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Why does no MMO escape the endless "LFG" downtime - curse?
Elikal
Member UncommonPosts: 7,912
I am playing MMOs for about 6 years, almost, now. All the mayor titles, and some of the minor ones. I spent most time on SWG, EQ2, LOTRO, VG and COH, but also a lot in some others. Now the thing I really dont get is, why do I always end of spending a considerably growing time waiting in some village or soloing some trash mob quests yelling "Looking for group" for hours and hours?
EQ2 was the worst in this matter. I really would still play the game, but with all of my old friends gone, whenever I tried to return it was like this: I spent soloing, and in EQ2 soloing is hell. Its non rewarding, its super slow XP, its trash loot and trash quest rewards, and trash quests (kill 20 boars) as well. I usually log in, solo 3-4 hours all the time seeking some group, and then, feeling quite alone, I log out. This repeats for 2-3 weeks until I recall why I stopped playing EQ2 the last time and leave again. Saddnened, since I like the classes, races and stuff.
Same with VG and now even with LOTRO. Not that dire in LOTRO yet, but I find the time waiting for groups grows.
Somehow when a MMO grows older, and communities establish, you are either In or Out. Either you have your guild, your daily gaming time and your circle of close friends with whom you play together or you can shoot yourself in the foot. It seems a lot of people only play with people they know these days. Plus, the rise of soloable stuff also depleted the pool of potential allies in group quests. Some actually prefer to solo. Tho it sorta beats me why they come to a MMO in the first place, but so what.
Really, I enjoy a group considerably more, and soloing is what I do to fill the time gap until the next group at best. I really dont get why I spent so much time LFG in these games. Its kinda always the same end after some time. Ok, I am not anymore the MMO hog. I dont spent EVERY day in a MMO, so usually I am not a character people remember. I just lack the time for such a daily commitment now. Seems MMO-ing isnt made for casual gamers after all. (?)
I have my gripes with EQ2, as said. Never spent more time seeking groups than there. Also these days this gameplay of Fedex quests seems so outdated, but thats another topic. As to LOTRO, my current main MMO: it kinda seems people rush through this game. When I am away just a few days EVERYONE I know has already made 10 new levels, so I am unable to get into ANY communities. Today I am firm in my believe than levels in a MMO need to come slow, and not too fast.
So, am I am the only guy stuck in the endless LFG waiting line? Kinda seems like playing together got out of fashion.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Comments
SWG I always had a group and always had a guild and the game was so social focus without even feeling like you were forced down it that I was so happy in that game cause I was always doing things with people without even thinking about it. However games like WoW which are level based I feel like I have to grind 80 levels before I can group woth people cause the game is top heavy and thats such a downer where as in SWG I could group any time. Infact my first few mins in SWG were someone greeting me and askign me if I wanted to join their Guild to which I did and went out doing missions near BEstine with them for Imp faction.
Why I wish mor egame swere setup like SWG but with content so you had more things to do lol.
Pre CU obv.
Infact SWG is the only game that I can ever say I had true friends in and a guild. The people in RATS on Farstar were so nice and infact the whole community was so nice and helpful. The game was just designed around a nice community and punishing the people who wanted to grief. My fave mmorpg ever and one of my fave games ever and such a shame SOE ruined it all like Planetside. Now the SWG community is horrible and full of bitching due to SOE pissing everyone off
Just makes me sad to think it's the last true great mmorpg and I've been looking for a new mmorpg since 2005 and havn't found one yeat cause nothing compares to SWG pre CU.
I want to say EQ2 was perfect in Beta all the players were great and we were all grouping and the content was so fun with unique quests and it was th emost amazing mmorpg experience. However after launch all of a sudden there was too many servers and it was hard to find anyone to group with and all the people were trying to solo. Then everyone left for WoW and frigging I dunno all them groups I was getting in beta just suddenly went and I found myself grinding alone.
The final blow is when I used to spend all day and night grinding to level 20 in the CL and back then you could only take on one mob at a time solo and anything in a group of 3 was imposible. I got into my 20's and the grind got boring. Nek and TS and Antonica were some of the worst zones I've eever played in and they put everyone off playing.
I often have the same problem, I usually play at very irregular and strange times. Some weeks I may have free and play a lot, other weeks I might have huge amounts of work and be unable to login. It's really hard to get into any group or community with that playstyle, or even if I get they aren't online the same time I am, and looking for group is really painful especially at odd times.
I think games would need to give some kind of bonus for grouping with strangers. The game could easily keep a list of people each character has grouped with recently. And if there were characters the player hasn't grouped recently in the group, the player could get small bonus to experience, gold looted, or character power. Not too large, since a permanent group who can work seamlessly together should be better than random PuG. But some bonus so that PuGs wouldn't be so inferior that players with permanent groups don't want to ever join one.
And some kind of system to create several instances of the world at peak times, then merge them during off-hours, would be nice. There should always be people to play with.
I just went back to CoV, I have yet to spend more than one minute looking for a group. I've played both leveled 1, 35, and 45 chars. Central time 4am, 10am, 5pm, 8pm.
CoX - still going strong, and the new improvements are great, having two builds for one char being my favorite.
Thing is in SWG I always had a PUG and never lost anything in that game apart from when I died 3 times as a Jedi and had to start over with that unlock slot and then they changed it shortly after to losing XP
However in SWG having a PUG was usual and everyone knew what they were doing : Isn't like WoW where everyones like OMG I SUCK WHAT TO DO......
I dunno maybe we had a small biche community of thousands of ALTS but that game was setup perfect. I even remember getting my mate into the game in 2004 by tking him to Jabba's Palace and he played unil the CU where he quit cus he hated the changes and then join EVE and has stayed there only loggin in to train skills since lol.
I never have to spend any time LFG in WAR, and it is one of the reasons I love the game. The group panel shows all open groups in the area and I just choose the one that is doing whatever I wanted to work on. Since all groups and warbands are open by default, I never have trouble finding one. It's even easier now that you can mouseover the map to see how many people are at the Public Quests, as well as how many people are fighting and where they are in the RvR lakes.
-----Zero Punctuation Eve Online Review-----
I enjoy grouping as well and while I like to have the option to solo, I prefer to group and I believe MMOs should be primarily group oriented. The problem right now is, as you suggest, unless you are a part of a well established community/guild, or play on a regular basis with a bunch of friends, it is very difficult to find groups.
A major reason this "LFG downtime" exists is because of the level-based paradigm most MMOs subscribe to. Even class based systems affect LFG downtime because quests/instances often times require a certain class make-up in order to do them. Finding people of roughly the same level of a certain class make-up can be a pita. Some MMOs try to address this by implementing LFG/party modules, most of which do a terrible job. Then you have to consider the stereotype that strangers in LFG system are often subpar players.
People also have this preconceived notion that grouping with random strangers aka PUGing often leads to disaster, which is unfortunately very true in a lot of cases. Since people aren't exactly thrilled with the prospect of "failing", or not doing something as efficiently as possible - random strangers are often assumed to be below average players because good players tend to be in guilds, etc.
Sooo basically MMOs need to give better incentives for grouping, whether it's bonus exp for being in a party, having the ability to tune non-instanced mobs to group difficulty setting which would drop better loot/more gold, etc.
The problem is that you're playing the wrong games. Some game designers didn't put much thought into how to make it possible for players to find groups. If that bothers you (and I think it's reasonable that it does), then don't play those games.
Instead, try Guild Wars. The game doesn't subdivide players into tiny fragments to make you all but forbidden from grouping with 99% of the playerbase, the way so many other games do. The game has no notion of separate servers analogous to that of other games. It does have separate districts for different languages, but you can transfer between them in a few clicks.
Furthermore, it has an outpost for the start of each mission, where it puts everyone (of the same language, except that English is split between European and American) looking to do that mission. It only starts extra districts (which you can freely transfer between) if the district gets overfull. That makes it easy to find people looking to do the same content as you.
Additionally, you can group with just about anyone, without level and gear restrictions. This is because nearly everyone is at the level cap with essentially perfect gear, making them the right level to group with you. This is because you reach the level cap very quickly, and after that, the game is about doing the content.
Nor are you stuck with players who would like to group with you, but are too far away. You can warp to any town or outpost you've been to in a few clicks, as often as you like. If you want to do a mission and a guildie wants to come but is on a different content, he can join you in a few clicks. Or if you want to group, but don't know what for, once you have the people together, you can all warp to the appropriate place in a few clicks and start.
And if that's not enough, you can fill in henchmen and heroes (AI party members) in any remaining party slots. You can get as many players as you care to (up to the group size limit), and then fill in heroes for the rest. No need to spend half an hour searching for one particular class you're missing. Take whatever players come, and fill in heroes of suitable classes to fill out the group.
The upshot is that in Guild Wars, you can log on, get a group together, do the mission you're grouped for, and log off, all in less time than it takes just to get the group together at times in other games.
Thats why AC is best because u dont need LFG at all! you do whatever you want!
Kain_Dale
this is one of the biggest reasons i love this game. i dont have time to lfg for 30 min to an hour. its just ridiculous. RL requires toooo much from me to waste my time doing that
A large amount of mmorpg players are not cooperative game players and only want to take part in the mmorpg aspect of trading with players or just socializing, and not having artificial forced grouping mechanisms
That's a pretty significant portion of the mmorpg player crowd in fact, much more than the grouper types, if you consider crafting and related professions are for the most part ALL SOLO
That's my main problem with LOTRO, it's almost impossible to find groups for all the group content in the game. Also no one will even talk to you in the game if you aren't in their guild (kinship). Snobbiest game I've ever seen.
And even in Guild Wars there was this problem. Certain classes have no trouble finding groups, but others have a hard time (why i never finished the main storyline, got to the end, couldn't find groups, henchmen were too dumb to help)
R.I.P. City of Heroes and my 17 characters there
Not sure what server you play on for CoX but I've never been short on blind invites on Virtue let alone when I actually toggle LFG. But others, yes its guild or get comfortable.
I've felt that same about a few games. But I never had that problem with CoH. For me, CoH was the easiest MMO to find groups.
Fortunately during my EQ2 time I had a number of real life friends playing it as well so I never had to spam LFG there.
FFXI was the worst for downtime spent LFG. The game itself is really good but I got frustrated spending more time searching for groups than I did actually doing something.
The "established communities" is something I can relate to also. I started playing Lineage 2 long after release, during the majority of my time playing I always felt like an unwelcomed guest. It was only during the last month or so that I got into a decent clan but by that time I was already bored and left shortly afterward.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Just about everything in Guild Wars is doable with only henchmen and heroes. Completely clearing a few elite farming areas might not be, in part because you can't take henchmen, so you'd be shorthanded. The Eternal Grove hard mode is rough with only henchmen and heroes, but with two players and six heroes, it's quite doable.
In easy mode, all of Prophecies and Factions (the campaigns that don't give you heroes) are quite doable with only henchmen and no heroes.
I agree with you 100% on this one. What you described was EQ back in 06 but with less solo lol imo. Anyways, yes, mmo's should be about grouping. There mush be incentives about grouping. Shoot me all, but you have to establish some forced grouping. You just have to do it in order for people to group. Simply because most of the new age mmo gamers are use to the solo capablities, via WoW. The holy grail mmo will consist of a EQ community and EQ type of grouping with some solo content. However, there should be more bonuses for grouping and the time to "level" should be hastened moreso than soloing.
You brought up such a great point had to respond. Recently made it to 47 in lotr. Did much of mm, agmir, forchel, now it is mostly group quests left and epic quest book as well as class quest in quest journel. I cannot finish class quest cannot find certain parts. There has been some changes and things not added /updated to certain data bases.
There are many parts of the group quests that require a mix that lotr loves to make signature mobs, and underlines they come with pals pounce at one time. The idea of pulling at least in lotr instances do not seem to work as well as in older dated mmorpgs. Remember df in daoc? Sitting on ledges pulling ??? Not in lotr
While i am on a very busy server and there are many crowded areas with the new expansion Moria obviously folks are exploring that area and new free update folks are excited about coming soon they will also be exploring that as well.
Op you bring up a great point... Even with a great guild and a large guild they will not hold your hand through the leveling process. Most certainly if everyone is on a different book part of the quest adds its own issue.
This also brings up the idea is there ever Ever a reason to enter a mmorpg that is 2 + years? If the exp is quest based mostly. At one point turns into mostly group quests and groups cannot be found. Then to me that sets up a road block that cannot be passed.
There is a area in lotr ( yes i know all mmorpgs have them) in eastern agm that is so hard caverns signature mobs flying things that soloing seems to be not doable there. Yet there are quests labeled as soloable.
Like op stated i am a group hound even log in during prime time yet in certain areas of the game ( a 2 year out game) has areas that lff the only response you get is Crickets.......
If you are complainging about wait times for a group then trying playing FFXI. FFXI wait times for a group will make your complaints about the games you listed seem trivial. FFXI is a excellent game that i love to play but quit playing because i spent most of my time looking for a group. As soloing as a Black Mage is impossible in the game, quiting was my only option.
I think its mostly because games force players into a role (class), and no other class can fill that spot in a group. This is a good way to design the game, but that is only if the population of classes can be kept fairly balanced. I think if games offered multiple areas for different mixes of parties to group then most "LFG" time will be kept at a minimum.
It must be that GROUP time in MMO are over. Just look at LOTRO.
At launch it had at least 50% group required quests. In quest chain , last one (or even two) were always group quests.
Than slowly they introduced 3 man group, quests. Than they even introduced some kind of 3 man group, instances ?!
Now i got to Mines of Moria. And in whole lot of expansion quests , there are like 2 group quests. Even epic book quests are now solo. And instances that force you to solo (you can not enter with group)
This is sign of times
The lowest common denominator had spoken. Masses want to solo.
Dont take my word for it. Just look at SWTOR - they even give you AI companions so you dont need to group with other players.
I think MMOs had hit the rock bottom. And global crisis is now digging hole for it.
We are looking at the end of subscription based MMOs and era af cheap, solo oriented ,item shop , casual grinders
If there wasn't a ridiculous level divide, and there wasn't ridiculous travel times I don't think there would be a problem. I mean imagine it, you go on a server and you are able to group with anyone. Would that help the grouping situation? - it certainly would.
Oh god, not this again! Look, MMOs have flourishing auction houses/bazaars, Holiday events, players/friends who craft things for you to specification, or gather resources you need or enchant things you need, a chat system to communicate with friends, GMs to help with issues and problems, a mail system to send stuff to friends/alts and vice versa - single-player games do not have all these features. Is that explicit enough for you?
For hopefully the last time - "Massively Multiplayer Online" does not mean "Players have to group". Accept it and stop plaintively wailing about it. No wonder I don't PUG any more!
This is exactly why i only like playing MMO's when they are new. It's always easy to find groups and make new online aquaintences to help advance. The older they get the worse it is. People create alts all the time but they usually either solo, have a friend help them level or two box.
I used to be lucky playing MMO's with 2 other rl friends. The three of us would be playing at my apartment always signing up for the same games. We would create characters best suited to make a group work and be completely independant of the rest of the community. If we needed more it was never a problem finding 1 or two other players to join up.
Now i find myself playing these MMO's alone and seeing their short comings. I can't for the life of me see the appeal anymore. I now have to kiss peoples asses to be a part of some inner circle crap, to be picked out to go on a 20 man raid out of a guild with 200 members. That's an exaggeration but it pretty much sums it up. I hate asking others for help in online games for several reasons. For one i just have a hard time accepting help..second once i do accept help people want the favor returned when it's always the most inconvenient making you feel guilty for saying no.
Anyways im rambling. Yes looking for groups does suck donkey balls. The way around it seems to be to create a class everyone needs like a healer or tank. Another solution would be to play a game where any setup works, because you don't have the holy trinity ala Hellgate London. However those types of games are too casual for my liking.
I'm currently in the process of writing a book discussing the solo vs. group aspects of MMO games.
First of all, its obvious that a game that allows solo play removes the downtime aspect.
Second, part of the problem comes from "classes" and "levels". For example, many games suffer from a lack of priests, which can cause a whole group to disband if they can't support themselves with healing. As well, when there is a void of levels for the quest or instance present, the group disbands.
The solution becomes and alternative to all three of those MMO concenpts: group-play, class, and level. If you create a game that isn't focused on group play, people will have more solo alternatives. If you destroy the concept of the class and level, people will group more on social aspects.
It might also be worth mentioning that LFG problems created the need for broadcast "channels", which violate one of the precepts of socializing. This, subsequently, caused gold-sellers and less immersion as people whisper across a zone.
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Blog -Transcendent''s Tomb - Reviews, Polls, and tortured opinions from the minions of MMORPGS
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Hhussk
- Same for me on Freedom. The only way I can see you having any trouble is if you are on a very low pop server, you have a message that says NO Blind invites, No Tells I am Soloing or you don't have LFG set to Looking for ANY team or maybe you have it accidentally set to NOT accepting invites. You might need to check it from time to time. I have found sometimes especially after a fresh install or a re-install the game sometimes defaults to NOT accepting invites and you could have accidentally turned on the HIDE function which will make you un-inviteable and you won't recieve tells....
edit : My message often reads Invite ME!!! or Invite Me!!! NO TELLS NEEDED!! or something similar unless i am looking for a certain TF/SF or AV then i will say so.
/carry on