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Weekly Discussion 11/16
Lyra-Stone
Lyra Studios DevMember Posts: 31
For those who haven't been following Rec or just are unfamiliar with the teacher position: Teachers are fellow players who have gone down the path of teaching. This enables them to grant new arts and higher plateaus (levels) in arts to people by questing them for the art or plateau.
The teacher position is one of great influence in Reclamation. What sort of apprenticeship process would you like to see for attaining this position? What would count towards a dreamer attaining teacherhood? What would count against them?
Lyra-Stone
Lyra Studios, LLC
http://reclamationgame.com
http://underlight.com
Lyra-Stone
Lyra Studios, LLC
http://reclamationgame.com
http://underlight.com
Comments
Oh I really Hate this place. once again I have written out a nicely detailed post and sumbit it and then go back to look at the forum, to find that my post didn't post.
seriously this place is BaaaaaaD!!!!
OK well I am not gonna write it all out again. so instead here is the short version......
Well I think everyone getting mentor is cool, make thing so much easier about getting arts platted to 19, though of course I am a little worried about abuse, but you know there is always someone about to abuse a good thing.
Second NEED MORE TEACHERS. Really I am not too chuffed on what they do or dont do to become a teacher we nned more expecially for dreamers that dream at odd times, expecially with the new restrictions on how often you can see a teacher that you guys are putting in.
Secondly I think should be a rating system so that uses rate the particular teacher/mentor they saw to get their plat/art. this could be a good guideline to determine if someone is ready to become a teacher, by the rating given to them by those they have taught with the mentor art.
Also I think that becoming a teacher shouldn't be so hard but more staying a teacher. So say we are using the rating system if their rating begins to fall to low they can then know that there is something they need to change to better accomadate their students.
Plus I think this rating system would make things easier on you lyrans to understand what works best when coming to teaching and what the players prefer, and enable you to provide better support to your teachers, and those mentors who want to be teachers.
Still not terribly short, but much shorter than my first attempt, right now time to C&P just in case this one dont stick.
anyways my thoughts from thin air x2
Jeremy
OMG IT WORKED THANK GOD FOR THAT. GET A NEW HOME!!
you know stone this is a subject that everyone in UL could speak about...
Only problem is here is how it is managed afterward... To become a teacher of course you must prove yourself to be whorthy, but how can someone do this?
- theres always to prove yourself to your teacher and having your teacher to support you to become a teacher as his apprentice.
- there is also the discovery, an elder can always choose to discover a new talent of their feild by rather incredible display of role playing their class.
- there is also those that choose to become a teacher, this could become the most popular choice since not everyone can be seen or heard, you must stand up and make yourself seen. I am thinking a series of test could be enough to prove their whorth.
I am sure there are 100s of other ways someone could become a teacher....
The question is how will it be managed the teachers.
As you know many will be crying at other teachers that this teacher or that teacher won't tach me or they barely teach they just give their arts and stuff... That in a way is abuse but it is enforcing it from the beginning that will either determine how the teaching system will become.
Personnaly i believe in freedom of the teacher to teach which ever he please, and it is only good role playing to have other question their methods and that this teacher could be ask to demonstrate his teaching prowess.... but teaching someone without teaching that must not happen.
So determining the concequences now instead of later woudl be important in my views, as teaching in UL always been important to me as it has been to many other great teachers.
So going back to my idea, perhaps there could be a system where a teacher could be challenged on his teaching ability, but once proven that his method is effective or that he does actualy teach and not only gives arts or plats away, then this teacher could be (immune) from such an acusation for a long time therefore protecting him from other challenges from other teachers for a bit. Of course there will be times when teachers will actualy hide his true nature and with enough proof he could then be retried, but then if fail to prove otherwise he would be free to go and he would not be touch for a long long time.
I am thinking a consul of teachers with elders of course part of it.
anyhow i am throwing ideas on what could be somethign fair and have opportunities to role play.
I think a good way select a teacher would be to monitor codexes written in the library or topics addressed on a message board within a house.
Those players who mark a strong preseance in their milieu, acheive recognition from active collegues within their community, and actively engage unknown/new players should be strong candidates for ordainment.
These players should have a strong sense for activity within the dream because as a teacher they will have great power/influence to weave intricate roleplays through those who require their aid.
A teacher who knows nothing about the happenings within the game may give the smack of false cause , disinterest or obligation. (IE: such as giving a mundayne task)
I think teaching is an opportunity create roleplays, wars, conflicts, beliefs; anything special that draws players to get involved with others in the game.
A good way to keep a handle on teachers would be to allow players to somehow observe (visually) how experienced a teacher has become at recieving requests for tasks, granting tasks, and rewarding completed tasks.
This gives an advantage to unexperienced players by making teachers compete for their students. Teaching should be a reward not a service.
Since teaching is such a powerful means of influencing behavior/roleplays within the dream, it could be considered even more benificial to the teacher than to the student.
The ability to create a scenario (through a task), that bulsters a teachers cause or ambition makes teaching an extremely coveted position.
The way I see it, one of the biggest problems in UL is that very few teachers actually know what it is they possess. The halo is the perfect tool to lead dreams, to make things happen in the game, to make people involve other dreamers and this way shape RPs. Because of that, we get a lot of the mundane tasts like theory and history gathering over and over, things that has been done many many times before and has lost their value.
I think the first line of teachers in Rec is the most important one, to set a standard so that future teachers will follow suit. The main ones who should be picked to become teachers in the first place are the characters that are outstanding in how they RP leading the community, those who are easily noticed in actively involving others in happenings in the dream. They are the ones most likely to know how to task students to do things to make activity in the game.
Once found, they can be approached by GMs and asked to undertake an apprenticeship under one of the elders. They'll of course instruct them in rules and guidelines etc, then ordained publically. Once they are picked to be the first batch of teachers, make them the ones responsible for mentoring the second line and you create a lineage of positive teaching for the game rather than busy work.
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The way I see it, one of the biggest problems in UL is that very few teachers actually know what it is they possess. The halo is the perfect tool to lead dreams, to make things happen in the game, to make people involve other dreamers and this way shape RPs. Because of that, we get a lot of the mundane tasts like theory and history gathering over and over, things that has been done many many times before and has lost their value.
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Alright here i agree so much that i had to add somethign more. Teachers can only so much, when they try to stimulate role playing by including other dreamers in a task wihtout their knowledge and hoping they will pick up and go with it. But out of experience in the past i have seen this to be bad, perhaps it was because of the low population of Underlight, and that perhaps the dreamers are a bit more like me myself and I than I thought. But from past experience i have seen dreamers come up to me saying that i am a bad teacher and getting yelled at because i included them for no reason... I tell you sometimes a teacher are glutons for punishment... That is expected, but being a teacher depends also on the dreamers around him/her.
When I think of a "roleplaying" task, I think of the arrangement between Mefis and Talon in "The Velvet Behind the Steel" or spying missions/espionage, reconnaissance, bounty hunting, training, diplomacy, gathering members to form a resistance or aspirant..
Basically I feel like most roleplays just follow from anything you are able to do within the game aside from small (important) details such as when you describe your motivation for the task in conversation.
First off, I want to say I agree with pretty much everything Gerr pointed out.
To have a halo ((Be a teacer)), is a great thing to posses in the game if used properly. Teacher charecters can have alot of influence in the dream and towards the whole community really, depending on their style of teaching, and we all know from experience in UL that every teacher has their own style. Some are better, some are not.
One of the biggest things that I personally disliked about gaining a halo in UL, was it took literally, -forever-. A year or more in most cases, which I think is just crazy. I strongly feel it should not take that long at all.
My suggestion is to pay attention to quests given out by players. Who likes to task, who much fun do they have doing it. Who are the ones helping new players, etc etc etc...
It should be pretty simple to see who is able to become a teacher by the way they do things, just dont make it take a year or longer to gain one.
Thing is Dragon, you cant make everyone a teacher or it loses its value. Also not all players are teacher material, for different reasons. If it is too easy, everyone will be teachers, and most likely bad ones. Fishing out the good teachers automatically makes the process longer.
Problem is like in UL, pretty much anyone's allowed to mentor under whichever teacher towards a halo, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will gain one. This is when people start bitching and crying about having mentored for years. It brings, in my opinion, much unneeded bitterness. I dont really see a solution off the bat myself, but be sure to bring suggestions folks.
I'd say thom that very much relies on who mentors, reason I liked it when only MTs could mentor, but when people started getting MT by default, that lsot its value as well.
I don't know i was mentored for what 1 month max before i was ordained?
Not saying that i got it easy, i am just saying that i did all that i needed to do to get things done. If those that yells out i been mentoring for a year and still no halo, then somethign your doing is definatly wrong...
Of course Dragon you were never teacher material but they still gave you the halo!!! (/laughs)
I agree to be careful on selecting teachers, but don't have too few because the good teachers will burn out...
Right now where to start this is the question.
ok I think one of the thing that annoys me most about teachers (not all) is the elitest and pompus attitude some tend to get a teachers "sole responsibility" is not to "stimulate role play in the dream" this is a pompus attitude that has done more to harm the way teaching is done in the dream. it's the damn players responsibility to stimulate roleplay in the dream, hence why it is a ROLE PLAYING GAME.
A role of a teacher, is to provide the knowledge and teach. I certainly dont expect you to just hand me an art. but you need to teach the player what benefits their new art will add to their role play, now gerroz you were quite good at this... on many occaision you gave me quests that made me think about my role as a seer and where it was taking me. Food for thought as they say.
Now the whole idea behind a game is to have fun,. now I think alot of teachers loose sight of that. expecially with such quests as writing god damn essay's and stuff, hell I have done more bloody writing for underlight than I did in my entire six years at high school.
OK now I never made teacher I got stuck before that ever happened, but the sole idea behind my tasks when writing was "how can I make this fun"
Often I think at times we get far to involved in the game that we forget it is a game. now I dont nessarly concider this a bad thing as it means your getting taken away with the rolepley. but when it is a case of killing the fun, then it is a bad thing.
Now personally I believe that everyone can be teachers, they just need to be shown the direction of course for some this will take longer that others. which is to be expected.
Now it was the whole Idea of direction that I offered up my previous idea of a way for the student to rate his teacher. as it enables Lyra to help determine what the players like, and also gives them a guide on what suggestions they can offer cirrent and up incomming teachers on the areas they need to improve.
I think that for you to truly be a teacher you need to be benefical to your students, now this is a hard thing to determine. so we need the help to see where we can improve.
I agree with you when you say that the start of teaching in Reclamation will determine it's course for the rest of the game, god knows how much of a stuff around changing the way the system worked in UL was, and in my opinion I still dont think we got what we the players needed out of it.
This is why we need to get it right from the get go. and pompus attitudes about t eaching are not gonna help. We all need to take part in this conversation that includes all you guys just viewing the posts. As if we let this go the wrong way right from the start the only thing it is gonna do is kill the game. I am sure that is the last thing we all want.
Yes, well Dragon was one of the first Teachers in the Dream, back when the current Guardians of DoL and HC were given those Halo's by Kelrith. Also note at the time there wasnt really any teaching standards and what not, so Dragon always taske dreamers to bring him Chacks :P.
Besides all that, I agree it shouldn't be easy to gain a halo, but I will stick to my guns when I say it should not take a year or more to get one.
--Dragon
Actually, it is not pompous to say that their (not sole, but) main function is to "stimulate roleplay in the dream". In an utopia everyone would be roleplaying, starting new RPs, participate in others' and so on and so on. But the truth is that, in the real world, people want rewards for what they do. Also when they know that if they do this, they will get something they want, besides just doing their thing. It makes them want it more and then they will do it right and make it even more fun since they have to earn their reward.
This is why teachers are the fosters of roleplays.
Now you mentioned the tasks Gerr gave Rikku. yes some of them were "food for thought" tasks. However the plats Rikku got from Gerr were all lower plats. When you're in the 40s, 50s, 60s....there's only so much more you can learn about the art or the things associated with it like theories and history etc. Besides, the higher plat are the ones you truly should 'do' something for, in my opinion. Not only think or theorize or what not, but do something that is recognized in the dream, or involves others. Simply put: higher plats = do something which inspires RPs.
If you haven't notices, every char in rec will be able to plat from 2 to 19. The reason I think is because the first few levels aren't that powerful and should come rather quickly, cause tasks to 10 and stuff can't really involve huge dream-affecting things. They're simply guidelines to using the arts, tips and tricks, theory and history....things most people with the art are capable of passing on without being a teacher.
It is once you get higher than that you need to start 'doing' things to show your worth, and through doing so, make things happen in the game. High level usually means the dreamer is experienced and able to start RPs on their own, to lead others and be creative. You have to get these higher levels from a teacher, and then that teacher needs to know how to create RPs in the dream, by using the student as a vessel of RP initiation.
I totally agree with Gerroz. I also think teachers should be reliable in the sense that they play regularly at a certain time, or just in general.
It is important that tasks don't become stale with time. Players need reliable teachers who can be expected to be around when a task is completed.
A teacher should be interested enough in their own task to check up on their tasks to see how they are comming along, this shows an interest from both arenas.
If teachers received some sort of teaching rank for the quality/efficiency in which a task is completed, this would encourage teachers to choose good students who are likely of completing an assesed task efficiently.
For example, an agreed time limit and a value with respect to the art assigned by the teacher which is what the teacher stands to loose/gain if the task is drawn out past the time limit.
The Art tasked for has an assesed quality that should represent the quality of a task. Tasking for a rare and powerful Art should involve the efforts of the teacher and student equally. By involving both players a relationship is formed and the affect of a task is a informed gamble/risk that requires good insight/assesment of a student on the part of the teacher.
Therefore when a teacher has something to loose or gain (teaching rank), teachers would not select players that are lazy or simply cannot coordinate themselves with a mission. This system works because it is left in the teachers choice if a task has been completed.. This is especially good because it will limit the amount of "High Value Arts" tasked at a specific time, as the teacher would have much (rank) to loose if they all failed.
Players might want to follow the development of a task to ensure that requirements have all been met. Perhaps players could be informed of the time limit on the task by the teacher or student for whatever art, then there could be roleplaying speculation and followups about the methods of a teacher. Teachers who teach in secret could be highly speculated and mistrusted.
It is significant that teachers follow a students progress because thier own intrest is bound to their task.
What you all also need to consider is when Reclamation goes live everything within the game is going to be GM based until it can become self sustaining. The game as a whole is going to need to be self sufficient as soon as possible. If that doesn't happen new people are going to loose interest, population will decrease, and the game will suffer.
As most of you can recall in the beginning of Underlight halo's weren't that hard, tasks were easy, and there were allot of players. YOU CANNOT base Reclamation on UL standards because it is a game unto itself. Underlight as it stands now is full of diehard players and elitists. If you imprint that on Rec from the very beginning it's going to cause problems from the go.
My opinion, get people ordained. Get the game self sustaining and then do the " You don't have what it takes to be a teacher cause ur tasks suxors." For a very long time 3rd sphere dreamers were gods in UL. if you try to restrict growth and advancement in Rec like that it'll fall and loose it's player base to the multitude of other MMO's released and being released.
Remember people, they want to keep their fans but draw alot more in. They can't do that by excluding people from the start.
Go through a normal process of getting someone ordained. Teach them the in's and out's, what is and is not acceptable, and then have them quest people under supervision. All this can be done within a months time if the teacher and student is dedicated. Make sure the mentor is around constantly, is reliable, and knows what they are doing. As far what what counts against them; if the person simply shows a complete lack of interest, then so be it. But if they are trying then they should be given a chance.
I've had two teaching caracters in UL and god knows I won't be one in Rec. The Cabalist or Dreamsmith paths are looking pretty good to me.
it didn't take my character 1 year to get his halo in UL, I think what it really requires is an understanding of just what the teacher position can do, and the responsibilities of being a sort of mini GM. I didn't totally "get it" at first, but now that I have, I am doing more with my character, and Gerr is totally right, the position should be used for furthering RPs.
Something that needs to be done is make it so people are not afraid to play. One of the problems with the current UL system is that people are so afraid that they are going to lose thier halo, that they don't take chances, and they don't put themselves out there. A clear cut series of rules for teaching, one set IC, and one OOC that are equally enforced, regardless of circumstance is what is called for.
http://www.reclamationgame.com/
http://underlight.com
http://www.reclamationgame.com/
http://underlight.com
I say screw the whole players governing players thing and let the GM's sort it out one at a time. If they're a GM, they can get past any squabbles they have with others (I would friggen HOPE to god that they can) to be fair and equal about it. Where-as, players themselvs are expected to have prejudice feelings/reactions.
Hey! For some reason I have a predilection for responding to posts well after they are deemed dead. Hooray for everything! Anyways...
One of the aspects that makes active player teaching is that number one, you can go to a teacher you like, there is no rule saying you can only go to one, or a select few teachers. That would be the case with any GM platform, and on top of that, it would be impossible for players to get tasks from one teacher, let alone another if they play on either side of peak hours. In-game teaching allows a few diffrent avenues for dreamers to task, and to teach. I, for example, have a unique style of teaching that I think draws a unique crowd, where as a GM after a point would almost be forced to go to a generic style that would allow for quantity to prevent the good ole "I'll give you a task tomorrow" technique which I totally disagree with as a UL player. I also think that by tasking from certain teachers you learn diffrent things. I know that a task from Munchkin is going to be diffrent from a task from Folko or Sweething or KaeR GeRRoZ. In addition to this, one can also become more familiar with what that teacher expects from you. I think we have all done a task and found out it wasn't what our teacher was expecting. You learn what the teacher wants explicitly and have a feel for what that teacher wants implicitily. I think that changing the current teaching system (perhaps with a slight increase in the NUMBER of teachers) would greatly damage part of the unique characteristics of underlight that we have all become accustomed to, and would probably take away from the whole ideas lyra incorperated for reclamation.
Rant Over!
Mike
I think teaching needs to become more streamlined. Having players control your advancement is cool but what about when there aren't any players around that can teach you? Will Lyra give Personality Points a booster? It seems kind of impossible to save up enough PPs for an art or a sphere at the amount they're given. Some people seem to be kind of stingy with theirs too, I give them out whenever I have them but some people completely ignore them. Maybe PPs could be given out in increments of 5 and when you granted one you got 1. It would be good encouragement to give out PPs.
-night
P.S. Getting things with PPs would obviously cost more