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What if a game had two types of servers, item mall and monthly sub?
Ihmotepp
Member Posts: 14,495
What if a game had both kinds of servers, item mall, and a monthly subscription fee?
The monthly sub server might be say 15-25 bucks a month, but with a guarantee that there would never be an item mall on those servers.
The other servers would be free, but with an item mall.
Which would you play, and why? Would this be a success, or monumental failure? In other words, would the publishers get both types of players in their game, subscription fans, and item mall fans, or simply piss off both types of players?
Another detail is, you COULD of course play both kinds of server, however, not transfer characters between server types.
Comments
I will never play an item mall game. I think they're insulting. I didn't play collectible card games and I'm not playing item mall games.
While I can see that this type of game would quickly fail... it'd be because of the heavy hand the item mall gets.
No game can be fairly written to appease both crowds. Games are designed around a pricing model, be it Item Mall or Subscription... to make one for both, you'd have to leave one camp out in the cold in some way... if not both camps.
HOWEVER:
it'd be a wonderful social experiment if you could show the actual "Money Made By Items" VS "Subscription Fees" over the course of say a year. A good 2 layer line graph to show the difference... including the "# of paying customers and how much they spent" for the Item Mall server.
I'd look at such a game as a "Test of Design Idiocy" overall... but more important is the Social Experiment going on in the background.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
Another item mall v Sub discussion, i'll throw in my two cents *plonik*
Item mall:- Some people will argue item mall is great for casual players, and most of them just contain fluff items. And one MMO that comes to mind is DOMO quite simple if you don't buy the xp + tokens your gonna be grinding for a VERY long time. Not that there is much else to do besides oh grind out tradeskill stuff while your asleep, but thats getting away from the point. Item malls do give an advantage be it a slight advantage or large in the form of a pet which is a whole other player basicly that attacks and grows with you (DOMO). Item malls have really soured the MMO experience, you really have to ask yourself if you buy from item malls to enhance your abilities, did i earn this, the answer is no, you may not have time to camp 'said' mob in the game because your casual, or you don't want to and you earn plenty of money in real life i'll spend it how I please!. Well I think you will find if you join a good guild or just make some good friends that may have more time then you they will camp it for you or get you a better item , these games are MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE, Item mall just makes for loners with too much RL cash to burn.
Sub: - Subscription is the best way and thats why EQ (pre Item mall and a few xpacs), WoW, Lotro have all done so well (as for lotro, it may not have the number of subs but they make enough to release new content for free so they must be doing ok). Now ok yes it sucks for casuals as I have become over the past year, I have to verse no lifers in PvP who have full rank the best armour, but at least I know at some point that person has taken the time to go out and get that gear to be that good, their social life might be that of an skunk but, yes they earned it. And so what do I do, I adapt do some research and perhapps find an item that could help me if i invest the time to get it. Or I quit my job, and suddenly had more time one day i could be as good or better but at least I have that option, where as an item mall could give an unfair advantage cause i don't have to earn it i can just buy what i need.
The other thing is you can easily over spend on an Item mall the exchange on these are usually crap, I know of one guy who spent 3 months worth of sub MMO fees on one hit on xp tokens and heal pots.
Remember kids Item Malls are for people like SoE. Screwing over gamers since 1999.
That's a valid position. However, the question in the OP is, would the fact that there are item mall servers in the game, keep you from playing the subscription based game?
Here's something missing from your equation. You could not just compare revenue vs revenue. in this case, you would also need to compare cost vs cost.
In a subscription based game, every player is contributing to maintaining the server. In an Item mall, the paying customers contribute to maintaining the servers, and some players never buy anything, HOWEVER, you still have to pay bandwidth to accomadate those players.
So on an item mall game, you have to also calculate how much extra bandwidth you paid for just to host the players that never buy an item.
For example, an item mall server where 40% of the players buy items is a very different profit margin than an item mall server where 90% or 5% of players buy items, because you must always pay bandwidth for 100% of the players.
Also, I think the code changes for each server type would be relatively easy. Ad 50% xp requirements to the item mall servers, ad potions taht let you double xp gain, and a few things like that, and you've easily turned yoru sub based game into an item mall based game.
The best model is without both. Guild Wars.
And Item Mall is ok, if the items don´t destroy the balance and you don`t have to buy them.
But i don`t like game items for real money. And i don´t like a monthly fee. It`s kind of restrictive because i have to pay, even if i don´t want to play. That sucks.
Playing: Guild Wars, Runes of Magic
Waiting: Guild Wars 2
Here's something missing from your equation. You could not just compare revenue vs revenue. in this case, you would also need to compare cost vs cost.
In a subscription based game, every player is contributing to maintaining the server. In an Item mall, the paying customers contribute to maintaining the servers, and some players never buy anything, HOWEVER, you still have to pay bandwidth to accomadate those players.
So on an item mall game, you have to also calculate how much extra bandwidth you paid for just to host the players that never buy an item.
For example, an item mall server where 40% of the players buy items is a very different profit margin than an item mall server where 90% or 5% of players buy items, because you must always pay bandwidth for 100% of the players.
Also, I think the code changes for each server type would be relatively easy. Ad 50% xp requirements to the item mall servers, ad potions taht let you double xp gain, and a few things like that, and you've easily turned yoru sub based game into an item mall based game.
Actually I included that in my equation... it was "money made", like "Profit margin"... that was a blanket statement in order to accomidate the hundreds of different costs of maintaining a server and moderated crowds.
The problem isn't adding simple XP pots and whatnot... it's the gameplay to facilitate that. You want those items to be useful, so you make it harder to level making those Items more worthwhile. I was part of a team once where the Higher Ups wanted Item Mall, but were forced to stick with Subscription because they were approving designs without reading them for the "Power Ups" that could be sold with them.
But those same items won't be for sale ont he subscription service, so you have to ease up the way of doing things. I've professionally worked on both, you have to account for the Item Mall in the overall Design in order to make it appealing to as many people as possible... that changes the overall design, and even world layout sometimes... item drops from mobs...
The idea is that when a player buys those items, they'll be more powerful then the player who does not. Whether it's because their level is higher, or because the item gives them extra damage or whatnot... you have to find a way to make that appealing to your potential customer, while not ostracizing the potential freeloader.
In Item Malls you need both: The Customer, and the Freeloader who the Customer can feel superior to.
There's a level of quality people expect from Subscription services that are either hard to find/use in an Item mall, if existant at all. I rarely see GMs in a F2P game... and I never recall that great of documentation in a F2P game that I've ever tried on reccomendation. But I can still go to my closet and get out the manuals for everything from Earth and Beyond to Tabula Rasa... and those games closed down.
Perhaps it's what we've come to expect, but that's the reality of it.
When I look at F2P games, I know that the support will be minimal, at best. If there's so much money in it, then you'd be reading about content patches regularly, like you read about with Subscription services. Even games people claim failed (AoC, PotBS, TR) get content updates regularly, TR got one mere weeks before closing.
it's highly likely the profit margin is from removing any semblence of a support team from the background after release... but since I've never seen F2P games post their earnings reports on the title, and P2P games post their subscription numbers, nobody can get an ACTUAL bearing on the reality of the situation... it's very much speculation.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
I dont mind item malls if all they sell is "fluff items" Its when games with item malls start limiting "needed" ingame items/resources and then selling those things in the mall that i dont like.
Take Runes of Magic for example. You accumulate a lot of loot in this game of various uses, yet they limit you to only 2 inventory tabs(which is way to few leaving you to delete or run back to a bank merchant every 15mins) and then they offer 3 or 4 additional inventory tabs for "Rent" though their item mall. I hate this type of thing.
So, I would rather have a subscription based setup with generous amenities rather than a gimped f2P where you have to rent basic things like inventory space.
Well, Puzzle Pirates already has this type of setup. The Blue Oceans (servers) are paid and the Green are Dubloon oceans. You buy dubloons with real money and use them for various things in the game. PP has been pretty successful with this model, too. I played on both oceans. I got a veteren's discount on a year and bought it all at once and played with sub, but I lost my job near the end and I couldn't renew, so I just played on the dub ocean every now and then. Because of my play style and how they structure the things you buy (Things expire after X logins vs X consecutive days, for example), I was able to play at about the same level on each ocean.
So, to sum it up. If done well, I would definately play agame with both an item mall and sub.
As the previous poster said, Puzzle Pirates kind of does this.
If a company did this, they would be able to police buying gold from the gold farmers better, as if someone did that, the penalty could be the involuntary permanent transfer to an item mall server, rather than having to either ignore it or ban the account and eat the chargeback fees.
Here's something missing from your equation. You could not just compare revenue vs revenue. in this case, you would also need to compare cost vs cost.
In a subscription based game, every player is contributing to maintaining the server. In an Item mall, the paying customers contribute to maintaining the servers, and some players never buy anything, HOWEVER, you still have to pay bandwidth to accomadate those players.
So on an item mall game, you have to also calculate how much extra bandwidth you paid for just to host the players that never buy an item.
For example, an item mall server where 40% of the players buy items is a very different profit margin than an item mall server where 90% or 5% of players buy items, because you must always pay bandwidth for 100% of the players.
Also, I think the code changes for each server type would be relatively easy. Ad 50% xp requirements to the item mall servers, ad potions taht let you double xp gain, and a few things like that, and you've easily turned yoru sub based game into an item mall based game.
Actually I included that in my equation... it was "money made", like "Profit margin"... that was a blanket statement in order to accomidate the hundreds of different costs of maintaining a server and moderated crowds.
The problem isn't adding simple XP pots and whatnot... it's the gameplay to facilitate that. You want those items to be useful, so you make it harder to level making those Items more worthwhile. I was part of a team once where the Higher Ups wanted Item Mall, but were forced to stick with Subscription because they were approving designs without reading them for the "Power Ups" that could be sold with them.
But those same items won't be for sale ont he subscription service, so you have to ease up the way of doing things. I've professionally worked on both, you have to account for the Item Mall in the overall Design in order to make it appealing to as many people as possible... that changes the overall design, and even world layout sometimes... item drops from mobs...
The idea is that when a player buys those items, they'll be more powerful then the player who does not. Whether it's because their level is higher, or because the item gives them extra damage or whatnot... you have to find a way to make that appealing to your potential customer, while not ostracizing the potential freeloader.
In Item Malls you need both: The Customer, and the Freeloader who the Customer can feel superior to.
There's a level of quality people expect from Subscription services that are either hard to find/use in an Item mall, if existant at all. I rarely see GMs in a F2P game... and I never recall that great of documentation in a F2P game that I've ever tried on reccomendation. But I can still go to my closet and get out the manuals for everything from Earth and Beyond to Tabula Rasa... and those games closed down.
Perhaps it's what we've come to expect, but that's the reality of it.
When I look at F2P games, I know that the support will be minimal, at best. If there's so much money in it, then you'd be reading about content patches regularly, like you read about with Subscription services. Even games people claim failed (AoC, PotBS, TR) get content updates regularly, TR got one mere weeks before closing.
it's highly likely the profit margin is from removing any semblence of a support team from the background after release... but since I've never seen F2P games post their earnings reports on the title, and P2P games post their subscription numbers, nobody can get an ACTUAL bearing on the reality of the situation... it's very much speculation.
Apparently you can design for both, since a couple of posters have mentioned that Puzzle Pirates does exactly that. I wasn't aware of that, so it's interesting to find out that it does work.
It should be noted that, while the subscription servers for Puzzle Pirates are the traditional model, the doubloon servers are not a typical item mall. In order to do a lot of things on the doubloon servers, you have to spend doubloons. The only way that doubloons are generated is by buying them from the company for real-life money, which is essentially an "item mall". Nothing else is sold in the item mall, but doubloons are bought and sold in-game for PoE, the in-game currency. The upshot is that one player can essentially pay the subscription of another, and in return, the other player pays the first player with in-game PoE.
You'd never find me on the "item mall server".
If the game was any good that is.
As for the sentiment of "Item mall being okay if its just fluff" that many "I dun care" posters show... How would you(them) like it if the "fluff" was the cool and better PvP weapons, or PvE weapons? Fluff means that the RP playerbase pays for the PvP and PVE playerbase. It wouldnt be okay for you(them) to pay the game for the RP'ers would it? Or any of the other playerbases. Next time you play a "fluff itemmall game", give the RP'ers a heartfelt thank you, because without them, the game wouldnt be running...Or you had to pay for your PvP or PvE goodstuff.
so like Entropia?
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
I think the problem is that there would be a disheartening lure to the item mall. If you played the subscription models, and after months of trying over and over and over to obtain the sword of eternal asswhoop, it would be difficult not to break down and roll a toon on the other server where you could just buy it. And then if you did that long enough, you'd feel like you were throwing your money away for content that no longer had incentive and the challenge had been sapped.
Anyway, hence, you'd have very low retainability.
But add a third line to that Graph, for players who switched back and forth between both types of servers. that'd be interesting too.
I think the problem is that there would be a disheartening lure to the item mall. If you played the subscription models, and after months of trying over and over and over to obtain the sword of eternal asswhoop, it would be difficult not to break down and roll a toon on the other server where you could just buy it. And then if you did that long enough, you'd feel like you were throwing your money away for content that no longer had incentive and the challenge had been sapped.
Anyway, hence, you'd have very low retainability.
But add a third line to that Graph, for players who switched back and forth between both types of servers. that'd be interesting too.
Nice add to the graph... but I think you just re-enforced my point:
Something like this would be a wonderful social experiment.
...but I don't believe it'd be much, if anything, more then that...
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
I think the problem is that there would be a disheartening lure to the item mall. If you played the subscription models, and after months of trying over and over and over to obtain the sword of eternal asswhoop, it would be difficult not to break down and roll a toon on the other server where you could just buy it. And then if you did that long enough, you'd feel like you were throwing your money away for content that no longer had incentive and the challenge had been sapped.
Anyway, hence, you'd have very low retainability.
But add a third line to that Graph, for players who switched back and forth between both types of servers. that'd be interesting too.
Nice add to the graph... but I think you just re-enforced my point:
Something like this would be a wonderful social experiment.
...but I don't believe it'd be much, if anything, more then that...
Oh, I was trying to reinforce your point. I agree.
I haven't played Entropia, but my understanding is that it's much, much harder there to play without paying real-life money.
In Puzzle Pirates, if you want to play without paying any money, then paying the doubloon cost along with the PoE cost of everything might mean that everything on net costs you twice as much as normal. That's still quite manageable considering that what you're buying is mostly fluff gear, anyway.