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There may be hope for the fans of EverQuest.
Sorlozer
Member Posts: 5
A long time ago, a friend told me of a game called EverQuest. A huge world where you and many online play together to accomplish great feats. The idea of playing with so many online intrigued me and I quickly became a fan of my favorite genre of games... MMORPGs. I was in EverQuest when there was only the first 3 islands. I spent months playing characters choosing what I would like to play and then spent months gaining that character to the max level. I was a casual gamer, and it took me nearly a year since I started the game to finally have a character, that I enjoyed, to the max level. Soon after, Kunark released. Another island added into the world, I again had to gain levels, but soon I was level 60, and the real fun started. I fought dragons such as Lord Nagafen, Lady Vox, many times my guild went and we failed. We went to the Plane of Fear, or Plane of Air, and fought against minions of those places. My chosen profession was a monk, and therefore a puller. I couldn't tank well, I would almost never be the top of a dps chart, and I could only heal myself every 6 minutes. However, I loved to pull mobs, I loved to Feign Death Flop. Myself and a monk friend became pullers for a family guild. Although I couldn't tank, heal, or dps as good as others, I could pull mobs, and I was happy to do it. I spent weeks and months, learning how to kill certain mobs, and finding certain items. My first feat was camping the Undead Cyclope for 10 days to get the boots of speed. I spent weeks trying to kill for a Flowing Black Silk Sash. Best of all, I spent weeks after weeks after weeks farming a bunch of mobs for an EPIC quest. After getting each piece of the quest for my epic item, after getting the FBSS, after getting the boots of speed, I had the same feeling. I was happy, I got what I sent out to do after a lot of hard work. I didn't care the rogue's quest was easier or the cleric's item was better, I was happy with my item and my quest. Some parts were easy, that was another great part. The EverQuest community was great, a piece for an epic quest would drop, and if no one needed it, they'd send tells around finding someone that did. People were nice to each other, there was respect for players. If you were a crappy player, or incredibly rude, you'd never find a group and could not level up. At the max level, I could recognize players without seeing their name, I knew who was the only player to have that sword, or that helm. I never felt so much achievement in a game as when we were the first ones to kill this mob, or the first ones to have this item. Velious was out for 7 months before anyone on my server killed the Avatar of War, that was a hard fight! We'd race other guilds for raid kills and congratulate, or be congratulated on world first anythings, or even first time for our guild. The community and the feel of success in EverQuest was an achievement created in no other game. But it came to an end.
SoE took over EverQuest, and that was okay, who cares who makes a game as long as it was good. They added a planet, Luclin, it was ok. There were a lot more bosses, keys to go to high level raid zones, etc. It was fun, but the sad part was, it destroyed the old content. The items were too powerful. Items quickly became insane with SoE at the helm. Soon Plane of Power came out, and it was a blast. My guild, was only 80 people (very small for EverQuest) and we were the first family guild on the server to go all the way to the elemental planes. My monk friend and I would chain pull Plane of Fire bosses all the way to the entrance. Again, the items were too powerful, but it was fun, we raced the lead guilds for raid targets, although we only raided 3 times a week we eventually killed everything there was created in the game, even all the Gods. Sadly... that was SoEs next mistake. The Gods were previously being added one by one in their planes, and now they were all here and we killed them. We also killed all the dragons of Veeshan's peak, the other dragons, we released the sleeper. The lore behind Mistmoore, Lady Vox, Lord Nagafen, and the sleeper, basically ended. We killed the GODS. What else was there to do?
Soon Gates of Discord came out, I was not very impressed. There was epic 1.5 and 2.0 quests, and they were fun, but the game I loved was slowly dieing. News of EQ2 came about and many of my friends decided to quit to try it out. There was also news of a MMORPG by Blizzard. I decided to beta both and choose. I had so much fun in World of Warcraft I decided thats what I would play. Slowly, Blizzard destroyed MMORPGs with WoW...
The low levels were fun, in about a month I was level 60, no great feat didn't take a year. I didn't mind to level so fast, and the thought that I was doing it mostly solo didn't bother me either at the time. Then I was 60, in a guild, raiding MC. It was fun, but there was no need to really compete against other guilds. Sure there was a little bit, but in the end, them killing the mobs didn't stop us from killing the mobs and heck, letting them do it over and over would eventually just make it easier for us to do because they could find a strategy. Eventually level 60s were flooded with people who can't play with others. Anyone could level to 60, with no help from others on a MMORPG, why? It defeated the purpose of playing the game online. People could level so fast and alone, preventing a real community from being formed. Soon the boards were flooded with people wanting to be healers and top dps and tanks and Blizzard did their best to please everyone. Eventually Blackwing Lair came out, it was also fun to raid. But slowly the raiding became easy, the game became casual, even though it was not that hardcore in the first place. Anyone could lead a raid easily. Anyone could get the best gear in the game. Noone could have the feeling of uniqueness. World of Warcaft became the MMORPG for Casual Players. Because of this, MILLIONS started playing, blizzard made millions and millions of dollars. I am happy for them, and they created a great game, for casual players, but in doing so they destroyed the genre I loved. They destroyed MMORPGs for the hardcore players or even just for people that want a challenge in a game. World of Warcraft I think is perfect for the masses, and sure EverQuest wasn't perfect, but it was closer to perfect for the gamers than World of Warcraft is. Obviously all companies makes games to make money, so they try and copy World of Warcraft's format to hopefully appease the masses, however gamers like myself are left to wonder if MMORPGs will ever be resurrected to it's former glory. I could talk for hours about why EverQuest was so great, the economy, community, friends, enemies, items, lore, etc. It just accidently was a great game. And it was dead, and would not come back to how it was. Many knew that only a few things could happen to make a game with these things again possible... and one happened.
The only way for games like EverQuest to be recreated again is for someone to create a game that is NOT in competition with World of Warcraft. Then comes along Blizzard with the announcement of a MMORPG. I excitedly hear this news, this could be it! Why make a game for casual players to drag people away from their own game? Jeffery Kaplan (Tigole) who was guild leader of Legacy of Steel (Quite possibly the strongest guild in EverQuest) was assigned to this new game, again giving hope to the fans of EverQuest. Jeffery has the power to create a game like the one he loved, like the one his friends loved. One with competition, one with long searches for items of value, and the feeling when you finally got it, one with "camp checks", one with "trains to the entrance", one with a main plot, one with class's role not being simply dps, tank, healer only (like EQ's Tank, healer, dps, range dps, magic dps, puller, pacifiers, slowers, buffers, stealthers, bards), heck one that is funny like World of Warcraft, but one with a community. Jeffery Kaplan has power to shape the MMORPG world. The team will either succeed, or fail. Only they can revive the experience MMORPGs once delivered. A game that would shape the characteristics of someone in real life. Teaching integrity, but most of all just to have a damn good time and cheer in your microphone with your guild when a mob you spent weeks on finally dies, or the smile you had when you finished your epic quest, heck, even the time you had a level 10 warrior with full crafted armor and 2 swords of lamentation when the best warrior in the second best guild on the server only had half of that. The days when you could be proud of what you did in a game and people were actually impressed. I played EverQuest for years and I knew who "Fires of Heaven" and "Legacy of Steel" were. I cannot name a guild from another game, because no one cares, they aren't special, they are like everyone else. I want a game where people have roles in a raid. I want a game that is MMO, not just RPG. I want a game again where I can look to certain group and think "damn, they are good. Maybe one day we'll be able to kill that mob too."
Good Luck Tigole! I don't want to make you feel pressured or anything, but at the same time I would like to say to you from the community of EverQuest... please, don't fuck this up.
I wish I could email this straight to him...
Sorazz Lozer
70 Monk Lanys T'vyl (Retired 2004)
Sorry for the long post. I have a lot more I'd want to say...
Comments
lol thanks for the long post, i will read this later. was actually just visiting to check on something.
You almost made me cry.
I wish every day they would open a classic EQ server because I am bored with no MMO, but i've tried them all and nothing can replicate the experience. I just can't enjoy EQ as it is now.
I have played EQ since day and basically to this day. I have quit several months ago, however.
I played on the NAMELESS SERVER with Legacy of Steel, and I just two years ago learned of FIRES OF HEAVEN.
In fact, I think the cause, and not the solution to, EQ's problems revolved around raid content and the guilds that emerged around it. Group-focused gameplay and community-oriented guilds evaporated as raiding increasingly took on the focus for content, items, and even community.
Edit
I just finished reading the last paragraph, and I think you really have a very different sense of Legacy of Steel than what was reality.
That guild was one of the biggest, if not the biggest, group of cheaters in Everquest history. I have spoken with "Tigole" in game years and years ago in Everquest and I had friends in Legacy of Steel.
It amazes me, from both an in-game and real-life perspective, the absolute nonsense I hear about that guild. The guild was a bunch of people whose lives surrounded around playing Everquest through the use of every cheat, exploit, bug, and third-party program; these were not a bunch of "skilled" people. These were people who manipulated the game for their own ends. And, I think, the content they have sense created is bad. It is one reason why I dislike WoW. WoW's dungeons are not comparable to EQ's dungeons, and I anticipate they never will be. The point, however, is that many of these so-called "raid guilds" were nothing more, or less, than people who exploited the game for their own ends.
I am sorry to tell you that your idea about these people is far (far) from accurate. It was not their "dedication" or "skill" or "determination" or "gaming style" that provided them with advantages. It was their ability, willingness, and readiness to cheat, to exploit, to hack, and so forth for personal gain.
The EQ raid guilds such as Legacy of Steel need to be exposed for what they were.
I posted this exact thing on the WoW Forums and there was a lot of discussion on it, got to about 4 pages and then the GMs deleted it
Well, at least they read it I guess.
That's so long I'm not going to read it, but I do want to know if there is in fact some sort of "hope" for EQ fans and classic servers.
I am making this game, its going to happen.
I too have fond memories of EQ when it was a real challenge. I remember as a cleric, and really all classes, having to perfect your role to perform well with high end groups or raids. Now its all button mashing with the focus on expediency and ease of use.
When I played EQ I remember being frustrated with some of the long camps, but now, some of those camps or long quest lines bring back great memories of having really earned something. I had a much greater sense of accomplishment in EQ than probably any other game.
The one thing that was always lacking was a real sense of community other then our guild. For that Ultima Online and Asherons Call delivered a lot of features which promoted interaction on many levels.
In my opinion, the ultimate game for me would be a mix of the following;
- Asheron Call community tools and guild features such as patron trees, guild earned rewards and player driven bazaars not to mention monthly story driven updates. I was also a huge fan of the extended quest chains in Asherons Call that were similar in complexity and time as EQ1.
- Ultima Online's sandbox features relative to crafting, trading and building construction. I also loved many of the "hobby skills". There was nothing like opening your own store on a major trade route in UO or building your very own castle and neighborhood.
- EQ's depth of quests and class identities. Im a a proponent of class complexity that enhances game play and requires some skill and experience to execute properly. All the button mashing bores me to tears. It was very easy to discern a purchased class level over someone who had actually levelled up in EQ1. Being skilled at your class in EQ1 came with recognition and pride.
- Dark Age of Camelot's had some finer moments in terms of reactive combat dynamics and tiered skill executions. Reacting to a real-time opening and successfully completing a 3 or 4 tiered attack sequence with a final blow animation evoked a great sense of combat drama. I also liked the RVR options and later tower sieges and wall scaling. Im not a big pvp fan anymore and RVR provided a tamer more community based reality then having to suffer through the normal griefing or carebear hexing from the kids.
- Dungeons and Dragons Online for its complex, interactive and engaging dungeon crawls and instanced treasure.
And then there was Lord of the Rings Online. In terms of story line and the overall pve experience LOTRO has done an amazing job. I have played since early beta and am still finding places to see and things to do. I especially enjoy the diversity at the end-game for those of us not completely addicted to min/max gaming. Unlike WOW, Lotro really expands in depth and gameplay opportunities. You have lots of choices early on in WOW but as you level your options become a lot more linear and pretty much end with making an alt or raiding. LOTRO is really defined by its great story and while there are lots of raids there are also lots of alternatives for the pve mindset that include crafting, exploring, factions, deeds, lore, musical instruments (you can actually join a player symphony or start a band), titles, housing and diverse and challenging adventures for every group dynamic. It's not perfect but Turbine has the best history (imo) of introducing new content and continually evolving a solid and stable game experience.
While I'm more often your typical forum browser I felt compelled to post a reply to your experience in EQ and thoughts about gaming in general. I am guessing there are many more like us that are looking for more depth and complexity from developers in the future. Lately i have felt that most publishers are looking to clone WOW with a twist and try to realize the same level of success.
I constantly see developers reinforcing the idea of building a "gamers game" or spamming the familiar "we are listening to the community" and then release a problematic beta for bucks collectors edition. I had great hope for several games over the years with amazing potential like AO and AoC. In the end some short-sighted executive decided to kill them off early and retire on box sales.
My last hope for a major mmorpg title will sit with BioWare who has a great history of careful deliberation, engaging storylines and ingenuity. If that fails we can try asking Bernie Madoff to build us a fantasy world of such scope and complexity it will consume all the world's gamers. After all, mmorpg's provide a never ending sense of accomplishment without ever delivering any real life rewards not to mention the years lost, wives divorced and dreams abandoned, right up his alley or rather cell.
Del Cabon
A US Army ('Just Cause') Vet and MMORPG Native formerly of Trinsic, Norath and Dereth. Currently playing LOTRO.
BS...
I come from Mithaniel Marr server, which was home to Afterlife. Them and Triton were a couple of the other big players with FoH and LoS.
Back then AL, and guilds like FoH would have GMs watching them take down the new content.
Furor from Fires of Heaven made a name for himself blogging what was going on, as FoH was in a rush to knock out server wide firsts constantly. Some of his updates just plain rocked.
As a spectator looking in, I was really impressed how much time they put into solving the cutting edge stuff. Eating death after death...and back then death meant something in EQ.
I am sure they used things such as ShowEQ in play...but the ghost killing, and other hacks that come along after they left, couldnt of been accomplished with a GM standing over them. Not to mention all the races to content back then due to no instancing. YOu had to be ready to get to a zone, and drop a mob in an instants notice at times.
I have heard it talked about that Furor got his first char banned for a no-trade exploit. Chit like that isnt what I consider "cheating" to get server first kills. He should of been banned, and was. IN the grand scheme of things it means nothing though....FoH, AL, and the other guilds all had to figure chit out on their own. They didnt have Alla to fall back on...they were the ones feeding Alla info.
So many folks on MMORPG wanna cry all the time about their "virtual world". Give me the days of guilds competing, and PU groups that were worthwhile cause folks had a rep to maintain.
That is gaming.
Not this "2nd life wanna be chit" that this site always concentrates on. If you dont stand around ,and cheer "sandboxes are number 1", some folks stomp their feet or call ya names cause you are disagreeing with their playstyle.
A niche of gamers controls the direction of this site, and it is a shame that they are allowed to run their mouths off to directed content gamers because of their dislike for sandboxes. In essence making them not wanna post here, even though PvE directed content is a much bigger fan base.
Stuff like the old days of AL and FoH was part of what made Everquest so good. That type of talk should be encouraged here...not what panties are Uncle Owen going to wear today.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Blizzard will never invest in an MMO like classic EQ, it just wouldn't be big enough.
GoD expansion was a disaster
Guilds were leaving the game and SOE created their "Player Summits" to discuss saving the game
this was before EQ2, before WOW
EQ2 fan sites
I completely sympathize with the OP. I had 3 Characters in EQ1, and 1 that belonged to a friend in which I used very often to help out my groups.
I played on Bertoxxolus, I miss the days of true bartering and haggling, where more than half of the transactions didn't involove a penny, aka The Tunnel in Eastern Commonlands. Where you could take a FBSS, and with enough time detirmination and skill at bartering you could make yourself a very wealthy individual. When I would log on my Monk Chikoriss run into Dreadlands and call for a camp check, get replies of North Wall camped, giants camped. Where fighting mobs in a group 10-15 levels higher than you at level 40 was normal, and the only way to really level.
I miss faction grinds on my Warrior where the entire guild had to have a concensus on what faction they were going with in Velios as it determined what gear everybody would be able to get. When things took time and effort to accomplish.
I most of all enjoy making sure I maintained a good reputation, The games now people will forget your name in a week, and that's be generous. I still remember one of the best Warriors I ever grouped with. Thucydides Human warrior last I saw him he was level 60 in full Kael gear.
I miss that game, and I wish so much that it was still what it used to be.
Played - EQ 1/2, WoW, SWG, SWTOR, GW 1/2 UO, STO, CO, DCUO, AO, Rift.
Wall'o'text hits Elikal with 786876 crit. BUT Elikal has wonder-wand if magical transformation he looted:
http://www.naturalreaders.com/
Ok after listening to this, I am impressed. I can agree on some, but disagree with others.
First, I must admit I know little about WOW. I played maybe 2-3 months, but not very profoundly. Just wasnt my kind of thing. DIdnt like the races or classes, but I cant really say how "easy" it is.
For me, gaming of the EQ or UO era was out of the question. Just stuff like sitting down 2 minutes after every fight to see my health and mana go up or camping boss mobs for 5 hours made MMos a NO-NO. I did it, tried it, but it wasnt my definition of fun. I can understand you feel proud of the "hard work" and I dont want to take that away from you. However I would partially dispute it was really difficult; I hear that here often. Games used to be more difficult, hence the feeling of accomplishment was greater. I dont mind difficult, I just dispute that the majority of these things in EQ was difficult. It was taking long time.
Difficult was the Trial of Obi-Wan. The Jedi unlock was not difficult, it was just a LONG grind. A timesink is not a difficulty, it only challanges my patience to idly sit at Lake Whatever and wait for the Boss Fish to spawn. Everyone can do that. Its no challange.
It's just a sidenote, but I never was a raid person either. My ideal MMO experience is the classic adventure group going on some mission with 4-6 people. I always found raid just a chaotic hassle and didnt really enjoy them. IMVPO a raid is something that should be only for fun, not for the uber items. Every possible item should be available for a normal 6-person group. But thats just my opinion since I dont like raids. They take this small-circle personal feeling away when I am just one of 40 soldiers in an army. I too think some games today make it too easy, WAR for instance. Not that there IS much to accomplish in WAR when every robe looks almost the same and has only tiny different stats anyway. However I am all for individuality in items, and sure there is way too less diversity now. I dont like WOW personally, but I think it has its audience. Its the classsic MMO for kids playing it with their parents, or guys playing it with their girlfriends, thus bringing in people who would normally not play a MMO anyway. To a large degree WOW just made his own playerbase, so I dont really mind it.
I too value games with a deep and complex gameplay, but IMO that doesnt mean we should go back to the past, but instead we have to find new way to bring in depth and complexity. Being no game designer I can only partially imagine how this can be done. The focus on personal story as aimed in SWTOR sounds like a good idea, for once. Plus, playing EQ2 for a long time, just making things complex and difficult never was satisfying in itself. EQ2 always had this feeling of a bit soulless world, I can't help it. Just toss in uber complex quests with 786 steps to accomplish things alone is not enough. And if we can really see the community I knew from the old days again, needed to accomplish those complex things? I am not sure. I guess we will see. ^^
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Count me in for a dungeon centric, "camp check" game.
It was both.
So far no one has captured lightening in a bottle twice.
Garriott made UO, considered one of the ground breaking games of the MMORPG genre. Then he made the dung pile called Tabula Rasa.
Brad McQuaid worked on EQ, again one of the most copied designs in the MMORPG industry and where WoW gets it's basic gameplay from. Then he made Vanguard, which was another dung pile that failed to capture EQ with updated graphics, although that was supposed to be the gaol.
I don't think an MMO dev veteran will make the next big game that's as fun as EQ, and doesn't bore me to tears like WoW with it's solo friendly game play, pre-raid levels. I think it will have to come from a new developer.
I would never want Blizzard invest in EQ. That would piss of EQ fans to the max.
If you mean that you can't enjoy EverQuest 2, I certainly understand. Note that the classic EverQuest servers are still there. I took a trip down memory lane with my original 1999 character about a year ago.
EverQuest 1 would bore you to tears if you went back today. That's because there's nobody there. EverQuest was the amazing experience that it was because it was essentially the only MMO in town. The servers were packed, and the grind was difficult. That meant that the game community was more stable than it is today; a player stayed in level 20 for quite a while, and got used to seeing other level 20s grinding the same content day after day.
I played quite a bit and only got my one character to level 45. That's a grindy game.
I don't have fond memories of hour-long corpse retrievals. Of spellbook meditation. Of wizards in SRo ganking the AC spawn. Of endless LFGs because you weren't playing one of the holy trinity classes. Of 2 minute kills and 10 minute downtimes to regen. Of deleveling and sadistic, punitive XP losses on deaths.
I have played EQ since 2000. I have done the solo routine all the way through being a raid leader in a high-end guild. The game has a lot to offer, but the earliest days of EverQuest were not really its finest days, in my opinion.
I will read this later, perhaps during Easter break..
I was really impressed how much time they put into solving the cutting edge stuff.
I am sure they used things such as ShowEQ in play
I have heard it talked about that Furor got his first char banned for a no-trade exploit. Chit like that isnt what I consider "cheating" to get server first kills.
The challenge of responding to your post is that you managed to do not two things but three things simultaneously:
Where, or what, is the "BS" since you agree with me these people were hacks, cheats, and exploiters. You were impressed with them for whatever reason. I was never, and I am still not today, impressed with them. In fact, I hold them accountable for how the direction and focus of EQ went from community content and community guilds to raid content and raid guilds.
The fact is you were "impressed" by them, despite their hacking, cheating, exploits, and third party programs, which to ME is "BS."
Bobfish said "Blizzard will never invest in an MMO like classic EQ, it just wouldn't be big enough."
Sorry, cant get [quote][/quote] thing to work, dunno the code. ;P
Anyway, Why not? Go for a new target audience. When Blizzard made Starcraft, people who liked strategy games flocked to it, even people from Diablo did, but Diablo remained strong with it's community. When World of Warcraft was created, people who liked mmorpgs flocked to it, and starcraft is still alive, diablo is stil alive. Go for a new target, go for the people that want that time sink, the people that don't go out and play sports for a hobby. I play sports for fun, but games are my hobby. Give US a game, make us your target. It will only get new dedicated players, and World of Warcraft will remain strong with their own target audience. Other companies have to compete with World of Warcraft and make a better casual game, but Blizzard is not limited to that. Blizzard is basically the only company that can start going after this new target audience, and by new, I mean the ones patiently waiting to the side while everyone else tries some easy versions of the genre.
Ok.... maybe not too patiently...
Why would Blizzard waste money on buying an IP from a competitor when it has 3 Larger and better Lore-wise IP's and now creating a new 4th IP for their new MMO.It seems a waste of money on their part.If ever Sony drops the EQ IP i bet someone else will pick it up but it wont be Blizzard.
I think the original poster made a lot of great points whoever he was NOT a casual player. A casual player could not do 60 levels of wow in a month. Nor 60 in eq1 in a year, Many casuals in my guilds in fact never reach max level. Taking the vast knowledge he has for eq and MMo's in general I would deem him a hard core raider. Nothing wrong with that but let's call a spade a spade. I also agree that raiding was was the nail in the cofin for eq. Just my 2 cents
Wonderful post! I am in the same boat with you friend. We can only hope. Maybe Tigole with give us something great to play, can only wait and see.
I was really impressed how much time they put into solving the cutting edge stuff.
I am sure they used things such as ShowEQ in play
I have heard it talked about that Furor got his first char banned for a no-trade exploit. Chit like that isnt what I consider "cheating" to get server first kills.
The challenge of responding to your post is that you managed to do not two things but three things simultaneously:
Where, or what, is the "BS" since you agree with me these people were hacks, cheats, and exploiters. You were impressed with them for whatever reason. I was never, and I am still not today, impressed with them. In fact, I hold them accountable for how the direction and focus of EQ went from community content and community guilds to raid content and raid guilds.
The fact is you were "impressed" by them, despite their hacking, cheating, exploits, and third party programs, which to ME is "BS."
You are playing on semantics.
As I indicated, it is well known that GMs would show up to watch these guilds take out the latest content in new expansions. They had to because that was how Devs would fine tune encounters.
ShowEQ was a program that allowed folks to know what was available in a zone without having a gar present. A common item from what I hear, although my guild never used it that I know of(we were small time). Did in no way make encounters easier...just save time in choosing targets.
Furor got his first char banned for trying to transfer a no drop item between characters. What the frack does this got to do with anything when it comes to raiding? I only mentioned it cause I figured some dweeb would come along going "but but but". Hello dweeb.
It is a shame you are so butthurt over the raiding guilds in EQ's past. It was cool having Afterlife around on MM. They had their own share of server firsts including the first Quarm kill.
It takes dedication to be a hard core raider. Something you wouldnt understand unless you took part in it...which obviously you havent else you would be so quick to put these folks down. For years all these guilds have done is play their games hardcore. You can say "well big deal....let them show dedication in something else". Yeah that is true...these are only games...but these individuals worked as a team for hrs on end, and months on end. Taking on something they enjoyed.
If they were such "cheaters" they wouldnt of needed to put all the hrs in. They could of just hit the "I win" button, and be done with it. Instead they kept 60/70 people motivated and working together. Something that impresses me in game.
When you can do the same,then lets hear about it. Otherwise STFU, you are boring me to tears already. sheesh
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.