My theory on why some prefer sandbox and others linear

Impacatus · March 2009

There's been a lot of debate between these two groups, and they can never seem to see eye to eye. It's baffling to one side why anyone would want the other type of game. People often say that one side is hardcore the other casual, or that one side consists of gamers the other of normal people, or that one side is more mature than the other. I think, however, that you will find all these types of people in both games.

I suspect that this is the difference:

Sandbox fans expect to stick to one game for the long term. As such, depth and complexity are important to keep the game entertaining, while pre-made content runs out. They plan to stick with the same community of players, so social based features are considered beneficial. They form an identity within the context of the game, and desire tools to help them express it such as character customization. They seek to distinguish themselves within the game, wanting their achievements to mean something. To them, even features they don't plan to explore are important because they provide for a richer community.

Linear fans, on the other hand, only plan to play a certain game for the short term. They expect to play through the game until they reach a certain point then look for something else to do. Therefore, the pre made content is what provides most of their entertainment, They don't have time or desire to get involved in the community in any meaningful way, so features oriented towards that are unnecessary. They want games that are easy to get into, because they change games and don't want to have to relearn everything each time.

In each group, there may be people who play many hours a week or few, who take risks or play it safe, who are old or young, but I suspect the difference is in how long they plan to play the game. Sandbox people want a game they can play forever, linear people just want a game.

Thoughts?

donjn · March 2009

I am not sure it is that simple.

If a game kept me interested long enough, I would play it a long time regardless if it was linear or sandbox.

I prefer sandbox, but have stuck with WoW for years because they have a pretty good product.

Reklaw · March 2009

Originally posted by Impacatus

There's been a lot of debate between these two groups, and they can never seem to see eye to eye. It's baffling to one side why anyone would want the other type of game. People often say that one side is hardcore the other casual, or that one side consists of gamers the other of normal people, or that one side is more mature than the other. I think, however, that you will find all these types of people in both games.
I suspect that this is the difference:
Sandbox fans expect to stick to one game for the long term. As such, depth and complexity are important to keep the game entertaining, while pre-made content runs out. They plan to stick with the same community of players, so social based features are considered beneficial. They form an identity within the context of the game, and desire tools to help them express it such as character customization. They seek to distinguish themselves within the game, wanting their achievements to mean something. To them, even features they don't plan to explore are important because they provide for a richer community. To me this what you just said is MY PERSONAL definition of a MMORPG in many way's
Linear fans, on the other hand, only plan to play a certain game for the short term. They expect to play through the game until they reach a certain point then look for something else to do. Therefore, the pre made content is what provides most of their entertainment, They don't have time or desire to get involved in the community in any meaningful way, so features oriented towards that are unnecessary. They want games that are easy to get into, because they change games and don't want to have to relearn everything each time. To me what you said here are the other genre of games I enjoy that consist out of singleplayergames or multiplayer games where I know as a gamer I don't need to commit myself as much as I would do with a MMORPG. Unfortunaly it seems the majority seems okay with a multiplayer games with some MMORPG feature's, I feel even with games in the MMO section becoming more populair those of us who prefer actual roleplay or MMORPG as in virtual world are still a niche breed......
In each group, there may be people who play many hours a week or few, who take risks or play it safe, who are old or young, but I suspect the difference is in how long they plan to play the game. Sandbox people want a game they can play forever, linear people just want a game.
Myself hardly much time to game, but that has always been the beauty of MMORPG as there was no rush, now aday's it's all competition and most rush thru the content and don't want to smell the roses sort of speak.
Thoughts? So you see I like both, but not within the same genre, perhaps it's because I enjoy many other genre of games and know when I play a MMORPG I truly want to play it the living life of my character (GAMERWAY) and apart from SWG no other MMORPG's that appeals to me visually has captured me into playing it again atleast not for a long time as most feel/felt like regular multiplayer games to to little depth to please my MMORPG side.

Ebonyfly · March 2009

Yeah, i think there is probably some truth to your theory but i don't think there is a 'one size fits all' solution to the question you are asking. For instance there are a lot of people on these forums who would like nothing more than a modern version of EQ to play and I would class those as long-term linear players.

At the moment I think sandbox & linear preferences are also split along PvP / PvE lines to a large degree. But that doesn't fit everybody either...Personally I would like nothing better than to see a sandbox PvE game .

Z3R01 · March 2009

Originally posted by Impacatus

There's been a lot of debate between these two groups, and they can never seem to see eye to eye. It's baffling to one side why anyone would want the other type of game. People often say that one side is hardcore the other casual, or that one side consists of gamers the other of normal people, or that one side is more mature than the other. I think, however, that you will find all these types of people in both games.
I suspect that this is the difference:
Sandbox fans expect to stick to one game for the long term. As such, depth and complexity are important to keep the game entertaining, while pre-made content runs out. They plan to stick with the same community of players, so social based features are considered beneficial. They form an identity within the context of the game, and desire tools to help them express it such as character customization. They seek to distinguish themselves within the game, wanting their achievements to mean something. To them, even features they don't plan to explore are important because they provide for a richer community.
Linear fans, on the other hand, only plan to play a certain game for the short term. They expect to play through the game until they reach a certain point then look for something else to do. Therefore, the pre made content is what provides most of their entertainment, They don't have time or desire to get involved in the community in any meaningful way, so features oriented towards that are unnecessary. They want games that are easy to get into, because they change games and don't want to have to relearn everything each time.
In each group, there may be people who play many hours a week or few, who take risks or play it safe, who are old or young, but I suspect the difference is in how long they plan to play the game. Sandbox people want a game they can play forever, linear people just want a game.
Thoughts?

Interesting.

I play Sandbox games for two reasons.

The first one is freedom in character customization, I like building my own class and I like having unlimited playstyles with one character. I can't do that in themepark games.

The second is Player ran economy, I like my games to have crafters make the majority of the items players use. I don't like armor sets and i don't like raids that drop OP shit that make Crafters useless. Crafters should always make the best stuff usually this Need for crafting Items is tied to some type of Item loss either by full loot or Item loss through decay. These things keep crafted items in need.

Other then that things like territory control, housing, city building can all be put in themepark games. I would never say they are excusively sandbox features.

I also don't think sandbox games require more time invested. I strongly believe sandbox games can be casually played also.

Impacatus · March 2009

Originally posted by Ebonyfly

Yeah, i think there is probably some truth to your theory but i don't think there is a 'one size fits all' solution to the question you are asking. For instance there are a lot of people on these forums who would like nothing more than a modern version of EQ to play and I would class those as long-term linear players.
At the moment I think sandbox & linear preferences are also split along PvP / PvE lines to a large degree. But that doesn't fit everybody either...Personally I would like nothing better than to see a sandbox PvE game .

Hmm that's a good point. I have seen people like that now that you mention it.

To both you and donjn, in fairness I wasn't trying to claim my theory was absolute, although I guess the second-last paragraph sounds that way. I'm just saying there's a correlation. On the other hand, I doubt you'll see many short term sandbox players, although that could be sampling bias caused by the small selection of sandbox games..

Impacatus · March 2009

Originally posted by Z3R01

I also don't think sandbox games require more time invested. I strongly believe sandbox games can be casually played also.

Yeah, that's part of my point. It's not hours per week that counts, it's weeks total.

Torik · March 2009

I Disagree.

You really cannot lump people like that.

People keep playing games till the content in them loses appeal to them. As such it does not matter whether it is sandbox or linear. What matters is how long can the content keep you interested.

Also people will form communities if they find likeminded people they like to play with. I used to be part of a big longstanding guild that played multiple games over 5 years. We thrived in good linear games and withered in weak sandbox games.

Ilvaldyr · March 2009

Disagree with the OP's statements; feel it's an oversimplification and not particularly accurate to boot.

I've played both types of game and haven't seen any marked difference in the retention periods of players. I know WoW players who've been there since the servers opened .. I know EVE players who get bored after a couple of months, quit and spend their days on MMO forums complaining about the lack of sandbox games.

We choose the games that offer us the things we want; be that a vast open world or a theme-park ride around an instanced dungeon; and when we're sucked into the hype and excitement of a promising new MMO, the last thing on our minds is how long we'll be playing it for.

Impacatus · March 2009

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Disagree with the OP's statements; feel it's an oversimplification and not particularly accurate to boot.
I've played both types of game and haven't seen any marked difference in the retention periods of players. I know WoW players who've been there since the servers opened .. I know EVE players who get bored after a couple of months, quit and spend their days on MMO forums complaining about the lack of sandbox games.
We choose the games that offer us the things we want; be that a vast open world or a theme-park ride around an instanced dungeon; and when we're sucked into the hype and excitement of a promising new MMO, the last thing on our minds is how long we'll be playing it for.

Not really inconsistent with my theory. Maybe I misspoke when I said it was about weeks played. I think it's about perception. It is consistent that someone with the personality I associated with sandbox players would leave a game if they didn't see a future in it, and it is consistent that someone with the personality I associated with linear players would play a game as long as they enjoyed the content.

Furthermore, there are no hard and fast lines between "sandbox" and "linear" games. I would bet that if we looked at those people you mentioned had been playing WoW since launch, we would find that many of them are very involved with the community in a variety of ways. Some people manage to make do with the few sandbox features of a linear game.

I'm not denying that this is a complex question and there are probably many factors affecting the answer. You can't make absolute statements about the preferences of entire populations, but you can note trends. I personally feel that a major reason why the two groups have trouble understanding each other is that they fail to realize that the other may have a different approach to games, and I think the major difference is that many sandbox advocates are looking for a permanent mmorpg home, while those who want linear games aren't.

GreenChaos · March 2009

People that claim to be fans of sandbox MMOs are people that can't grasp that all MMO are non-linear, compared to linear single player games.

They are just people that want to bash games for the sake of bashing games, can't come up with any really reason to do so, so they call them themeparks, say they are linear, which isn't true - all MMOs are sandbox games.

Just think about a real linear game like portal - every room you are in is the only room you can be in at the time. You move from one room to the next, in a precise order. You can't go back or make choices as to where you go - ever. That is a linear game. No MMO is that linear.

People calling WoW a themepark have just run out of insults for it. There are many different ways to play WoW. You can solo and take your time leveling, you can get power leveled, you can buy a char on ebay, you can 2 box, 6 box, 32 box, raid in a guild, pvp, make mods. Or just fish if you really wanted to. Look, I don't even like WoW – but saying it's a themepark and that it's linear and not a sandbox, is just being ignorant and insulting for the sake of being insulting.

vader999 · March 2009

My opinion is theres two extremes: you're either looking for a game to play to just shut off and have fun or you're looking for a world to delve into which needs challenges and complexities to keep you continually entertained.

At one end you can throw in something like Diablo, I currently don't want to dedicate myself to a game so Im just there having fun. I can pick it up at the end of a long day and just release some tension in a mindless fashion.

At the other extreme you have something like Eve (can't think of a non-MMO that compares, maybe RTSs) where I go when I have the time and motivation to dedicate, theres constantly something new to learn if I broaden out with an alt or even on a main with the constant changing of battle dynamics, markets and politics.

With a linear MMO the learning curve is much shorter and after a while you've seen it all, the only thing left is the grind. There are some exceptions, say Guild Wars PvP which was constantly evolving when I left it some time ago, or Anarchy Onlines twinking/itemisation system that keeps a world of options open to you, however Eve has a broader range of areas in which to keep learning and evolving.

Between them on the spectrum you have FPSs which require dedication with practice and honing skills but largely let you just pew pew, through to more linear MMOs that require some thought but largely help you through alot of the decision making process.

It's simply a matter of taste, how much of a game do you want and how much of a world do you want.

Murdus · March 2009

Originally posted by Impacatus

There's been a lot of debate between these two groups, and they can never seem to see eye to eye. It's baffling to one side why anyone would want the other type of game. People often say that one side is hardcore the other casual, or that one side consists of gamers the other of normal people, or that one side is more mature than the other. I think, however, that you will find all these types of people in both games.
I suspect that this is the difference:
Sandbox fans expect to stick to one game for the long term. As such, depth and complexity are important to keep the game entertaining, while pre-made content runs out. They plan to stick with the same community of players, so social based features are considered beneficial. They form an identity within the context of the game, and desire tools to help them express it such as character customization. They seek to distinguish themselves within the game, wanting their achievements to mean something. To them, even features they don't plan to explore are important because they provide for a richer community.
Linear fans, on the other hand, only plan to play a certain game for the short term. They expect to play through the game until they reach a certain point then look for something else to do. Therefore, the pre made content is what provides most of their entertainment, They don't have time or desire to get involved in the community in any meaningful way, so features oriented towards that are unnecessary. They want games that are easy to get into, because they change games and don't want to have to relearn everything each time.
In each group, there may be people who play many hours a week or few, who take risks or play it safe, who are old or young, but I suspect the difference is in how long they plan to play the game. Sandbox people want a game they can play forever, linear people just want a game.
Thoughts?

I don't think those are the only reasons, or the reasons at all. Linear games, like WoW, is played by a LOT of long term players. As is every other MMORPG.

I just think that extremists of both sides are stupid when they say "this is the way the mmorpg is made, everything you like is wrong."

Josher · March 2009

I'll play whatever is fun and sandboxes have never been, because I always feel like I'm supposed to entertain myself. I don't want to FIGURE OUT whats good and whats not, what works and what sucks. The developer is supposed to figure those things out. If they don't know, then they haven't properly tested their game.

I play games to be entertained and so called "theme park" MMOs entertain me a lot more than sandboxes. They have content I can see, use and absorb. I build things, test things and figure out how to solve problems all day at work. I don't want to pay to do the same things when I get home=) Thats a sandbox. Here are a bunch of broken tools. YOU figure out how our game works and be sure to tell us, because we sure as hell don't have much of a clue which leads to almost everyone being identical to everyone else. Hapened in UO. Happened in AC. Most likely it'll happen in DF as well.

pencilrick · March 2009

Sandbox: You're a kid being released inside a candy store.

Linear: You're a kid being led through the candy store by your parents.

Sandbox player: You have played the "sandbox" style and have known the feeling of excitement, wonder, and freedom.

Linear player: You have never had a quality sandbox experience and think that "being led by the hand" through the candy store is as good as it gets and cannot fathom where you would go or what choices you might make were there not someone there to guide you and make them for you.

There is a reason folks talk with admiration and longing about their time in great sandbox games; a reason that a games like Everquest and Ultima Online have set bars yet to be subsequently reached (in terms of enjoyment and immersion, not subscriptions), despite the fact graphics on those games were subpar even in their day.

I guess part of the "immersion" came from consquences for sloppy gameplay (i.e., you could lose gear or 20% of a level's worth of experience for getting killed by doing stupid things). Just like in a real world, if you run your character off a cliff, he or she dies; no respawning to the nearest town as if "dying" were some quick way of teleporting back to base.

The real fun came from freedom, seeing a world with endless mysteries and vast opportunities; a world in which achievements were earned and carelessness was punished. Logging in and thinking "wow, I can trek off to anywhere", discovering if the new woodlands zone is too high for my character or if it granted some access through a cave to a neat new zone to level in. None of this, "follow the bread crumb trail of Candyland-style quests" like in linear MMO's. Instead, you played a character in a world. A WORLD.

Sandbox design isn't dead; it's just not been reworked properly. And any naysayer who hasn't played a great sandbox and "lived it" just doesn't know.

Z3R01 · March 2009

Originally posted by GreenChaos

People that claim to be fans of sandbox MMOs are people that can't grasp that all MMO are non-linear, compared to linear single player games.

They are just people that want to bash games for the sake of bashing games, can't come up with any really reason to do so, so they call them themeparks, say they are linear, which isn't true - all MMOs are sandbox games.
Just think about a real linear game like portal - every room you are in is the only room you can be in at the time. You move from one room to the next, in a precise order. You can't go back or make choices as to where you go - ever. That is a linear game. No MMO is that linear.
People calling WoW a themepark have just run out of insults for it. There are many different ways to play WoW. You can solo and take your time leveling, you can get power leveled, you can buy a char on ebay, you can 2 box, 6 box, 32 box, raid in a guild, pvp, make mods. Or just fish if you really wanted to. Look, I don't even like WoW – but saying it's a themepark and that it's linear and not a sandbox, is just being ignorant and insulting for the sake of being insulting.

In WoW everything you do leads to blizzards Endgame. Sure you could quest and grind to level to that ENDGAME Or pvp unitl you ge tto that ENDGAME. Can you be a crafter without following blizzards predetermined character progression? Can I take a basic character in WOW and train every skill vailable in the game? without rolling ten alts? you say you can just be a fisherman in WoW? you sure because last time i played you needed to be a specific level to grab other fishing skill books. that right there forces you into doing something when all yu want to do is fish.

Sure WoW may have a couple sandboxy elements like being able to level up Weapon skills (something I feel blizzard dropped the ball on, it could have been a great mechanic. linking weapon skills to spells).

What type of freedom do you have when everything leads to either Arena/BG or raiding/dungeon crawling?

You think calling something a themepark is a insult? I disagree, I think of it as a MMO sub genre.

Conley · March 2009

My theory is very simple. I don't think people necissarily prefer linear games, if you look at some of the biggest successes in single player games (oblivion, the sims, GTA) you'll see they are not linear or at least a lot less linear then the average game.

So my theory is simply that the reason people prefer the linear MMO's, is that at the moment no high quality sandbox games exist, with the exception of EVE (which is a success and thus prove my theory).

Evasia · March 2009

Originally posted by Impacatus

There's been a lot of debate between these two groups, and they can never seem to see eye to eye. It's baffling to one side why anyone would want the other type of game. People often say that one side is hardcore the other casual, or that one side consists of gamers the other of normal people, or that one side is more mature than the other. I think, however, that you will find all these types of people in both games.
I suspect that this is the difference:
Sandbox fans expect to stick to one game for the long term. As such, depth and complexity are important to keep the game entertaining, while pre-made content runs out. They plan to stick with the same community of players, so social based features are considered beneficial. They form an identity within the context of the game, and desire tools to help them express it such as character customization. They seek to distinguish themselves within the game, wanting their achievements to mean something. To them, even features they don't plan to explore are important because they provide for a richer community.
Linear fans, on the other hand, only plan to play a certain game for the short term. They expect to play through the game until they reach a certain point then look for something else to do. Therefore, the pre made content is what provides most of their entertainment, They don't have time or desire to get involved in the community in any meaningful way, so features oriented towards that are unnecessary. They want games that are easy to get into, because they change games and don't want to have to relearn everything each time.
In each group, there may be people who play many hours a week or few, who take risks or play it safe, who are old or young, but I suspect the difference is in how long they plan to play the game. Sandbox people want a game they can play forever, linear people just want a game.
Thoughts?

Its just matter of taste and experience you have with sandbox or themepark and its easy why many dont like the other type of game.

Sandbox is mostly freedom

Themepark is taken by the hand and game guide you throught its mostly easy mode.

But there are sandbox that have no guidance and have the freedom but still are very easy like Darkfall very simple game easy to learn.

There are also themepark games that can also be hardcore.

Both have immature players trash talkers and total idiots WoW have them Darkfall at moment seems even more for now one of the worsed community's ive ever seen in a mmo.

Thats true sandbox for me is mostly that i gonne play it for longtime, but it seems a game like Darkfall all tho sandbox is short term for now its easy not complicated and no depth at all its all very simple, its a shame i had hoped it would be much deeper and complex game but its not.

Most sandbox have indeed richer community becouse of more deeper gameplay, again darkfall have none it seems have attracked mostly morons cheaters hackers:( and pk/gankers who wanne pk/gank24/7 then come to forum trash talk how l337they are:P

Themeparks can be short term but also longterm its mostly that they have instant reward in easy mode and guidance save playing ground without any risk, gameplay is mostly not very complex and deep.

Becouse in last 5 years so much have chance becouse of WoW also whole community for mmo's have chance thats prolly why Darkfall is so easy and can be played by anybody only the free for all and fulloot is stopping most from not playing it.

Both sandbox and themepark can have hardcore and casual dont think these days hardcore only play sandbox.

Darkfall is new kind of sandbox its easy to learn no deep gameplay craft system or combat and inspired by WoW BG and ARENA only they have made the whole game world one big BG/ARENA 24/7 pk/gank game almost nothing else to do.

Most will never agree on what other side represents sandbox will always have a smaller following playerbase then themepark.

Both can be fun also.

Torik · March 2009

Originally posted by Z3R01

Originally posted by GreenChaos

People that claim to be fans of sandbox MMOs are people that can't grasp that all MMO are non-linear, compared to linear single player games.

They are just people that want to bash games for the sake of bashing games, can't come up with any really reason to do so, so they call them themeparks, say they are linear, which isn't true - all MMOs are sandbox games.
Just think about a real linear game like portal - every room you are in is the only room you can be in at the time. You move from one room to the next, in a precise order. You can't go back or make choices as to where you go - ever. That is a linear game. No MMO is that linear.
People calling WoW a themepark have just run out of insults for it. There are many different ways to play WoW. You can solo and take your time leveling, you can get power leveled, you can buy a char on ebay, you can 2 box, 6 box, 32 box, raid in a guild, pvp, make mods. Or just fish if you really wanted to. Look, I don't even like WoW – but saying it's a themepark and that it's linear and not a sandbox, is just being ignorant and insulting for the sake of being insulting.

In WoW everything you do leads to blizzards Endgame. Sure you could quest and grind to level to that ENDGAME Or pvp unitl you ge tto that ENDGAME. Can you be a crafter without following blizzards predetermined character progression? Can I take a basic character in WOW and train every skill vailable in the game? without rolling ten alts? you say you can just be a fisherman in WoW? you sure because last time i played you needed to be a specific level to grab other fishing skill books. that right there forces you into doing something when all yu want to do is fish.

Sure WoW may have a couple sandboxy elements like being able to level up Weapon skills (something I feel blizzard dropped the ball on, it could have been a great mechanic. linking weapon skills to spells).

What type of freedom do you have when everything leads to either Arena/BG or raiding/dungeon crawling?

You think calling something a themepark is a insult? I disagree, I think of it as a MMO sub genre.

The way people on this forum use the word 'themepark' they most certainly mean it as an insult.

You seem to focus on the 'endgame' of WoW and lose perspective on all the other things WoW has that are not 'endgame'. As such you view everything in WoW as just a stepping stone to the 'endgame'. In doing so you miss a ton of non-endgame content that many people find fun. I've played WoW for years without touching endgame content and I had a blast.

And don't kid yourself. MMOs considered 'sandboxes' have plenty of linear progression elements. pre-NGE SWG and EVE won't let you train all the skills in the game. EVE's design blocks quite a few playestyles in order to funnel the players toward its 'endgame' (large fleet PvP battles).

BTW there are no level requirements in WoW on learning further ranks of fishing.

Cynthe · March 2009

Originally posted by Torik

The way people on this forum use the word 'themepark' they most certainly mean it as an insult.

Or maybe it's more used as a way to explain what we mean and make the difference between exploration on rails and free form exploration.

Rollotamasi · March 2009

Both styles have their pro's and con's. I prefer "theme park" style games as the "sand box" style MMO's I have played felt to much like work to me. That being said what really annoys me are the "Sandbox is the only way to go!!!111, if you like linear style u r n00b!!!!!" crowd.

CaptainTroll · March 2009

Originally posted by Impacatus

There's been a lot of debate between these two groups, and they can never seem to see eye to eye. It's baffling to one side why anyone would want the other type of game. People often say that one side is hardcore the other casual, or that one side consists of gamers the other of normal people, or that one side is more mature than the other. I think, however, that you will find all these types of people in both games.
I suspect that this is the difference:
Sandbox fans expect to stick to one game for the long term. As such, depth and complexity are important to keep the game entertaining, while pre-made content runs out. They plan to stick with the same community of players, so social based features are considered beneficial. They form an identity within the context of the game, and desire tools to help them express it such as character customization. They seek to distinguish themselves within the game, wanting their achievements to mean something. To them, even features they don't plan to explore are important because they provide for a richer community.
Linear fans, on the other hand, only plan to play a certain game for the short term. They expect to play through the game until they reach a certain point then look for something else to do. Therefore, the pre made content is what provides most of their entertainment, They don't have time or desire to get involved in the community in any meaningful way, so features oriented towards that are unnecessary. They want games that are easy to get into, because they change games and don't want to have to relearn everything each time.
In each group, there may be people who play many hours a week or few, who take risks or play it safe, who are old or young, but I suspect the difference is in how long they plan to play the game. Sandbox people want a game they can play forever, linear people just want a game.
Thoughts?

Theme park games are the superior style of gameplay of our generation. To say otherwise would be a complete fallacy and a crime on the behalf of the opposing confused party. Sandbox games are for confused little men and women who simply have no clue how to relate and adapt to the plethora of changes that occur in our everyday world. They can't hack it in the real world so they go to the fake world and play in the sand. They play in the sandbox with their little toy guns and their little toy soldiers hoping it will make the more than what they are but at the end of the day, when the sun is down and the moon is round, they ain't nothing but ordinary people living in an ordinary world. I know it's sad, but it's true, it's so true and you KNOW IT!!!!

Well anyway, I'm gonna get back to my game. WoW is the future, the sand is the past, get with the program folks and get out of the friggin BOX!!! PEACE!!!

Captain Troll looks over his message and marvels at his words. "I can't believe I wrote that" he thinks. I can't believe I actually said what I said!!" Captain Troll begins to giggle and jumps up and down in random directions. While jumping he trips over the pedastool in his room hitting his head on the ground. He begins to laugh in a manically manner jibbering nonsense and foolishness. "Oh my god I'm so AWESOME!!!" he says. "Everybody is going to be so stoked on me when they read what I wrote." He giggles some more, stands up, and dust himself off. The Captain goes tot he pedastool and stands on the item. Feeling uber he takes out his cocksaber, ignites it and dares anybody to challenge him on his beliefs and ideals. "I am the KING OF THE WORLD!!!" he screams swinging his saber back and forth in a wild and unmannerly way. Insanity is bearing down on the Captain and the Troll can't seem to bear the weight, sooner than later, darkness and madness may be his only friends...

Torik · March 2009

Originally posted by Cynthe

Originally posted by Torik

The way people on this forum use the word 'themepark' they most certainly mean it as an insult.

Or maybe it's more used as a way to explain what we mean and make the difference between exploration on rails and free form exploration.

Sure, if you say it like that then it is perferctly fine.

However, we also get stuff like this:

Sandbox player: You have played the "sandbox" style and have known the feeling of excitement, wonder, and freedom.

Linear player: You have never had a quality sandbox experience and think that "being led by the hand" through the candy store is as good as it gets and cannot fathom where you would go or what choices you might make were there not someone there to guide you and make them for you.

The message you get from that 'sandbox players' have seen the light and as such will experience 'the wonders of paradise'. The poor, deluded 'thempark' heathens are still lost wandering in the wilderness and untill they convert they will never experience true salvation.

It's this patronizing attitude that gets on a person's nerves and makes one think that maybe it's the 'sandbox' people who are full of it and don't really know what they are talking about.

gimmeapenny · March 2009

I like EVE because it takes me back to the early days of EQ where communtiy > the product, where the game is good because of what the players do with the toys the devs give them. I play an MMO to interact with players in a virtual world, griefing, wars, alliances, politics and so on, I don't want to play a mediocre RPG online.

Yes I do like a few of these games that are "themeparked" MMO's but only for a short while before I drop it for something else. It is my opinion though, some players like WoW a lot more than I ever will, whatever. I have a feeling I'll be sitting on EVE for a long time.

Z3R01 · March 2009

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Z3R01

Originally posted by GreenChaos

People that claim to be fans of sandbox MMOs are people that can't grasp that all MMO are non-linear, compared to linear single player games.

They are just people that want to bash games for the sake of bashing games, can't come up with any really reason to do so, so they call them themeparks, say they are linear, which isn't true - all MMOs are sandbox games.
Just think about a real linear game like portal - every room you are in is the only room you can be in at the time. You move from one room to the next, in a precise order. You can't go back or make choices as to where you go - ever. That is a linear game. No MMO is that linear.
People calling WoW a themepark have just run out of insults for it. There are many different ways to play WoW. You can solo and take your time leveling, you can get power leveled, you can buy a char on ebay, you can 2 box, 6 box, 32 box, raid in a guild, pvp, make mods. Or just fish if you really wanted to. Look, I don't even like WoW – but saying it's a themepark and that it's linear and not a sandbox, is just being ignorant and insulting for the sake of being insulting.