once the exploits are fixed, the gold that was acquired (after a few weeks) wont matter. It will simply jump start the economy... right now there is nothing to buy with whatever gold you acquire anyway, so the stuck monster bug and acid bug might be good for the game anyway, now ppl have shit they can sell in the game and we can start to set up a trading center around the world.
Its people like you who ruin mmo's. Exploits ruin games. Period. There is NO justification.
What you mean to say is exploiting won't ruin your game because you are exploiting and hording all that phat lootz.
The only thing going for Darkfall is they have a single server up. I'd say all the exploiters will be left behind as people migrate to other servers when/if they open.
What are you talking about...? BETA TESTERS warned Aventurine about their laughable AI from the very first day.
Aventurine said not to worry, they don't have it turned on and basically told us to shut up...
This is the game YOU wanted, where something as simple as fighting mobs is an exploit. ROTFL
Hopefully no patch on this issue or wipe, so i can exploit it with 8 of my friends , going to skip creating clan and farm it whenever it's possible till it's fixed.
Originally posted by tejondour Originally posted by Seytan You seem to imply you have quite a bit of knowledge about the AI architecture. Care to elaborate?
It's basically a hybrid of a Quake bot and an Oblivion NPC. Like a Quake bot, it perceives the world using roughly the same data as players receive, and has to conform to the same rules of action (a notable exception is that mobs do not consume arrows, reagents or gear durability, though at some point in the future they may; this is a large part of why the "mobs loot you" mechanic is currently missing). Like an Oblivion NPC, their behavior is modified by a set of weighed desires which change based on environmental factors. Perceiving a player triggers the desire to kill that player (essential mob behavior!), which is balanced against the desire to avoid damage. Being low on health or stamina makes the latter desire more powerful, causing the mob to GTFO, find help, cast a heal, etc. The list is less extensive than Oblivion's (none of the mobs I saw in beta took a lunch break), but it's expandable by nature. The more complex the source of behavior, the harder it is to predict and therefore to control (i.e. make non-spastic), so a shorter list is good for now. Most of the necessary tweaking involves how the mobs try to satisfy their desires. Some of it's excellent: they desire to kill you and not take damage, so they engage at range and dodge your missiles, only closing if you're also dodging or blocking. But if you're close, they know melee is the better damage source. And good lord, can they run. Things like getting stuck in water are caused by not having a functional behavior to match a desire (remember, they use roughly the same control interface as players and obey the same physics, so this is a little trickier than in other MMOs), or possibly having one but not knowing it applies (mob knows to walk on land and to swim in water, does not know shallow water functions as land, tries to swim and fails). Things like running in circles could be a simple loop bug, or it could be a little more complex: a homeostasis of desires, where the mob gets just far enough away to not be scared anymore, turns around, and gets scared again. That sort of thing has to be fixed by smoothing out the state transitions, and might take a lot of fine-tuning to entirely eliminate. If every mob had exactly the same personality it'd be a lot simpler to make it all clean, but they're also trying for some variety... so fixing one doesn't fix another! Mirco, the AI dev, has also been in charge of tweaking spawn rates (and possibly loot?) and I guess they haven't been able to get him enough help to iron all of this out as it arises. I can say that I'm completely ignorant of how long it will really take. Maybe we'll see the truly blatant issues cleaned up within the week with further tweaking to follow, or maybe in a month helpless mobs in water will still be standard gameplay. I do hope it's closer to the former.
Wow - you just made a completely standard and very basic set of AI rules sound more advanced than they are. Congrats!
Using words like 'personality' and 'scared' and 'desires' may even fool some 10 year old uninformed kid or perhaps you're trying to convince yourself into thinking Darkfall MOBS are different in some way to any other software title in the last 15 years. Or maybe you actually believed the total tripe they spouted about the complexity of their AI system? lol
You could of saved yourself a lot of bother by just saying the devs have created standard MOB rule-sets and variables, but have not tested or implemented their application correctly.
There is nothing new or unique about Darkfall MOBS that hasn't been done thousands of times before, unless of course you count the fact that Darkfall MOBS don't work correctly in which case, yes, they have truly achieved something unique in the commercial software market. Comedy MOBS.
once the exploits are fixed, the gold that was acquired (after a few weeks) wont matter. It will simply jump start the economy... right now there is nothing to buy with whatever gold you acquire anyway, so the stuck monster bug and acid bug might be good for the game anyway, now ppl have shit they can sell in the game and we can start to set up a trading center around the world.
Its people like you who ruin mmo's. Exploits ruin games. Period. There is NO justification.
What you mean to say is exploiting won't ruin your game because you are exploiting and hording all that phat lootz.
The only thing going for Darkfall is they have a single server up. I'd say all the exploiters will be left behind as people migrate to other servers when/if they open.
What are you talking about...? BETA TESTERS warned Aventurine about their laughable AI from the very first day.
Aventurine said not to worry, they don't have it turned on and basically told us to shut up...
This is the game YOU wanted, where something as simple as fighting mobs is an exploit. ROTFL
I don't remember them saying anyhting of the sort...
I remember alot of speculation by BETA TESTERS, but no actual comment from the devs.
It's basically a hybrid of a Quake bot and an Oblivion NPC.
Like a Quake bot, it perceives the world using roughly the same data as players receive, and has to conform to the same rules of action (a notable exception is that mobs do not consume arrows, reagents or gear durability, though at some point in the future they may; this is a large part of why the "mobs loot you" mechanic is currently missing).
Like an Oblivion NPC, their behavior is modified by a set of weighed desires which change based on environmental factors. Perceiving a player triggers the desire to kill that player (essential mob behavior!), which is balanced against the desire to avoid damage. Being low on health or stamina makes the latter desire more powerful, causing the mob to GTFO, find help, cast a heal, etc. The list is less extensive than Oblivion's (none of the mobs I saw in beta took a lunch break), but it's expandable by nature. The more complex the source of behavior, the harder it is to predict and therefore to control (i.e. make non-spastic), so a shorter list is good for now.
Most of the necessary tweaking involves how the mobs try to satisfy their desires. Some of it's excellent: they desire to kill you and not take damage, so they engage at range and dodge your missiles, only closing if you're also dodging or blocking. But if you're close, they know melee is the better damage source. And good lord, can they run.
Things like getting stuck in water are caused by not having a functional behavior to match a desire (remember, they use roughly the same control interface as players and obey the same physics, so this is a little trickier than in other MMOs), or possibly having one but not knowing it applies (mob knows to walk on land and to swim in water, does not know shallow water functions as land, tries to swim and fails).
Things like running in circles could be a simple loop bug, or it could be a little more complex: a homeostasis of desires, where the mob gets just far enough away to not be scared anymore, turns around, and gets scared again. That sort of thing has to be fixed by smoothing out the state transitions, and might take a lot of fine-tuning to entirely eliminate.
If every mob had exactly the same personality it'd be a lot simpler to make it all clean, but they're also trying for some variety... so fixing one doesn't fix another! Mirco, the AI dev, has also been in charge of tweaking spawn rates (and possibly loot?) and I guess they haven't been able to get him enough help to iron all of this out as it arises. I can say that I'm completely ignorant of how long it will really take. Maybe we'll see the truly blatant issues cleaned up within the week with further tweaking to follow, or maybe in a month helpless mobs in water will still be standard gameplay. I do hope it's closer to the former.
Quake AI isn't that much different from what most MMO's use today. Go play any version of Quake and you can see this. It's the single reason the quake series was always better online than in single player. Now the AI in the Doom series, atleast the new one is decent. But quake AI, hardly anything to brag about. It's funny you brought this up though. When I played the few hours I got to test the game back in beta, I had just got done playing warsow. And the first thing that popped in my head was how similar they feel, minus the speed of course.
Btw, warsow is fps built off a modified verson of the quake2 engine, a great game ta boot!
Originally posted by Vortigon There is nothing new or unique about Darkfall MOBS that hasn't been done thousands of times before, unless of course you count the fact that Darkfall MOBS don't work correctly in which case, yes, they have truly achieved something unique in the commercial software market. Comedy MOBS.
Builshit. None of the individual techniques are new, but the total framework is far beyond anything seen in an MMO, and the server architecture required to handle it is why NPC guards are out and a meaningful part of the launch issues.
If you think that a scripted trigger to run when a mob reaches 10% health is similar in complexity to a weighted priority system in which mobs might stick around longer if they've got a healer or several allies, you're a shallow douche, but sure, they're topologically similar. But I defy you to show me a single MMO in which the mobs have to perform ballistics and motion-lead calculations, or for that matter know about directions other than "toward" and "away."
Originally posted by Vortigon There is nothing new or unique about Darkfall MOBS that hasn't been done thousands of times before, unless of course you count the fact that Darkfall MOBS don't work correctly in which case, yes, they have truly achieved something unique in the commercial software market. Comedy MOBS.
Builshit. None of the individual techniques are new, but the total framework is far beyond anything seen in an MMO, and the server architecture required to handle it is why NPC guards are out and a meaningful part of the launch issues.
If you think that a scripted trigger to run when a mob reaches 10% health is similar in complexity to a weighted priority system in which mobs might stick around longer if they've got a healer or several allies, you're a shallow douche, but sure, they're topologically similar. But I defy you to show me a single MMO in which the mobs have to perform ballistics and motion-lead calculations, or for that matter know about directions other than "toward" and "away."
No hes right thats not a very complex AI. Actualy the hardest part of AI is having it interact with the evironment.
See thats why player combat is better than AI. Cause AI is easy to trick. As you can see with the exploits of getting them in water or stuck in a corner. Thats why most mmos say its a no no to jump in a tree or on a rock and shot mobs. Thats why some mmos put in a reset, you know when the mob gets insta full health immunity and goes back to its original cords.
The reason why most AI in mmos are simple is due to design. Not because its hard to do. Left 4 Dead has some good AI but any AI can be tricked. Except Fighting AI. Cause there just cheap. To this day I hate MBison and his uber cheapness.
Comments
OP needs to condense his post into a more manageable size :-)
poll results are interesting
www.HARMguild.com
Its people like you who ruin mmo's. Exploits ruin games. Period. There is NO justification.
What you mean to say is exploiting won't ruin your game because you are exploiting and hording all that phat lootz.
The only thing going for Darkfall is they have a single server up. I'd say all the exploiters will be left behind as people migrate to other servers when/if they open.
What are you talking about...? BETA TESTERS warned Aventurine about their laughable AI from the very first day.
Aventurine said not to worry, they don't have it turned on and basically told us to shut up...
This is the game YOU wanted, where something as simple as fighting mobs is an exploit. ROTFL
____________________________
Hopefully no patch on this issue or wipe, so i can exploit it with 8 of my friends , going to skip creating clan and farm it whenever it's possible till it's fixed.
Like a Quake bot, it perceives the world using roughly the same data as players receive, and has to conform to the same rules of action (a notable exception is that mobs do not consume arrows, reagents or gear durability, though at some point in the future they may; this is a large part of why the "mobs loot you" mechanic is currently missing).
Like an Oblivion NPC, their behavior is modified by a set of weighed desires which change based on environmental factors. Perceiving a player triggers the desire to kill that player (essential mob behavior!), which is balanced against the desire to avoid damage. Being low on health or stamina makes the latter desire more powerful, causing the mob to GTFO, find help, cast a heal, etc. The list is less extensive than Oblivion's (none of the mobs I saw in beta took a lunch break), but it's expandable by nature. The more complex the source of behavior, the harder it is to predict and therefore to control (i.e. make non-spastic), so a shorter list is good for now.
Most of the necessary tweaking involves how the mobs try to satisfy their desires. Some of it's excellent: they desire to kill you and not take damage, so they engage at range and dodge your missiles, only closing if you're also dodging or blocking. But if you're close, they know melee is the better damage source. And good lord, can they run.
Things like getting stuck in water are caused by not having a functional behavior to match a desire (remember, they use roughly the same control interface as players and obey the same physics, so this is a little trickier than in other MMOs), or possibly having one but not knowing it applies (mob knows to walk on land and to swim in water, does not know shallow water functions as land, tries to swim and fails).
Things like running in circles could be a simple loop bug, or it could be a little more complex: a homeostasis of desires, where the mob gets just far enough away to not be scared anymore, turns around, and gets scared again. That sort of thing has to be fixed by smoothing out the state transitions, and might take a lot of fine-tuning to entirely eliminate.
If every mob had exactly the same personality it'd be a lot simpler to make it all clean, but they're also trying for some variety... so fixing one doesn't fix another! Mirco, the AI dev, has also been in charge of tweaking spawn rates (and possibly loot?) and I guess they haven't been able to get him enough help to iron all of this out as it arises. I can say that I'm completely ignorant of how long it will really take. Maybe we'll see the truly blatant issues cleaned up within the week with further tweaking to follow, or maybe in a month helpless mobs in water will still be standard gameplay. I do hope it's closer to the former.
Wow - you just made a completely standard and very basic set of AI rules sound more advanced than they are. Congrats!
Using words like 'personality' and 'scared' and 'desires' may even fool some 10 year old uninformed kid or perhaps you're trying to convince yourself into thinking Darkfall MOBS are different in some way to any other software title in the last 15 years. Or maybe you actually believed the total tripe they spouted about the complexity of their AI system? lol
You could of saved yourself a lot of bother by just saying the devs have created standard MOB rule-sets and variables, but have not tested or implemented their application correctly.
There is nothing new or unique about Darkfall MOBS that hasn't been done thousands of times before, unless of course you count the fact that Darkfall MOBS don't work correctly in which case, yes, they have truly achieved something unique in the commercial software market. Comedy MOBS.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Its people like you who ruin mmo's. Exploits ruin games. Period. There is NO justification.
What you mean to say is exploiting won't ruin your game because you are exploiting and hording all that phat lootz.
The only thing going for Darkfall is they have a single server up. I'd say all the exploiters will be left behind as people migrate to other servers when/if they open.
What are you talking about...? BETA TESTERS warned Aventurine about their laughable AI from the very first day.
Aventurine said not to worry, they don't have it turned on and basically told us to shut up...
This is the game YOU wanted, where something as simple as fighting mobs is an exploit. ROTFL
I don't remember them saying anyhting of the sort...
I remember alot of speculation by BETA TESTERS, but no actual comment from the devs.
Like a Quake bot, it perceives the world using roughly the same data as players receive, and has to conform to the same rules of action (a notable exception is that mobs do not consume arrows, reagents or gear durability, though at some point in the future they may; this is a large part of why the "mobs loot you" mechanic is currently missing).
Like an Oblivion NPC, their behavior is modified by a set of weighed desires which change based on environmental factors. Perceiving a player triggers the desire to kill that player (essential mob behavior!), which is balanced against the desire to avoid damage. Being low on health or stamina makes the latter desire more powerful, causing the mob to GTFO, find help, cast a heal, etc. The list is less extensive than Oblivion's (none of the mobs I saw in beta took a lunch break), but it's expandable by nature. The more complex the source of behavior, the harder it is to predict and therefore to control (i.e. make non-spastic), so a shorter list is good for now.
Most of the necessary tweaking involves how the mobs try to satisfy their desires. Some of it's excellent: they desire to kill you and not take damage, so they engage at range and dodge your missiles, only closing if you're also dodging or blocking. But if you're close, they know melee is the better damage source. And good lord, can they run.
Things like getting stuck in water are caused by not having a functional behavior to match a desire (remember, they use roughly the same control interface as players and obey the same physics, so this is a little trickier than in other MMOs), or possibly having one but not knowing it applies (mob knows to walk on land and to swim in water, does not know shallow water functions as land, tries to swim and fails).
Things like running in circles could be a simple loop bug, or it could be a little more complex: a homeostasis of desires, where the mob gets just far enough away to not be scared anymore, turns around, and gets scared again. That sort of thing has to be fixed by smoothing out the state transitions, and might take a lot of fine-tuning to entirely eliminate.
If every mob had exactly the same personality it'd be a lot simpler to make it all clean, but they're also trying for some variety... so fixing one doesn't fix another! Mirco, the AI dev, has also been in charge of tweaking spawn rates (and possibly loot?) and I guess they haven't been able to get him enough help to iron all of this out as it arises. I can say that I'm completely ignorant of how long it will really take. Maybe we'll see the truly blatant issues cleaned up within the week with further tweaking to follow, or maybe in a month helpless mobs in water will still be standard gameplay. I do hope it's closer to the former.
Quake AI isn't that much different from what most MMO's use today. Go play any version of Quake and you can see this. It's the single reason the quake series was always better online than in single player. Now the AI in the Doom series, atleast the new one is decent. But quake AI, hardly anything to brag about. It's funny you brought this up though. When I played the few hours I got to test the game back in beta, I had just got done playing warsow. And the first thing that popped in my head was how similar they feel, minus the speed of course.
Btw, warsow is fps built off a modified verson of the quake2 engine, a great game ta boot!
Builshit. None of the individual techniques are new, but the total framework is far beyond anything seen in an MMO, and the server architecture required to handle it is why NPC guards are out and a meaningful part of the launch issues.
If you think that a scripted trigger to run when a mob reaches 10% health is similar in complexity to a weighted priority system in which mobs might stick around longer if they've got a healer or several allies, you're a shallow douche, but sure, they're topologically similar. But I defy you to show me a single MMO in which the mobs have to perform ballistics and motion-lead calculations, or for that matter know about directions other than "toward" and "away."
Builshit. None of the individual techniques are new, but the total framework is far beyond anything seen in an MMO, and the server architecture required to handle it is why NPC guards are out and a meaningful part of the launch issues.
If you think that a scripted trigger to run when a mob reaches 10% health is similar in complexity to a weighted priority system in which mobs might stick around longer if they've got a healer or several allies, you're a shallow douche, but sure, they're topologically similar. But I defy you to show me a single MMO in which the mobs have to perform ballistics and motion-lead calculations, or for that matter know about directions other than "toward" and "away."
No hes right thats not a very complex AI. Actualy the hardest part of AI is having it interact with the evironment.
See thats why player combat is better than AI. Cause AI is easy to trick. As you can see with the exploits of getting them in water or stuck in a corner. Thats why most mmos say its a no no to jump in a tree or on a rock and shot mobs. Thats why some mmos put in a reset, you know when the mob gets insta full health immunity and goes back to its original cords.
The reason why most AI in mmos are simple is due to design. Not because its hard to do. Left 4 Dead has some good AI but any AI can be tricked. Except Fighting AI. Cause there just cheap. To this day I hate MBison and his uber cheapness.