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Dungeons and Dragons, done right (as an MMORPG)
Ihmotepp
Member Posts: 14,495
I'd like to see Dungeons and Dragons done right, an actual MMORPG, not DDO the semi massive game that's more like an online lobby game, and I also don't like the scaling content, do the dungeon 3 times on easy, medium, and hard.
D&D should be an unbalanced class based game. There's tanks, nukes, and healers, in D&D that's fighters, clerics and magic users. It's unbalanced, because it's designed for PvE, not PvP, so this will be a PvE game.
There would be all the classic DD monsters, kobolds, trolls, orcs, goblins, dragons, etc.
Here's how I would handle PvP. Good characters cannot attack each other, or anyone else unprovoked, without taking an alignment hit. If you lose enough alignment, you could lose your abilities, or turn evil. For example a Paladin that goes evil or neutral could lose all his or her Paladin abilities.
Evil characters can attack anyone, other evil characters or good or neutral players. But, if they have the opportunity to attack someone and never use it, eventually they will turn good, and possibly lose thier abilities. For example an Assassin that never tries to attack another player when given the opportunity, can turn good and lose the ability to use poison, etc.
So, it's sort of FFA combat, but with serious consequences. You group with a Paladin, and he COULD attack you. But, if he does, he risks losing hsi Paladin abilities, so it's not likely he will attack you. However, if you group with an Assassin, he needs to attack someone, or he will lose his Assassin abilities eventually, so it's a good chance he WILL attack you.
Also, players can be evil, neutral or good, like a Magic User can be good or evil. Players can buy detect alignment spells to see if another player is good or evil.
The game is quest based, plus random encounters. There are not static mobs waiting for you to go find the spawn points, but as you travel to your quest objectives, there are percent chances of your party encountering random monsters.
There are loot tables, and loot drops. There is an explanation of why you get a sword from killing a wolf. For example, after you kill the wolf pack, you get this message "After killing the wolf pack, you notice delapadated wagon. It looks like the wagon was attacked by hte wolvels. Inside the wagon you find: list of treasure". So, yes, you get a sword after killing wolves, but it doesn't drop out of the wolves butts.
Just like DDO, there are loot chests. Each player gets a pull from the loot chest, geared for your class and level. All items are tradeable, no bind on pick up items. Gear is always tradeable, but it's destructable as well. Your sword will break and need to be repaired, and eventually replaced. Magic spells will wear off, etc.
Here's the biggest one: Content is added in modules. Not zones.
For example, in EQ or DAoC, even WoW, you get an expansion. This adds new zones, and a tiny bit of content for low levles, but mostly content for high levels, and sometimes ups the levels and gear.
Instead of this, content expansions add content for some, or all levels, but never expand the level range, or gear.
So, you might get a content expansion that adds content for levels 1-5, not that takes the levels from level 20 and ads 5 more to level 25. If you want to play this new content, you roll a new character.
Once you level one character to 20, you may start a character at any level you wish, even max level. So, if new content comes out for levels 5-10, and you want to play some of the content geared towards level 7 because you heard the quests are fun, you may instantly roll a level 7 character.
Comments
A lot of what is said here I can only nod my head to, although the last part, with the being able to create a character of any level? I know a lot of people would level one char to lvl 20, then just create a ton of (evil) lvl 20ies and go around ganking people.
D&D done right is the P&P version, 'nuff said.
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I understand what you are going for here but I think the alignment system loses any real meaning if it is only relegated to combat interaction.
If there were some amazing world created with true npc interaction, prisons, active deities, or actual consequences for evil/good actions then perhaps it would hold some meaning.
I think perhaps a DDO vision with less instancing, more storyline, and a much larger world would do well. Greyhawk might be a better world choice for example. Of course the Spelljammer series was interesting. That is the joy of pen and paper though...it is rooted in real interplay between people but anything, any world, any vision is still possible. There is simply an overlay of 'rules' that provide structure.
DDO still has amazing combat and a wide variety of spells. Shield blocking, arrow dodging, traps, etc. You are correct that it could be so much more
Good idea, I wish they made an AD&D game using the Forgotten Realms as a setting. Keep it close to the source and pve. Would be fantastic. There is so much source material out there begging to be converted and would give the pnp stuff a shot in the arm.
Yeah, Forgotten Realms would be mint. Even have factions like Underdark races (Drow, Mindflayer, etc) vs. the traditoinal allies of Human, Dwarf, Elf, Gnome and Halfling.
Yes! that would totally get my subs
As a PvE game, non-balance on the classes would be great. It would encourage more grouping, guilds would actually serve a purpose.
But as for PvP, you would simply get, everybody creating an 'evil' character and all finding that perfect template to win PvP. Because the one flaw in your idea is, that 'good' characters couldn't attack anybody without risking loosing their abilities. Unless somebody else gets the first shot in...and usually in PvP, that first good hit can determin the outcome of the battle. So who would bother playing a good character.
And grouping with the threat of one of your group attacking you is no good either. What is to stop certain players from just hanging back during the battle, then when everybody is weak/injured, taking out the entire group? How would this encourage grouping?
Certain classes would be forgotten while everybody just goes for that perfect PvP/PvE character.
D & D done right would not be an MMO.
It would allow for people to play DMs and create content and scenarios and play DMs. Games would be small groups of people who all play together at the same time.
Basically Neverwinter nights.
Once you move away from having DMs you move aways from D&D done right.
Except for the setting and pvp rules you just described CoH.
Meaning it should be possible for this to happen eventually. Including CoHs new player made content being used as a player DM thing.
Ok, it was just off the top of my head, so the design in the OP has flaws, I admit. The big thing is the alignnment, and the PvP.
As for the alignment, you could basically copy Knights of the Old Republic, where you got dark side and light side points, or something liek that in the quests, pretty much what TOR is going to do when it releases.
The idea of DnD done right, is of couse, DnD done right AS an MMO. Of course an MMO won't be exactly like DnD. I know there is NWN, but I'm not talking about trying to copy the Paper n Pencil game online, I'm talking about doing a good MMO with the DnD world and rules.
I also agree, taht the PvP needs work to stop ganking. I'm tempted to say, just no PvP, except for an RVR sort of set up. That's probably the way to go.
Then you apply the rules from the original post, only in the RvR zones.
One thing I didn't add, although I often advocate for group games, I would make this game full of solo content, so teh solo types would be happy. The solo content would be dungeons just for solo players. There would be enough of these to level up to 20, but most of the content would be for groups.
just go play neverwinter nights if you want the MMO experience. I've played lots of servers on the first NWN that played just like an MMO. and if you want prisons and active deities, go play on the Roleplaying servers, always active DMs on.
I have played NWN, both 1 and 2. It's a very good game, especially NWN 1, but it's definitely NOT an MMORPG.
Yea...I always dreamed that Bioware (than secret MMO) would infact be Forgotten Realms Online.
There is so much of source material there you could pave streets of a small town with it...
And D&D 4th ED is basically made for conversion to MMO...
I have played NWN, both 1 and 2. It's a very good game, especially NWN 1, but it's definitely NOT an MMORPG.
i should of worded this better, its not truly an MMO, but with time and enough people working on it, you can get it to be LIKE an MMO, not an MMO itself. I played on a server called neversummer and it worked like a MMO, not a true MMO like EQ2, WoW or Lotro, but near to the experience, you just have to look for the right server. Some of the servers on their have a link to their site, and looking that up helps tell you what its about. There are to many servers on there that are not complete or are made terribly.
fully agree
gadgets.boingboing.net/2008/02/25/exclusive-gallery-du.html
and they plan to have monthly charges like a MMO too
EQ2 fan sites
OP, the SECOND you add PVP you do not have a D&D game or a good MMO. First I ran a lot of AD&D campaigns back in the day, never once was there PVP, it does NOT exist in AD&D outside some duels. So don't ask for AD&D when all you really want is a gank fest with swords.
Secondly OP, why would anyone play a class that isn't balanced? You would have 90% of your sever playing the most powerful "solo" class such as a tank or assassin, and 10% playing the rest. How would you make groups without balancing the classes to an extent? You wouldn't.
Loot drops, who cares how a wolf got the swords? You idea would just mean a bit more random text with every loot drop, that after the first few times no one would read.
Basically your ideas are not well thought out and would not work. MMOs technology and the gaming community could not handle AD&D. If you want AD&D gather some friends and run some games or use online tools such as those in NWN2.
Several problems with this design.
First, D&D is about small group (party) interaction. I don't see why an online matching game is a problem. D&D is never massive. We do not need 500 people camping in the same dungeon. Whatever DDO is doing in this regard suffice.
Secondly, allowing players to make char of any level is just bad. You essentially take away the char progression part of the game, which is why a lot of people play RPG in the first place.
Why is there a problem that content is added at the "end" of the game? Just being different for the sake of being different wont make a game more fun.
I have thought this myself. I think D&D as an MMO has to get rid of the level 20 cap and strict adherance to the table top rules system though. I know, everyone is ready to flay me for daring to say that. Many D&D fans would never play a game like that.
But face it, the D&d ruleset works fine for table top games with yoru friends but it doesn't translate well to a MMORPG. Obviously they should stick to as much of the rules as they can, but some of them would have to be bent if not outright broken and a new model put in place. A company that did this would have to bite the bullet and face the outrage. However I think the fantastic D&D setting, character classes, and monsters would more than make up for this. Plenty of non D&D fans would play the game and if the D&D fans kept an open mind I think many would be converted as long as it is done right.
The Forgotten realms is a great setting and it is such a shame that someone hasn't managed to bring this world to life in a MMO.
Now I am going to hide from the outrage and ridicule this suggestion is sure to bring.
In AD&D at level 20 you are almost a god. Why do you need to be more powerful than that with more levels? You want to BE a God? Then what? More Ultimate than God? Then what? I don't get it. I can kill Ancient Red dragons, and travel the planes, but that's not enough. What you want to be able to eat Worlds? How would that work in an MMORPG? And then you can eat Universes?
No you misunderstand. I mean they need to scale a new leveling system where the level 50 D&D MMORPG is equivalant to the level 20 D&D RPG. I really don't know how to say this except what I am talking about is throwing out the entire D&D ruleset and making a new one that fits with what most people expect out of a MMORPG.
For example in D&D a wizard knows x number of spells a day. Let's say he can cast fireball 3 times a day, well in a traditional MMO thats boring as ****. In other MMO's you usually cast spells throughout the entire combat. They would need to change the game to be like that, because if I was a wizard I would be bored as hell if I could only cast spells 10 times total in a dungeon.
Basically what I am syaing is make a WoW clone and put it in the Forgotten realms setting. That would be 10x better than DDO. Now if they could do it wiht rule smore like D&D and less like WoW it would be 20X better. But if they made the rules exactly like D&d...well you get DDO.
An MMORPG with strict D&D rules is NOT DDO. I've been playing D&D since AD&D, and DDO isn't D&D+MMORPG.
I would write up a view on converting D&D to an online game.. But it's hard. I think I'll do so when I have time. (:
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to a certain extent I agree with this.
Having said that, I don't have any problem with a computerized dungeon master. But I always thought that Turbine should have added the ability for players to create their own modules and that any items and levels you gained in that particular module only held to that module.
This way you couldn't have someone making an easy module with a lot of high level equipment that was essentially a power leveler.
To that end, there is nothing wrong with DDO and its changes to the rule set. What players need to remember is that this is one person/organization's version of a dungeons and dragons game.
And I distinctly remember reading Gary Gygax saying that the rules were just guidelines. If you didn't like them change them, if you didn't like them add to them, if you didn't like them throw them out and make your own.
The problem here is that we have some players who fall under the bean counter realm of playing in that the rules are the rules.
Not so.
I applaud turbine for implementing the game in this way as it is in my mind supposed to be about small groups going on adventures.
What I don't like is how they eventually implemented it as many of the dungeons don't seem to have a lot of personality with all the cut and paste doors and levers and corridors.
Also, and others do share this thought, the world is not really what they were looking for. Again, this is one person's campaign. Who is to say if you were to start a D&D pen and paper game that you wouldn't be in a similar world, or one where more science was used or even less magic? I also remember in one of the books where it mentions that the Dungeon Master and creator can decide to make magic extremely rare or very common.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Right. And this is why the thing Turbine gave us is about as close to PnP D&D as we're ever gonna see. Conversion to an MMORPG requires throwing out the entire ruleset. At that point you might as well call your game something else.
Right. And this is why the thing Turbine gave us is about as close to PnP D&D as we're ever gonna see. Conversion to an MMORPG requires throwing out the entire ruleset. At that point you might as well call your game something else.
I agree.
I think what ends up happening is that players want a regular ol' mmo but with a D&D logo on it and things named after D&D places and items. Same with the lord of the rings. Many players never wanted to play in the world of middle earth, with all that implied but wanted generic fantasy game number 856 with a Lord of the Rings wrapper neatly tied around it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I have the understanding that Gary Gygax himself was there during the development of D&DO, so doing it "right" would be like slapping the co-maker of D&D in the face. If you want to play a strict AD&D Forgotten Realms online multiplayer game then you should play Baldur's Gate 1&2 online. Because a D&D mmo just isnt practical, D&D was meant for roleplayers to have fun. Basically you can play pretend like your in the game in.. well pretty much any game.
Right. And this is why the thing Turbine gave us is about as close to PnP D&D as we're ever gonna see. Conversion to an MMORPG requires throwing out the entire ruleset. At that point you might as well call your game something else.
I agree.
I think what ends up happening is that players want a regular ol' mmo but with a D&D logo on it and things named after D&D places and items. Same with the lord of the rings. Many players never wanted to play in the world of middle earth, with all that implied but wanted generic fantasy game number 856 with a Lord of the Rings wrapper neatly tied around it.
The nomenclature isn't important, but I"m willing to call it a D&D inspired MMORPG done right. I agree, we have to change some things for the MMORPG realm, but I don't know how much.
It was mentioned that magic users only get 10 spells a day at certain levels, and things like that, while the MMORPG player is used to shooting off unlimited spells for hours at a time.
Depends on what you call a day. You might be able to work something out that would keep the flavor of D&D, but work in the MMORPG 24/7 online environment.
There was a lot more story in D&D and a lot less combat. Most of the game was roleplaying and figuring out who to kill, where, and when, and once you did that took a very long time with all the dice rolling talking in between, and so forth. You didn't play D&D and kill 1,200 goblins in a single session.
I agree with the poster that siad he'd settle for a WoW clone set in the Forgotten realms. That would be a start. Add soem D&D rules and it would be an improvement.
For those that continue to suggest NWN, yes, I played them, 1 and 2. They were fun. If they were sufficient I wouldn't have made this post.