You generally don't see people in FPS games complaining about FPV because pretty much all you do in a FPS is shoot. What little interaction with the environment is mostly pushing buttons on the wall. Now, imagine playing Tomb Raider or Assasin's Creed in FPV with the swinging, climbing and jumping. Jumping puzzles in FPV tend to suck, which is why it is rarely a big part of FPS. - Why imagine playing Tomb Raider or Assassin's Creed in FPV, when you could instead play games like Dark Messiah and see that it works great in FPV. Also, I don't understand why you would even bring up jumping puzzles as an argument against FPV in MO, since I seriously doubt we will see complex jumping puzzles in MMO's any time soon.
Also, the social activities in a MMO, such as dancing and other emotes don't lend themselves well to a FPV. MMOs are a much different beast than a shooter. Now if what they are going for is a shooter with fantasy elements, that is fine. If they are going for a virtual world to role-play as well as fight in, I feel a FPV is very limiting. - Emotes work very well in FPV. Same as in real life, you can see how others behave and when you look down at your own body you can see how you look. Also, for RP FPV works great, since you are playing as if you are the character and not just the puppet master controlling it from afar.
As to the realism factor, TPV does a better job there. It simulates the positional awareness and peripheral vision we have in real life better than FPV, which is a tunnel-vision simulator. In real life, we CAN see what is behind us without turning around with a quick glance over shoulders. We CAN see around corners by peeking. As long as you cannot zoom out, TPV really gives no more than what you would generally be aware of in real life. - That's your opinion. Myself and many others would say that FPV by far more realistic. TPV truly does provide better positional awareness, it goes way beyond what we have in real life. Yes, the lack of peripheral vision is an issue, but that can be compensated for simply by flicking your mouse and looking left and right. You can look behind yourself in FPV as well, it's called turning your character and it will only take a fraction of a second. You will be able to peek around corners in FPV as well, it's called leaning. Even without being able to zoom out you will still be seeing the world and your character from a magical floating camera that is flying around behind you. That is a lot less realistic than any of the "downsides" FPV has. I don't even see how someone can state otherwise. Just say that you prefer TPV and don't like FPV and leave it at that. Trying to say that TPV is more realistic is simply silly in my mind. In any case, these are only problems for people who are not familiar or comfortable with FPV games. If they are not willing to practice playing in FPV then they are free to choose some other TPV MMO, which there are hundreds of.
When climbing or walking a balance beam or any other acrobatic activity in real life, we know where out limbs are, either through looking and see them, or through proprioception. TPV simulates that by showing the whole body. FPV doesn't, as you only see the small field of view directly ahead, and maybe your hands. Climbing becomes levitating in front of a wall or ladder. I have had no problem playing games like Dark Messiah and of course FPS games which require you to interact with the environment more extencively (ie Half-Life 2). Just because some players are not able to sense their characters and how they interact with the environment in FPV is not a good enough reason for Star Vault to change one of the main features of their game. Furthermore, in MO FPV will also show your whole body, so this levitating concern of yours is not valid.
I was really hyped about this game until "First person only". Lastly there is nothing wrong with letting us choose how we play the game. It is simple make 3rd person option and you double your value!
This man speaks the truth .... Leave it up to the players.
Who in their right mind would release a fpv only mmo. Hell even drakfall didnt do it. Giving the choice to players to choose makes everyone happy, what wrong with making everyone happy?
Who in their right mind would release a fpv only mmo. Hell even drakfall didnt do it. Giving the choice to players to choose makes everyone happy, what wrong with making everyone happy?
I read that in MO, you always play in first person view. Its only when you are mounted that you play in third person view. Anyway, this game is a mmorpg and we will play with the same character for more then a month or more then a year. I also create my character and all. Why MO devs dont want to add manual togglelable third person view for melee and range? Its a mmorpg. Not battle field. I want to feel like im playing an mmorpg, i never played an mmorpg in fps all the way and i will never start to do it, so i hope MO will think about their decision again about lock view on fps only
I prefer first person view. In oblivion, I only use first person, unless im riding on a horse. If an mmorpg incorpates that same outlook that oblivion has, then I would gladly play it.
I agree. As long as i can see my hands while swinging a sword, pullin the bow string back, or waving away while casting a spell I will be a happy camper.
On Counterstrike you don't often try to do special maneuvers with a melee weapon. I have no problem with the company choosing to make it first person only; but I will at least voice my opinion. After all, a new MMORPG is a new MMORPG, and I'd just prefer the ability to be third person.
I'd actually like to see the nifty character animations in combat and movement. Just seeing my hands swing a sword or poke someone with a spear doesn't sound too terribly interesting. I didn't like the Elder Scrolls combat, and I didn't like Dark Messiah. I'm sure Mortal Online will attract the players it wants, but I won't say I'm not upset to see no third person view. Just means one MMORPG I won't try.
To be honest though, I really think a small company with a brand new game should try to go with the WoW approach to make it available to more people (Note: I do not mean make it a "themepark," just make it more accessible to as many as they can; i.e. allow a third person view). Too many niche games wind up unsuccessful, right? (Aside from EVE; damn it, I wish I could enjoy it; all but the combat is so amazing to me)
I'd actually like to see the nifty character animations in combat and movement. Just seeing my hands swing a sword or poke someone with a spear doesn't sound too terribly interesting. I didn't like the Elder Scrolls combat, and I didn't like Dark Messiah. I'm sure Mortal Online will attract the players it wants, but I won't say I'm not upset to see no third person view. Just means one MMORPG I won't try. To be honest though, I really think a small company with a brand new game should try to go with the WoW approach to make it available to more people. Too many niche games wind up unsuccessful, right? (Aside from EVE; damn it, I wish I could enjoy it; all but the combat is so amazing to me)
Devs have said, it wont be the same as other games that have done FPV. Maybe you like it.
No, a small company should avoid doing the same thing as Blizzard. Star Vault will never beeing able to compete against WoW, because Blizzard have billions to spend on their game.
Star Vault should do what they are doing ... implementing their own vision .... a game they want to play themself ... then something really great can be created.
But honestly, you should look elsewhere, ... you waist your time here on this forum.
I guess I'd still be willing to give it a try. Like I said, a new MMORPG is a new MMORPG. But I really can't see how their first person combat can be any different from any other first person combat system. All you can see are your hands, so what can be different?
Also, I wasn't saying they should try to "compete" with WoW. It's just, generally speaking, money is a good thing, especially for a smaller company. Restricting a game to only first person fans just sounds like an incredibly small niche. I don't know. Maybe I'm way off base for assuming that.
Perhaps you're right. Maybe I am wasting my time arguing that I like third person view. I'm not trying to convert anyone. I think I initially started because someone was saying that third person view is not as immersive, without stipulating "in their own opinion." :P
Our own natural vision has close 180 fiew of view. You can't simulate that in FPS view without some major fisheye effects that would make most users motion sick.
Fast action games (shooters for example) get away with this because you focus you vision into a smaller FoV.
Without playing I have no idea if I would enjoy it. I sure hated fighting melee in fallout 3 in first person.
Our own natural vision has close 180 fiew of view. You can't simulate that in FPS view without some major fisheye effects that would make most users motion sick. Fast action games (shooters for example) get away with this because you focus you vision into a smaller FoV. Without playing I have no idea if I would enjoy it. I sure hated fighting melee in fallout 3 in first person.
First you say we have 180 degree field of view. With a screen we probably have maybe 130 degree. That is a very bad argument for having TPV. It works fantastic well in PFS. At the same time you think TPV is more realistic at the same level of realism, in that aspect!? Beeing able to see whats behind you all the time, beeing able to see whats behind a rock before you actually can in RL, beeing able to see whats behind next corner .... imo that is what is totally unrealistic.
Not beeing able to see what is happend behind you ... that is what make this game more exciting than all those MMOs on the market. That will take the adventure feeling and the feeling that you are the one experience the adventure ... to another level.
Before I get started...I want to touch on a point that a previous poster mentioned. Challenges...
In my experience, playing several MMOs starting with UO, there are 2 kinds of challenges.....Value added challenges and PITA (Pain in the Arse) Challenges. They are pretty self explainitory. There are things in the game that add value to my playing experience through challenges, and there are things in a game that are hard and inconvienent for no other reason than being hard and inconvienent. The "PITA Challenges" are more of a thorn in the side than a hurddle.
I keep seeing everyone use this word called "immersion" and wondered why everyone had to mention it alteast 2wice in each post......until I seen the Dev's post, where he peppered his explanation for FPV with "immersion". Kinda reminds me of "Hope & Change".....but thats another topic all together.
FPV is not innovative. It's been used in Shooters, RPGs, and has been available as a viewing option (however unpopular) in just about every 3D MMO thats been released. There is a reason that TPV has been a natural fit for MMORPGs since the dawn of games like UO and EQ. I'm not saying that all games have to follow suit and be clones to the WOW's of the MMO market....what I am saying is that the point of view isn't the area that needs the "innovation", the content of the game is.
Yes, I get that limiting to a FPV allows for "non magical stealthing" and a sense of danger and realisim. I'm actually a fan of using terrain instead of some magical stealth mode to sneak up on someone.....and have been looking for that sense of danger since my UO experience. The negatives with a FPV, however, throw a nasty cold wet towel (you know, the kind thats been sitting in the sink under the dirty dishes for about a week) on any benifits a FPV would bring (In My Opinion Of Course)
A lot of people that think FPV is going to lend some of the postive aspects of FP Shooters in MMOs. To those people, have you considered the fundamental differences between FPS and MMOs?
- Map: FPS maps are small and predictable. It's easier to get your bearings in FPV when it takes 1-3 minutes to run from one side of the map to the other. MMORPG maps are massive, and sometimes dynamic. Getting your bearings and "learning" a map, that can literally take you hours to run from one side to the other, in a limited FPV is not a value added challenge IMO. You miss out on picking up on landmarks, monsters, items and other points of interest when looking straight ahead.
Also what happens to your ability to navigate at night, or when there is bad weather (not sure if MO has weather effects)?
- Combat: Another important difference between FPS and MMOs are how combat is conducted. In most FPS....if you get nailed 1-3 times (depending where the shot hit you) your toast. If someone shivs you from behind...its over before you can do much about it.
Not the case with MMOs. You should be able to take numerous hits from someone around your character's level/skill so that you can make use of your skills/moves. Getting jumped from behind while your fighting something in front of you is not a value added combat experience. I don't have a problem with having to fight more than one person. What I have a problem is not being able to see what it is coming after me, and not being able to know in a timely manner what it is I need to do to mitigate the situation. (Situational Awareness).
I see lots of ganking and lots of ranged exploitation in a FPV system like this. Imagine fighting someone/something and then you notice your getting hit from someone/something else. If you want to find out where its coming from (while in the middle of a fight) you have to turn your character away from what ever it was that you were fighting and pan around until you can spot what ever it is thats pegging you with arrows. By the time you find it, you've taken 2-3 more shots from the ranged enemy and the thing you were fighting in melee range is still beating on you (not to mention you've now given them your back). Now that you've assessed the added threat....Fight or Flight kicks in. Unfortunately your down to less than half life by now because you've spent precious seconds surveying the field instead of utilizing your character's skills to get you out of this sticky situation. This is with just one ranged aggitator....what happens if there are multiple ranged aggitators?
The "look over your shoulder" argument is not a good one. You can look over and around your shoulder all you want....as soon as you engage in FPV combat, your focus is straight ahead on what ever it is your swining/shooting at. Your a wide open target anytime you engage in combat (which I'm sure you will be spending LOTS of time in).
- Environment: Someone spoke of "listening to footsteps and actions" as your radar instead of being able to see threats around you. Again, works great in FPS with no ambient sounds and epic background music. Most MMOs are a fantasy game....people want to hear the crickets, birds, wind blowing through the trees. They want to hear the water crashing from the waterfall, or the sound of rain as it comes down. People also want epic music to compliment the environment. Being able to tell if someone is running at you from your left flank (and being able to react upon it in enough time) with all the ambient noise and background music will be tough.....and a poor proximity warning replacement of good ole fashioned TPV.
As mentioned previously....what happens at night or during weather effects? I get that not being able to see things as well at night or during weather is "realistic", but is it practicle for a MMO? Listen....elves and dragons are not realistic, so lets not get caught up in the absolute rule that realisim = superior game play experience.
Im excited about companies doing new things in MMOs.....and I certianly get the point of FPV in FPS, but remain convinced that FPV is NOT "the change we need" in MMOs in order to bring a unique playing experience from whats already out there. There is a whole untapped area of MMOs that Blizzard's WOW has left void and vacant. (Skill based system, sand box, common loot, wild wild west environment) I think that there are some things that MMOs can benifit from borrowing from other game generes......FPV not being one. It restricts a person more than it innovates.
I can´t dissagre more. Sometimes it goes to far ... the last games have gone way to far regarding ease, no depth, no challange, just quest spamming, no adventure feeling, TPV, instances, minimaps, etc ...
This game isent a game for you. Don´t worry, there will be plenty of other MMOs that will have TPV that you can play. This is just one out of 20 MMOs.
I want to play MO because it is FPV, have no instances and no minimap and will involve alot of skill. I have played FPV in EQ1, it was truely fun and exciting. In WoW etc ... FPV was allmost unplayable and a too much dissadvantage in PvP, .... so I never did it.
I have been a speculative fanboy of this game, ever since I first saw their website over a year ago. That said, personally I think they would be best served having a toggleable option to switch between FPV and TPV, something akin to Morrowind. I've seen many references to that series from both devs and other fans, and it seems that if they trully want to pick up that crowd, this would be an option to take.
You can still make it so range combat (or melee for that matter) is best used in FPV, for targeting reasons, while making a TPV option, just for a little change from the typical helmet-view vertigo associated with FPV. After all, most "situational awareness" comes from perephrial vision. A luxury we don't have even on the largest screens. There is nothing "niche" or "hardcore" about making something "different" for "difference" sake. Unfortunately, that would quite possibly be what occurs if that is the ONLY option on the table at launch. Many people would realize that "different" doesn't equal "quality", and that would be very sad for this game, since it is one of the most promising "different" games in the near future.
Waiting for- Tera, Jumpgate Evo, WH40K, WWE, WOD, TSW -- -- "Hey, if Activision liked it, then they should have put a ring on it," Double Fine President Tim Schafer said. "Oh great, now Beyonce is going to sue me too."
I can´t dissagre more. Sometimes it goes to far ... the last games have gone way to far regarding ease, no depth, no challange, just quest spamming, no adventure feeling, TPV, instances, minimaps, etc ... This game isent a game for you. Don´t worry, there will be plenty of other MMOs that will have TPV that you can play. This is just one out of 20 MMOs. I want to play MO because it is FPV, have no instances and no minimap and will involve alot of skill. I have played FPV in EQ1, it was truely fun and exciting. In WoW etc ... FPV was allmost unplayable and a too much dissadvantage in PvP, .... so I never did it. Luckily, we have MO ...
I agree that ease in MMOs have gone to far. Please don't associate TPV preference with the "gimme gimme instant gratification" trend thats taken place in most MMOs. A lot of people waited several years for the next "hard core, UO type" game with Dark Fall and they also went the FPV route. There might be dozens of other MMOs available....but the most recent thats offered anything close to UO have both gone the FPV route.
The reasons that made WOW unplayable in FPV will be the reasons that make any other MMORPG unplayable in FPV.
- Melee PvP combat ends up amounting to two (or several) people running in circles around eachother swining their weapon....very dizzy and uncoordinated.
- Ranged PvP combat presents problems when your focus is on another target. You get this sniping effect that makes it impracticle to identify the ranged threat and respond in enough time to address it. (for a example, read above in the Combat section)
FPV is only really fair if everyone has ranged (as displayed in First Person Shooters). Asking a Melee to respond to a ranged threat coming from an unknown direction while fighting something else is not fair.
I get the added "realisim" a FPV lends....but not all realisim is good or practicle for the game. There just seems like there are too many unintended consequences as a result of a few benifits. The game devs picked the wrong aspect of the game to "innovate". Wanna get immersed? Offer engaging and detailed content.....zooming your view point in closer to the pixels isn't the answer.
I have been a speculative fanboy of this game, ever since I first saw their website over a year ago. That said, personally I think they would be best served having a toggleable option to switch between FPV and TPV, something akin to Morrowind. I've seen many references to that series from both devs and other fans, and it seems that if they trully want to pick up that crowd, this would be an option to take. You can still make it so range combat (or melee for that matter) is best used in FPV, for targeting reasons, while making a TPV option, just for a little change from the typical helmet-view vertigo associated with FPV. After all, most "situational awareness" comes from perephrial vision. A luxury we don't have even on the largest screens. There is nothing "niche" or "hardcore" about making something "different" for "difference" sake. Unfortunately, that would quite possibly be what occurs if that is the ONLY option on the table at launch. Many people would realize that "different" doesn't equal "quality", and that would be very sad for this game, since it is one of the most promising "different" games in the near future.
Site hasn't been up for a year. First news post on the site was April 13, 2008 and all join dates for devs are April 2008 in the official forum.
Not knocking your enthuisasm, but don't lie.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
On Counterstrike you don't often try to do special maneuvers with a melee weapon. I have no problem with the company choosing to make it first person only; but I will at least voice my opinion. After all, a new MMORPG is a new MMORPG, and I'd just prefer the ability to be third person. I'd actually like to see the nifty character animations in combat and movement. Just seeing my hands swing a sword or poke someone with a spear doesn't sound too terribly interesting. I didn't like the Elder Scrolls combat, and I didn't like Dark Messiah. I'm sure Mortal Online will attract the players it wants, but I won't say I'm not upset to see no third person view. Just means one MMORPG I won't try. To be honest though, I really think a small company with a brand new game should try to go with the WoW approach to make it available to more people (Note: I do not mean make it a "themepark," just make it more accessible to as many as they can; i.e. allow a third person view). Too many niche games wind up unsuccessful, right? (Aside from EVE; damn it, I wish I could enjoy it; all but the combat is so amazing to me)
In addition....a seamless MMO with no instances = lag, latency and other movement sensitive issues that come as a result of server load and network latency. The very nature of a MMO game make it less "twitchy" than a FPS thats got a static map the size of a very small area on a MMO map, and with 10-12 players on the entire server.
Let me know how that "fraction of a second" turn with your mouse to see whats behind you works when there are 100+ people in the same immediate area. Anyone who's played MMOs before know what playing in lag is like......but introducing this twitch factor adds another uncontrolable variable in PvP & PvE.
Originally posted by RajCaj In addition....a seamless MMO with no instances = lag, latency and other movement sensitive issues that come as a result of server load and network latency. The very nature of a MMO game make it less "twitchy" than a FPS thats got a static map the size of a very small area on a MMO map, and with 10-12 players on the entire server. Let me know how that "fraction of a second" turn with your mouse to see whats behind you works when there are 100+ people in the same immediate area. Anyone who's played MMOs before know what playing in lag is like......but introducing this twitch factor adds another uncontrolable variable in PvP & PvE.
So you are basically against a ground breaking mmorp game, and want's another clone of EQ solutions - both game mechanics, and hardware/serverside solutions ?
-- /thread
Remember, your advantage lies in your opponent's weakness (J)
For the record, I totally support the devs decisions to have first person view only. I think being FP only will add tons of immersion into the game, and not having a third person view will mean that I am not forced to use third person view in order to not be at a tactical disadvantage.
In addition....a seamless MMO with no instances = lag, latency and other movement sensitive issues that come as a result of server load and network latency. The very nature of a MMO game make it less "twitchy" than a FPS thats got a static map the size of a very small area on a MMO map, and with 10-12 players on the entire server.
Let me know how that "fraction of a second" turn with your mouse to see whats behind you works when there are 100+ people in the same immediate area. Anyone who's played MMOs before know what playing in lag is like......but introducing this twitch factor adds another uncontrolable variable in PvP & PvE.
So you are basically against a ground breaking mmorp game, and want's another clone of EQ solutions - both game mechanics, and hardware/serverside solutions ?
I never said that.....read up and you'll see where I stand on the WOW/EQ clone issue.
I'm just pointing out the reality of the situation regarding FPV in a MMO. There is a reason why FPV works so well in Shooters and TPV works so well in MMOs. The two types of games are VERY different. If a new Counterstrike was released with TPV only.....would you call that ground breaking?
MMOs introduce a lot more server side and network latency issues than you get in a FPS. I've played MMOs since 98 and I've (like most) have come to understand that you will play through a tolerable amount of lag/lattency. Its not a big deal until you make PvP, PvE dependent on the "twitch" factor. Your not going to make those "fraction of a second" turns to address a threat behind you when there are 100-200 people fighting in the same area.
It's harder to use your hearing as a early warning system in a MMO than it is in a FPS. There are ambient sounds like birds, insects, flowing water, wind and epic background music to get you in the mood. Hard to hear faint footsteps given all the other sounds that are playing.
I'm not against innovation....but there is nothing innovative or novel about FPV in MMOs. Every 3D MMORPG since UO has offered a FPV option....yet everyone uses TPV. Why is that? Ranged Attackers will have a very unfair advantage in combat. TPV allows for a person to counter in the event of an attack. FPV allows for a ranged attacker to get in atleast 2-3 shots before the targeted person even knows where the damage is coming from.....and then likely will be able to get off another 2-3 shots before they have to start kiting. Thats in an even steven 1v1 situation....
There are plenty of other areas to get innovative in a MMORPG than in the Point of View. A good crafting system has been a sore spot for MMOs for a very long time....why not do something innovative with that? Immerse yourself in combat by creating a well balanced system that allows for combos and effective counters. (UO's mage duels were incredibly simple and incredibly effective/balanced) Skill based system has only been used in a few MMORPGs.....go crazy with that. Introduce a realistic weather system where wind direction effect aggro ranges and detection.....(like Darkfall promised but failed to deliver on). There are tons of other areas that can be explored in MMOs but have been ignored for the mass appeal. Taking a FPV and forcing it on a MMO isn't the answer.
I'm not demanding the MO devs change their game just so it caters to my own preferences, but I probably won't play MO if it doesn't have the option for TPV. I was very interested in MO based on the sandbox features until I found out about the FPS only gameplay. Reason being, the first FPS games like Wolfenstein, Doom and Quake with the sprite graphics featuring 2D models I found to be utterly unplayable. I seriously couldn't get through 1 lvl in those FPS games without being overcome with naseau. It wasn't until Goldeneye that I could even play through an FPS game. While now I can casually enjoy modern FPS games with fully 3D models that don't have that same rigid tunnel vision FPS display. its still not my cup of tea and sometimes requires a couple advil during prolonged gaming sessions. With MMOs, I like to play waaay more than I should in single setting if my schedule allows it so I simply can't see myself playing one entirely in first-person. Thats just me, and I wouldn't protest for changes in MO considering how many people seem genuinely pleased about the first-person only aspect. However, even a very limited, close up behind the shoulder view being made an option would greatly impact my decision to purchase MO.
Will there be any type of indicator telling which direction damage is coming from? Me personally I prefer TPV but that's not to say I hate FPV. If they don't have the indicator though I think I'll pass because it would be too annoying ,in my opinion, to be spinning my view in no logical direction just to figure out where I'm getting hit from. I'm not saying that the element of surprise or stealth should be taken out but if I felt pain on my left side in real life I know which way I probably should go. I just want that same type of "awareness" in the game.
Comments
This man speaks the truth .... Leave it up to the players.
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/thread
Remember, your advantage lies in your opponent's weakness (J)
Who in their right mind would release a fpv only mmo. Hell even drakfall didnt do it.
Giving the choice to players to choose makes everyone happy, what wrong with making everyone happy?
I'm not a no life that sits in front of his computer all day long, I'm an intern that sits in front of his computer all day long.
First person only view sucks!
I take it you are like 14-15years old?
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
I take it you are like 14-15years old?
Ageism is the cool thing, right?
I prefer first person view. In oblivion, I only use first person, unless im riding on a horse. If an mmorpg incorpates that same outlook that oblivion has, then I would gladly play it.
I agree. As long as i can see my hands while swinging a sword, pullin the bow string back, or waving away while casting a spell I will be a happy camper.
The devs have said it will be a nish game, not for everyone.
No instances (most likely), no minimap, no quest dependens, no TPV, ...
MO will be more depth, more real adventure, more skill, ...
You whiners should go and play other MMOs that have TPV and you have plenty to choose from, WoW, EQ2, AoC, WAR, Darkfall, and many more ...
FPV-only will be a unique selling point for Star Vault. Even thou you will be able to see how you look like (paperdoll).
But I am sure you will like FPV-only if you just give it a chanse. I have never heard anyone complaining on that Counterstrike should be in TPV.
On Counterstrike you don't often try to do special maneuvers with a melee weapon. I have no problem with the company choosing to make it first person only; but I will at least voice my opinion. After all, a new MMORPG is a new MMORPG, and I'd just prefer the ability to be third person.
I'd actually like to see the nifty character animations in combat and movement. Just seeing my hands swing a sword or poke someone with a spear doesn't sound too terribly interesting. I didn't like the Elder Scrolls combat, and I didn't like Dark Messiah. I'm sure Mortal Online will attract the players it wants, but I won't say I'm not upset to see no third person view. Just means one MMORPG I won't try.
To be honest though, I really think a small company with a brand new game should try to go with the WoW approach to make it available to more people (Note: I do not mean make it a "themepark," just make it more accessible to as many as they can; i.e. allow a third person view). Too many niche games wind up unsuccessful, right? (Aside from EVE; damn it, I wish I could enjoy it; all but the combat is so amazing to me)
Devs have said, it wont be the same as other games that have done FPV. Maybe you like it.
No, a small company should avoid doing the same thing as Blizzard. Star Vault will never beeing able to compete against WoW, because Blizzard have billions to spend on their game.
Star Vault should do what they are doing ... implementing their own vision .... a game they want to play themself ... then something really great can be created.
But honestly, you should look elsewhere, ... you waist your time here on this forum.
I guess I'd still be willing to give it a try. Like I said, a new MMORPG is a new MMORPG. But I really can't see how their first person combat can be any different from any other first person combat system. All you can see are your hands, so what can be different?
Also, I wasn't saying they should try to "compete" with WoW. It's just, generally speaking, money is a good thing, especially for a smaller company. Restricting a game to only first person fans just sounds like an incredibly small niche. I don't know. Maybe I'm way off base for assuming that.
Perhaps you're right. Maybe I am wasting my time arguing that I like third person view. I'm not trying to convert anyone. I think I initially started because someone was saying that third person view is not as immersive, without stipulating "in their own opinion." :P
Our own natural vision has close 180 fiew of view. You can't simulate that in FPS view without some major fisheye effects that would make most users motion sick.
Fast action games (shooters for example) get away with this because you focus you vision into a smaller FoV.
Without playing I have no idea if I would enjoy it. I sure hated fighting melee in fallout 3 in first person.
First you say we have 180 degree field of view. With a screen we probably have maybe 130 degree. That is a very bad argument for having TPV. It works fantastic well in PFS. At the same time you think TPV is more realistic at the same level of realism, in that aspect!? Beeing able to see whats behind you all the time, beeing able to see whats behind a rock before you actually can in RL, beeing able to see whats behind next corner .... imo that is what is totally unrealistic.
Not beeing able to see what is happend behind you ... that is what make this game more exciting than all those MMOs on the market. That will take the adventure feeling and the feeling that you are the one experience the adventure ... to another level.
Before I get started...I want to touch on a point that a previous poster mentioned. Challenges...
In my experience, playing several MMOs starting with UO, there are 2 kinds of challenges.....Value added challenges and PITA (Pain in the Arse) Challenges. They are pretty self explainitory. There are things in the game that add value to my playing experience through challenges, and there are things in a game that are hard and inconvienent for no other reason than being hard and inconvienent. The "PITA Challenges" are more of a thorn in the side than a hurddle.
I keep seeing everyone use this word called "immersion" and wondered why everyone had to mention it alteast 2wice in each post......until I seen the Dev's post, where he peppered his explanation for FPV with "immersion". Kinda reminds me of "Hope & Change".....but thats another topic all together.
FPV is not innovative. It's been used in Shooters, RPGs, and has been available as a viewing option (however unpopular) in just about every 3D MMO thats been released. There is a reason that TPV has been a natural fit for MMORPGs since the dawn of games like UO and EQ. I'm not saying that all games have to follow suit and be clones to the WOW's of the MMO market....what I am saying is that the point of view isn't the area that needs the "innovation", the content of the game is.
Yes, I get that limiting to a FPV allows for "non magical stealthing" and a sense of danger and realisim. I'm actually a fan of using terrain instead of some magical stealth mode to sneak up on someone.....and have been looking for that sense of danger since my UO experience. The negatives with a FPV, however, throw a nasty cold wet towel (you know, the kind thats been sitting in the sink under the dirty dishes for about a week) on any benifits a FPV would bring (In My Opinion Of Course)
A lot of people that think FPV is going to lend some of the postive aspects of FP Shooters in MMOs. To those people, have you considered the fundamental differences between FPS and MMOs?
- Map: FPS maps are small and predictable. It's easier to get your bearings in FPV when it takes 1-3 minutes to run from one side of the map to the other. MMORPG maps are massive, and sometimes dynamic. Getting your bearings and "learning" a map, that can literally take you hours to run from one side to the other, in a limited FPV is not a value added challenge IMO. You miss out on picking up on landmarks, monsters, items and other points of interest when looking straight ahead.
Also what happens to your ability to navigate at night, or when there is bad weather (not sure if MO has weather effects)?
- Combat: Another important difference between FPS and MMOs are how combat is conducted. In most FPS....if you get nailed 1-3 times (depending where the shot hit you) your toast. If someone shivs you from behind...its over before you can do much about it.
Not the case with MMOs. You should be able to take numerous hits from someone around your character's level/skill so that you can make use of your skills/moves. Getting jumped from behind while your fighting something in front of you is not a value added combat experience. I don't have a problem with having to fight more than one person. What I have a problem is not being able to see what it is coming after me, and not being able to know in a timely manner what it is I need to do to mitigate the situation. (Situational Awareness).
I see lots of ganking and lots of ranged exploitation in a FPV system like this. Imagine fighting someone/something and then you notice your getting hit from someone/something else. If you want to find out where its coming from (while in the middle of a fight) you have to turn your character away from what ever it was that you were fighting and pan around until you can spot what ever it is thats pegging you with arrows. By the time you find it, you've taken 2-3 more shots from the ranged enemy and the thing you were fighting in melee range is still beating on you (not to mention you've now given them your back). Now that you've assessed the added threat....Fight or Flight kicks in. Unfortunately your down to less than half life by now because you've spent precious seconds surveying the field instead of utilizing your character's skills to get you out of this sticky situation. This is with just one ranged aggitator....what happens if there are multiple ranged aggitators?
The "look over your shoulder" argument is not a good one. You can look over and around your shoulder all you want....as soon as you engage in FPV combat, your focus is straight ahead on what ever it is your swining/shooting at. Your a wide open target anytime you engage in combat (which I'm sure you will be spending LOTS of time in).
- Environment: Someone spoke of "listening to footsteps and actions" as your radar instead of being able to see threats around you. Again, works great in FPS with no ambient sounds and epic background music. Most MMOs are a fantasy game....people want to hear the crickets, birds, wind blowing through the trees. They want to hear the water crashing from the waterfall, or the sound of rain as it comes down. People also want epic music to compliment the environment. Being able to tell if someone is running at you from your left flank (and being able to react upon it in enough time) with all the ambient noise and background music will be tough.....and a poor proximity warning replacement of good ole fashioned TPV.
As mentioned previously....what happens at night or during weather effects? I get that not being able to see things as well at night or during weather is "realistic", but is it practicle for a MMO? Listen....elves and dragons are not realistic, so lets not get caught up in the absolute rule that realisim = superior game play experience.
Im excited about companies doing new things in MMOs.....and I certianly get the point of FPV in FPS, but remain convinced that FPV is NOT "the change we need" in MMOs in order to bring a unique playing experience from whats already out there. There is a whole untapped area of MMOs that Blizzard's WOW has left void and vacant. (Skill based system, sand box, common loot, wild wild west environment) I think that there are some things that MMOs can benifit from borrowing from other game generes......FPV not being one. It restricts a person more than it innovates.
I can´t dissagre more. Sometimes it goes to far ... the last games have gone way to far regarding ease, no depth, no challange, just quest spamming, no adventure feeling, TPV, instances, minimaps, etc ...
This game isent a game for you. Don´t worry, there will be plenty of other MMOs that will have TPV that you can play. This is just one out of 20 MMOs.
I want to play MO because it is FPV, have no instances and no minimap and will involve alot of skill. I have played FPV in EQ1, it was truely fun and exciting. In WoW etc ... FPV was allmost unplayable and a too much dissadvantage in PvP, .... so I never did it.
Luckily, we have MO ...
I have been a speculative fanboy of this game, ever since I first saw their website over a year ago. That said, personally I think they would be best served having a toggleable option to switch between FPV and TPV, something akin to Morrowind. I've seen many references to that series from both devs and other fans, and it seems that if they trully want to pick up that crowd, this would be an option to take.
You can still make it so range combat (or melee for that matter) is best used in FPV, for targeting reasons, while making a TPV option, just for a little change from the typical helmet-view vertigo associated with FPV. After all, most "situational awareness" comes from perephrial vision. A luxury we don't have even on the largest screens. There is nothing "niche" or "hardcore" about making something "different" for "difference" sake. Unfortunately, that would quite possibly be what occurs if that is the ONLY option on the table at launch. Many people would realize that "different" doesn't equal "quality", and that would be very sad for this game, since it is one of the most promising "different" games in the near future.
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Tried- L2, Ryzom, WAR, DDO, PWI, Tab Rasa, Requiem, Champs, AA, JD, PWI, SUN, Dawntide
Played- SWG (pre-cu), AoC, VG, WoW, LoTRO,CoX, EQ2, DAOC, GW, PotBS, Aion, MO,APB, NASA, Fallen Earth, DCUO, Rift
Playing- EVE, Black Prophecy, TOR
Waiting for- Tera, Jumpgate Evo, WH40K, WWE, WOD, TSW
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"Hey, if Activision liked it, then they should have put a ring on it," Double Fine President Tim Schafer said. "Oh great, now Beyonce is going to sue me too."
I agree that ease in MMOs have gone to far. Please don't associate TPV preference with the "gimme gimme instant gratification" trend thats taken place in most MMOs. A lot of people waited several years for the next "hard core, UO type" game with Dark Fall and they also went the FPV route. There might be dozens of other MMOs available....but the most recent thats offered anything close to UO have both gone the FPV route.
The reasons that made WOW unplayable in FPV will be the reasons that make any other MMORPG unplayable in FPV.
- Melee PvP combat ends up amounting to two (or several) people running in circles around eachother swining their weapon....very dizzy and uncoordinated.
- Ranged PvP combat presents problems when your focus is on another target. You get this sniping effect that makes it impracticle to identify the ranged threat and respond in enough time to address it. (for a example, read above in the Combat section)
FPV is only really fair if everyone has ranged (as displayed in First Person Shooters). Asking a Melee to respond to a ranged threat coming from an unknown direction while fighting something else is not fair.
I get the added "realisim" a FPV lends....but not all realisim is good or practicle for the game. There just seems like there are too many unintended consequences as a result of a few benifits. The game devs picked the wrong aspect of the game to "innovate". Wanna get immersed? Offer engaging and detailed content.....zooming your view point in closer to the pixels isn't the answer.
Site hasn't been up for a year. First news post on the site was April 13, 2008 and all join dates for devs are April 2008 in the official forum.
Not knocking your enthuisasm, but don't lie.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
In addition....a seamless MMO with no instances = lag, latency and other movement sensitive issues that come as a result of server load and network latency. The very nature of a MMO game make it less "twitchy" than a FPS thats got a static map the size of a very small area on a MMO map, and with 10-12 players on the entire server.
Let me know how that "fraction of a second" turn with your mouse to see whats behind you works when there are 100+ people in the same immediate area. Anyone who's played MMOs before know what playing in lag is like......but introducing this twitch factor adds another uncontrolable variable in PvP & PvE.
So you are basically against a ground breaking mmorp game, and want's another clone of EQ solutions - both game mechanics, and hardware/serverside solutions ?
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Remember, your advantage lies in your opponent's weakness (J)
For the record, I totally support the devs decisions to have first person view only. I think being FP only will add tons of immersion into the game, and not having a third person view will mean that I am not forced to use third person view in order to not be at a tactical disadvantage.
So you are basically against a ground breaking mmorp game, and want's another clone of EQ solutions - both game mechanics, and hardware/serverside solutions ?
I never said that.....read up and you'll see where I stand on the WOW/EQ clone issue.
I'm just pointing out the reality of the situation regarding FPV in a MMO. There is a reason why FPV works so well in Shooters and TPV works so well in MMOs. The two types of games are VERY different. If a new Counterstrike was released with TPV only.....would you call that ground breaking?
MMOs introduce a lot more server side and network latency issues than you get in a FPS. I've played MMOs since 98 and I've (like most) have come to understand that you will play through a tolerable amount of lag/lattency. Its not a big deal until you make PvP, PvE dependent on the "twitch" factor. Your not going to make those "fraction of a second" turns to address a threat behind you when there are 100-200 people fighting in the same area.
It's harder to use your hearing as a early warning system in a MMO than it is in a FPS. There are ambient sounds like birds, insects, flowing water, wind and epic background music to get you in the mood. Hard to hear faint footsteps given all the other sounds that are playing.
I'm not against innovation....but there is nothing innovative or novel about FPV in MMOs. Every 3D MMORPG since UO has offered a FPV option....yet everyone uses TPV. Why is that? Ranged Attackers will have a very unfair advantage in combat. TPV allows for a person to counter in the event of an attack. FPV allows for a ranged attacker to get in atleast 2-3 shots before the targeted person even knows where the damage is coming from.....and then likely will be able to get off another 2-3 shots before they have to start kiting. Thats in an even steven 1v1 situation....
There are plenty of other areas to get innovative in a MMORPG than in the Point of View. A good crafting system has been a sore spot for MMOs for a very long time....why not do something innovative with that? Immerse yourself in combat by creating a well balanced system that allows for combos and effective counters. (UO's mage duels were incredibly simple and incredibly effective/balanced) Skill based system has only been used in a few MMORPGs.....go crazy with that. Introduce a realistic weather system where wind direction effect aggro ranges and detection.....(like Darkfall promised but failed to deliver on). There are tons of other areas that can be explored in MMOs but have been ignored for the mass appeal. Taking a FPV and forcing it on a MMO isn't the answer.
I'm not demanding the MO devs change their game just so it caters to my own preferences, but I probably won't play MO if it doesn't have the option for TPV. I was very interested in MO based on the sandbox features until I found out about the FPS only gameplay. Reason being, the first FPS games like Wolfenstein, Doom and Quake with the sprite graphics featuring 2D models I found to be utterly unplayable. I seriously couldn't get through 1 lvl in those FPS games without being overcome with naseau. It wasn't until Goldeneye that I could even play through an FPS game. While now I can casually enjoy modern FPS games with fully 3D models that don't have that same rigid tunnel vision FPS display. its still not my cup of tea and sometimes requires a couple advil during prolonged gaming sessions. With MMOs, I like to play waaay more than I should in single setting if my schedule allows it so I simply can't see myself playing one entirely in first-person. Thats just me, and I wouldn't protest for changes in MO considering how many people seem genuinely pleased about the first-person only aspect. However, even a very limited, close up behind the shoulder view being made an option would greatly impact my decision to purchase MO.
Will there be any type of indicator telling which direction damage is coming from? Me personally I prefer TPV but that's not to say I hate FPV. If they don't have the indicator though I think I'll pass because it would be too annoying ,in my opinion, to be spinning my view in no logical direction just to figure out where I'm getting hit from. I'm not saying that the element of surprise or stealth should be taken out but if I felt pain on my left side in real life I know which way I probably should go. I just want that same type of "awareness" in the game.