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Our Frustration With This Industry is Completely Reasonable: From Community Guilds to Community Cat
declaredemer
Member Posts: 2,698
INTRO
The essence of the creative process requires free-thinking and risk-taking. Innovation will not, and cannot, emerge from a business meeting or a conference. It is not linear, and it knows no boundaries. Innovation as they relate to immersion issues is a cause for concern because of the attention developers give to raiding and now cash shops.
From Creative Thinking to Boardroom and Back to Creative Thinking
If you have a business meeting on how to innovate, and in turn, generate more revenue in the MMORPG industry, the ideas are fairly predicatable: charge higher fees, charge fees indirectly, introduce a cash shop. The idea will not be to draw individuals to the game because of the game's features. Instead, the idea is to get more money out of the individuals currently subscribed, which is not only bad for this industry but bad for business. Cash flow should not be underestimated, and neither should brand loyalty. It is what we call in business an "intangible." It could be very powerful, and you cannot kick it. Yet a company's intangibles can, and often are, more powerful and valuable than its tangible assets.
People will be drawn to the MMORPG not because of a cash shop but because of the game's features, user-friendliness, depth, customer service, and so on and so forth. Blizzard's customer, e.g., is a powerful intangible to sell in terms of fantasy items.
Thinking creatively about MMORPGs needs to leave the boardroom and return to the mind, hearts, and souls of developers. These people want to build, create, and design. Forcing them to design content around cash shops is cruel and unworkable.
Gamers, Looking to the Past, But Not Forward
Repeatedly, especially recently, I have been reading members of the community talk about Everquest, UO, and others. People want to "return" to the sense of three Cs:
- Community
- Challenge
- Creativity
The advantage of the early games is how creative they were for being first. Today, however, developers need to be creative in terms of being last. Innovate on features that work and develop entirely new concepts of MMORPG gaming. Instead, we got cash shops.
Challenge is lacking in MMORPGs, but challenge was somewhat defined in terms of time. Everything dies but time. People do not have time to be challenged by time. Instead, people want innovative, new challenges. Not a cash shop challenge. Challenging people's wallets to play a game is a bad move.
Community is a challenge. The increased accessibility of the internet has brought in new masses to this market. I remember, my gosh, when I was so young and my dad was on MSNBC "explaining" what the internet is. Not kidding. An MMORPG might consider being the "big tent" game and try to several disparate community groups without undermining one against the other. Soloers, groupers, raiders, guilders, PvPers, and so forth. A total MMORPG experience. The risk is satisfying none. It is an area to be addressed.
CONCLUSION
Let's return to the Cs -Challenge, Community, and Creativity- but in an innovative way.
Let's not discard the past, but learn from it... and build upon it.
Let's take this industry to the next, and new, level using creative ideas and not business ideas. Business has a role (no doubt), but its effect on the construction of content should be tempered and limited.
Comments
A. It's not easy making a game, why don't you try. They aren't just making any game they want, they have to make a game that sells. And that sells more than it costs. So there is a limit to what they can do, there is just no way around that. MMO gamers need to except that.
B. Money talks - the people have spoken with their wallets - WoW is what they want, WoW is what they will get. Being in the minority and not liking the mainstream can suck, but that's life. Really good TVs shows don't last, dumb ones do. People cried and cried and cried to bring by great shows like firefly, but companies have to make things for the majority, and the majority is dumb as a box of rocks.
C. There are a few good gaming companies out there, innovating - Blizzard, BioWare, Rockstar, valve just to name a few. You just have to give it time.
D. Appreciate what is there. If you don't like gaming, don't game. Some people like the games that are out there and have a blast with them, I love CoV still having a great time with it. If I didn't like it I would play.
You PROVE my point; this is twice in the same day my point is better illustrated by contrarian views than my own.
The truth is that they cannot, and will not, produce a game that sells by focusing on Raiding, PvP, WoW-copied (EQ-copied) features.
It is literally THAT simple.
Then what are they supposed to concentrate on? Uncle Owen play?
I am getting the feeling you talk to yourself.
Rather than holding that conversation in your head, could you at least jot it on the forum so the rest of us can keep up with your "Einstein" moments.
Thanks
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
You get the feeling I talk to myself, but I get the feeling you talk AT (and not WITH) me.
You want to "concentrate" on something. You look at Orange Juice, see the word, and you "concentrate."
I want developers to create - not concentrate. To think. You need less concentration and more creation.
Edit: Thanks.
Well, no offense, but the OP made it pretty clear what the new MMO's need to try to do...and that is be creative (break away from the WoW mold), immerse the community more (stop creating MMO for the single player gamers, just like the previous poster said, you don't like online games with other people that take awhile to advance? don't play them), and offer new challenges (we have the endgame PvP and raiding which are fine in their own right, but MMO's need to stimulate these areas more or create some new, maybe less combat related challenges.
Good points OP.
The OP summarises it well. They are the three things which are essential for a good MMO, yet one of the three have ALWAYS been overlooked in games out in the past year or so. If not, how come the games with the largest fanbases, GW and WoW, came out 4 years ago?
As for the "try to make one yourself" comment, that is a cheap retort. The sad thing is, companies like Funcom and SOE can hand millions to people who ARE supposed pros in the field, who make their living designing games, yet come out with games that fall short with regularity. If the average poster on this site(a majority, based on the threads and posts on this site), who is an avid player, can see what is wrong with these games, well, aren't they the market these companies need to buy their games? It's as if the car companies were coming out with a bunch of Yugos, and you are saying, "Hey! Making a car is hard! You don't like that POS? Try building one yourself!"
You PROVE my point; this is twice in the same day my point is better illustrated by contrarian views than my own.
The truth is that they cannot, and will not, produce a game that sells by focusing on Raiding, PvP, WoW-copied (EQ-copied) features.
It is literally THAT simple.
Actually, they do get profit from games that focus on Raiding and PvP thanks to the cash shop you mentioned. They don't need to sell boxes and they can even let everyone who wants to play do it for free. There are no subscription numbers, nor do they need subs. MMOs with graphics and gameplay like Diablo 2 (roughly 10 years old) have hundreds of players and they do well against everything people know to be true.
I'm with Green's idea of you trying to make your own game.
Make games you want to play.
http://www.youtube.com/user/RavikAztar
The OP is correct.
People telling him to make his own game are not too far off the mark though. The OP would make an outstanding creative director I bet ya.
The problem is no one is able to be creative these days. They put all the work into making a game, yet they are so terified of their product. The solution? Look at WoW! So what gets produced? WoWhammer, WoW Trek Online WoW Wars: TOR WoWGate Evoloution ect.
There are new technologies available that would make creative and ouside the box thinking appropriate. Innovation is not something that cannot be done, or is unreasonable to ask for. Yes, making a game is hard work. So is making a car. I bet when the Model T came out, people said, "LULZ FAIL!..someone needs to make better cars." What do you drive now? innovation needs to work beyond the paper stage.
People's frustration is based on claims of innovation that aren't there, and folks can't justify paying a monthly sub to a single player game. Nothing wrong with raids or PVP... just make it worth while and reincorporate the team aspect to MMOS, and hire creative directors that can creatively direct. A game that attracts both casual PVE and hardcore PVP type players is possible. I think tht's all the OP is asking for here.
Don't blame the developers or the investors, but all the people that play WoW.
Look at how many reality shows started after survivor was a hit. It's what the people want. (and I acutely like top chef).
Look at all the first person shooters made after Doom and Quake. And most of those are just the same, but it's what people want.
What is simply being pointed out is that like Survivor and Doom, there is a necessity to change the formula and make something new (although copy a new concept might be a better definition as Survivor nor Doom were original concepts, just popularized their perspective genres, but I understand your point). You are missing their viewpoint however, which is, while they perfectly understood that a successful product will be copied, there comes a time for a fresh new commodity to be created, and that time is quickly approaching, many would even say it has long since passed.
This is about what people want, but as your own examples show, if they consistently wanted the same tired tripe, Survivor and Doom (or their predessecors) would never have been accepted much less desired, meaning the subsequent nascency of the Reality and FPS genres would never have transpired. This has to do with the point that something new will be "what the people want", and will kill off or greatly damage the current and popular line/style of products today.
Arguing that what is out and popular now is what people want while stating that anything creative and innovative is not is asinine, as it is merely a cyclic process.
As for whom is to blame, only the Investors and Developers truly can be; they fund and develop all the products, and while it might be argued that they must bow to demand, the idea that it isn't in their best interest to evolve and innovate is absolutely niave.
Customers don't push innovation, internal or external competition does. Something which you will witness soon as lazy, uncreative, safe route taking producers are absolutely decimated by a new breed of ingeniusly designed games and IP's.
Circa 2013
- Burying Threads Since 1979 -
LOL .. there are so many things wrong about this pic.
First, implementation >>> innovation. Put 3 smart people in a room for an afternoon and you have enough innovative ideas for the next 10 years. Ideas are cheap.
Managing software development, art, schedules, programming bugs, ... that is hard. Games are no longer about just ideas anymore. It is about implementaiton and polish.
And don't place too much emphasis on challenge and creativity either. People want EASY and FUN games. There is no reason to play a very difficult game. Remember MMOs are about the ILLUSION of achievement, not true achievement. And creativity is over rated. Just look at all the sequels and similar themed FPS that sells.
Take Call of Duty 2,3,4, 5. Except modern war, they are essentially the same thing but every installation is FUN.
We had this conversation to some extent in my guilds forum in February. This was my take on it so I am copying and pasting what I said. It relates well to this topic:
The sad thing BD is that it just won't happen. MMO gaming is officially dead man. WOW is a phenomenon and thus has done what no other game in the history of gaming has ever done; single player or multi-player, WOW has out sold everything. In accordance with its (WOW) success, every developer would rather try to copy the machine (WOW) to be safe (even though we see the failings in games like WAR) than to be aggressively unique and go back to what developing was all about in the first place.
Furthermore, with this economy and the death of several developers as of the last few years, people simply do not want to take risks. Risks do not create gains and the ultimate goal of any developer is to create cash flow. We cannot blame them for this in all honesty as they are trying to function like any other corporate entity.
Couple these issues with an entirely new MMO/RPG Gamer persona and we see why WOW is so popular. The days of sandbox are over I am afraid and all these new age gamers want is to be spoon fed and led by their fucking noses through levels and everything else that can give them instant gratification. Hell, we see this shit in RPG's now and its becoming the trickle down effect. The last truly epic RPG in my opinion was Baldurs Gate and Vampire Masquerade. I an having a blast with Drakensang which is new and refreshing and feels like old school to some extent again, but I don't have that epic feeling with the game yet.
I don't know folks, to me the last five years have been the pinnacle to the death of MMO gaming and I personally don't see the problem getting any better. The only thing that will draw in WOW's numbers is Blizzard's next MMO. The crazy thing is that I doubt it will even topple the phenomenon of WOW, but suppose it did. Then it becomes a vicious fucking circle. I love many of Blizzard's games and I think they are one of the best developers out there. Hell, Starcraft and Diablo alone are classic 5 star games in my book.
I am rambling on now so I'll end my silly diatribe. MMO's are dead my friends and I don't think this is going to change. The new Star Wars won't even fix although I wait in anticipation for it, I feel it will be just as dumb ed and watered down as the rest of the garbage out here.
In the end it is of utmost essence for gamers to understand the logistics of business and corporate entity. I play nothing now as I am sick of the watered down garbage we are consistently fed. However, I also understand the flow of the industry in regard to business. These games require massive amounts of funding, time, over-head, schedules, yadda, yadda, yadda... A corporations main goal is to produce profit pure and simple. You cannot blame a company funding a MMO project with millions of dollars wanting a return on their investment; this is logical business mechanics.
I am as fed up with the older majority. I have been grinding MMO's since their inception and have played MUDS on BBS boards long before the internet was conceived. My point on this is that in the early days there was a passion to create and a market to do so. This is not the case today because gaming is big money. No entity is willing to take the risk to step outside the box because in the last five years many have and failed miserably at doing so.
WOW, the phenomenon, good or bad, has set records for the entire scope of gaming, not just the MMO industry. I doubt any other game ever made will achieve this, not even Blizzards new entity they are working on. Every developer risking money and every board member putting up that money as an investment wants to see results. Therefore, you follow what has worked and we get nothing but hard WOW copies. The days of innovative risk are over and we must face this fact and deal with it or move on as I have. I miss playing a MMO but there is nothing for me to play. In the light of this economic disaster we face and our country and government pushing us into bankruptcy, the risk takers will be far less than ever imagined.
Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box. ~ Italian proverb
Sorry Sonic but I think your full of crap. MMO's are more popular today than they have ever been, they are far from dead. There are more people playing and paying for them than ever before. Once again far from dead. There is more money in there than ever before, which is why there are more and more developers wanting a peice of that than ever before. Again far from dead. There is absolutely nothing to inidicate that MMO's are dead.
It is merely that MMO's are dead for you.
There is a difference in the risk of older games versus today's games. What we considered good back in the days of EQ, UO and Daoc only cost a few million and to makes. Getting a few hundred thousand players was a phenomenal success. The profit they got from that few hundred thousand more than offset the development costs.
Today a good game must have good graphics, lots of choices, mounts, flights, pve, pvp (of many different types, world, area, instanced). They must have zillions of quests. A good game today costs 50-100 million to make. That is far too much risk to get the same numnber of subscribers as the old games add, a few hundred thousand if your lucky. The numbers just don't add up.
Games need to change: Money invested versus return just doesn't add up anymore. Or gamers need to change and expect a few cuts on what they consider good.
Venge Sunsoar
I think it's premature to run around going "the sky is falling". Business isn't like government. It (business) only goes with what works, or it eventually dies! Having said that, thats when you get in the dangers of WoW copying, because it DOES work. but how many WoW clones can there be out there?
If we, the gamers, decide not to play the WoW clones, then the devs and the businesses will get the message sooner or later.
I agree with the OP's comments. It's time for something new. So lets see if the devs and corporations get the message....
Once the majority of gamers lower their standards and accept everything we accepted back in the 90s, MMOs will be good again. See what I did there? People say those who started with WOW don't know any better. Well, I think people who started with UO didn't know any better either. They're stuck in a time warp. In reality people are far more informed now than they ever were when all you had to choose from was UO or EQ, much less the abomination called AC. Millions of new gamers out there since 2004-05 and none of them have even bothered playing older MMOs. Its not like its difficult to play or find them all, with free trials, lots of websites and forums all touting them as "da bestest". Maybe people don't want to play them because by todays standards they're just not very good anymore. Fancy that!!! Older games aren't quite as good as newer games.
So everyone playing WOW is stupid for enjoying it, right? The masses are dumb? Are all the critics are dumb too, because they praise WOW as well. So everyone is dumb except a certain few who really know what makes a good MMO? Popular entertainment isn't always great, but there are exceptions and WOW is one of them. There's just no way to deny it. Everything that makes a good MMO, WOW has. Everything people actually care about that is.
Yes, the MMO industry is dead for some people. Unfortunately, those people don't matter anymore. I'll freely admit no MMO has come out since WOW that holds a candle to it. Older MMOs did do certain things better, esspecially from a comunity standpoint, but it was more due to the actual players. The game had nothing to do with it. The tools are the same.
Theres nothing stopping anyone from making a MMO now. All you need are artists, programmers, world designers and the money to pay them all. Go ahead and make your dream MMO. Just don't expect someone ELSE to do it and put THEIR money on the line. If you have an idea thats full proof and so much better than everything out there, theres nothing stoppoing you from putting together a business plan, walking in the doors of a publisher and pitching the idea. Of course, you'll need something functional to show them. Some chicken scratch on a page or some kid explaining how he knows everything won't convince anyone to give you millions of dollars. It will take millions of dollars now. This isn't 1997. You can't make something decent in your garage. You see our standards are higher now than they were back then.
Since the budgets have risen so too has the required number of subscribers needed to keep the game running. The rules have changed. Get used to it.
Unfortunately I really do not think you read what I posted clearly enough. You could have also made a valid point without the insult but then again what more can I expect from the majority on this site anymore...
Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box. ~ Italian proverb
I agree with the general jist of what thE OP has said. The industry is currently far too risk adverse. Happens now and then in business, it seems. They are too afraid a big flop, so they don't want to take any risks. Hence the game they get is basically a copy of an already-existing game with tweaks here and there to the gameplay. Surprisingly, a lot of these games don't do very well in the long run, though I am not sure if they don't make a profit still.
It's probably because MMOs are expensive to make that companies are so risk adverse. A big flop would probably cost a TON of money, whereas a very modest success would make some money. Hence they go the easy route, mostly. That's certainly how it seems to me anyhow.
Your right Sonic. The insult was uncalled for and I apologize. I meant to say your hypothesis and not you.
Venge Sunsoar
The irony is that WoW-copied, linear gameplay is MORE risky than the immersion features --exploration, travel, customization, innovation, etc.-- that we so desperately desire.
They need to create more and copy less.
The irony is that WoW-copied, linear gameplay is MORE risky than the immersion features --exploration, travel, customization, innovation, etc.-- that we so desperately desire.
They need to create more and copy less.
It actually isn't more risky. There's a good chance if you make a move away from how WoW works, then you can fail horribly (because people don't like those changes). Crappy success is still success with copy-cats that only have trace innovation.
I'm not saying we aren't craving innovation, because we are. We don't want just any innovation though, it has to be done right. That's where the risk lies.
The irony is that WoW-copied, linear gameplay is MORE risky than the immersion features --exploration, travel, customization, innovation, etc.-- that we so desperately desire.
They need to create more and copy less.
It actually isn't more risky. There's a good chance if you make a move away from how WoW works, then you can fail horribly (because people don't like those changes). Crappy success is still success with copy-cats that only have trace innovation.
I'm not saying we aren't craving innovation, because we are. We don't want just any innovation though, it has to be done right. That's where the risk lies.
The greater the risk, generally speaking, the greater the reward.
I do not see innovation and creativity as necessarily that risky, though. I agree, and I think you are right, that it can be risky to be innovative because the ideas might not work.
The risk is well worth it, though.
The irony is that WoW-copied, linear gameplay is MORE risky than the immersion features --exploration, travel, customization, innovation, etc.-- that we so desperately desire.
They need to create more and copy less.
It actually isn't more risky. There's a good chance if you make a move away from how WoW works, then you can fail horribly (because people don't like those changes). Crappy success is still success with copy-cats that only have trace innovation.
I'm not saying we aren't craving innovation, because we are. We don't want just any innovation though, it has to be done right. That's where the risk lies.
The greater the risk, generally speaking, the greater the reward.
I do not see innovation and creativity as necessarily that risky, though. I agree, and I think you are right, that it can be risky to be innovative because the ideas might not work.
The risk is well worth it, though.
I agree, but I have no minions to order about and get an innovative game made.
Innovation requires some level of experimentation as well, which requires time, money, capital, people, and other resources.
The MMORPG company, however, that delivers an innovative product --an innovative MMORPG experience-- will reap some handsome benefits.
At least I think so.
Posts like these continue to spring up, but neglect a few sad truths.
We are the minority. I don't mean those that want a better game, I mean every person on this forum. The majority of MMO players, the ones that spend the majority of the money, will never see these posts.
The people have spoken, and WoW is what they want. Stop this mumbo jumbo garbage of "companies won't make money doing this or that..." They are making money; they are selling. You want something new, as do I. Hell, most of the people here want something new. We just don't know what.
You say to bring back the 3 Cs, but how? If you can't quantify it, developers cannot put it into a game, it's as simple as that. Stop saying you want something better, and start saying EXACTLY what you want. Your heart and mind are in the right place, and I am with you.
And just to add:
I would LOVE to see dynamic questing and mob populations, something that actually responded to my impact on the game. That would draw me in, that would be a Creative aspect to incorporate into a next-gen MMO.
A dyslexic man walked into a bra.