First: I never spoke of one on one class balances (not even 2 on 2 for that matter). The offical arena competition is 3vs3 btw.
One on one balance in an mmorpg would be very dull and next to impossible. Data can't be attacked. They are there for everyone to see. And EVERY class is represented in the top 100 teamsof 3vs3 and 5vs5. http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/3v3/ see the classes ? See the difference with a month ago where there were hardly Warlocks ? The moment you typed the absence of WL back then, hup ... patch 3.08 and 3.09. How ridiculous you look now .... http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/5v5/ see the classes? See they are ALL represented. And we are just talking top 100 here. So being top 10 or top 100 is a very small difference to the MILLIONS of plays. By your last sentence (blue) you just approve everything I want to show. Tx to Arena we have a perfect development tool to always balance the class interaction of team play in a far better way. Tx for understanding it finally. Next time make a link to the 3vs3 and 5vs5 top teams also please Tx for Arena data so we can see further than the individual loss of a moaner like you. As a matter of fact. I see a LOT of balance in these arena data ..... BTw Grtz to those on the list for getting the 0.5% ELITE Gladiator title in season 5 WotLK. Another reason to play the 11.500.000 game.(to come back on topic)
I highlighted your BS in yellow, I know you like to post the Arena links in the hope no one will call BS on you. But I went ahead and added up the percentages on that list, excluding the roughly 5% difference since one team appears to be missing and 2 spares are gone.
Paladins 24%
Hunter 15%
DK 11%
Mage 10%
Rogues 9.6
Warrior 2%
Shamen 8.3%
Warlock 5%
Priest 4.6%
Druid 5%
So Warriors, Shaman, Warlocks, Priests, and Druids all together make up just what the paladin class has right now. Hunters and Death Knights alone make up 26 percent which is barely more than Paladins by themselves. Paladins 24, Warriors 2...... Yeh great class balance there Zorn.
First: I never spoke of one on one class balances (not even 2 on 2 for that matter). The offical arena competition is 3vs3 btw.
One on one balance in an mmorpg would be very dull and next to impossible. Data can't be attacked. They are there for everyone to see. And EVERY class is represented in the top 100 teamsof 3vs3 and 5vs5. http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/3v3/ see the classes ? See the difference with a month ago where there were hardly Warlocks ? The moment you typed the absence of WL back then, hup ... patch 3.08 and 3.09. How ridiculous you look now .... http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/5v5/ see the classes? See they are ALL represented. And we are just talking top 100 here. So being top 10 or top 100 is a very small difference to the MILLIONS of plays. By your last sentence (blue) you just approve everything I want to show. Tx to Arena we have a perfect development tool to always balance the class interaction of team play in a far better way. Tx for understanding it finally. Next time make a link to the 3vs3 and 5vs5 top teams also please Tx for Arena data so we can see further than the individual loss of a moaner like you. As a matter of fact. I see a LOT of balance in these arena data ..... BTw Grtz to those on the list for getting the 0.5% ELITE Gladiator title in season 5 WotLK. Another reason to play the 11.500.000 game.(to come back on topic)
I highlighted your BS in yellow, I know you like to post the Arena links in the hope no one will call BS on you. But I went ahead and added up the percentages on that list, excluding the roughly 5% difference since one team appears to be missing and 2 spares are gone.
Paladins 24%
Hunter 15%
DK 11%
Mage 10%
Rogues 9.6
Warrior 2%
Shamen 8.3%
Warlock 5%
Priest 4.6%
Druid 5%
So Warriors, Shaman, Warlocks, Priests, and Druids all together make up just what the paladin class has right now. Hunters and Death Knights alone make up 26 percent which is barely more than Paladins by themselves. Paladins 24, Warriors 2...... Yeh great class balance there Zorn.
Yeah, but we're talking about Zorn, right? So a typical response will include:
1) "WoW hate"
2) "Vomit"
3) "11.5 million"
4) Anything else that will either distort what you've said, ignore it completely, or make new and completely unfounded accusations.
Originally posted by Wizardry I am glad you noted this OP's post.I have said on MANY occasions,this is ALL WOW fans ever talk about ,not the game but numbers.This proves once again that their players are playing ONLY because others are.This is called a snowball effect,the game builds off of it's own numbers hype. Something else that is funny,is that i doubt anyone that posts these numbers has ever read BLIZZARDS statement on what a SUBSCRIBER is? Just a little fact about what i found about 8 months ago when i went into the noob zones.I played 5 days,saw 5 players in total playing in the zones that is not many by any games standards.There was a bunch in the main city hovered around some player that got his supposed new mount,drooling all over his mount."Oh i love your mount" "that is such a cool mount ,i want one".just a couple of the stuff they said. Now back to the numbers,you do realize that ALL the free gamers in WOW are counted as subs?you do realize that cancelled subs are counted as subs?game cards are counted as subs,in reality,if you join a noob zone ,you will see the numbers are extremely boosted and not even close to reality.FACTUAL players still under account as of right now are probably a lot closer to half of that MAYBE 5 million,maybe less. Guess what game is first advertised on all the RMT sites?yep WOW,so guess what game has a bazillion farmers?yep WOW.i would say that is not even argueable?that would make the actual player numbers even worse yet,because ,like this poster stated,ALL that matters is the players you will interact with. You do also realize ,bigshots in large firms get bonuses?BTW Blizzard employees were caught years ago for manipulating the accounting books[i believe they went to jail],i would say they were most likely the big guys that get their bonuses on ratings..NUMBERS.There is so much that could be said about posting numbers it is not funny,they are best left to the marketing firms,so the ycan boost the numbers of their portfolio.
OK, the nominations for this years awards are building fast so far!
I nominate this as the least factually based post of 2009 so far as i have seen no other post this year with so little knowledge, fact or solid proof than this one.
It has all the ingredients, non fact based 'reasoning' behind subscriber numbers, blatant lies in regard to how said subs numbers are calculated and barring any actual proof of wrongdoing, calumny aimed at Blizzard employees!
If you don't like the game, that's fine! If you don't like Blizzard as a company, that's fine! But to drop into a thread and write something like that is just embarrassing!
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
First: I never spoke of one on one class balances (not even 2 on 2 for that matter). The offical arena competition is 3vs3 btw.
And Zorndorf is the authority on what's the "official arena competition" ? At least we're coming to terms with the fact WoW isn't balanced.
One on one balance in an mmorpg would be very dull and next to impossible.
I agree there isn't any balance in that game.
Data can't be attacked. They are there for everyone to see. And EVERY class is represented in the top 100 teamsof 3vs3 and 5vs5.
I just gave you solid data. Out of 100 2v2 teams 68 were dk/paladin driven. in a perfect world scenario it wouldn't exceed 20. Fail as usual.
http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/3v3/ see the classes ? See the difference with a month ago where there were hardly Warlocks ? The moment you typed the absence of WL back then, hup ... patch 3.08 and 3.09. How ridiculous you look now ....
And we are just talking top 100 here. So being top 10 or top 100 is a very small difference to the MILLIONS of plays.
By your last sentence (blue) you just approve everything I want to show.
Tx to Arena we have a perfect development tool to always balance the class interaction of team play in a far better way.
Tx for understanding it finally. Next time make a link to the 3vs3 and 5vs5 top teams also please
Tx for Arena data so we can see further than the individual loss of a moaner like you.
As a matter of fact. I see a LOT of balance in these arena data .....
BTw Grtz to those on the list for getting the 0.5% ELITE Gladiator title in season 5 WotLK. Another reason to play the 11.500.000 game.(to come back on topic)
You pulled out arena then decided to circumvent the best representation of balance which would be the 2v2s. (1v1 would be best) The bigger the team the less important every player becomes. We can all agree that WoW isn't balanced any way, shape, or form. What I don't understand is you admit the game isn't balanced for 1v1 then go on to say as long as you throw more players into the equation somehow balance is found.
The cherry on top is you bringing out 11.5 million as the only argument you have present and I'd put money on it that the subscriber numbers aren't that high at this point.
WoW fanboi: "lolz 11.5 million customers, itz obviously da best"
First: I never spoke of one on one class balances (not even 2 on 2 for that matter). The offical arena competition is 3vs3 btw. And Zorndorf is the authority on what's the "official arena competition" ? At least we're coming to terms with the fact WoW isn't balanced.
One on one balance in an mmorpg would be very dull and next to impossible. I agree there isn't any balance in that game. Data can't be attacked. They are there for everyone to see. And EVERY class is represented in the top 100 teamsof 3vs3 and 5vs5. I just gave you solid data. Out of 100 2v2 teams 68 were dk/paladin driven. in a perfect world scenario it wouldn't exceed 20. Fail as usual. http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/3v3/ see the classes ? See the difference with a month ago where there were hardly Warlocks ? The moment you typed the absence of WL back then, hup ... patch 3.08 and 3.09. How ridiculous you look now .... http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/5v5/ see the classes? See they are ALL represented. And we are just talking top 100 here. So being top 10 or top 100 is a very small difference to the MILLIONS of plays. By your last sentence (blue) you just approve everything I want to show. Tx to Arena we have a perfect development tool to always balance the class interaction of team play in a far better way. Tx for understanding it finally. Next time make a link to the 3vs3 and 5vs5 top teams also please Tx for Arena data so we can see further than the individual loss of a moaner like you. As a matter of fact. I see a LOT of balance in these arena data ..... BTw Grtz to those on the list for getting the 0.5% ELITE Gladiator title in season 5 WotLK. Another reason to play the 11.500.000 game.(to come back on topic) You pulled out arena then decided to circumvent the best representation of balance which would be the 2v2s. (1v1 would be best) The bigger the team the less important every player becomes. We can all agree that WoW isn't balanced any way, shape, or form. What I don't understand is you admit the game isn't balanced for 1v1 then go on to say as long as you throw more players into the equation somehow balance is found.
The cherry on top is you bringing out 11.5 million as the only argument you have present and I'd put money on it that the subscriber numbers aren't that high at this point.
I was using 3v3 stats to show the percentages above, it would be even higher with 2v2. Paladins make up 24% of the players just in the top 100 teams in 3v3, haven't added up how bad it is for 2s yet. Only one other class even nears 15% in 3v3.
Originally posted by Malvolentia The cherry on top is you bringing out 11.5 million as the only argument you have present and I'd put money on it that the subscriber numbers aren't that high at this point.
You do realise that the only person that keeps banging on about 11.5 Million is you! No-one else at any point (that i have read so far) has said that 11.5 Million proves that WOW is a better game, just that 11.5 Million is a lot of subs ad a big number.
At this point you sound like a person sitting in the corner banging his head against a padded wall chanting "11.5 Million, 11.5 Million, it proves nothing, 11.5 Million, i will be proved right, 11.5 Million!!!"
Is 11.5 Million subs a lot - Yes
Does it prove WoW is the best game for everyone - No
If you enjoy the game will it matter if it has 11,500 or 11.5Mill subs - No
If you hate the game will it matter if it has 11,500 or 11.5Mill subs - No
Are the game classes balanced - No
Are any MMO's classes balanced - No
Does WoW require constant class tweaking - Yes
Does every MMO require constant class tweaking - Yes
......you see a pattern forming here huh.
As for 11.5 Million being the only arguent for playing, even you know for a fact that isn't true, but the reasons people play the game are for each individual player to say for themselves, you cannot give one sweeping reason for everyone.
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
8 million subscribers: 11 January, 2007: eu.blizzard.com/en/press/070111.html "World of Warcraft has also achieved new regional subscriber milestones, with more than 2 million players in North America, more than 1.5 million players in Europe, and more than 3.5 million players in China. " 8.5 million subscribers: March 7, 2007: eu.blizzard.com/en/press/070306.html "The Burning Crusade™ sold through approximately 3.5 million copies within one month following its mid-January launch in North America, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Thailand, and Malaysia.* This includes nearly 1.6 million sold in Europe, and more than 1.9 million sold in regions that play on North American realms, including more than 100,000 copies in Australasia. World of Warcraft's worldwide subscriber base now numbers more than 8.5 million and is continuing to grow as new and returning players join existing players in the game. " 9 million subscribers 24 July, 2007 - soon available in China: eu.blizzard.com/en/press/070724.html "World of Warcraft is available in seven different languages and, in addition to North America and Europe, is played in mainland China, Korea, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Thailand, Malaysia, and the regions of Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Macau." 10 million subsrcibers 22 January, 2008 eu.blizzard.com/en/press/080122.html "World of Warcraft now hosts more than 2 million subscribers in Europe, more than 2.5 million in North America, and approximately 5.5 million in Asia. " December 23rd, 2008 - WoW now availavle in Latin America and Russia eu.blizzard.com/en/press/081223.html 11.5 million subscribers "the expansion has now gone on to sell more than 4 million copies in its first month" Looks awesome doesn't it? Look at January 2007 and one year later, combined EU and US has gained 1 million in one year. I doubt current subscribers in EU/US have changed that much. All the growth was in China, 3 million because the game is new there! Similarly the growth to 11.5 million is because WoW is now availble in two new territories namely Latin America and Russia. The rise in players is because WoW is now available in new countries, not because EU and US have suddenly peaked. They are introducing players from new markets, so it is no surprise that the subscriber base has grown! Take at look at the subscriber definition too: " Internet Game Room players who have accessed the game over the last thirty days are also counted as subscribers. "
According to Human Rights in China (dot) Org hrichina.org/public/PDFs/CRF.3.2005/CRF-2005-3_GC_Cafe.pdf "Unlike American MMORPGs,which generally use credit card payment systems,Chinese MMORPGs use pre-paid money cards to validate accounts.
A money card with a value of 30 yuan purchases 60 hours of play time,which is credited to an account
through the Internet.Registering a card to create an account requires providing the identification number of a government issued ID card.In addition,it is possible to connect only to game servers physically located inside China;servers from the United States,Korea and Japan were found to be inaccessible" 30 Chinese yuan = £3 = $4.4 To count as a subscriber costs less than $5 and there are AT LEAST 5.5 million using that method! Bottom line: WoW's popularity is waning in the EU and US (were it started) and the main growth is the introdution of new players in new countries who never had a chance to play it before. Where's the press release saying 12 million already?! Hmm? Are Blizzard making the game super easy now, because they want all of those 11.5 million subscribers to convert to TBC and Lich King players, you bet they do! That means 11.5 million people to buy their next epansion...
So they know how to run their own bussines. Awesome in these days, really.
I love Blizzard for Diablo and Starcraft so when it comes to their mmo I could care less about their so called sub numbers. Diablo/Starcraft > WOW
As I love some of your other posts...
I do think that nostalgia is taking an odd turn here.
As I am currently playing Diablo2, it falls short in every way on choices of play compared to the number of playing options of Wow (or any good MMO for that matter).
Can I do some Role Playing? Can I go fishing? Do I need professions? Do I have BG's?
SC is another RTS game, great in its time.
Both games don't have the dozens of playing choices. That alone makes it rather odd to compare.
------------------------------------------
As for the balance of classes. Thank you for proving me right ! By using .... arena results (!)
The guys above who made even stats of the first top 100 teams ! Thanks !: it shows EVERY class can make a character and go to the ABSOLUTE top of the Arena. Because all these top 100 teams are the absolute cream of PvP players....
No better proof, because top 100 out of a possible 100.000's of teams show the sample even THIS small is good enough to view ALL classes can be the champions.
Like I said, it wouldn't suprise me that Paladins score the best because they have TWO very good alterantives right now to be played ---> healer AND DPS at the moment.
Yeh and their the highest burst in the game. so what are you saying it's OK for Paladins to be OP, is that right? Your also saying its ok for their to be only 2 or so other classes per Arena bracket to be over 10% Since everyone else seems to be struggling at 8% or lower.
Click and see how the classes are represented in a very very small sample of top 100.
Sure why not.
---
And the best way yet: YOU used ... Arena data .
Proving that Arena's are .... by far the perfect tool to view the imbalance.
Now these are only data based on results and matches (and top 100).
Blizzard has the actual combat stats.
---
What evidence do you have on balance in those supposed other "Wow killers"..........
None because they don't have anything. No data .to drool over -... nothing .., not only results of matches, not on combat.
So ... thank you on all of the Wow haters (all reunited 4) ...for proving my theory RIGHT all along ))
Arena is a reassurance ALL classes get the attention to be played in a balanced game.
Client wise (you the players) and server wise (data for Blizz).
That reassurance that other games can't give me . Hence EVEN MORE reasons to play PvP in the King.
Tx guys !
Sometimes your gibberish rails off into incomprehensible mud.
So even after I showed the very list you linked for 3v3 is grossly imbalanced your explanation is the imbalance is that it is balanced? What BS medication are you on? Anyway I went ahead and did the 5v5 for you to.
Paladin 23%
Hunter 13%
DK 13%
Shamen 13%
Mage 9.6%
Priest 10.2%
Druid 5.2%
Warrior 4.6%
Rogue 3.2%
Warlock 3%
So let me get this right, Warlocks, Rogues, Warriors and druids all together dont add up to the paladins alone in 5v5. Even the support classes in 5v5 have to double up to pass Paladins. So your saying being over 1/4th the entire arena population in every bracket is Balanced when some classes like Warlocks and Warriors dont even make up 5%?
Your fanboism is blind, Clearly I have shown you, repeatedly based on the data YOU linked that WoW is not balanced and in the face of the clear data you still claim class balance.
Oh and you said no other games have ladders, I thought that sounded like BS so I picked 2 random games, for Guild Wars well the stats for one player seem to dwarf the entire WoW list but sniff around this a bit If you want.
Why don't you show us the 2v2 Zorndork? The best representation of where WoW is at
Because I clearly stated above that one on one and two on two are not to be balanced in such extreme class differences as in any good MMORPG.
If so , this would be a very dull MMORPG where each class would be a copy of one another.
5vs5 is great and 3vs3 should be workable and so it is.
EVERY class is represented in this VERY small sample of top 100 teams (out of hundreds of thousands).
Getting percentages out of this small sample is interesting but at the same time it shows that every class is represented multiple times in that top 100, like it will be in thetop 500 and in the top 1000.
---IMPORTANT is the following ----
The MOST important part of this discussion though is that .... BOTH parties use .... Arena results to say they are right .
THAT is the interesting aspect: Arena serves to show (player result) data to everyone.
That proves Arena is there as a kind a "security" watcher EVERY class gets attention. cfr the far better representation of Warlocks AFTER the 3.08 patch than before.
To Blizzard (who ALSO have the server data) it is a perfect datamine of invaluable design source.
Other MMO's lack these tools and so it is clear Wow has MORE security build in than any other so called PvP based games that were recently launched.
There you just have to take the word from the publisher "they are group balanced" whatever that means.
------
So tx all who contribute to show arena results.
PS to the renown Wow hater: since paladins have two very good branches (healers AND dps), if you devide them.... You would arrive at half the number in healing/dps paladins.
But in the end the count is futile as the differences in arena points and the scale of the sample is that small that the differences in % should be flattened out in the number of classes that are mostly played these days.
To me it is important that all clasees are represented, some classes indeed far more (due to dual use) or by the fact they are indeed more played. BUT ... every character can make it to Gladiator and that is shown clearly by .... arena.
Well of course a few people from each class will drift into the list, but that does not mean the representation is equal. Just to finish it off I did the Top 100 2V2.
Paladin 32.5%
Death Knight 22.5%
Shaman 12%
Hunter 10%
Priest 2.5%
Druid 8.4%
Warlock 7.5%
Rogue 3%
Warrior 2.1%
MAGE 0.5%
Mages dont even make up one percent, 7 classes are at or below 10 percent and make up about 33% altogether. Death Knights are second at 22% which is double everyone else below them and they are still outdone by paladins by 10%. Thats hardly EQUAL representation, just because a class in in the list doesn't mean they have equal representation. And on the 2v2 list top 100 mages are represented merely ONE time and are a heartbeat away from Zero.Paladins gain from 5v5 and 3v3 and rise about 8% on the 2V2 list, Not the case for everyone else.
Now your saying the sampling is Small after using it to try and prove a point, now your going back. But thats ok, given that these are the top 100 players in the bracket and are the example lower level players will use you can bet on similar results on a larger scale, forgive me if I don't add that up to, but counting over 1000 teams is a chore even for an Accountant.
The fact that you now want me to DIVIDE paladins by OP spec means they are indeed Over Powered. Thats not fair to the other classes like Shaman who have one viable Arena spec ( heals) or some classes who are merely Meh in all 3 trees like Druids or Preists. Using that logic I shouldn't count Some classes at all ( warlocks) since ALL their trees are screwed up currently.
I will agree someone has to be at the top but currently the counter for Paladin is DK and the counter for DK is Paladin. Paladins and DKs counter everyone else who counter each other. There is clearly a weakness in Melee dps pvp specs for Warriors, Shaman and Druids right now. The pure casters are not living long enough to be anything other than support.
Edit: sorry my mistake rogues and Priests, I added your total number to your percentage by accident it's really much worse.
You said it yourself. the sample is WAY too small to be of any significance.(200 players out of 11.500.000). And I already had to say it 4 times now: the balance is for the offical 3vs3 and 5vs5 teams: Yes, thats what you say, but I think weve determined you mostly just make up crap as you go along. NOT ONE serious developped mmorpg with 10 classes could do a one on one balance or two on balance without being a VERY DULL game of classes being copies of one another. It's a GROUP sport. Once again people can see for themselves: http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/5v5/ Yes they can and it sucks. http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/3v3/ ONLY a VERY small sample (and NOT related to the % played most classes either). Thats BS. Based on nothing but BS...... Add that up and get back or don't spout BS. ---IMPORTANT ------- You could ONLY say WoW pvp is totoally unbalanced if pure ONE class teams would be making 20% of the top teams. Say 4 DK (and a healer) or 5 Pala only teams. You need ALL the classes in this sport. I can say it's imbalanced because one class takes up one fourth of the entire bracket. But that isn't the point either. YOU use Arena results as am I. Where are these data for AoC or War? They can't even be traced. ------ I BET you ANY of the 10 classes in Wow have many many more chances to be in the top Arena team worldwide (and championships) than white people or asian people could reach the finals of the 100 meter or 200 meter dash. That has ZERO to do with anything.
The Olympic finals are completely dominated by black people on those distances.... Guess what: the Belgian women team 4x100 meter got the silver medaille in Behjing with .... 3 white women. They could have easly go whining on an Athletics forum that they didn't have "a chance". They didn't --- they participated and won an Olympic silver medal. They had FUN, they prepared they played and beated the shit out of the stats. So your whining here does NOT prevent players to earn the 0.5% Gladiator title with ANY of the Wow classes present these days. ----- Now what is COMMON with these Olympic results and the Wow Arena's ? BOTH use the results to see where the balance is. Blizzard can alter them - after analysing the stats in ... arena. It's pretty bad God can't do that anymore. The Pink text I highlighted is just crazy BS ranting, what are you trying to argue? LOL that wow is racist or that WOW practices racial purity?
5V5
Paladin 23%
Hunter 13%
DK 13%
Shamen 13%
Mage 9.6%
Priest 10.2%
Druid 5.2%
Warrior 4.6%
Rogue 3.2%
Warlock 3%
NOT BALANCED
3V3
Paladins 24%
Hunter 15%
DK 11%
Mage 10%
Rogues 9.6
Warrior 2%
Shamen 8.3%
Warlock 5%
Priest 4.6%
Druid 5%
NOT BALANCED
I went ahead and put 3v3 and 5v5 together since you say they mean more than 2v2 for some reason.
I will use the word Staggering, since you use it so much, but Staggering is how OP Paladins are in Arena, hunters and DKs are still better than most, but paladins are just out of control.
Again this only gets worse in 2V2 the bracket you seem to think does not matter lol.
With Paladins taking up one third of the entire bracket Death knights over 1/4th and the scraps to everyone else.
Your sample is 300 and 500 people out of 11.500.000 playing.
and the only thing you show is that EVERY class is represented in the top Arena teams. Some more than other, because of: a. Being good dual purpose class (paladins represent both healers and dps in these teams). Right so Paladins get to be OP hybrids, because you think so, and well everyone else is unimportant? b. Some classes are more played than others and are already MORE in the game because of more races having them (druids, shamans). c. Your sample is indeed FAR too small 0.00000001% to be of any significance. The % error you get is bigger than the the actual measuring % because of the too small scale sample. Example? : Rogues are 300% more represented in 3vs3 as in 5vs5. Reason ? too small samples. the ERROR in your sample is bigger than the % you measure. 300 percent? Try AGAIN 6.4 percent differance. So your saying Arena shows representation of classes, but I cant use Arena as an example because You say it's insignificant? Which is it exactly? Oh and its .001 .003 and .005 percent not 0.00000001, if your gonna do it do it right. The ONLY thing one can say is: 1.EVERY class is multiple times represented in these top teams of players. 300 players and 500 players total. 2. NO team you could find in these top 5vs5 or 3vs3 teams is only made up of ONE class teams. Which brings proof that all classes are needed in arena. Some more than others. So your one liner of "one class face roll everthing up" is based on thin air. Or else 20% of top teams would be composed of one class teams. Which they aren't, they are MIXED. Actually it's 24% of all teams in 3v3 and 5v5, are paladins.
And instead of moaning and whining about it: see the challenge of the athletes above (that was adressed to your whining). And you used .... the data of Arena. grtz for that: proving it can be used as a balancing tool to address issues You post, I post. at least I have fun in playing a game where every class can be champion. Now... give me your balance stats on those other mmorpg's... You can't. They don't exist in such games as War, Aoc, ... Meaning you have NO idea what balance there might be, because you have NO data ..... Arena is a reassurance classes can be studied. Again your over the top BS gets put on pink from now on. http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/5v5/ http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/3v3/ You vomit all over a game which at least you can discuss results in fixed PvP fights. While you defend games which don't even deliver ANY data. Oh there it is again vomit vomit vomit, you keep posting the same crap over and over again hoping to brainwash someone with this garbage. Bottom line nutjob, a quarter of the population of ANYTHING is alot. Paladins have it Dks have it sometimes, everyone else is lucky if they are 10% of anything. Also I haven't mentioned AOC at all YOU have, pulled it right out of your rear. That sums it up quite nicely. ------ Another reason Why Wow has a 200.000 dollar PvP tournament between their 11.5 million players and the rest doesn't have "it". Pointless again. Your broken English is amazing btw.
So arena does not matter unless your trying to use it then it does, am I getting that right.
It's important cause it shows how bad the balance really is. It's illuminated. Do I even need to pull out the 2v2 data...again? Actually all the brackets show blatant over and under representation. Bringing out arenas was just a bad idea on your part.
Now you're pulling out garbage about what players "like" in terms of playing a "Human knight". Is some more of your solid data you've been celebrating?
Do you really think the game is more balanced today then it was 2 years ago? Chances are your own data will be against that.
WoW fanboi: "lolz 11.5 million customers, itz obviously da best"
OP seems to not realise that the average chinese worker is lucky to earn even 11 USD a day. Or $2-3 USD an hour. Not to mention america sucks %23 of chinese anual income from the economy in uneven trades. So basically the average rich american owes china around $4,000 USD
Through the quarter-century in which China has been opening to world trade, Chinese leaders have deliberately held down living standards for their own people and propped them up in the United States. This is the real meaning of the vast trade surplus—$1.4 trillion and counting, going up by about $1 billion per day—that the Chinese government has mostly parked in U.S. Treasury notes. In effect, every person in the (rich) United States has over the past 10 years or so borrowed about $4,000 from someone in the (poor) People’s Republic of China.
In effect, you really cant bitch that chinese still half to pay $4 for 60 hours of gameplay because that is still a outrageous ripoff to most chinese. Basically that payment plan translates into 14.99 for only 10 and a half days of gameplay!!! That is a ripoff for the rest of the world, with the chinese being forced to live in substandard conditions, WoW is a luxury past-time for the upperclass citizens. I mean comon, over in china, Wal-mart is actually considered a high class shopping center, wheres in america it is considered one of your cheaper stores like winco.
OP seems to not realise that the average chinese worker is lucky to earn even 11 USD a day. Or $2-3 USD an hour. Not to mention america sucks %23 of chinese anual income from the economy in uneven trades. So basically the average rich american owes china around $4,000 USD Through the quarter-century in which China has been opening to world trade, Chinese leaders have deliberately held down living standards for their own people and propped them up in the United States. This is the real meaning of the vast trade surplus—$1.4 trillion and counting, going up by about $1 billion per day—that the Chinese government has mostly parked in U.S. Treasury notes. In effect, every person in the (rich) United States has over the past 10 years or so borrowed about $4,000 from someone in the (poor) People’s Republic of China. In effect, you really cant bitch that chinese still half to pay $4 for 60 hours of gameplay because that is still a outrageous ripoff to most chinese. Basically that payment plan translates into 14.99 for only 10 and a half days of gameplay!!! That is a ripoff for the rest of the world, with the chinese being forced to live in substandard conditions, WoW is a luxury past-time for the upperclass citizens. I mean comon, over in china, Wal-mart is actually considered a high class shopping center, wheres in america it is considered one of your cheaper stores like winco.
I'm well aware of how much an average Chinese worker earns, for a 12 hour shift in a factory making mobiles or toys they get just over $5 (even then payment is delayed). It's easy to see why some turn to goldfarming...
WoW does not make money in China. Most revenues, by a large margin, come from US and Europe. Yet the sub growth has been in China. So yes, Blizzard is very misleading with its 11.5 million subscriber statements. Its financial report show the truth, all these millions of subs mean squat when it comes to dollars & cents.
In China, the gaming model involves gaming rooms. Some Chinese kid can come in, play WoW once in 30 days and be counted as a sub. Blizzard collects monthly fees from the game room operators who then re-bill via hourly charges. To keep their share of the Asian markets, Blizzard has to keep the monthlys low enough to allow for game room to make profit. It's a net loss, marketing expense for the Asian market penetration.
The last time WoW got a growth spurt in US & Europe was after the Southpark episode. It's been slowly deteriorating since then. WotLK is a failed xpac that is staying afloat due to the terribad players who washed quickly in their previous attempts. That and hopeful players that just can't let go of the past and the great game WoW used to be.
With the exception of warrior, all classes are represented in the 4 highest ranked 5vs5 teams. 20 of the highest rated players, 9 out of 10 diffirent classes. I think that proves that one can succeed well in WoW arena no matter what class he plays, except perhaps if he plays a warrior, and I think that's quite well balanced taking into account that Blizzard has to balance both PvP and PvE.
In a PvP game the balance is naturally much better since it's designed more around PvP balance and PvE balance is less important. So if the same data could be taken from Age of Conan or Warhammer Online, members of every class would be at the top, right? WoW can't be just be better than those other games?
PS. And I know that data taken from 2vs2 bracket wouldn't be as well balanced. WoW is balanced around playing in a group, not around playing solo, and in small group of only 2 that shows in the balance diffirences of diffirent duos.
Why do people care so much for numbers? It doesn;t matter if Wow had 100k or 100 million subs last time I checked you could only play with 3-5k at a time on each server. Let people enjoy the game, do you think disproving the 11.5 million number will make people love WoW less?
I think the fact that it's becoming the only argument for WoW has gotten old.
I think the argument that 11.5 million playing is the only argument has gotten old. 11.5 million people playing is only 1 of the arguments. Here's a few more.
It's easy to play and yet hard to master.
It works on low end PC's so just about everyone can play it.
It appeals to both casual and hard core gamers.
It appeals to both PvE and PvP players.
It works. There are relatively few bugs for such a wide variety of things to do.
It has a highly customizable interface so that you can customize it to your own taste.
It's supported well. There are frequent updates. There's a customer service department for problems. There's in game support. It has it's own forums where you can discuss the game, ask for help or just BS with others. It has it's own site with tons of information about the game as well as several excellent fan sites devoted to it where just about everything there is to know about the game can be found.
It's fun. Fishing tournaments. Holiday content. The Faire. World Events. Dancing. /Silly. These things allow you to take a break from the day to day content and just have a bit of fun.
I think a lot of your points here are things that are in the past when WoW was a legendary game. The game is ridiculously easy now so mastering it has become meaningless. You have Ret and 25 level Death Knights running around destroying players that have had their character for 4 years. It's a joke. It does have pretty good graphics for how low a pc you can play it on and no hacks/bugs. Those are +
But I'm not gonna argue that it's fun in a lot of aspects and I guess enough people find it fun to keep investing more time in it. After the PvP got flushed along with spoonfed instancing I felt it was time to move on.
you never played any mmorpg.. and started wow just before wotlk.. or still not playing..
25 lvl dk.. heh they start on 55.. balancing issues.. its not first time things gets imbalanced.. wow is one of most balanced games, wait for 3.1 its gona be fixed.. its already better..
go try lotro.. classes ruined, after pvp nerfs in pve game.. and etc..
as for wow numbers.. 5-6 mln.. is what.. .. aoc 150-70k subs.. eve 250k.. lotro 300k warhammer.. god knows whatnow.. probably around 200-300.. so by idea.. wow have atleast 20 times more suscribers. than any other western mmo ? oh wow..
saying that everyone in assia.. is from china is nonsense too..
5 bucks for 60h = 2h for for 30 days.. 4h for 15 days.. so 2x cards = 10 bucks a month.. for those who play more
not to mention korea/india/japan and whatnot..
there are tons of profesional gamers, from china/korea.. and hardcore raiders.. beating illidan 2 weeks after tbc released in china.. in greens/blues.. there was /is no better raiding guild than that..
from those millions there is probably atleast 1-2 mln..which sticks to paying full price for unrestricted game ( china/korea whatnot got 4h gaming limit a day.. or so.. even that means 10 bucks a month, probably different in korea/japan
so once again
look up what is asia.. before you proclaim all of it as china..
not everyone in asia pays 5-10 bucks a month.. there are plenty paying full price..
For the year, the game grew by over 1.8 million subscribers, which is approximately 18% beyond where it was in December of 2007. This growth was proportional across all regions, keeping us at a 55-45 split between east and west.
no mmo in the western market comes close to even having 1 million for North America/Europe
but as others have said
-- enjoy whatever mmo you prefer, dont need a game to be popular to be good
Comments
Bickering over subscription figures is completely pointless because:
1) Even under the least flattering light, WoW vastly distances all other MMO's in terms of subscribers, and
2) The number of subscriptions is no indication of the actual quality of a game, in one direction or in the other.
I'm perfectly willing to concede that it has 11.5 million subscribers, if that means addressing more important criticisms of the game.
I highlighted your BS in yellow, I know you like to post the Arena links in the hope no one will call BS on you. But I went ahead and added up the percentages on that list, excluding the roughly 5% difference since one team appears to be missing and 2 spares are gone.
Paladins 24%
Hunter 15%
DK 11%
Mage 10%
Rogues 9.6
Warrior 2%
Shamen 8.3%
Warlock 5%
Priest 4.6%
Druid 5%
So Warriors, Shaman, Warlocks, Priests, and Druids all together make up just what the paladin class has right now. Hunters and Death Knights alone make up 26 percent which is barely more than Paladins by themselves. Paladins 24, Warriors 2...... Yeh great class balance there Zorn.
I highlighted your BS in yellow, I know you like to post the Arena links in the hope no one will call BS on you. But I went ahead and added up the percentages on that list, excluding the roughly 5% difference since one team appears to be missing and 2 spares are gone.
Paladins 24%
Hunter 15%
DK 11%
Mage 10%
Rogues 9.6
Warrior 2%
Shamen 8.3%
Warlock 5%
Priest 4.6%
Druid 5%
So Warriors, Shaman, Warlocks, Priests, and Druids all together make up just what the paladin class has right now. Hunters and Death Knights alone make up 26 percent which is barely more than Paladins by themselves. Paladins 24, Warriors 2...... Yeh great class balance there Zorn.
Yeah, but we're talking about Zorn, right? So a typical response will include:
1) "WoW hate"
2) "Vomit"
3) "11.5 million"
4) Anything else that will either distort what you've said, ignore it completely, or make new and completely unfounded accusations.
OK, the nominations for this years awards are building fast so far!
I nominate this as the least factually based post of 2009 so far as i have seen no other post this year with so little knowledge, fact or solid proof than this one.
It has all the ingredients, non fact based 'reasoning' behind subscriber numbers, blatant lies in regard to how said subs numbers are calculated and barring any actual proof of wrongdoing, calumny aimed at Blizzard employees!
If you don't like the game, that's fine! If you don't like Blizzard as a company, that's fine! But to drop into a thread and write something like that is just embarrassing!
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
First: I never spoke of one on one class balances (not even 2 on 2 for that matter). The offical arena competition is 3vs3 btw.
And Zorndorf is the authority on what's the "official arena competition" ? At least we're coming to terms with the fact WoW isn't balanced.
One on one balance in an mmorpg would be very dull and next to impossible.
I agree there isn't any balance in that game.
Data can't be attacked. They are there for everyone to see. And EVERY class is represented in the top 100 teamsof 3vs3 and 5vs5.
I just gave you solid data. Out of 100 2v2 teams 68 were dk/paladin driven. in a perfect world scenario it wouldn't exceed 20. Fail as usual.
http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/3v3/ see the classes ? See the difference with a month ago where there were hardly Warlocks ? The moment you typed the absence of WL back then, hup ... patch 3.08 and 3.09. How ridiculous you look now ....
http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/5v5/ see the classes? See they are ALL represented.
And we are just talking top 100 here. So being top 10 or top 100 is a very small difference to the MILLIONS of plays.
By your last sentence (blue) you just approve everything I want to show.
Tx to Arena we have a perfect development tool to always balance the class interaction of team play in a far better way.
Tx for understanding it finally. Next time make a link to the 3vs3 and 5vs5 top teams also please
Tx for Arena data so we can see further than the individual loss of a moaner like you.
As a matter of fact. I see a LOT of balance in these arena data .....
BTw Grtz to those on the list for getting the 0.5% ELITE Gladiator title in season 5 WotLK. Another reason to play the 11.500.000 game.(to come back on topic)
You pulled out arena then decided to circumvent the best representation of balance which would be the 2v2s. (1v1 would be best) The bigger the team the less important every player becomes. We can all agree that WoW isn't balanced any way, shape, or form. What I don't understand is you admit the game isn't balanced for 1v1 then go on to say as long as you throw more players into the equation somehow balance is found.
The cherry on top is you bringing out 11.5 million as the only argument you have present and I'd put money on it that the subscriber numbers aren't that high at this point.
WoW fanboi: "lolz 11.5 million customers, itz obviously da best"
McDonald's: over 1 billion burgers served
I was using 3v3 stats to show the percentages above, it would be even higher with 2v2. Paladins make up 24% of the players just in the top 100 teams in 3v3, haven't added up how bad it is for 2s yet. Only one other class even nears 15% in 3v3.
I love Blizzard for Diablo and Starcraft so when it comes to their mmo I could care less about their so called sub numbers. Diablo/Starcraft > WOW
You do realise that the only person that keeps banging on about 11.5 Million is you! No-one else at any point (that i have read so far) has said that 11.5 Million proves that WOW is a better game, just that 11.5 Million is a lot of subs ad a big number.
At this point you sound like a person sitting in the corner banging his head against a padded wall chanting "11.5 Million, 11.5 Million, it proves nothing, 11.5 Million, i will be proved right, 11.5 Million!!!"
Is 11.5 Million subs a lot - Yes
Does it prove WoW is the best game for everyone - No
If you enjoy the game will it matter if it has 11,500 or 11.5Mill subs - No
If you hate the game will it matter if it has 11,500 or 11.5Mill subs - No
Are the game classes balanced - No
Are any MMO's classes balanced - No
Does WoW require constant class tweaking - Yes
Does every MMO require constant class tweaking - Yes
......you see a pattern forming here huh.
As for 11.5 Million being the only arguent for playing, even you know for a fact that isn't true, but the reasons people play the game are for each individual player to say for themselves, you cannot give one sweeping reason for everyone.
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
So they know how to run their own bussines. Awesome in these days, really.
As I love some of your other posts...
I do think that nostalgia is taking an odd turn here.
As I am currently playing Diablo2, it falls short in every way on choices of play compared to the number of playing options of Wow (or any good MMO for that matter).
Can I do some Role Playing? Can I go fishing? Do I need professions? Do I have BG's?
SC is another RTS game, great in its time.
Both games don't have the dozens of playing choices. That alone makes it rather odd to compare.
------------------------------------------
As for the balance of classes. Thank you for proving me right ! By using .... arena results (!)
The guys above who made even stats of the first top 100 teams ! Thanks !: it shows EVERY class can make a character and go to the ABSOLUTE top of the Arena. Because all these top 100 teams are the absolute cream of PvP players....
No better proof, because top 100 out of a possible 100.000's of teams show the sample even THIS small is good enough to view ALL classes can be the champions.
Like I said, it wouldn't suprise me that Paladins score the best because they have TWO very good alterantives right now to be played ---> healer AND DPS at the moment.
Yeh and their the highest burst in the game. so what are you saying it's OK for Paladins to be OP, is that right? Your also saying its ok for their to be only 2 or so other classes per Arena bracket to be over 10% Since everyone else seems to be struggling at 8% or lower.
http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/5v5/
http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/3v3/
Click and see how the classes are represented in a very very small sample of top 100.
Sure why not.
---
And the best way yet: YOU used ... Arena data .
Proving that Arena's are .... by far the perfect tool to view the imbalance.
Now these are only data based on results and matches (and top 100).
Blizzard has the actual combat stats.
---
What evidence do you have on balance in those supposed other "Wow killers"..........
None because they don't have anything. No data .to drool over -... nothing .., not only results of matches, not on combat.
So ... thank you on all of the Wow haters (all reunited 4) ...for proving my theory RIGHT all along
))
Arena is a reassurance ALL classes get the attention to be played in a balanced game.
Client wise (you the players) and server wise (data for Blizz).
That reassurance that other games can't give me . Hence EVEN MORE reasons to play PvP in the King.
Tx guys !
Sometimes your gibberish rails off into incomprehensible mud.
So even after I showed the very list you linked for 3v3 is grossly imbalanced your explanation is the imbalance is that it is balanced? What BS medication are you on? Anyway I went ahead and did the 5v5 for you to.
Paladin 23%
Hunter 13%
DK 13%
Shamen 13%
Mage 9.6%
Priest 10.2%
Druid 5.2%
Warrior 4.6%
Rogue 3.2%
Warlock 3%
So let me get this right, Warlocks, Rogues, Warriors and druids all together dont add up to the paladins alone in 5v5. Even the support classes in 5v5 have to double up to pass Paladins. So your saying being over 1/4th the entire arena population in every bracket is Balanced when some classes like Warlocks and Warriors dont even make up 5%?
Your fanboism is blind, Clearly I have shown you, repeatedly based on the data YOU linked that WoW is not balanced and in the face of the clear data you still claim class balance.
Oh and you said no other games have ladders, I thought that sounded like BS so I picked 2 random games, for Guild Wars well the stats for one player seem to dwarf the entire WoW list but sniff around this a bit If you want.
http://www.guildwars.com/competitive/hero_ladder/show_hero.php?guid={B6970AC4-799B-4DCF-93EE-464838236B49}
Oh and heres the Dofus group arena ladder LOL
http://www.dofus-arena.com/en/article-clan_ranking-291
Why don't you show us the 2v2 Zorndork? The best representation of where WoW is at
WoW fanboi: "lolz 11.5 million customers, itz obviously da best"
McDonald's: over 1 billion burgers served
so somehow 1v1 and 2v2 hold no balance whatsoever, but throw in an extra wild card and balance is miraculously in place. hrrmmmm
WoW fanboi: "lolz 11.5 million customers, itz obviously da best"
McDonald's: over 1 billion burgers served
Because I clearly stated above that one on one and two on two are not to be balanced in such extreme class differences as in any good MMORPG.
If so , this would be a very dull MMORPG where each class would be a copy of one another.
5vs5 is great and 3vs3 should be workable and so it is.
EVERY class is represented in this VERY small sample of top 100 teams (out of hundreds of thousands).
Getting percentages out of this small sample is interesting but at the same time it shows that every class is represented multiple times in that top 100, like it will be in thetop 500 and in the top 1000.
---IMPORTANT is the following ----
The MOST important part of this discussion though is that .... BOTH parties use .... Arena results to say they are right .
THAT is the interesting aspect: Arena serves to show (player result) data to everyone.
That proves Arena is there as a kind a "security" watcher EVERY class gets attention. cfr the far better representation of Warlocks AFTER the 3.08 patch than before.
To Blizzard (who ALSO have the server data) it is a perfect datamine of invaluable design source.
Other MMO's lack these tools and so it is clear Wow has MORE security build in than any other so called PvP based games that were recently launched.
There you just have to take the word from the publisher "they are group balanced" whatever that means.
------
So tx all who contribute to show arena results.
PS to the renown Wow hater: since paladins have two very good branches (healers AND dps), if you devide them.... You would arrive at half the number in healing/dps paladins.
But in the end the count is futile as the differences in arena points and the scale of the sample is that small that the differences in % should be flattened out in the number of classes that are mostly played these days.
To me it is important that all clasees are represented, some classes indeed far more (due to dual use) or by the fact they are indeed more played. BUT ... every character can make it to Gladiator and that is shown clearly by .... arena.
Well of course a few people from each class will drift into the list, but that does not mean the representation is equal. Just to finish it off I did the Top 100 2V2.
Paladin 32.5%
Death Knight 22.5%
Shaman 12%
Hunter 10%
Priest 2.5%
Druid 8.4%
Warlock 7.5%
Rogue 3%
Warrior 2.1%
MAGE 0.5%
Mages dont even make up one percent, 7 classes are at or below 10 percent and make up about 33% altogether. Death Knights are second at 22% which is double everyone else below them and they are still outdone by paladins by 10%. Thats hardly EQUAL representation, just because a class in in the list doesn't mean they have equal representation. And on the 2v2 list top 100 mages are represented merely ONE time and are a heartbeat away from Zero.Paladins gain from 5v5 and 3v3 and rise about 8% on the 2V2 list, Not the case for everyone else.
Now your saying the sampling is Small after using it to try and prove a point, now your going back. But thats ok, given that these are the top 100 players in the bracket and are the example lower level players will use you can bet on similar results on a larger scale, forgive me if I don't add that up to, but counting over 1000 teams is a chore even for an Accountant.
The fact that you now want me to DIVIDE paladins by OP spec means they are indeed Over Powered. Thats not fair to the other classes like Shaman who have one viable Arena spec ( heals) or some classes who are merely Meh in all 3 trees like Druids or Preists. Using that logic I shouldn't count Some classes at all ( warlocks) since ALL their trees are screwed up currently.
I will agree someone has to be at the top but currently the counter for Paladin is DK and the counter for DK is Paladin. Paladins and DKs counter everyone else who counter each other. There is clearly a weakness in Melee dps pvp specs for Warriors, Shaman and Druids right now. The pure casters are not living long enough to be anything other than support.
Edit: sorry my mistake rogues and Priests, I added your total number to your percentage by accident it's really much worse.
5V5
Paladin 23%
Hunter 13%
DK 13%
Shamen 13%
Mage 9.6%
Priest 10.2%
Druid 5.2%
Warrior 4.6%
Rogue 3.2%
Warlock 3%
NOT BALANCED
3V3
Paladins 24%
Hunter 15%
DK 11%
Mage 10%
Rogues 9.6
Warrior 2%
Shamen 8.3%
Warlock 5%
Priest 4.6%
Druid 5%
NOT BALANCED
I went ahead and put 3v3 and 5v5 together since you say they mean more than 2v2 for some reason.
I will use the word Staggering, since you use it so much, but Staggering is how OP Paladins are in Arena, hunters and DKs are still better than most, but paladins are just out of control.
Again this only gets worse in 2V2 the bracket you seem to think does not matter lol.
With Paladins taking up one third of the entire bracket Death knights over 1/4th and the scraps to everyone else.
So arena does not matter unless your trying to use it then it does, am I getting that right.
3v3 24% paladin 5v5 23% paladin 2V2 32.5% Paladin
So arena does not matter unless your trying to use it then it does, am I getting that right.
3v3 24% paladin 5v5 23% paladin 2V2 32.5% Paladin
lol, bingo. Zorn pulled out arenas for his "game balance data", then when he realized how big of a mistake it was, suddenly it's not so important.
WoW fanboi: "lolz 11.5 million customers, itz obviously da best"
McDonald's: over 1 billion burgers served
It's important cause it shows how bad the balance really is. It's illuminated. Do I even need to pull out the 2v2 data...again? Actually all the brackets show blatant over and under representation. Bringing out arenas was just a bad idea on your part.
Now you're pulling out garbage about what players "like" in terms of playing a "Human knight". Is some more of your solid data you've been celebrating?
Do you really think the game is more balanced today then it was 2 years ago? Chances are your own data will be against that.
WoW fanboi: "lolz 11.5 million customers, itz obviously da best"
McDonald's: over 1 billion burgers served
OP seems to not realise that the average chinese worker is lucky to earn even 11 USD a day. Or $2-3 USD an hour. Not to mention america sucks %23 of chinese anual income from the economy in uneven trades. So basically the average rich american owes china around $4,000 USD
Through the quarter-century in which China has been opening to world trade, Chinese leaders have deliberately held down living standards for their own people and propped them up in the United States. This is the real meaning of the vast trade surplus—$1.4 trillion and counting, going up by about $1 billion per day—that the Chinese government has mostly parked in U.S. Treasury notes. In effect, every person in the (rich) United States has over the past 10 years or so borrowed about $4,000 from someone in the (poor) People’s Republic of China.
In effect, you really cant bitch that chinese still half to pay $4 for 60 hours of gameplay because that is still a outrageous ripoff to most chinese. Basically that payment plan translates into 14.99 for only 10 and a half days of gameplay!!! That is a ripoff for the rest of the world, with the chinese being forced to live in substandard conditions, WoW is a luxury past-time for the upperclass citizens. I mean comon, over in china, Wal-mart is actually considered a high class shopping center, wheres in america it is considered one of your cheaper stores like winco.
I'm well aware of how much an average Chinese worker earns, for a 12 hour shift in a factory making mobiles or toys they get just over $5 (even then payment is delayed). It's easy to see why some turn to goldfarming...
WoW does not make money in China. Most revenues, by a large margin, come from US and Europe. Yet the sub growth has been in China. So yes, Blizzard is very misleading with its 11.5 million subscriber statements. Its financial report show the truth, all these millions of subs mean squat when it comes to dollars & cents.
In China, the gaming model involves gaming rooms. Some Chinese kid can come in, play WoW once in 30 days and be counted as a sub. Blizzard collects monthly fees from the game room operators who then re-bill via hourly charges. To keep their share of the Asian markets, Blizzard has to keep the monthlys low enough to allow for game room to make profit. It's a net loss, marketing expense for the Asian market penetration.
The last time WoW got a growth spurt in US & Europe was after the Southpark episode. It's been slowly deteriorating since then. WotLK is a failed xpac that is staying afloat due to the terribad players who washed quickly in their previous attempts. That and hopeful players that just can't let go of the past and the great game WoW used to be.
Playing: EvE, Warhammer free unlimited trial, Allods Online
Played: Anarchy Online, WoW, Warhammer, AoC, Ryzom. Aion
Strongly Recommend: Ryzom, EvE, Allods Online
I think one intresting way to use arenajunkies statistics would be to find out, how high each class can get.
The data is taken from arenajunkies, 5vs5 ladder stats: www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/5v5/
With the exception of warrior, all classes are represented in the 4 highest ranked 5vs5 teams. 20 of the highest rated players, 9 out of 10 diffirent classes. I think that proves that one can succeed well in WoW arena no matter what class he plays, except perhaps if he plays a warrior, and I think that's quite well balanced taking into account that Blizzard has to balance both PvP and PvE.
In a PvP game the balance is naturally much better since it's designed more around PvP balance and PvE balance is less important. So if the same data could be taken from Age of Conan or Warhammer Online, members of every class would be at the top, right? WoW can't be just be better than those other games?
PS. And I know that data taken from 2vs2 bracket wouldn't be as well balanced. WoW is balanced around playing in a group, not around playing solo, and in small group of only 2 that shows in the balance diffirences of diffirent duos.
I think the fact that it's becoming the only argument for WoW has gotten old.
I think the argument that 11.5 million playing is the only argument has gotten old. 11.5 million people playing is only 1 of the arguments. Here's a few more.
It's easy to play and yet hard to master.
It works on low end PC's so just about everyone can play it.
It appeals to both casual and hard core gamers.
It appeals to both PvE and PvP players.
It works. There are relatively few bugs for such a wide variety of things to do.
It has a highly customizable interface so that you can customize it to your own taste.
It's supported well. There are frequent updates. There's a customer service department for problems. There's in game support. It has it's own forums where you can discuss the game, ask for help or just BS with others. It has it's own site with tons of information about the game as well as several excellent fan sites devoted to it where just about everything there is to know about the game can be found.
It's fun. Fishing tournaments. Holiday content. The Faire. World Events. Dancing. /Silly. These things allow you to take a break from the day to day content and just have a bit of fun.
I think a lot of your points here are things that are in the past when WoW was a legendary game. The game is ridiculously easy now so mastering it has become meaningless. You have Ret and 25 level Death Knights running around destroying players that have had their character for 4 years. It's a joke. It does have pretty good graphics for how low a pc you can play it on and no hacks/bugs. Those are +
But I'm not gonna argue that it's fun in a lot of aspects and I guess enough people find it fun to keep investing more time in it. After the PvP got flushed along with spoonfed instancing I felt it was time to move on.
you never played any mmorpg.. and started wow just before wotlk.. or still not playing..
25 lvl dk.. heh they start on 55.. balancing issues.. its not first time things gets imbalanced.. wow is one of most balanced games, wait for 3.1 its gona be fixed.. its already better..
go try lotro.. classes ruined, after pvp nerfs in pve game.. and etc..
as for wow numbers.. 5-6 mln.. is what.. .. aoc 150-70k subs.. eve 250k.. lotro 300k warhammer.. god knows whatnow.. probably around 200-300.. so by idea.. wow have atleast 20 times more suscribers. than any other western mmo ? oh wow..
saying that everyone in assia.. is from china is nonsense too..
5 bucks for 60h = 2h for for 30 days.. 4h for 15 days.. so 2x cards = 10 bucks a month.. for those who play more
not to mention korea/india/japan and whatnot..
there are tons of profesional gamers, from china/korea.. and hardcore raiders.. beating illidan 2 weeks after tbc released in china.. in greens/blues.. there was /is no better raiding guild than that..
from those millions there is probably atleast 1-2 mln..which sticks to paying full price for unrestricted game ( china/korea whatnot got 4h gaming limit a day.. or so.. even that means 10 bucks a month, probably different in korea/japan
so once again
look up what is asia.. before you proclaim all of it as china..
not everyone in asia pays 5-10 bucks a month.. there are plenty paying full price..
10 bucks isnt that much less than 15..
the south park episode was from fall 2006
Blizzard On Sales, StarCraft II Beta, Quality, New MMO (from Feb 2009)
ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/44698/Blizzard-On-Sales-StarCraft-II-Beta-Quality-New-MMO
For the year, the game grew by over 1.8 million subscribers, which is approximately 18% beyond where it was in December of 2007. This growth was proportional across all regions, keeping us at a 55-45 split between east and west.
no mmo in the western market comes close to even having 1 million for North America/Europe
but as others have said
-- enjoy whatever mmo you prefer, dont need a game to be popular to be good
EQ2 fan sites
Yep arenas look really balanced..
.www.sk-gaming.com/arena/player/2/all/all/all/all/
www.sk-gaming.com/arena/player/3/all/all/all/all/
www.sk-gaming.com/arena/player/5/all/all/all/all/