at best, if not ridiculously blown out of proportion.
Well in WAR in tier 1 and 2s when the game came out i found myself teaming with PQ/RvR WBs with dozen+ people almost all the time, but things sadly changed after tier 3s/couple weeks after release...
I'm not going to read every reply, but I see a lot of people saying "the holy trinity is fine." Clearly the original poster doesn't agree, so I don't really see why you're wasting your time trying to tell them that it's fun or the best solution. I think maybe they're seeing what other people think about different options that could work instead of just waiting for devs to shovel the next heap of crap they call innovation into our mouths.
What do you define as "cooperative, team/group oriented gameplay?" Do you need specialization for playing with a few friends? No, and I don't know of any game that does. Do you need specialization to implement engaging and detailed PvE content? Yes, and I don't know of any game that has succeeded otherwise.
I see, so "engaging and detailed PvE content" is...
Tank: taunt taunt taunt
DPS: fireball fireball fireball
Healer: heal heal heal
What are you proposing? Turn the game into Call of Duty? Yes, Call of Duty is fun, but it doesn't need to be massive.
Like most MMOs need to be? Unless you're a die-hard, mega-raid enthusiast, how often do you team up with more than a dozen people at any given time for PvE content?
Let's be honest here. With a few notable exceptions, the genuine value of "massive" is questionable at best, if not ridiculously blown out of proportion.
I don't think that's accurate. In Call of Duty or Battlefield there is no need for "Massive" because there is no persistence. There is never a need, IMO, for persistence in a FIrst Person Shooter game. The game is decided by twitch skills, not gear.
You can't have both. EITHER the character decides the battle, or the player twitch skills. If player twitch skills, then gear doesn't really matter, and there is little need for persistence.
In an MMORPG the CHARACTER matters, not the player, so you need persistence, You can roam from zone to zone and meet people in all those zones (or areas if the game world is zoneless) or like in DAoC you have people to PvE with, and at the same time in the same world tehre are poeple to PVP with. In fact the PvP'ers can call on the PVE'ers to drop what they are doign and go PvP.
No need for that in an FPS game. Log on and shoot peop;le. If that's what you want, again I suggest Call of Duty, adn Battlefield, both great FPS games.
I really dont' think making them massive would help them be any more fun.
Shrinking down an MMORPG to a lobby game, does make it less fun, witness Guild WArs.
well i grew up with pen & paper d&d some 25 years back and i have to say that both as a dungeon master or as player i never saw it a given neccessity to have certain classes in game.
if i had 5 people on my table that wanted to play bards, rogues and wizards id tell them its prolly tough without cleric and thief but in the end the adventure would still work somehow just more difficult. in typical mmos you couldnt even go out wo a tank/ healer.
and if i remember tolkien right, they didnt really need specialists either. sure in the "little hobbit" they needed a hobbit as thief but they didnt spend their days in the pony waiting for a buffer/ tank/ healer to log on.
atm i enjoy playing tcos. im only mid level but it feels to me that any kind of combination works in group play.
i played together with 2 fellow rogues and still we managed. its different then playing with a mage or warrior in group but trying out different combinations is fun as well.
i suspect the trinity of healer/tank/dps is not so much a demand of the players but an easy way for devs to make quests/ adventures a more complex challenge then tank draws agro, healer heals tank, dps does damage on every single encounter.
if your bored, visit my blog at:
http://craylon.wordpress.com/ dealing with the look of mmos with the nvidia 3d vision glasses
Please, read first, then post. I've already given several counterexamples to your claim.
The most obvious counterexample is boarding combat in Puzzle Pirates. There, you can only have one drop hit you per piece that you place. If all the enemy mobs attack one player at once, he can go slow and take quite a while to place enough pieces for enough hits to get through to kill him. Meanwhile, the rest of his team can attack the mobs unmolested. By the time that one player dies, a large fraction of the enemy mobs could be dead and the battle well in hand. Of course, the AI is that mobs don't all attack one player at once, because it would be so easy to kill them if they did.
Guild Wars doesn't use the standard system, either. There, the solution is to throw some quick heals or temporary buffs to the player under attack to keep him alive. If the mobs are all melee, they can be slowed enough to allow him to get away. If ranged, he can dodge back and forth to avoid most of the attacks. Of course, if the mobs are melee, anyone that doesn't have that good of armor can stay back during the pull, so that the mobs pulled will attack someone with heavier armor because he's closer.
i agree,
just watch a ninja movie, or robin hood or king arthur or....
i doubt any of these waited for their healer/ tank to log in to start their adventure
if your bored, visit my blog at:
http://craylon.wordpress.com/ dealing with the look of mmos with the nvidia 3d vision glasses
Believe me I plan on it, not because its going to be the OMFGWTFBBQ god of all games, just because it seems to be the best thing out there, depending on their failed launch
I don't fail to realize that, I realize that there is about 9 million people that play WOW with it being their first MMO, My Ex-GF is hooked to WoW like heroin. They just don't know any better, and thats fine, if you think wow is that innovative, and sweet then play it by all means. But I have played enough EQ-clones in my wayday, to be sick of them.
So dude, when WoW or whatever game you play gets boring from doing the same shit a million times, and trust me it will, when the thrill of your first MMO wears off, then we can talk. I'll teach you a few things about being out-side the box
And it worked for D&D just great 30 years ago. Is it too much to ask for some evolution in gaming?
I'm not asking for the hammer to come and destroy the holy trinity, I realize that people for some odd reason like that model. Puzzels the hell out of me, but its not really nessesary for me to understand.
All I ask is tolerance to the idea of more sandbox games in the industry, You guys get what you want, why can't I?
As for your last point, I'm completely ok for that, but just comparing a skill based vs level based isnt much to go on
Slapping a skill based system in WOW would not automatically make it a good game, far from it in my eyes
What is your definition of persistance?
A MMOFPS could Vastly work, A dynamic world where you were fighting over territory or varrious other reason. Where you perform missions and so on.
Role playing can take any form, not just fantasy based medevil games.
Please, read first, then post. I've already given several counterexamples to your claim.
The most obvious counterexample is boarding combat in Puzzle Pirates. There, you can only have one drop hit you per piece that you place. If all the enemy mobs attack one player at once, he can go slow and take quite a while to place enough pieces for enough hits to get through to kill him. Meanwhile, the rest of his team can attack the mobs unmolested. By the time that one player dies, a large fraction of the enemy mobs could be dead and the battle well in hand. Of course, the AI is that mobs don't all attack one player at once, because it would be so easy to kill them if they did.
Guild Wars doesn't use the standard system, either. There, the solution is to throw some quick heals or temporary buffs to the player under attack to keep him alive. If the mobs are all melee, they can be slowed enough to allow him to get away. If ranged, he can dodge back and forth to avoid most of the attacks. Of course, if the mobs are melee, anyone that doesn't have that good of armor can stay back during the pull, so that the mobs pulled will attack someone with heavier armor because he's closer.
I read your post, and even understood it, but apparently you missed part of mine. The Puzzle Pirates solution you identified doesn't work in all cases. Anyone who attempted to build a game around the concept of Puzzle Pirates could make it work, but how would you adapt that to a real time 3d game?
Second, you specifically mention "Healing" in your Guild Wars write up in the post I'm quoting... Thereby, defeating your own argument. Not to mention, what happens if you CAN'T slow mobs down enough to get away as a ranged character? And your last statement is the very definition of tank, someone who is drawing the attention of the other mobs so that others who can't absorb the damage arne't getting hit. You've literally made my case for me.
I think too many of you are stuck on the idea that someone mentioned (hell, even replied to my post directly about) a Tank = Taunt, DPS = Damage skill, Healer = Heal. There is absolutely no reason a healer can't be someone who merely prevents damage being done to the party instead of absorbing it. The effect is the same end result, you just don't call someone who does the second a healer when in reality they're effectively healing people by preventing damage.
Likewise, a Tank doesn't have to be someone who sits in the front row and uses some random skill that forces mobs attention, all a "Tank" needs to do (in order to be a tank) is be able to survive taking hits from the mob when someone else can't and some way of keeping that mobs attention. Which doens't always require the use of a taunt like ability.
If you read and understood my post explaining that Puzzle Pirates has no concept of tanking, then why did you afterwards assert that every MMO--including Puzzle Pirates--has a concept of tanking and healing? You seem to now be conceding the point.
A "tank" in Guild Wars does not have any means to keep a mob's attention. At most, he can force mobs off of some other player by body blocking them. The ally can run through the "tank" (which could well be a minion that will die in two hits), but mobs cannot, so mobs cannot chase the fleeing ally.
But that is not a particularly important way of getting mobs off of a player in Guild Wars. Rather, the main key is that every character--not merely every class, but every character of every class--has to be able to take quite a few hits when called upon. A timely use of a blocking or +armor skill, or a potent protective skill from another class (e.g., spirit bond or weapon of warding) can do this.
If it's really important to get mobs off of a player, the preferred means of doing this is with area of effect/damage over time attacks. Mobs see that if they stand there attacking a player, they're going to take a ton of damage from breath of fire or sandstorm or whatever. The AI is built such that the mobs scatter out of the area attack, thus leaving the player alone. On my monk, I'd sometimes carry kirin's wrath for this very reason.
Alternatively, area defensive skills can get mobs off of a player. Enfeebling blood, ward against melee, eruption, and some others can (in some cases) ensure that even if the mobs do stand there hacking away at a player, they don't do that much damage.
In order to say that Guild Wars has tanking in the usual sense, you'd basically have to claim that every class is a tank class (not much of a holy trinity there), and that a lot of spells not designed to pull mobs to you constitute tanking.
Guild Wars does have healing, of course. But your claim was that every MMO has tanking and healing, not just that it has either one or the other. And incidentally, every class in Guild Wars is also a damage dealer, and in the right circumstances (which vary by class, of course), capable of doing more damage than most other classes.
Theres a reason why so many people look for PvP in an MMO...because PvE (for the most part) is repetitive, boring, and easy. Of course, we all know the reason for that is the retard-level AI that falls for the same tank-and-spank strategy every time. Does the same strategy work in PvP? Hell no. For one, only the noobs will stand there, hitting the un-killable tank in the face while his healers healing him and his nukers are WTF pwning every thing in sight. And, on top of that, other players actually force you to react and adapt, rather than following a simple plan.
So what I'm trying to say is, if you make PvE less predictable and more varied, you won't be stuck with the same holy trinity dominating every encounter.